User talk:Dominic/Mediation/General discussion

This is now a subpage transcluded here. You can either just use section editing and edit below or go to User talk:Dmcdevit/Mediation/General discussion, or User talk:Dmcdevit/Mediation for all of it. Dmcdevit·t 03:17, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I made subsections just for coherence. I just arbitrarily made up the heading names, and they're only supposed to be explanatory. Dmcdevit·t 03:09, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

List of companies in the PRC
Ever since the article was unprotected, the have been contests on which of the two disputed versions should be displayed. The displayed version throughout the protection period was chosen based on what the old title of the list and what the list was intended for before all those disputes. User:SchmuckyTheCat and user:Huaiwei have refused to keep that version displayed, and have insisted to display the version that they prefers. I'd like to hear from your advice on what I should do. Thanks. &mdash; Instantnood 16:31, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I would just like to take this opportunity to point out (for the sake of balance in arguments), that moments after Instantnood was nominated for a 3RR violation, he has taken to re-igniting past disputes through a variety of pages, most of which he listed above for your reference. Most of these pages will show that he was the first editor who triggered the latest rounds of edit warring, and even after the rounds of reverts, he has not seen it neccesary to conduct any form of discussion on them. I certainly do hope that he would accept your suggestions for conducting proper dispute resolution, instead of habitually relying on edit warring.--Huaiwei 17:20, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks so much Dmcdevit. In fact Huaiwei, SchmuckyTheCat and I have been talking, here and there, nearly everyday throughout the past few months. There was never any middle ground between Huaiwei and I, and we kept being stuck in arguing on this and that, from the definitions of country, around the term mainland China, to the spellings of Macao/Macau. I appreciate you're going to help us and help Wikipedia, but frankly, I remains pessimistic towards the possibility of reaching a true resolution. The lists of companies and airports are the best examples that the other party is not even willing to armistice, and have insisted to keep their prefer version displayed. They are not even hearing my rationale (to display a version according to what the articles were intended for and were like before the disputes and contentious edits), that has worked with the list of railways in China and national dish. &mdash; Instantnood 21:34, 8 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Let's take the lists of airports and railways as examples to illustrate. This is the version prior to the contentious edits by Huaiwei and SchmuckyTheCat, and this is the version that was chosen to be displayed, according to my policy (compare). In another example, the list of railways, this is the version prior to the edits  that I've made and Huaiwei and SchmuckyTheCat doesn't agree, and this is the version that I've displayed (compare).  Both articles involve the inclusion of the items of Hong Kong. The airport list started under the title "list of airports in Mainland China", and included airports in mainland China only . The railway lists started under the title "list of railways in China", with Hong Kong included . For the first list I didn't include Hong Kong in the displayed version, and for the second one I kept Hong Kong.  I believe I've done all these firmly according to my policy, and have done more than enough to showing impartialness when choosing a version to be displayed. I don't have to do what I have done with the list of railways in China, national dish and Electronic Road Pricing if I were insisting to display my preferred versions like they do.  And, for your information, I have also approached user:Thryduulf, who was responsible for protecting the lists of companies and airports last time. (Please response on my talk page. Thanks.) &mdash; Instantnood 22:10, 8 October 2005 (UTC)


 * This isn't about an armistice. It's about keeping the wikipedia open. When 'nood requests page protection that lasts for a month simply to keep his own edits (or whatever edits, really, it doesn't matter) it ignores the rest of the community. Page protection is not there to maintain a status quo. It's a wiki, and articles change. If his choices and preferences aren't maintained by the community then his duty is to go to the community to gain concensus, and not to appeal to administrative authority to protect his POV. SchmuckyTheCat 22:10, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * (reply) re: Dispute resolution. There is an ArbCom case.  It's stale, because ArbCom sees the majority of it as content disputes.  I've been involved in plenty of edit wars with him, as have dozens of other people.  Here's the pattern 1) edit war 2) game a 3RR 3) slap twoversions template up 4) request page protection.  There are people who agree with him on some POV issues, but all of those people are willing to discuss.  He doesn't.  He lawyers the "rules".  When even the dispute is stale (like several months since anyone discussed it) he'll revert war just to protect the template which references the dispute - instead of going to the community (including those that agree with him) to ask for concensus. It's apparently his goal to simply be a one-man block to community editing if it disagrees with him. SchmuckyTheCat 22:48, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Huaiwei and STC summaries
I usually would respond in my talk page, but I will make an exception here just to keep the discussion in one place for convenience sake.

As STC points out above, and what instantnood admits too, "discussions" do exist, and has been so for the past 10 months. Unfortunately, it is apparant no one is willing to move from their stated positions, probably because the underlying issue is one we holds rather "dearly"? Still, I have noticed all these while, that instantnood has been far from being forthright in revealing his motivations here, perhaps for fear of the expected backlash it is going to create. It is plain obvious, however, that it all begins and is still centered over the status of Hong Kong on the international arena.

Instantnood viewpoint (at least based on what he has said over the past months, and from his editing histories and patterns), is that Hong Kong should be listed distinct from the People's Republic of China, be it in the form of a country list, in the form of articles (he insists on one article for HK, and the other for the "rest of China" aka "Mainland China"), in the form of categories, or even stub templates and so on. It has been noted, that his entry into wikipedia using his current username appears too sophisticated to be a newbie. I first waged war with an anonymous user for about a month or two over how airports should be listed in Category:Airline destinations's articles, insisting that HK should appear distinct from the PRC. This person dissapeared, and instantnood appeared, basically advocating exactly the same thing. This tussle quickly spread to other pages, with basically the same phenomena.

My view, as I openly declared in my user page (User_talk:Huaiwei), has been that I am highly suspicious of anyone attempting to challenge Chinese sovereignty over all its territory, including exagerating the political status of an entity beyond what can be considered acceptable. While I openly state my position consistently over the past months, instantnood avoids doing so, often choosing to revert when I revert his edits, or when I subsequently went ahead and simply started modifying the way HK is presented. After much effort, it finally came to the fore, that he admits calling Hong Kong a country, "using the definitions as specified in list of countries": User_talk:Vsion, User_talk:Instantnood/Archive_3

The rest of the associated arguments starts to fall in place, because they are mostly related. The big fight over the status and usage of Mainland China is related to the fact that Instantnood wants to use it, so that Hong Kong will be listed seperately, compared to the term People's Republic of China which would have included Hong Kong. Of course, instantnood never admits to this motive when arguing intently for its use, but the edit patterns are quite clear beyond reasonable doubt.

We argued for months over whether Hong Kong is just one city or composed of many, just because instantnood wants to keep List of cities and towns in Hong Kong in List of city listings by country. Ditto for List of cities and parishes in Macao. And when the arguments over the so-called "cities of Hong Kong" hots up, another major fight breaks out over whether Victoria City is a "capital city" of Hong Kong or not.

Most other arguments are merely over how Hong Kong should appear in articles (from anything as diverse as Value added tax to List of cathedrals), although they start to accumulate into yet another debate over whether Hong Kong is a dependency or not (because Instantnood is quite desperate about keeping it in List of countries, a list which includes dependencies). After rounds of cat fights which was (kind of) settled only after User:Vsion sent an email to the HK government asking if HK is a dependency and was told simply that HK is an SAR (which Instantnood then attempts to dismiss), list of countries suddenly evolves into one which includes places of "special sovereignty". Almost overnight, instantnood drops the debate over Hong Kong's status as a dependency, and has never uttered about it since.

Like a constant "side show", war is still being waged over the categorisation system. Having fought (and lost) several content wars, instantnood, while helping to build a categorising system for Hong Kong, conveniently took the time to basically dis-engage as many HK-related articles from Chinese ones as he can, and dilligently adds as many of these articles to country-relevant categories as possible.

On a side note, there has been several disputes more related to "local pride" then anything else. Such as the fights over whether Cantonese or Mandarin page titles should be used. Over whether food served in one place is similar to another. Over the order in which chinese scripts should be listed. Sometimes, the arguments simply bother on the edge of ridiculousness. The debate over Hong Kong-style milk tea was particularly interesting.

And so he adds Cathay Pacific as a "national airline", which I later removed (nothing officially states that the airline is a flag carrier of any kind). Argues that the Hong Kong Central Library is a "national library", which I demanded for documentary proof and which non was forth coming. Calls the Flag of Hong Kong a National flag, even thou it is officially known as a regional flag. (Btw, just noticed an offensive entry in National emblem. hehe) National dish became another hot playground, over whether Hong Kong should be listed seperately, and what dish should appear on it. "Abuses" the Requested moves to get Hong Kong representative football team renamed back to Hong Kong national football team (people usually ask for votes for a move, not for a move to be undone).

As we speak, something as casual as National pastime becomes a hotseat, when its relevant Talk:National pastime has reached 38 kilobytes long as at the time of writing this, over something which should have been discussed long ago...just what, then, is a country. Observe the to and fro responses made. Concurrently going on, is another long essay writing session in Talk:List of official languages by state, which started off as yes another presentation dispute before evolving into one over just what a "language" really is.

In the earlier stages of this dispute, forms of "discussions" did take place, but often collapses into an endless to-and-fro trading of comments with no real signs of anyone willing to come to any form of agreement. By what instantnood says above, it is clear, that he has taken this failure to therefore skip the discussion process and to simply proceed to conduct edits. Occasionally, he feigns ignorance, claiming he didnt even think his edits were "contentious", like how he claims he "didnt know" there was a spelling disagreement over Macau/Macao Category_talk:Railway_stations_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.

The above is my rumbling summary of 10 months worth of disputes, but I hope the gist of the arguments is relatively clear. In the end, strong POVs over political issues spills over into related topics, although they rarely stray very far from it. I all along believe it all boils down to differing political viewpoints, but it takes two hands to clap. Instantnood has been unwilling to admit that he has a political viewpoint, perhaps for fear that it will greatly weaken his standing and his room for "squeezing and twisting" around here. But if he continues to pretend that he has no political viewpoint, then how can dispute resolution begin?

In any form of dispute resolution, there has to be a give and take situation. I have constantly asked him....how much is he willing to give up for the sake of establishing a middle ground, and I clearly remember him saying "certain things" are not within discussion because "there's always something that you cannot surrender" a very long time agoUser_talk:Mailer_diablo/Archive_B. He further insists that "non-locals" will "never be as familiar as the locals", and should accord due "respect" to locals. I found such comments highly immature, and gives a good clue of just how stubborn he is at heart. I suppose we dont need much guessing as to just what that "something" which he cannot surrender is?

Hong Kong's position in the world, of couse.

I know my text is long, and I apologise for this, but I do hope the above text could at least give you a (admittedly biased) quick overview of what has happened thus far. Nothing is beyond hope, and nothing cannot be resolved, if all parties are serious, committed, and believe it can happen. I believe it can happen. Perhaps now we just have to wait for Instantnood to realise it can happen too?--Huaiwei 00:19, 9 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Huaiwei hits something on the head, which we've both brought up repeatedly in other disputes. Instantnoods problems aren't with content.  They are with presentation [read the text of the footer in this edit .  There are lots and lots of good editing going on when editors conflict over nationalism and religion.  Lots of international issues turn into wikipedia flareups with POV - and the best way to combat POV is to present all POV. Instantnood goes straight for the things that bind wikipedia together though, because it's a battle for him to present Hong Kong to be as independent as possible.  So his presentation battles go towards categories, stub-sorting, templates, and article titleing - ie, things we can only have one of.
 * You also asked him if his use of twoversions is permanent or temporary. I think I have an answer to that.  Two, actually.  First answer, for the template, is that it would be temporary as long as he gets his way (that's an answer only half in jest.)  The second answer is that there is something more subtle than that as well.  He does intend to use that template in order to present his parallel versions of articles - a schizoprenic wikipedia.  Besides the twoversions templates, he has a series of articles in his userspace User:Instantnood/Sandbox where he "preserves" his versions.  Totally acceptable, of course.  However, for a while he made a blatant play to present his alternatives and link to them from the main wikipedia article namespace  (notice how he simultaneously plays belligerent "I'll add it back now" and ignorant "Nothing says I can't!").  I'd contend that the twoversions template is just another method for him to maintain a parallel article structure in his presentation style. SchmuckyTheCat 04:28, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Instantnood's response/summary and Huaiwei's response
My response would be succinct, with diff links whenever they're helpful. These are all content disputes, but it's more to do with behaviour of some wikipedians. Take the lists of companies and airports for example, user:Huaiwei and user:SchmuckyTheCat changed the scope and titles  of these two lists without any discussion, and has refused to restore them according to their original intent. They know well it's going to be contentious. SchmuckyTheCat has also moved some articles previously retitled "..mainland China" (e.g. education in mainland China ) by user:MarkSweep, now an administrator, again, without any discussion. I remain highly skeptical towards their willingness to reconcil on anything. While a long discussion has been in place at talk:list of official languages by country, fire was sparked at list of official languages. Huaiwei also spark fire at national pastime, although he knows it's debatable. Other articles, lists nad categories, to name a few, category:healthcare in Hong Kong, category:law enforcement in Hong Kong , category:law enforcement in Macau , and there are many more that I cannot name them all. Many articles specific to mainland China already exists before I joined Wikipedia in January, although by then most are titled "something in/of China", with some having a disambiguation notice telling readers the articles are about mainland, and provide links for readers to proceed to the articles on Hong Kong, Macao and ROC/Taiwan. It was not me who request for separate articles for mainland China and Hong Kong as Huaiwei has asserted. They already existed. Almost all categories titled "something in/of China" or "Chinese something" by then were mainland China-specific, until Huaiwei started making the Hong Kong and Macao counterparts subcategories of them. Yet he disagreed with moving the mainland China-specific content to categories titled "sth in/of mainland China". Contrary to his claims, territories with special statuses were on the list of countries at the early stage when it's created. What was suddenly evolved? The nationalflags template has been existed on flag of Hong Kong since February 29 2004, until removed by Huaiwei on  July 5 2005. This is again a pushing of his point of view that the word "national" is exclusive to sovereign states. Dmcdevit, I understand it can be tough for you to look into so many details of the conflicts spanning over nine months across so many entries. It has been so nice of you to be willing to help us. The above may perhaps be a tip of iceberg, and surely it will take tremendous amount of time and effort to have everything resolved. For the meantime, I'd suggest to start their switching to their preferred version at the lists of companies and airports. Thank you. &mdash; Instantnood 09:10, 9 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I am quite tempted to comment on instantnood's entry above, but maybe I will just let the urge past for now. Meanwhile, I would just like to indicate my full willingness to coorperate and to basically avoid adding/amending/deleting any article/category/stub/etc related to presentation issues related to Hong Kong/Macau; the spelling format of Macau/Macao, the use of People's Republic of China/Mainland China, etc, to allow negotiations to begin. To encourage compliance, I would also like to propose, that whoever breaks this commitment should receive disciplinary action in some way, perhaps in terms of a block or something.


 * I certainly hope that STC and instantnood may similarly agree to comply (and I do hope no one then quickly starts making funny edits before agreeing), although I suppose instantnood may find this a little too hard to do, since, as like what User:OwenX mentioned in Requests for adminship/Instantnood, instantnood's participation in wikipedia has more or less been on "one topic in which almost all his edits are" about.


 * Btw, I will attempt to give a more complete answer for the role of STC later...as I am kinda "mentally sapped" now. Hope you do not mind the delay, and once again, I must thank and commend you for your efforts here. Few administrators has been willing to take this up, and for good reason, and few has managed to come this far. It saddens me when admins give up, and I will give all I can in my hopes that your efforts will not be futile.--Huaiwei 16:09, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

About the "ceasefire"
 Sorry I did the revert before seeing your reply. Of course I'm most willing to stop the reverts. Yet it would be ridiculous for the other party to make such promise while insisting that their preferred version shall always prevail, and have successfully turned the pages to display their preferred versions at the present moment. Thanks again for your kind efforts. &mdash; Instantnood 10:13, 10 October 2005 (UTC)


 * re: cease-fire. Sorry I didn't answer earlier, I'm mulling.  I am somewhat interested in this.  It has been proposed before in a way I rejected entirely.  It probably makes me out to be not a team-player that I'm hesitant, doesn't it?  I suppose I can agree as long as progress is being made. If an edit has been sitting for awhile, it's not really going to hurt to leave it - though with his thousands of edits, I consistently run into things (often unexpectedly) that just scream.  And, I'll just back out if 'nood starts lawyering this, or if he starts creating new POV things and whines about being reverted under this gentlemans agreement.  If we have a no-revert agreement than the advantage is to the one that inserts the content, which he does faster than either Huaiwei or myself can even read. SchmuckyTheCat 01:00, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I can understand your concern, STC, hence my declaration above that I will not even ADD disputable content, and I hope all will comply too. This mean no one should add or remove HK from country lists for now. No one should modify the way it is being listed. As far as is humanely possible, lets avoid writting about Macau/Macao for now. Alternatively, we can have a more honest and transparant system to allow content to continue to flow: by having a page which we list all edits in which we feel may be potentially contentious, but have to be added for the time being for the sake of content expansion. For example, if we want to create a new article on a chuch in Macau, then go ahead and do it using whatever spelling prefered, but list this article also in that "tracking" page so that all of us know the author is not attempting to be "sneaky" and is doing out out of good faith. This helps to encourage responsible editing, and increase trust between members.


 * So if we are going to have this list, then perhaps may I also suggest that we create a single page for all related discussions on this issue (and for that list of articles),for the things to be ironed out, and a formal conclusion made in which all must abide by, failing which disciplinary action can be carried out by admins? I am not too sure of where or how this article should be located in, but I am open to anything to long that a single page can be easily retrived and reference to in any future dispute (because I have to note that it is possible for anyone else to appear and invoke the same kind of tussle if he happens to have the same political view).


 * What do you guys think of these suggestions?--Huaiwei 10:00, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

 I am most willing to comply, but I am afraid I have to say it is a bit meaningless to have things frozen as at the time being. Huaiwei and SchmuckyTheCat have insisted to display versions according to their preference, and have already done. This is already allowing them to be in a better position to agree with anything. As for what SchmuckyTheCat has said, I have no objection for Hong Kong categories to be subcategories of PRC or Chinese counterparts. I fully acknowledge the fact that Hong Kong's sovereignty is held by the PRC, so as Puerto Rico is to the United States, the Faroe Islands to Denmark, Åland to Finland, or Svalbard to Norway. What I objected was to group Hong Kong categories as subcategories of mainland China-specific categories, no matter their titles. When the situation is ambiguous, interwiki links between the categories is preferred, and has been done by some other wikipedians, such as user:Olivier, to a few categories that I have never edited. Since Huaiwei and SchmuckyTheCat have violently objected to use the term "mainland China", many mainland China-specific categories are left with the titled "something in/of China/the PRC" or "Chinese something". I talked about original intents because they reflect the view of other uninvolved editors. In any situation where there's a dispute between two parties, the best temporary solution is that both parties renounce putting their points of view to the disputed article, and let uninvolved third parties to decide. Everybody else's point of view, except for the two parties involved, should be reflected in the displayed version. I agree with Huaiwei's suggestion above. In fact I've bookmarked Wikipedia:centralised discussion and template:cent, and am planning to discuss out there and, possibily, to reach an ultimate resolution, when the ArbCom case is over, and the other parties have agreed to stop insisting to display their preferred versions. I believe this will provide the best foundations to have the conversations, and to facilitate inputs from the rest of the community who are familiar with the subject matter. &mdash; Instantnood 10:54, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, the fact is no one is in a better position as it is now. We still see plenty of objectionable content and presentation on both sides, so if we keep highlighting offensive articles and declaring the situation unfair, then how is this going to proceed? For every article you say is "frozen in a version STC and me prefer", there is another article I would love to revert over. Put this kind of feelings aside, for now, and see how things go.


 * Btw, I notice we have started talking about content here (with regards to categories) already. Its a good move, but lets wait till STC fully gets on in this project, and lets iron things out one at a time in the single discussion page, so that everyone's views can be heard.--Huaiwei 11:03, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree. As to the central location, I don't really mind. We could just make a subpage in my userspace, or did you have something else in mind? I also like your idea about content additions as well (since that's the impetus for reverting anyway) and had rather hoped that that was basically what would happen if everyone was making a good faith effort. All agree? Dmcdevit·t 18:00, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Hands up in agreement from me, and awaiting the go-ahead from the other parties involved. I am agreeable to the location of the subpage (not too important as of yet. We can consider implimenting it as part of conventions later). And dont worry too much about the "additions" thing for now too. All three of us need to volunteerily declare what we will not do before it does ahead, and we agree on a common threshold point. I cant be unitarily setting the benchmarks. Hope you guys can be more forthcoming? Thanks a million!--Huaiwei 21:47, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

 I don't mind making any sacrifice, except those that would be translated into the long end of the stick to the other party. I would highly appreciate if Huaiwei and SchmuckyTheCat were willing to voluntarily remove their points of view that have been implanted into the articles and categories during the contentious edits, i.e. to restore these articles and categories based on their original intent, no matter the original intent coincides with the position of any party. That would be a very good gesture to build mutual trust, which has been absent after several times of reverts to insist to display according to their preference. Without mutual trust I'm afraid it would be much harder to reach a resolution, and harder work for Dmcdevit to mediate. &mdash; Instantnood 22:04, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


 * To be brutally honest, I do not think this is the right attitude to adopt at all for a condusive environment to be created for dispute resolution. While asking for I and STC to "remove contentious edits", I wonder if you are expecting to do the same yourself? It is not exactly in good taste to expect others to conceed first before the process has even formally begun, and to use this as a condition before you would sit on the negotiation table. I do not think this is setting a healthy precedent at all.


 * I have to constantly emphasise. No one is in a better position at all now. None of us actually predicted that a potential for dispute resolution is sight in what started off as yet another one of your calls for an admin to "freeze" pages, so there is no basis to insist that anyone pre-planned anything. Beyond the few pages you asked to be reverted, both STC and I certainly do have an entire library of articles we wish to revert too. And if your original demands are met, are you then allowing STC and I to be placed on a stronger position to demand greater concessions on your part subsequently?--Huaiwei 22:54, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * No kidding. The total number of edits from Instantnood is probably two or three times the number of edits from Huaiwei and I put together - and that's kind of assuming Huaiwei and I would always agree (which we don't).


 * I've been really busy lately and only casually looking at things on my watchlist rather than spending time thinking of ways to answer you Dmcdevit. I think there was a specific question, and I'll go back and try and look at it later. For taking this to a centralized place - feel free to just make a subpage any old place thats convenient for you that doesn't crowd out other folks, cuz once going, we'll make a lot of noise. I might suggest that a free-for-all isn't going to be helpful.  You may want to sub-divide by a page with a section for each of us, and we can only answer questions from you and not respond to each other.


 * And Huaiwei, I await with baited breath I will attempt to give a more complete answer for the role of STC later. :)  SchmuckyTheCat 23:10, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

 (also a response to Huaiwei's comment at 22:54, October 11) Dmcdevit, if you can follow the edit history of the disputed entries (for those tagged with twoversions, special:whatlinkshere would be a useful tool), you may have already found out that I have always been sticking with my policy, that is, regardless of my point of view, I always restore these entries according to the original intent. There are articles that I have restored to a version that conincides with the point of view of Huaiwei and SchmuckyTheCat. Unlike them, who have been doing whatever they can to insist to display their preferred versions, I've never shown any insistence to display a version according to my own preference. I see it as an act to show my impartialness in turning edit warrings to temporary truce, and for this mediation may concern, this is to show that I don't want to be in any good position when agree or promise with anything. May I emphasise that I am only requesting Huaiwei and SchmuckyTheCat to do it voluntarily. This is not a prerequisite, but it's definitely a good gesture to build mutual trust. Do they refuse to do so, I would be more pessimistic towards the possibility in reaching anything in this mediation. I am sorry Dmcdevit to have kept you busy around us. &mdash; Instantnood 07:29, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

 From the past experience, no resolution has ever been reached in the last nine months. I understand all what you are requesting is temporary, nevertheless the whole mediation process can last for a long time, it is not in the benefits of other readers to display their preferred versions that deviate from the intent of the rest of community who has edited the same article. What I have requested is not prerequisite, but it will definitely show they are not insistence. If they strongly believe their POV is neutral, I could have said I believe mine is neutral too. I cannot understand why they are not willing to do what I have done (e.g., with the list of railways in China ( history )). &mdash; Instantnood 08:55, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

List of railways in China is a fine example. It's edit history is short and simple with less than fifty edits you can scan it on one page.
 * StC says:
 * Day 1
 * 1) User:Alanmak creates the article and does some fine tuning, he names it "List of railway in China"
 * 2) Another user performs a move, not to "mainland" or "PRC" but simply to pluralize railways. "China" appears to be good enough.
 * 3) Alanmak does minor edits
 * Further along
 * 1) Instantnood decides to change everything about the article., he removes Hong Kong, puts up a header that says it's only about the mainland, and changes the category. His edit summary is rather vague.
 * 2) Huaiwei reverts him ten minutes later, noting in the edit summary that the article is not limited to the mainland.
 * 3) 15 minutes later, Instantnood reverts Huaiwei with a snarky edit summary, then does another edit to place the twoversions tag on the article.
 * 4) 10 hours later, I move the template to the bottom of the article and state clearly the edit in the summary.
 * 5) 2 hours later, Alanmak returns, edits the Hong Kong link and states that it is not a mainland only article.
 * Over the next month
 * 1) At least three anons make edits, some of them significant. Two other named editors and Alanmak continue to make edits.  I make a non-significant copyedit.  Huaiwei extends the alphabetical sorting of the category.  Instantnood makes four edits, the only contribution to them being he takes the edits he likes and saves them, then reverts himself and updates the twoversions tag to point to his save - effectively twice updating his content fork.

The talk page for this article - blank. Nobody has even hit the edit button. To Instantnoods credit, he gave in right away and didn't edit war. However, he still attempted to change it to his POV until quickly slapped down by someone who wasn't Huaiwei or myself. He is still maintaining his POV fork. However he hasn't
 * attempted to justify why he even attempted to remove Hong Kong from the list
 * attempted to justify why he attempted to limit the article to one region
 * made any attempt to discuss why a twoversions template is appropriate here

And like all other articles where he has placed the twoversions template, the edit history is clear, the silent majority just goes on with the edits and ignores him and his disputes. Did any other editor of the half-dozen who have edited this article back him up or also attempt these edits? Nope, he's just out there tilting at windmills.

I don't really feel any need to justify why he's incorrect for the 1000th time. Wikipedia works on concensus and he has none, the rest of the community has rejected his view, because the fact of the matter is that Hong Kong is part of China, so an article about China should include Hong Kong (or, point to an article about Hong Kong) and not exclude it. The NPOV policy isn't just about articles either, it works across the wikipedia. If Instantnood has a POV to assert that he thinks is missing, he needs to find the appropriate article and get it out in the open and not change articles.

A side example here, is Evolution of the Horse. Creationists probably engage in more wiki flame wars than our China dispute, but notice there isn't a single word here about creationism? Obviously creationsists have a POV about evolution in general, but it's not in the article about the horse. So Instantnood needs to get past his POV of an indendent Hong Kong and not try and push it down every single article. SchmuckyTheCat 16:25, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

 (also a response to SchmuckyTheCat's comment at 16:25, October 12) If there's a clear consensus of the community like the one SchmuckyTheCat has mentioned, there wouldn't be administrators moving articles to "something in/of mainland China", and proposed to have mainland-specific categories (e.g. #1 #2 ), there wouldn't be an article like demographics of mainland China (move history) with the title "mainland China" since last December. And during the revert warring of the list of companies, there are other editors preferring mainland too. My request to Huaiwei and SchmuckyTheCat is not a prerequisite. I just meant to express my feelings towards their true willingness, and towards the possibility of reaching a real solution. &mdash; Instantnood 18:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Like everyone else, I am simply waiting for one member to get past his mental block and say yes. Comments about everything else will come in due course. Meanwhile, when the negotiation process formally starts, may I propose that we make use of the main page to write statements and so forth. This discussion page may be best used just for background discussion, such as how the negotiation process can take place?--Huaiwei 12:54, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Instantnood, I've told you that I think your proposal is unworkable. You said somewhere above that it wasn't a prerequisite. So, now I'm going to put the question to you again. Will you agree to the ceasefire right now as is? Dmcdevit·t 15:30, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I would just like to report, that I just noticed the first instance in which Instantnood has made a disputed edit in Category:Healthcare in Hong Kong. And the only reason why I notice this is of coz by the fact that it pops up on my watchlist (I set every single article I ever touch to be on my watchlist). As part of my continued adherance to my promise, I am not going to revert it, but I would think his action begs a good explaination here.--Huaiwei 07:11, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

 Yes I'm most willing to comply, and I do hope mediation would work. I just meant to express my bad feelings, which I found no reason I should hide, towards their true willingness to reach a resolution, for they have clearly shown they don't care about their advantaged position in promising with anything. I have also indicated my opinion that we should start dealing with the two lists. As for the two entries you mentioned, the edit to the Pan-Blue visits article is nothing contentious at all. I don't agree the by country category should be removed from the healthcare category, but I've reverted myself already, adhering to what I have promised. &mdash; Instantnood 08:10, 16 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Good. One last thing for this section. The enforcement Huaiwei mentioned above: does anyone feel strongly about it either way? I'll go along with it if everyone agrees to be bound by it, but i think i'm uncomfortable otherwise (as this mediation is voluntary). Speak up if you want it. Dmcdevit·t 08:45, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I would accept slap on the wrist blocks that are short, inconvenient and possibly escalating. SchmuckyTheCat 14:38, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Wah....I gotta type the description again?? Haha. Anyway why arent the rest contributing to it yet? (other then STC's that is)--Huaiwei 11:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
 * You can copy and paste parts if you like, I just want to ave it in one location and in your own words. :) Dmcdevit·t 17:36, 19 October 2005 (UTC)