User talk:DonCalo/Archive 2007

Mafia Wars
Hi MafiaExpert;

Good work on getting two entries on the Did You Know? section on the Main Page.

I recently submitted Michele Greco and Salvatore Riina for ratings as biographies. Greco got a 'Start' and Riina got a 'B', which isn't bad.

I've been a bit busy recently but I want to carry out my previous plan of turning the 1960s Sicilian Mafia trials into an article titled Significant Mafia Trials, so it can cover the whole of the history of the Mafia, with appropriate links to those that have their own articles (so far only the Maxi Trial.) As I may have mentioned before I may need help expanding on the Trial of the 114; I only have English language resources to work on (translation software is never very good; for example, BabelFish always translates Cosa Nostra into English as "what is ours"; it's a grammatical nightmare!) None of the books and websites I use for info mention the retrial of the 114 in the 1970s.

I also want to get round to doing the First Mafia War and Second Mafia War articles. I think they deserve their own pages.

Once again, good work on the recent new articles. There's a lot of good entries for Sicilian Mafisio and I hope the articles on the First and Second Mafia Wars will help link a lot of them together.

Robert Mercer 21:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Salvatore Greco "Aghmoochimoochi"
I did a history merge. Cheers. - crz crztalk 19:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Nobel Peace Prize
Yes, I've taken it on myself to remove this type of unverifiable information from the encyclopedia. As I've said before, nominations are secret unless they are either publicized by the nominator or are in the database of nominations prior to 1955. I checked Dolci and he isn't in the database. If we know who the nominator was, and if he announced it, then we might be able to verify it. Even if we can verify it, a Nobel Peace Prize nomination is such a minimal honor as to be inconsequential. In some cases the nominees are wonderful people who are truly deserving, in other cases they are cases of self-promotion (Bill Handel). -Will Beback · † · 19:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * PS: The AFSC nominations are an example of a clear announcement of a nomination in a notable fashion and so are unlike the anonymous nominations that are claimed in most other cases. I have no objection to including them, and it may even be worthwhile to include a mention in the biography of each nominee. -Will Beback · † · 22:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Hoowdy
Hi Mafia, I see that you reverted one of my changes. I am trying to standardize all articles per WP:MOSBIO per item #3. The article should mention the person's nationality in the lead sentence and then go into ethnic background in the main body of the article. I know that persons born outside of the US can be tricky so....Thanks --Tom 21:14, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Sicilian American
You left me a message on mentioning ethnicity. I understand you (and others?) have established a rule that ethnic background should not be mentioned in the first place, but nationality. I do not quite understand the rationale behind that (what is wrong with ethnic background?), but maybe you can explain it to me. Once you establish a rule, you are bound to have exceptions. It is not mentioned in the article, but the person we are speaking of was born in Sicily, and returned to Italy and Sicily during his life. He hardly spoke English. Anyway, as a member of the Mafia and looking at his background, I think it makes sense to mention he is Sicilian-American. As you can see, there is a whole article on the subject. - Mafia Expert 23:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi, I would refer you to WP:MOSBIO specifically item #3. This is a policy/guideline rather than a hard fast rule(also I wasn't involved in its creation but fully support it). Also, this applies to the just the LEAD sentence and discussing ethnicity further into the article is perfectly exceptable and encouraged. The problem is many articles were calling people Irish-American or Polish-American or Jewish-American or, well you get the idea. I will admitt that people who were born outside the US present more problems. I see alot of "Joe Blow was a Russian born American gum chewer" ect. This seems to be a middle ground on a very touchy subject. I have found that 90% of ethnicity additions are based on nationalist pride which is understandable but not appropriate. 10% are done out of some form of nasty agenda pushing which is also not appropriate. Anyways, my revision was nothing personal, but rather my attempt to see Wikipedia reach some sort of biographical standization of a very tricky and emotional issue. Cheers!--Tom 23:47, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Salvatore Lima and Category:Political bosses
Hi. I see that you removed Salvatore Lima from Category:Political bosses. I acknowledge that I know very little about this person, but I'll explain my action. In return, I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning. I recently encountered Category:Political bosses because an article on my watchlist had been added to it. I looked at the category, and observed that it was very US-centric, although the article Political boss (which needs sources) describes the phenomenon as occurring throughout history and throughout the world. I looked for examples of non-US political bosses to add to the category. I concluded that Salvatore Lima fit the profile of a political boss almost as well as anyone, being someone who wielded tremendous political power, largely behind the scenes, primarily through patronage and possibly various forms of political corruption. (Not all politically bosses are corrupt, but many are. Indeed, the person who had established the Political bosses category had included it in Category:Mob bosses. I removed Political bosses from the Mob bosses category because not all political bosses are mob bosses. The fact that Lima was murdered by the Mafia and may have been associated with it himself hardly changes his status as a political boss.)--orlady 00:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for explaining your view. I disagree with your view that the phenomenon of political bosses is unique to the United States (the fact that the article was US-centric does not mean that the topic is inherently US-centric). Post-war Italy is often cited as a place where the phenomenon has been widespread. For example, see Political Patronage, Bureaucracy and Corruption in Postwar Italy (PDF). Salvatore Lima may or may not deserve the label "political boss" (the article about him certainly suggests to me that he does), but "Mafia associate" and "political boss" are not mutually exclusive conditions.--orlady 20:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Crime related cfd/renaming discussions
Mafia Expert,
 * I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your support in the discussion. I'm usally on my own in these discussions. ;) By the way, I was considering moving the organized crime wikiproject to WP:CRIME to serve as a special forum for the discussion of organized crime topics. Do you think this would be worth doing ? Also, I've been discussing with User:Wooyi the idea of a Wikipedia newsletter focusing on crime related topics which would, in theory, be a writing collaberation of related WikiProjects.  MadMax 20:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Mafia Expert,
 * While I greatly appreciate the support of yourself and User:Mikkalai, I apologize to have dragged you both into this. I certainly didn't intend for the discussion to snowball as it did and, personally speaking, being called an anti-semite by at least one editor is the worst thing I've ever been called. I was certainly distrubed by the remarks said and if either of you felt the same way or were otherwise offended then in retrospect it may have been better to have left the issue alone. I would also offer my apologies User:Mikkalai although as I can't reach him from his talk page, I'm not sure how to get a hold of him. MadMax 22:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

As naive as it may sound, I really didn't think it subject was all that controversal. It also didn't occur to me that by informing other crime related Wikipedia's, I was unknowingly bringing in other edits in what has become quite a heated discussion. Again I'm very grateful for the support, especially with all you've both put up with, and I think the way you've both handled the situation thus far has kept the discussion somewhat civil. MadMax 16:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm glad I wasn't the only one (you can imagine my embarrassment with the external links fiasco). I had intended to expand the atricle more, although issues brought up by the National Crime Syndicate mentioned by User:Mantanmoreland as well as a lack of sources for the post-WWII period kept the article's progress on hold. I can unsterstand where this title would be vaid. For example German-Americans in the Civil War as it relates to whole regimants being comosed of German-Americans whereas American Jews in the Civil War (an equally valid topic in my opinion) would be composed of notable officers and other personalities. I think one of the main issue I'm concerned about, aside from the fact this argument is identical to prior discussion related to Italian-American related articles, is that completly disregards already established naming comventions of other ethnic-related articles at the behest of naming conventions of a competly seperate topic (as set of Judaism related articles). I do think its unfair and misleading to point out the Mafia and the Irish Mob given these articles existed prior to the creation of Jewish-American organized crime, African-American organized crime, Greek-American organized crime, etc. as well as the fact that the Mafia/Cosa Nostra titles is generally an establish term for the organization while less structued organizations don't really have a name per se. I'm obviously not stating anything you don't already know, however the ethnicity vs. crime debate is becoming far more frequest over the last year. The recent large scale cfd nominations at Category:Gang members by affiliation and Category:Gangs by ethnicity and its sub categories are a perfect example of this. It seems like the same arguments are hashed out over and over again without establishing some sort of precident. In the above cfd discussions alone, these propose wide reaching changes which effect all crime related categories, and while I do agree reorganiztion of crime related articles are nessessary, this completly disregards opinions of knowelagable editors (as well as reverting to the massive backlog existing on Category:Gangs for which editors such has User:Stefanomione has been working on for two years). MadMax 19:18, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, I do thank you for the work you've since put into the article. My first attempt was a general rewite to justify it from being nominated for speedy deletion or afd rather then in depth and detailed article. I did also mention to User:Steven J. Anderson, who has also been working on the article, to perhaps provide a section in regards to the term "Jewish Mafia" being used to promotte anti-semitism. MadMax 19:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Slaughter vs. mass killing
I changed "slaughter" to "mass killing" because slaughter is not an appropriate term for human killings—my reasonings:
 * 1) NPOV
 * 2) The quote in paragraph two from Primo Levi

I feel strongly that my change is proper; can you defend yours, please? (thank you for your contributions, nonetheless) --Parhamr 04:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

User Parhamr twice changed 'slaughter' into 'mass killing'. Three people are not a mass, and slaughter reflects best how it was described in Italy. - Mafia Expert 09:50, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The history shows that it was only once; I agree that three are not a mass—can we change it simply to 'killing?'


 * Do you have a source that refers to it as a slaughter? Can we add a brief explanation in the article, after the word is used? Can we get other people to weigh in on this? --Parhamr 18:23, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I moved the discussion to Talk:Giuseppe Marchese. This way it is more easy for others to follow. - Mafia Expert 18:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Jewish-American organized crime
Sorry, I was just trying to break up some of the books in the "further reading" section and incorporate them into "references" as well as citing the most direct book in case there was a issue with a specific individual or other text in the article (for example, David Pietrusza's "Rothstein: The Life, Times, and Murder of the Criminal Genius Who Fixed the 1919 World Series" to cite the claim that he had been involved in the 1919 World Series). There was a minor problem with the listing of Moses Annenberg on List of Jewish-American mobsters recently, however please feel free to revert my changes if you think its a bit too excessive. MadMax 09:34, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Creco war
Mafia Expert,
 * I've been doing some work off of User:Skysmith's missing topics list and I was wondering if you knew off any references for the Creco War ? I can't seem to find any information on it online or through the missing topics list (see here) and I was wondering if you had any information about it ? MadMax 10:41, 19 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for letting me know, I'll leave a message on Skysmith's talk page. If you need assistance help with the Greco Mafia family, I'd be happy to help. MadMax 10:54, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Leonardo Messina
Mafia Expert,
 * I've just written a short article for Leonardo Messina and I'd greatly appreciate if you could take a look at it. MadMax 17:01, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I had meant that he was involved in the investigation rather than being suspected of Moro's murder. I've reworded the statement, thanks for catching that. MadMax 19:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Most of the article was translated from the Italian article and, while I assumed What Ours may have been a direct translation of "This Thing of Ours", I kept it to the exact wording of the Italian article as I couldn't find a reference to a specific Sicilian organization such as the Corleonesi. I'll reword the statement to "a major organizaed crime group in southern Siciliy". MadMax 04:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Angelo Bottaro
Mafia Epert,
 * Sorry to bother you again, however I just finished an article on Angelo Bottaro. Unfortunatly, I've been unable to find little in the way of relaible sources with execption of Italian news articles, etc. and I am concerned about his role in the Second Mafia War. I found a news article on his murder which mentions a large mafia war, which I'm assuming is the Second Mafia War. MadMax 12:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Protectors?
Hello, It says on the mafia article that Siclians regarded the Mafia as protectors.As i don't think this is right I raised the issue on the talk page for the article but no one got back to me. Could you please take a look at what i wrote and see if what i wrote is right. Thank you. The H-Man2 11:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

RE:Your assessments
The reason I do not leave comments is because templates located in the article often cover it. Tags like or  already explain that the article needs certain improvements to advance its quality. Also, many of the articles usually just need an expansion beyond their current length of one or two paragraphs, which I would have thought would be a pretty obvious improvement to make to increase the article's rating. As for those anomalies, I admit some of my assessments are inconsistent, but most are very in-line with the appropriate criteria. - • The Giant Puffin •  20:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Leonardo Messina
I didn't assess this article, I just added the WP:BIO banner. But if someone from a WikiProject wants to assess it, they have a perfect right to do so - with all due respect, you don't own that article. I should also say the message you left me wasn't particularly civil, thanks for reverting it. Videmus Omnia 18:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Great work
I've been looking and it seems your contributions to Wikipedia have been very positive, and lots of good images too. Keep it up! GDonato (talk) 14:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Invitation to Join WikiProject Crime
Would you like to upgrade from an honorary member to a full member of the WikiProject Criminal Biography? Your work on the Mafia was greatly appreciated I think you would be a great asset to our project. As you said your an expert. Jmm6f488 07:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Caruana Cuntrera articles and Halvorssen Hellum
The reference to their extradition from Venezuela is in the mouth of Venezuelan Senator Cristobal Fernandez Dalo in an article in July 1994 British GQ that i can email to you. I only have a PDF. Fernandez Dalo was the head of the commission on mafia and narcotics and money laundering in the Venezuelan Senate. He states Halvorssen as responsible for the investigation and extradition of them.70.23.3.191

Slaughter revisited
I appreciated the rationality with which you approached our previous discussion and particularly the appropriate and reasoned arguments you provided. Can you please weigh in on the use of 'slaughter' on Talk:The_Holocaust?

The articles you contribute to have one huge failing
you barely cite any sources. you clearly are fascinated by the mafia. i suggest less adjectives, less POV and more actual research.70.18.194.64 05:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Dear whoever you are, your clearly new to Wikipedia. I think your remarks are a bit out of line. For instance your statement that the article on Calogero Vizzini lacks sources is simply not true. If you would bother to look at the bottom of the page you will find 12 sources and in the 27 references you will find more. That is considerably more than most articles on Wikipedia. A lot of the fact tags you added are in fact properly referenced. I suggest you read the references before you put a fact tag to it.
 * For your information, look at the history tag at the top of the page and you will find who initiated an article and who contributed to it. In the case of the Luciano Leggio article, I did not start it and I have tried to give more sources and references.
 * The first section of an article is an introduction to the topic and a short summary of what is in the rest of the article. You will find the sources and references there.
 * Furthermore, you might lower your aggressive tone a bit. That is ussually not the way people communicate with each other. Wikipedia is a collective effort among civil people, not a battleground for insults.
 * Your claim that there are too much adjectives and too much WP:POV in my contributions is also not true. If anything I try to avoid that and have deleted it as much as possible. I removed the tags you added where I think they are unfounded. I hope you will contribute more possitively in the future. - Mafia Expert 12:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Your DYK nomination
I just wanted to make you aware of the fact that I have commented on your DYK nomination Girolamo Li Causi. The entry is unlikely to be used until the issue has been addressed. Please note that the top of the T:TDYK page asks nominators to: "Please check back for comments on your nomination. Responding to reasonable objections will help ensure that your article is listed."--Carabinieri 04:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Cosa Nostra
hi there,

i was just wondering why my edits were changed regarding the translation of Cosa Nostra? i added the phrase 'this thing of ours' to the page but it was removed. I am not questioning the accuracy of your change, however i was under the impression that 'this thing of ours' was a legitimate translation as it is used in various mafia based films and books, (namely The Sopranos and even a film called 'This Thing Of Ours'). Your explanation of your emission of my editing would be kindly appreciated

Danny —Preceding unsigned comment added by D4tis (talk • contribs) 16:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

You are very welcome...
... and thank you for your high-quality and extensive work about cosa nostra and those who have fought this social cancer. --Analytikone 22:39, 2 December 2007 (UTC)