User talk:Dominic.sedghi

Murder/manslaughter
Welcome to Wiki! I am glad that we have this opportunity to discuss matters now that you have registered. The editorial decisions reflect the structure of the page and the particular context where the insertion or deletion was made. In the general contextual introduction, there is an element headed "Murder and other killings== where manslaughter is identified as the general alternative to murder when the mens rea for the killing is insufficient to constitute murder (if you follow the links, you will then get into manslaughter and the various mens rea elements). In the English section, the list is clearly headed "murder" not homicide which would permit the inclusion of manslaugher (albeit that it would be redundant given the prior explanation). Now let us hypothesises a set of facts: A drives a car at B intending to injure but not kill but B, being slow of foot, is unable to move out of the way sufficiently and suffers GBH, later dying in hospital. The RTA offence, unlike manslaughter (motor or otherwise), is not an alternative verdict to a murder charge so would have to be separately charged initially so that the jury could convict to reflect whichever offence they thought was appropriate given their finding on whether the mens rea was sufficient for murder. Hence, for definitional purposes, it is appropriate to mention dangerous drive in a list headed "murder". Similarly, the U.S. states variously describe the murder/manslaughter continuum as murder one/two/felony manslaughter/manslaughter. It is appropriate to discuss this distinctive use of terminology as a part of the country-based explanation of murder rather than in the general introduction (although I agree that the detail on manslaughter duplicates the material on the linked page). Since you obviously have some understanding of criminal law, I would value another hand in upgrading the general standard. I have been working alone for the last month or so but cannot do it all to an even standard. In any event, I have been asked to start contributing to another area of law so if you are interesting in taking over from me, I can get on with the next task. If you are a joiner and a qualified lawyer, you can add youself to the list at: Category:Wikipedian lawyers. You will also find lists of things to do and other people working in the law pages at WikiProject_Law. David91 01:52, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * David – thanks for replying! I certainly see your point of view and, I agree, from a technical perspective, manslaughter offences should not strictly be encompassed in a murder article.  Rather than the particular content which irked me, it was the combination and contradiction inherent in the article.  The American system of voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter is, in all but case law and minor technicalities, identical to the English law offences.  Voluntary manslaughter is an alternative charge to murder where mitigating circumstances are such as to form a "partial defence" to the murder charge.  (Of course, as you will be aware, this is not truly a 'defence' but a consciencious effort by the courts to create a sort-of 'Murder One'/'Murder Two' split as in other common law systems.  Involuntary manslaughter requires no malice aforethought and the requisite circumstances (i.e. a constructive offence or gross negligence).  Thus, to include some of these offences for one jurisdiction but not for another does create a discrepancy in the article.  (In fact, other jurisdiction sections also include this split.)


 * Secondly, you are correct, causing death by dangerous driving is not an alternative charge to murder. However, it is a separate offence from murder and certainly is not a 'murder' in the true sense (it does not require malice aforethought).  In fact, if a driver, A, were to hit and kill a person, B, intending to kill them or do them GBH, they could be charged with murder.  (In reality, an offence of causing death by dangerous driving is used because it is a lot easier to prove – no mens rea need be shown.  The length of sentence is set off against the ease of prosecution.)  However, not being a murder offence, this offence should not strictly be included in the murder article.  (Strictly, infanticide is not a murder offence either and should not be included.)


 * The only true 'murder' offence is murder per se. I think one of two approaches has to be taken for this article.  Either 'murder' is used in the strictly legal sense, in which case only the 'murder' offence is relevant (and arguably voluntary manslaughter).  Otherwise, a more lay approach should be taken, treating murder as "killing" but concentrating on the technical offence, with references to manslaughter.  I favour the latter.  In reality, the typical person not educated in the law will not be able to pinpoint the difference between manslaughter and murder, and will most likely come to the murder page first.


 * My conclusion, therefore. It is not appropriate to refer to manslaughter offences in one jurisdiction but not in another.  It is not appropriate to exclude some non-murder offences (manslaughter) but include others (death by dangerous driving; infanticide).  Wikipedia is a general encyclopaedia, not a legal book.  Therefore, the 'murder' article should be written for a lay person and establish the distinction between manslaughter and 'murder proper' within.  Let me know what you think.


 * At the moment I am a trainee solicitor (not criminal), although criminal law was consistently one of my better (and favourite!) disciplines. As such, I won't presume to override your experience as it seems you must have been well-versed in the legal world!  However, I would love to contribute where I can, especially if you are under some pressure at the moment to do too many articles!  (Perhaps we should reach a consensus on this article first? ;-) ) Dominic.sedghi 17:53, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. Only just noticed this. I do not monitor other people's talk pages. I have several hundred pages that I monitor for content and that is enough. As I said above, it is good to have new blood and I would always value your opinion. It is all so fresh in your mind whereas mine fails. Also, you should not feel inhibited. The slogan over the door here is, "Be bold". As you have observed, I am spread thin here, so since you have the expertise, write something or change a page for the better. Do not wait for me. David91 17:20, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Homicide Act
Most curious to come back to this since I graduated before it became law and watched the debate over how it should be drafted. Later, I actually because a drinking partner with one of the barristers from the Craig and Bentley defence team (I am full of redundant information today). I tried to preserve the spirit of what you had written but make it a bit more encyclopaedic. You were very lawyerly (as you should be) whereas we need a slightly more common touch so that lay readers are not immediately turned off. I am frequently obscure because I fail to recognise how much I take for granted (and because I think so slowly these days) and so neglect to fill in the gaps in the expositions I write, so I welcome other people reading what I write for sense (and accuracy, of course). I hope you will understand the spirit in which my revision is offered and not be deterred from creating many more pages. You could try the Public Order or sexual offences. They are on my to-do list. All the best. David91 10:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Welcome
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