User talk:Doctor Papa Jones/Archive 8

List of Adolf Hitler's personal staff
I've done a new table which makes most columns sortable. It looks better than having four tables of varying lengths and widths. This new table is more list like. I've also added the rest of the images. But I think there needs to be more clarification on their role. You've listed Wilhelm Brückner for example as an adjutant in the Nazy party, but his article says he was Hitler's chief adjutant. Let me know what you think of the new table, and also clarify their roles a bit more. — ₳aron  20:41, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Calvin999, I like the new table and setting. I'm sure Kierzek does too. However, non-free images are not allowed to be used on lists. All the new images you added to the article are mostly images I uploaded for the purpose of use in the list, but I was instructed to remove them, therefore you must too. Besides that, I like it. Nice job. :) Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 20:47, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * And regarding Bruckner, he was chief adjutant of the adjutants representing the Nazi Party. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 20:51, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Why can't they be used if they are being used in their own articles already? Should Hitler's personal dog handler be included too? —  ₳aron  20:53, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * All I know is that Diannaa, who is an administrator here on the English Wikipedia, told me that non-free images must not be used in lists per WP:FL. Click here to see her exact words in my talk page archive. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 20:56, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Regarding Hitler's dog walker, I think you should be bold and go ahead and add all personal staff members you can add to the list now that it's all one table. Might add some myself. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 20:57, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not familier with this topic so i wouldn't really know who to add or where to get sources etc. All of the pictures are used in their respective articles, so I don't really see the issue. I'd just leave them there, and if anyone says anything, then remove them. —  ₳aron  21:00, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm going to add a one or two more in the future. I have gone ahead and removed all non-free images per my comments above. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 21:04, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The "dog handler", not known as the "dog walker" is a stretch; if more are added then there are one or two military ordinance officers which are not in the list. Otherwise it is about done, but for Constanze Manziarly, she should be added. As for "non-free/fair use" photos, that is the rule as Diannaa has stated. Kierzek (talk) 13:17, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree. Good job in finding Manziarly, Kierzek. I myself will include the administrator of the Berghof and his wife, who also served as a personal cook to Hitler soon. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:22, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Richard Schulze-Kossens is one of the Ordonnanz-offizier's for Adolf Hitler, I was talking about above. Kierzek (talk) 15:19, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

I've expanded the lead as it was a bit short and didn't really cover what was in the table. Aside from that, I think it's good to nominate for FLC again now. I don't think there is much more we can add. I thought maybe dates of births and deaths but perhaps that would be a bit too much. — ₳aron  15:43, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Well done, but I don't think we should mention specific staff members and their years of service. What do you think, Kierzek? Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 16:13, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought about that and was mulling it over when you wrote the above; I don't believe we need to do so. Kierzek (talk) 16:17, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You have to introduce what the list is in the lead. I've promoted enough lists to FL to know how to structure one. —  ₳aron  16:24, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't for a second doubt your skills in writing good lists, Calvin999, but if both me and Kierzek are in favor of something opposite your opinion, it should it be done that way per WP:CON. If you profoundly disagree, I suggest we take it to the talk page and ask for a range of opinions from many other editors, although I think they would agree with me and Kierzek. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 16:40, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Look at this Featured List: List of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves recipients (1943); it does not mention all the names of the men who won the Knights Cross with Oak Leaves for that year or any details of how they won the medal; only information as to specific members due to questions and conditions; with that said, if consensus could be achieved, I would be willingly to agree to mention of the named person grouped in their sections accordingly (without the verbiage after each name); think about it. Kierzek (talk) 16:47, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I haven't mentioned all the names in his staff, only some. It would be like me trying to do List of songs recorded by Ariana Grande without mentioning any songs she has recorded. Same principle applies here. I asked Jonas if he would like help to get this to FL, considering the last one was withdrawn and was hardly without problems, and he accepted. I'm trying to do that, but you keep on going against me, like keeping on removing the links when from past experience of seven FLC's has told me that you are link throughout the table, because when you sort one of the columns, the first link may not be linked. —  ₳aron  16:58, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you are talking about as to "going against" anyone. I was asked to help Jonas long ago and have been doing so ever since then; I never said "all" in my comments, see above. I mentioned an example above as to how names are used in a featured article. Ironically, I was just adding the links back in when you did it; even though it would be over-linking for an article, I see, after review of the featured list I linked above, all services are to be linked for a list; so be it. The fact is the lede is still not that well written and a few more people need to be added in, as I mention above. So relax and lets work together. Kierzek (talk) 17:08, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You keep removing the linkage from the table and you're saying well done for expanding the lead but it's not needed. You example you've given doesn't mention specific names, but it has a decent two paragraph lead, which is what I've done for this article. This article has less info, so it has to draw upon the names instead. The table is a list of his personal staff, that means the lead needs to provide a summary of who some of his staff were, that's what the whole article is about. Maybe I'm just getting the wrong end of the stick, but it sounded like you was saying that no names need to be mentioned because you're example doesn't, and now you're saying more names need passing to the lead? —  ₳aron  17:11, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * User:Calvin999, I think you're overthinking this. Your edits, such as making it all one table and expanding the lead, are very appreciated. In completely honesty, I prefer it that way. However, it's worth noticing that a bunch of comments and ideas for improving the list was left in the FLC page, and there it was decided the lead should mention what it meant to be employed in Hitler's staff. Like, did you have access to huge personal gain because of your daily interaction with Hitler? Did you become close friends with Hitler? What were your daily duties etc. Lastly, I can see the point in mentioning specific songs in a list about all the songs of an artist, but think it's different here. Please don't think we're "going against you". Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 17:16, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Calvin: to be clear, the link to services is a moot matter. Also, I said for consensus I would agree the names can be kept in the lede. The problem is the verbiage after what names are included. What needs to be added is some details as to the different service duties. Also what I meant as to additional names as you phase it, is some further people need to be added in the main body of the list; like I mention above. Kierzek (talk) 17:26, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with Kierzek; I have a small mental list of one or two extra people who needs to be added, and I don't think we should complete or further expand the lead before all, or at least all we can find, is included. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 17:29, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

For example of what I believe is needed in the lede: "Others who formed part of his entourage were valets Hans Hermann Junge, Karl Wilhelm Krause, and his longest serving valet, Heinz Linge. They accompanied him on his travels and were in charge of Hitler's daily routine; including awaking him, providing newspapers and messages, determining the daily menu/meals and wardrobe." Kierzek (talk) 17:38, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

If I may I want to share some advice from my experience with Wiki lists. Over-linking is generally accepted and even wanted, especially when the list is sortable. The order of elements on a sortable list can be somewhat arbitrary depending on the sequence of clicks on the sort button. This is not under control of the editor; therefore over-linking is desired to make sure that independent of the sort sequence the reader has the choice to click on the appropriate link. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 17:44, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. :) Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 17:46, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I already knew and said that! —  ₳aron  18:58, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * We need to add: Wilhelm Burgdorf. And what about others, still; it can be a slippery slope, for example, what do you guys think about: Theodor Morell, Ludwig Stumpfegger and Werner Haase? Kierzek (talk) 19:15, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You're absolutely right, Kierzek, the list still needs at least 5-7 people. I have to go out for an hour or two, but will do my best to complete the list later tonight. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 19:21, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Good, I will review it once it is done. Kierzek (talk) 22:12, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Kierzek, I have added all the rest I could and added sources to them all. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 22:37, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay, I tweaked the lede along the lines I mentioned above and did some ce work. You guys see what you think. Kierzek (talk) 13:16, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I like it. I was going to suggest a new lead wording, but it pretty much mirror yours. I'm in favor. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:27, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Given the list requirement, should not the service listing for "Army" be changed and linked to: (German Army (Wehrmacht)|Army) for each one and separately the Navy one linked to Kriegsmarine, as well? Kierzek (talk) 14:06, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * How right you are. I've made edits accordingly. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 15:26, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

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Reference Errors on 20 March
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Comments on Barbarossa
Hi, I noticed that you put the article up for GA-review after some intensive copy editing. The article in its current state makes uses of many different sources. I can't say whether you do or don't, but I expect that an editor who puts an article up for GA review, has actually had access to or has collaborated with other editors who have access to the various sources used in this article. Why am I saying this? Assuming in the review process (or later) you had accepted a pre-existing reference in good-faith, however in reality (for whatever reason), the reference is incorrect. Subsequently I, as a reader or reviewer of the article, have to assume that you as the GA-editor are lying to me. Again, I am not saying you are, but you will or might have to justify the state of the article if questioned. The onus in a review will be for you to prove that what is written in the article can be verified and is correctly cited. Having said that, I hope you are prepared. Good luck with the article. MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:59, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. :) Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 11:32, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi Jonas, to be honest, I largely disagree with your statement. An article like Operation Barbarossa receives north of 70k hits per month, that is the same order of magnitude the Erwin Rommel articles sees. In my experience here on Wiki, this sandbox behavior has been the cause of various edit wars. Again, you have to make your own experience, and every article is a case by case situation, but be aware it can go the wrong way. MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:24, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:German soldier on guard at the Atlantic Wall, 1944.gif
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Fighter pilots
Have you seen Lists of flying aces? Is this what you were thinking of? MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:26, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

GA Review image issue
At Talk:Deanna Merryman/GA1 which you ultimately promoted to WP:GA quality, you helpfully recommended to add magazine cover images.

One of those is up now for deletion, at.

Could use your thoughts on that.

Thank you,

&mdash; Cirt (talk) 16:17, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yea, saw you pinged and me and I threw in a keep vote. Cheers, Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 16:19, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Perhaps keep an eye on it, may need more in-depth discussion than just that, and would be helpful to have more participation from the GA Reviewer, if necessary? &mdash; Cirt (talk) 16:23, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I've added a longer explanation for my keep vote. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 16:31, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you, and agreed. :) &mdash; Cirt (talk) 16:37, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Nomination of Sleeping illness for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Sleeping illness is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Sleeping illness until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.


 * Hi, since you are the creator, I wanted to let you know that I have nominated the article for deletion. I believe that it is original research to give this condition a name and identify it as a separate illness, and that the relevant information can be merged with the article on the village. P. S. Burton  (talk)  18:59, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Sleeping Illness
Please stop deleting my work. I've been working hard on it because I'm doing it for a college project. I have good sites and have written a lot more than the five sentences you keep changing it to. Srhesler29 (talk) 16:45, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Srhesler29, as I explained on your talk page, you have removed the sources I added and replaced them with sources the Wikipedia project regards as WP:OR, which is not acceptable. Secondly, the new information you added is not written in line with WP:MOS. Thirdly, It doesn't really matter whether or not you are doing this for a college project or not, as that is not what Wikipedia is about (WP:NOT). Lastly, the article will be deleted in a few days (or even sooner) so it seems to matter no more. Regards, Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 17:53, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Adolf Hitler's 50th birthday
The article Adolf Hitler's 50th birthday you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold. The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See Talk:Adolf Hitler's 50th birthday for things which need to be addressed. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Calvin999 -- Calvin999 (talk) 12:21, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

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File:German soldier on guard at the Atlantic Wall, 1944.gif listed for deletion
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Kershaw
Hi. Sorry for removing Kershaw. I did not see your intermediate edit, while I was moving names around in the cite templates. P. S. Burton (talk)  17:48, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * No problem. :) Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 17:49, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

File:Most adorable kitten on plant earth, Meow Meow!.jpg listed for deletion
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Barnstar for You!
Congrats. Kierzek (talk) 17:13, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks buddy. :) Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 22:32, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Adolf Hitler's 50th birthday
The article Adolf Hitler's 50th birthday you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Adolf Hitler's 50th birthday for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Calvin999 -- Calvin999 (talk) 16:01, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks Calvin999. :) Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 22:35, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Good job guys. Kierzek (talk) 13:50, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Happy to help out at Barbarossa

 * Dear Jonas. I would be pleased to assist in the improvement of the article. I have some good sources, and I write ok. Keep up the good work! I will catch up on latest developments on talk. Its good to see the concept of an unwinnable attritional front which I added to the lede of World War II some months ago when I revamped it has been echoed here. Kind regards Irondome (talk) 23:58, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Dear Irondome, I appreciate you offering your help and I would very much appreciate any help I can get, as bringing Barbarossa to GA-status will be a huge task. The two biggest problems right now is replacing the two self-published sources cited in the article. It's pretty late at my end of the world right now, so I won't be on Wikipedia until tomorrow (my tomorrow), but be bold and edit away to fix these problems if you can—you have my support. :) I'll check back in on the article and its talk page tomorrow. Kind regards, Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 00:20, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I am in london, Jonas, so our time zones are not so different ;). Of course I will assist, with pleasure. I may do a couple more edits then the bed must call, Will check back with you tomorrow. Gut nacht! Irondome (talk) 00:24, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject Eurovision Cup - April 2015
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Julius Schaub
Hello Jonas Vinther, nice work improving that article. Just as a quick note, WikiProject Germany uses the checklist system for B-class assessment: updating to B-class, a list of b1 - b5 parameters as "=y" needs to be added to set the class (I completely agreed in this case and have added the parameters for you at Talk:Julius Schaub). Information about WPGER assessment criteria and the B-checklist can be found at WikiProject Germany/Assessment - you can also request another editor's review there, if you have been a main contributor to an article and want a second opinion about it. Best regards. GermanJoe (talk) 07:02, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for coming to my talk page and explain this in detail. :) Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 10:51, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

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Orphaned non-free image File:Yugoslav submarine Nebojša.png
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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Peripitus (Talk) 20:33, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I can see that a higher resolution version is here though there unfortunately they don't credit the source. It is possible it is public domain but a source is needed to show this - Peripitus (Talk) 20:37, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Peripitus, please go ahead and delete my uploaded photo altogether; I was not aware of the other, enlarged picture in question when I made the upload. Cheers, Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 21:09, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Latest "sandbox" project
What is the intent of the article; an overview of security and assassination attempts? Just curious. Kierzek (talk) 14:13, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Kierzek, the artilce is far from finished. The article is meant to explain the structure of Hitler's bodyguard. I have excellent sources which contain a welth of info on everything related to Hitler's bodyguard. I've been planning on doing it for a while actually and expect to be semi-finish tonight. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:15, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Okay. I have done quite a lot of work on several "bodyguard" articles you may want to look at, including: SS-Begleitkommando des Führers, later known as the Führerbegleitkommando; the Begleitkommando-SS and the Reichssicherheitsdienst. Two books I would recommend are: Felton, Mark, "Guarding Hitler: The Secret World of the Führer" (2014) and the older, Hoffmann, Peter, "Hitler's Personal Security: Protecting the Führer 1921-1945" (2000) [1979]. Felton's book is more up-to-date. And Kershaw has some good general information, as well. Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 14:22, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Like always, I was gonna' ask you have a look-see with the intention of some copy edits and thoughts for improvements. Thanks for the information, I'll be sure to look at related bodyguard articles and the books you mentioned. Cheers :) Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:26, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

No problem :). Do have a look at the Führer Begleit Brigade and 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler articles, as well. Kierzek (talk) 14:31, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

German invasion plans
Regarding this edit, it should be clarified somewhere – in the table or the paragraphs – that only two of those territorial administrations were realized. It's the logical next-question a reader will ask when they read that section. Also, both cited sources explicitly mention that information, so finding references for it is not problem. An em dash could just be interpreted to mean that there is no available maps for those other three. What do you think? EyeTruth (talk) 18:40, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
 * EyeTruth, you're totally right. We would have to include some kind of a note to mention that the other territories were not realized if we decide on dash - I did not think of this when I replaced the words with dash. Good point, I have reverted those edits. :) Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 00:50, 4 April 2015 (UTC)