User talk:Doncram/Archive 32

The Signpost: 1 January 2023
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Your submission at Articles for creation: List of writers' halls of fame (January 1)
 Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reasons left by Pichemist were:

The comment the reviewer left was:

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.


 * If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:List of writers' halls of fame and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
 * If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
 * If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:List_of_writers%27_halls_of_fame Articles for creation help desk], on the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Pichemist&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:List_of_writers%27_halls_of_fame reviewer's talk page] or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Signed, Pichemist ( Contribs &#124; Talk ) 16:38, 1 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Happily, the article was just accepted by User:BusterD. Thanks!  I dunno if your responding to the request that I posted at Talk:List of halls and walks of fame put you into any uncomfortable area, like whether you are super comfortable both with AFC processes and with list-article notability and writing issues, which are specialties, but especially thanks for taking a risk or whatever if that applies. Sincerely, --Doncram (talk,contribs) 02:02, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Swindler House has been accepted
 Swindler House, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. Most new articles start out as Stub-Class or Start-Class and then attain higher grades as they develop over time. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the  [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_talk/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Swindler_House help desk] . Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to create articles yourself without posting a request to Articles for creation.

If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider.

Thanks again, and happy editing! Bkissin (talk) 18:40, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Doncram!


Happy New Year! Doncram, Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.

— Moops  ⋠ T ⋡ 00:18, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

— Moops  ⋠ T ⋡ 00:18, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: List of swimming pools has been accepted
 List of swimming pools, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

The article has been assessed as List-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

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Thanks again, and happy editing! echidnaLives -  talk  -  edits  06:06, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

AfC notification: Draft:List of writers' halls of fame has a new comment
 I've left a comment on your Articles for Creation submission, which can be viewed at Draft:List of writers' halls of fame. Thanks! Signed, Pichemist ( Contribs &#124; Talk ) 06:43, 2 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your consideration on this list-article draft. A short while ago I posted a request at Talk:List of halls and walks of fame which had effect of getting another editor to accept the draft.  I do appreciate what you and other AFC editors/reviewers do, despite my own perhaps-sometimes-critical tone about the topic of list-articles at AFC, in my AFC comments at this Draft or anywhere else. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 02:07, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Draft:John Augustus Nyden
This draft subject was determined to be not notable. Maybe you can help with it? FloridaArmy (talk) 01:01, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
 * To User:FloridaArmy and User:Pichemist, I just provided substantial comments at Draft talk:John Augustus Nyden, including instructions for using basic Wikipedia Library-enabled searching and for using the volunteer service to get any article or book for which you have reference details. Please do comment there.  Hopefully Pichemist can just accept it now, or in a few days I will submit it again towards reaching other AFC reviewers.  FloridaArmy you should at least put in request for yourself to get the bio article that I identified exists.  Thank you both for participating. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 21:02, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: St. Landry Clarion (January 3)
 Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Pichemist was:

The comment the reviewer left was:

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.


 * If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:St. Landry Clarion and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
 * If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
 * If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:St._Landry_Clarion Articles for creation help desk], on the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Pichemist&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:St._Landry_Clarion reviewer's talk page] or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Signed, Pichemist ( Contribs &#124; Talk ) 10:26, 3 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I resubmitted. Clearly notable. Decline lacks appropriate reasoning. FloridaArmy (talk) 18:32, 6 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Though yikes, admonishing with  "Don't be lazy and expect others to do everything for you, that's not how Wikipedia works." is harsh IMO.  We each choose what we want to do as volunteers.  Obviously we all could always do more, that includes User:FloridaArmy, myself, User:Pichemist.  --Doncram (talk,contribs) 21:07, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Preserved locomotives in the United States (January 4)
 Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Mattdaviesfsic was:

The comment the reviewer left was:

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.


 * If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Preserved locomotives in the United States and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
 * If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
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Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 14:38, 4 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Mattdaviesfsic, thanks for reviewing, but could you identify any single factoid, at all, that is "unsourced" and that you feel requires explicit sourcing there? Please reply, continue at Preserved locomotives in the United States.  My main point is (which I will develop there if it seems helpful) is that everything I put in comes from a source either directly identified and cited, or sources in the linked Wikipedia articles.  It is not required (and it is not good IMHO) to paste in some or all of the inline references from linked article, when a Wikipedia list-article item provides a summary of the article.  Not everyone has to understand this, but AFC reviewers of submitted list-articles need to be advised.


 * Also, the topic of "preserved locomotives" is so obviously notable, I think, that I don't think any broad discussion article about "Preserved locomotives in America" needs to be found and cited explicitly.
 * I am leaving this much reply here on my Talk page, to inform others of discussion there, and I will continue there. Thanks! --Doncram (talk,contribs) 21:40, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Please see my reply on the draft's talk page. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 06:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Cranston Voting House No. 12
Hello, Doncram. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:Cranston Voting House No. 12, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again&#32;or request that it be moved to your userspace.

If the page has already been deleted, you can request it be undeleted so you can continue working on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. FireflyBot (talk) 00:11, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Oakland, Union Parish, Louisiana has been accepted
 Oakland, Union Parish, Louisiana, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

The article has been assessed as C-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. This is a great rating for a new article, and places it among the top of accepted submissions — kudos to you! You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

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Thanks again, and happy editing! Signed, Pichemist ( Contribs &#124; Talk ) 11:20, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Draft:Floyd Orson Wolfenbarger
This is another architect I'd be happy to hve some help on if you are aboe and willing. FloridaArmy (talk) 18:33, 6 January 2023 (UTC)


 * User:FloridaArmy, on Draft:Floyd Orson Wolfenbarger, I will take steps to get this promoted, if Floyd Orson Wolfenbarger doesn't change from redlink to bluelink soon), but could you please first try the EBSCO and other literature databases searchinng available through Wikipedia Library link (as I suggest is available at Draft:John Augustus Nyden), for this article? Please open and comment at Draft talk:Floyd Orson Wolfenbarger, and ping me from there, and I will do more. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 21:14, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

"clannish editors"?
Nice ad hominem upon entry to the discussion on Articles for deletion/Mary Reed House‎‎. You're better than that. Toddst1 (talk) 04:06, 15 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Huh? I don't think "clannish" is a bad word.  There is a set of editors who do articles on NRHPs, and have some related jargon and assumptions and knowledge, as there are sets of editors focused on other topics.  What's wrong with referring to that?
 * User:Toddst1, and that my reference is an ad hominem attack? Upon myself? --Doncram (talk,contribs) 04:30, 15 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Maybe you don't know me at all. Some definitions for the term:


 * inclined to associate exclusively with the members of one's own group; cliquish: as in "the clannish behavior of the original members of the country club."


 * imbued with or influenced by the sentiments, prejudices, or the like, of a clan.


 * _Of course_ i and others in this group have sentiments, and view which could be termed "prejudices". For example we all have a bias towards historic preservation, as opposed to wanting to allow destruction of cultural heritage and artifacts to make way for the new.


 * Maybe proving the point is my own comfortable assumption that in the group of NRHP editors overlapping with AFD editors there, that I will be understood not to be anti-preservation, anti-educational about historic places such as the Mary Reed House. I find myself possibly bristling a little about being attacked with accusation that I am making an ad hominem attack, and possibly induced into delineating me/we vs you ... :) --Doncram (talk,contribs) 04:40, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * As I read it, your use of "clannish" was entirely negative. Unmodified, the NRHP project members are a positive group. By labeling them clannish - it implied to me that you thought they look out for and protect each other at the expense of other goals (aka prejudiced).  Why label them as other than what they are?  Comment on content, not on the contributor(s).
 * No need to "bristle." You were not "attacked" and you should know that. I tried to politely (if not directly) point out that you were labeling a group of editors - IMHO, pejoratively (and I'm not even one of them). You still haven't realized this so my comment is apparently quite relevant.  I even complimented you saying that you are better than this - which you usually are.
 * You're one of the more stalwart and respected editors on the project and I (incorrectly) assumed your skin would be thick enough to deal with the direct feedback.
 * Be better. Toddst1 (talk) 16:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not feedback, it's judgment, and poor judgment at that. Piffle!, is what Toddst1 says on their Talk page, when others point out their attacks. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 00:16, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 16 January 2023
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"List of Registered Historic Places in Los Angeles County, California/Temp" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect List of Registered Historic Places in Los Angeles County, California/Temp and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. 1234qwer1234qwer4 23:19, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Ohio Oil Company Building


The article Ohio Oil Company Building has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "Does not explain why the subject is notable"

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Enter Demoman (talk) 23:23, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Addressed and resolved at Talk:Ohio Oil Company Building. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 08:42, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia presentation
Repeating from the general discussion page: one answer to your question - go to 'Preferences' next to your name at the top, then go on 'Appearances' and alter to taste. use the 'Preview' option to decide, Jackiespeel (talk) 20:00, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, User:Jackiespeel, i guess, but I was not asking how to get back to the old Vector appearance/interface, in that discussion at wp:Village pump (miscellaneous). Instead I asked how I can navigate to something in the new interface, and I was given an answer, and I further commented that the new appearance/interface is growing on me.  Thank you for going out of your way to try to be helpful, though. cheers, --Doncram (talk,contribs) 08:39, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Lower Intervale Grange No. 321 has been accepted
 Lower Intervale Grange No. 321, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

The article has been assessed as Stub-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. It is commonplace for new articles to start out as stubs and then attain higher grades as they develop over time. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

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Thanks again, and happy editing! Bkissin (talk) 21:53, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Clydesdale (1819 ship)
Hi Doncram: I reverted your edits and wanted to explain why in a little more detail. The term "East Indiaman" was a generic term for any vessel sailing to the East Indies (including non-British), analogous to the term "West Indiaman", which simply meant a vessel sailing to the West Indies. The British East India Company vessels were all East Indiamen, but not all East Indiamen were EIC ships. The EIC directly owned less than a handful of merchantmen. Most of its vessels were "regular" ships which it had contracted to have built and then chartered from their owners for usually four to eight voyages (depending on the era). It also employed "extra" ships, which were vessels that it contracted for anywhere from one to six or more voyages, but had not had built for its service. On another note, I looked at your talk page and much resonates with me, especially re AfDs and bullying. Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:07, 1 February 2023 (UTC)


 * This is about Articles for deletion/Clydesdale (1819 ship) and more. Thanks, and fine about the east india company vs east indiaman distinction u know far more about than i, but my point was a specific identification is needed. The article Clydesdale (1819 ship) is about one specific ship, not about the topic "Clydesdale". This is a problem I've noticed in many articles, and i wonder if maybe an essay or a point of clarification in the manual of style or some other guideline is needed. I don't know how to refer to this point, anyhow. You didn't completely revert me, i see, allowing it to be identified as a ship at least, and i do see it is the only ship of name Clydesdale now listed (after i just added it) to disambiguation page Clydesdale, but there are others, e.g.this one, the recently uncovered slaver(?)/plantation ship(?), and others of note show up in quick Google search. Could u please revise it further to introduce the article more specifically, eg call it "The 1819 ship Clydesdale..." or such (which would require more revision in the intro)?  Thank u for posting here and your other thoughts. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 01:51, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 4 February 2023
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Your draft article, Draft:Cranston Voting House No. 12


Hello, Doncram. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Cranston Voting House No. 12".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been deleted. When you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Liz Read! Talk! 23:27, 5 February 2023 (UTC)


 * User:Liz, could you please say more? I see that it has now been deleted.  I did make effort to avoid this happening, have been deliberately trying to track any draft articles that I have out there and make edits as needed to avoid this (as well as to keep developing some of them, all the time).  Are you actually sure I missed the six month mark on this one?  And, I know you have declined in the past to help me in this way, but could you see your way to restoring it right now, saving time for me and saving effort on behalf of others that would have at least slightly more difficulty in restoring it than you would?  sincerely, --Doncram (talk,contribs) 23:49, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
 * In the future, please come to me with your refund requests. On the other hand, all you have to do to prevent deletion is to edit the draft once every 180 days... BusterD (talk) 00:04, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
 * EDIT CONFLICT: I see from my record that I tried to edit it on December 8, 2022 so it should have been okay until May 8, 2023, along with other drafts.  But I see now that I made a typo in formatting this one alone on a list, so therefore I missed this one and did not in fact edit it (it looks to me like I last edited it on 2022-07-30 22:21).  FYI, the set of drafts created by me is a rotating set ... I have gotten others published fully to main space at about the same rate as i have created some new ones.  And it is part of developing Wikipedia in a positive way, I believe.  It is positively good that I created that draft, for example, and that it was in draftspace so that no other editor would start the article without being made aware of it, etc., IMHO.
 * Liz, you are obviously legally allowed to delete it and I know that you know that I know that you don't have to restore it, but could you just do that, anyhow, please? --Doncram (talk,contribs) 00:08, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, User:BusterD for noticing this and for restoring it. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 00:08, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm a big fan of User:Liz and give lots of deference towards her calls. Further (because we've all been here so long) I'm aware of how you got yourself in this situation and while I'm sympathetic, I'm unable to affect the way things are. Please do your utmost to make this process as trouble free for the rest of us as possible. I value your work. I'd much rather make mistakes helping you than count on anyone else writing this valuable pagespace themselves. BusterD (talk) 00:17, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Yes, whether it is super fair or not for me, towards making the situation entirely trouble free for others, I jury-rigged(?) jerry-rigged(?) a system which makes a manageable amount of work for myself, which should have avoided this coming up.  And which I hope will entirely avoid further interactions in the future. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 00:24, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep on truckin', Doncram. You have more supporters than you might imagine. Your vast experience is an under-appreciated resource, IMHO. BusterD (talk) 00:28, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Wikimedia US Mountain West online meeting
Wikipedia users in the United States Mountain West and High Plains will hold an online meeting from 8:00 to 9:00 PM MST, Tuesday evening, February 14, 2023, at meet.google.com/kfu-topq-zkd. Anyone interested in the history, articles, or photographs of our region is encouraged to attend.

If you don't wish to receive these invitations any more, please remove your username from the Meetup/US Mountain West/Invitation list. Thanks.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 07:42, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Who would have thought...
that our paths wouldn't have crossed before meeting at the Pullman Flatiron Building. We've both been here forever and our interests overlap. But I don't think we've encountered each other - apologies if I've forgotten. Anyways, just wanted to drop by and thank you for Historic Site(s). Historic site is actually my favourite template, and I use it for most of my buildings articles, although they are a drop in this ocean compared to your contributions. And, having done the flattery, are you able to advise on creating List templates? I may not need to, as I have already asked the favour elsewhere, but if they are not able to help, can I come back and ask? All the best. KJP1 (talk) 18:26, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Sure i'd be glad to help, though I am not sure what you mean by "creating List templates" ... perhaps you could link me to the request(s) stated elsewhere. Flattery is good, and I think an under-utilized tool in Wikipedia!  Aside: Operating here one can expect to get as much or more negative feedback as positive, while people aren't built to function that way; something like 7:1 positive vs. negative is the ratio considered normal or necessary I think.  Gotta run, ttyl. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 18:32, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, despite my long service, I remain rubbish at Wikipedia technical matters, including their terminology. What I'm trying to do relates to this, Cadw/ICOMOS Register of Parks and Gardens of Special Historic Interest in Wales. Having done some categorisation, Category:Registered historic parks and gardens in Monmouthshire I now want to create something like this, Listed parks and gardens in the East Midlands, but which taps into the Cadw, rather than the Historic England, database. My effort is here, User:KJP1/sandbox 5 Monmouthshire gardens, but the links don't work. They should work like this, Grade I listed buildings in Monmouthshire, but an editor a lot more tech-savvy than I set that one up. As I say, don't trouble yourself just now. I've asked for help and it may well get sorted. But it is good to have a Plan B, for which many thanks. KJP1 (talk) 18:44, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi again - some good progress has been made, which you can see, here. Any suggestions based on your own experience would be very gratefully received. Do you think it might be worth asking for feedback at the Heritage sites project? Best regards. KJP1 (talk) 16:47, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: William Swain House has been accepted
 William Swain House, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

The article has been assessed as Stub-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. It is commonplace for new articles to start out as stubs and then attain higher grades as they develop over time. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the  [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_talk/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=William_Swain_House help desk] . Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to create articles yourself without posting a request to Articles for creation.

If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider.

Thanks again, and happy editing! Theroadislong (talk) 10:24, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Notes to self
Please don't insert notes and queries like "always pretty ugly? enough of a flatiron to keep or is it just a quadrilateral?" and "Billed as smallest building on west coast? F. Manson White, Chicago School??" in live articles in mainspace, as you did in List of Flatiron buildings. I've noticed you doing this before, and it's a bad practice, since any reader who happens to view the article before you deal with the matters will see the notes. That sort of thing is OK in drafts and sandboxes but not in article space. Can't you just keep notes on a sheet of paper? Also, when you're making a series of edits to an article over a (relatively short) period of time, it's a good idea to slap an In use template at the top of it, so neither you nor other editors will experience irritating edit conflicts. Deor (talk) 00:13, 12 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for changing some en-dashes to em-dashes in the article, and some similar other small changes. After I brought it from this version earlier today (but with more redlinks than show now) to this version. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 00:24, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I think @Deor's point was to not make notes to yourself in article space, I know you've done it at other lists and articles as well. The state of the Other Information column in the table at List of wedding chapels in Las Vegas is really bad right now. Could you please not add irrelevant commentary on entries in article space? Philipnelson99 (talk) 00:35, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Philipnelson99, I recognize that you had and continue to have concerns about that list-article, which is in unresolved status at Articles for deletion/List of wedding chapels in Las Vegas (2nd nomination) currently. We obviously disagree about much there, as you had deleted and I restored a number of entries in the list-article.  But I appreciate, I seriously do, your participation in the article's editing, in the Talk page discussion, and in the AFD.  Before or during while an AFD is going on, it seems to me usually better for all participants to allow arguably marginal material to remain in place (or to be added) and improved, so that all can conveniently see and hopefully so that some criticisms can be resolved by improvements.  In this case, I believe that at least some of your criticism there has been fully resolved (by elimination of all external links which were present in the article before the AFD).  I appreciate your not just re-deleting material, and IMO it is also fair and constructive for you to make further comments and requests at the Talk page, or here, about the material you view as marginal.
 * About the info in that column, there were two questions stated there until I eliminated them just now. I (obviously) didn't know how to handle one case of a "chapel" that might not have a physical chapel.  And during a period of active editing where I added specific addresses, I had noted that several differently-named services were in fact at the same address.  I addressed that then by combining and eliminating duplication, but failed then to remove the note of question.  That's done now.
 * I will volunteer that the list-article;s column for description or other information is still not great, and that I am at the moment unsure what should and should not be presented there. Hopefully the resolution of the AFD will resolve some uncertainty.  Again, thank you for your participation in all that.
 * To both of you, I do agree of course that editing type questions should not be left in mainspace articles, or at least not left there long. No one is prevented from stepping in to address them, though.  I don't know my using "under construction" or "in active use" type templates more than I have used them solves everything or anything.  It seems to me that others object to those templates being on pages, e.g. by entering to dispute whether a given article is still being edited, sometimes expressing that by removing the template.  In the past I have sometimes restored such a template, only to encounter their removing it again.  In practice there seem to be good reasons not to use them.  The list of wedding chapels article is pretty clearly in flux, anyhow, as it is labelled by the AFD notice and anyone can read the ongoing discussion there.  I presume that resolution of the AFD will allow and lead to further editing.
 * Towards actually addressing real editing issues that exist whether or not there is a question mark existing for a while in a mainspace article, it is always an option for editors such as yourselves to comment and/or make requests at the Talk pages of the articles. At the wedding chapels list, after Philipnelson99 making a comment that I feel was largely resolved, I asked questions to which no one has responded; at the flatiron buildings list there is a comment I made in 2010 and a few others' comments up to 2016, but no recent ones. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 01:23, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * This is getting into unrelated territory but I haven't replied to your discussion on the article talk page for the Las Vegas list because I'm not sure where to start with that discussion and am waiting on a resolution the AfD before beginning a potentially futile effort. Philipnelson99 (talk) 02:18, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply. I agree it seems reasonable to wait for the AFD to be finished, although I presume/hope discussion will be productive rather than "futile", e.g. perhaps towards lessening coverage of lesser entries somehow without becoming indefensibly selective.  --Doncram (talk,contribs) 02:26, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 20 February 2023
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February 2023
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war&#32; according to the reverts you have made on List of museum ships. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note: If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:48, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
 * 2) Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.
 * Your edits have been undone by 2 editors so far (myself included), and from what I have seen on the talk page you refuse to discuss the issue. Please self revert... the list of former museum ships has been absent from the article for months now. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:48, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Nonsense that I "refuse to discuss"...I opened the discussion at Talk myself, after seeing back-and-forth editing going on with nothing posted at Talk. As a responsible type of editor, you should have opened Talk.  I will get to the discussion sometime, shouldn't spend any time on this today though.  There should be no rush to resolve everything opened up, there is no deadline, there's no copyvios or BLPs or any other urgent problem.
 * I came to the page upon noticing the recent big deletion of material by you, and I see one other person, then you again (o i c u r not claiming 3 editors have done the big deletion, it is just u and one other. Well 2 editors, me and one other, restored it, so there.
 * I gather that you or someone else got away with deleting the big passage 2 months ago, stealthily, and no one immediately picked up on it and reverted the undiscussed big action. U are hanging on a technicality (what's it called (trying a link: "wp:wikilawyering"?) to assign blame to others perhaps less well versed in Wikipedia technicalities and unwritten practices.  You or whoever shouldn't have gotten away with that, and the status quo should be the version which I believe has been in place for years and years (i am not now checking).
 * I'm not reviewing everything that's happened there and at related other places (wasn't there a related AFD?), but it seems possible you are engaging in a mild (or insidious, depending on your point of view) campaign of admin abuse of process, abuse of newbies perhaps, etc. Admin abuse is characterised by admin editors pushing limits and arcane weird "rules", in acts where each one does not quite rise to the level of being a super-obvious violation, either for apparently nefarious purposes (to get their way in a content dispute without due process or against apparent consensus, to oppress some newbie or lower-status editor, etc.) or having similar bad effect(s) upon others.
 * Now you, a wp:involved admin, are threatening me (that's normal language, probably not rising to Wikipedia definition for certain purposes, don't dispute it) at my Talk page. I'd say you should be the one in danger of getting blocked from editing.
 * I will get to the discussion sometime. Chill out, okay?  I write this post for you to take note, akin to your posting here.  Don't take it too seriously, and I won't take your posturing too seriously either, if you will be reasonable going forward.  I do basically respect you as a reasonable editor.  I think my decent impression of you derives from past AFDs in which we both participated in.  If we had other significant interaction in the past I would be happy if you would remind me of that.
 * --Doncram (talk,contribs) 20:40, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: They aren't an admin.  Yoshi24517 ( Chat ) ( Online ) 01:17, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Non-national natural landmarks
Is there a good Wikipedia page for a non-national natural monument that I could be referred to as a sort of template for a landmark that I would like to creat a new page for? OquirrhMountainMan (talk) 21:58, 26 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I thought there were some U.S. states having their own separate registries of natural landmarks and being covered by list-articles in Wikipedia, but seem to be mistaken in that.
 * For historic landmarks in the U.S. there are national programs NRHP and NHL, and there is probably a state-level separate registry in every state, and we have coverage and list-articles about only some of them. And there are numerous county-level and city- or town-level ones for which we have Wikipedia coverage.E.g. there are list-articles like List of Los Angeles Historic-Cultural Monuments in Hollywood which cover city-level ones in each area of the City of Angels.
 * I don't see why there couldn't be a Wikipedia article about a state-, region-, or local-level registry of natural landmarks. Supposing you really want to write about one particular natural landmark, it still might be a good strategy to create an overview article about the registry it is listed in, and include a partial or complete list of all of the listings, in the overview article.  Or the list of all examples could be split from the overview article talking about the origination and goals and history of the program.  Then when you come forward with your article about the one, it can be understood in context as a natural split of a subtopic out of an established larger list-article.  But, you don't have to do it that way, you can start with just the one.  Likely it would relevant to include a template:Infobox protected area.
 * Feel free to ask me anything, and I'll try to help. I would take a look at any draft or notes you could put together in a page within Draft space or within your User space.  I myself have mostly worked on lists and examples of historic sites (within the worldwide scope of wp:HSITES, not natural landmarks which would be within scope of WP:PAREAS.  I'm sure it would be fine to post questions or comments or requests to wt:PAREAS; I would be willing to try to round up ppl with more relevant experience than me, if I get to know a bit more. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 03:36, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Colorado Collaboration invitation
WikiProject Colorado invites you to participate in our current collaboration to locate and document the following two original 1861 Colorado Territory county seats: If you have any questions, please contact User:Buaidh (talk or e-mail).
 * Parkville, Colorado, the original county seat of Summit County, Colorado.
 * San Miguel, Colorado, the original county seat of Costilla County, Colorado.

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Major cryptocurrency firm article corrections and important updates
Hi, I see you’re a participant in the WikiProject for Finance and Investment and are currently active on Wikipedia. There are some corrections and important updates needed in the article about Digital Currency Group, one of the major players in cryptocurrency. I’ve started a discussion here. I have a COI, as fully disclosed on the page. Given the nature of the topic I thought this might be of interest to you as a participant in the Finance and Investment WikiProject. Thanks very much for your time. CertifiedTurtle (talk) 23:11, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 9 March 2023
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Quick note re: List of Windmills
An edit made at List of windmills recently flagged at CopyPatrol because of a fairly long properly attributed quotation from this article. Thank you for all the work you have done on Wikipedia, and please keep in mind that WP:NFCCP requires that quotations from copyrighted sources be brief, and that MOS:QUOTE asks editor to paraphrase into concise encyclopedic text when possible rather than using verbatim quotes. Happy editing! — Red-tailed hawk  (nest) 06:26, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Registered buildings on the Isle of Man
Hi, me again. By a round-about route, I can to Registered Buildings and Conservation Areas of the Isle of Man. You've done a grand job, although I don't quite understand why the Talk Page is as lengthy as the article! Do you have to know if IoM lists by Grade, i.e. I/II*/II, as England/Wales or just a binary approach, registered/not registered, as Ireland.

While I'm on, I made a few comments, here, Peer review/Swindler House/archive1, which I hope might be useful. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 10:56, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks! We had interactions previously at Talk:List of bridges with buildings and I'm not sure where else (please feel free to remind me).  For an Isle of Man list-article, that Talk page is short!  See (or maybe better avoid) Talk:List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course with its seven(!) archives from 2010 on.  At the list of registered buildings, I feel I was actually fairly successful by being fairly forceful about managing "discussion" while incorporating/addressing bits of opposition in the editing of the list.  There aren't Type I vs. II. or other distinctions in IoM historic buildings.  Right now I am wondering if U.K. has "Conservation Areas", like historic districts in the United States, the way that IoM does, though;  I am just not recalling if it does.
 * Thank you for your comments at the Swindler House peer review. I'll reply there later, but it seems just helpful to receive promptly, upfront, the perspective that it can't be promoted (because it includes OR-type info, for example, which I actually feel proud about providing, though I see it is disqualifying).  Tx, --Doncram (talk,contribs) 00:58, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Dipsea Trail has been accepted
<div style="border:solid 1px #57DB1E; background:#E6FFE6; padding:1em; padding-top:0.5em; padding-bottom:0.5em; width:20em; color:black; margin-bottom: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> Dipsea Trail, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

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Your submission at Articles for creation: Elizabeth Hospital Building has been accepted
<div style="border:solid 1px #57DB1E; background:#E6FFE6; padding:1em; padding-top:0.5em; padding-bottom:0.5em; width:20em; color:black; margin-bottom: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> Elizabeth Hospital Building, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

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List articles
Just as a note regarding your page creation, we do have WikiProject Articles for creation/List of reviewers by subject, of which "Lists" could considered to be someone's "interest". Primefac (talk) 20:26, 21 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Could you add that comment to discussion section "List-articles" that I just opened at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation?  I actually experienced an edit conflict with you there just now, as I was creating it in the bottom of the last other discussion section!  I think it's worth allowing discussion of other aspects, although your suggested solution here would be naturally fine. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 20:41, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll see what other comments folks have. Primefac (talk) 20:49, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Old houses
Hi! We need your help to block user "Old houses" from editing articles. "Old houses" consistently deletes entire articles from lists and makes edits on individual historical houses in New England without citing any sources.Tomticker5 (talk) 01:49, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for notifying me, and I am sorry you have apparently had to deal with this for many years already. Please see my statement opening discussion and calling for them to be permanently blocked, at wt:NRHP.  For better or worse, that's how I choose to try to take this forward.  I am not inclined to want to engage with this user at all, and you should not have to either, and totally blocking IMO is superior to anything narrower, IMHO. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 04:30, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Article of interest
Regarding your recent comment, perhaps you would be interested in expanding this stub I started: litigation stress.

Another thought: it's a shame this project failed: Association of Members' Advocates. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:27, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: 66 Motel (Tulsa) has been accepted
<div style="border:solid 1px #57DB1E; background:#E6FFE6; padding:1em; padding-top:0.5em; padding-bottom:0.5em; width:20em; color:black; margin-bottom: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> 66 Motel (Tulsa), which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

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A small review request
@Doncram

I added a (non-contentious) friendly suggestion note at Talk:Margery Jackson#A small suggestion. I wish and request to review my suggestion there if you find topic interested enough.

Why did I select you to make this request? There is some lag from my side to reply some of your observations at my talk page previously. I wish to discuss how perceptions effect in our encyclopedic discourse - of course in friendly manner and attempt to clear the air from my side. .

I feel your take on my suggestion (though not directly connected) may help me pickup the remaining discussion, if you do not mind.

Wish you happy Wiki editing. &#32;Bookku   (talk) 12:52, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Blue Dome Historic District has been accepted
<div style="border:solid 1px #57DB1E; background:#E6FFE6; padding:1em; padding-top:0.5em; padding-bottom:0.5em; width:20em; color:black; margin-bottom: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> Blue Dome Historic District, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

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rude intervention coming from Deor
Once again I ask you to please stop inserting disjointed, unformatted material in mainspace articles, as you did in St. Mary's Basilica (Phoenix). Slapping an Under construction template on an article doesn't excuse the presence of such material in a live article that any reader may come across at any time, especially when you leave it there for five hours without any sort of cleanup. If you want to make random notes on a topic and work them up into usable contributions to an article, please do so in a sandbox or offline and then work the finished product into the article. There's no reason for encyclopedia users to be exposed to such. Deor (talk) 17:34, 26 March 2023 (UTC)


 * You're unpleasant in coming here to chide me this way, and you're just wrong. In general, and in particular about my having abandonned the topic area for 5 hours, if one takes into account related reading/editing about architects involved, which I was sorting out, in part by developing Draft:R.A. Gray (architect) and another draft article about another work of his, which I hoped would provide info to bring back to the one you're complaining about.


 * If you were actually concerned about that article and readers' experience of it, you shoulda done something to address the big unsightly notice upon it for more than 9 years! ("This article lacks inline citations besides NRIS, a database which provides minimal and sometimes ambiguous information. Please help ensure the accuracy of the information in this article by providing inline citations to additional reliable sources. November 2013").  And you shoulda addressed misinformation in the article, which you don't know about, of course.  During whatever 5 hours you speak of, it has been in better shape than it had been for all that time, as I had made various corrections and improvements, and whatever scant numuber of readers would have appreciated that it is in fact being developed.  The fact that it was tagged "under construction" and there was evidence of construction going on, was a good thing, which you, if you are in fact King of Wikipedia, should be thanking me for.  By the way, I see arguable error/fault in your own edits there since you arrived. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 18:10, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Colorado collaboration
We wish to thank everyone who contributed to our two prior Colorado collaborations to document the Amache National Historic Site and our three lost original county seats of Parkville, St. Vrain, and San Miguel. We invite you to help with our new collaboration to document the seven following former county seats: If you have any questions, please contact Buaidh  talk e-mail
 * California Ranch, Colorado near Franktown – Douglas County seat 1864 to 1874
 * Dayton, Colorado near Twin Lakes – Lake County seat 1866 to 1868
 * Hahns Peak, Colorado – Routt County seat 1878 to 1912
 * Lourette, Colorado – Lake County seat 1863 to 1866
 * San Juan City, Colorado – Hinsdale County seat February 10, 1874 to 1875
 * Ula, Colorado at 38.15°N, -105.5019°W – Custer County seat March 9, 1877 to 1878
 * Wason, Colorado near 37.8931°N, -106.8428°W – Mineral County seat March 27, 1893 to 1893

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Tarlton Theatre
AfC notification: Draft:Tarlton Theatre has a new comment <div style="border:solid 1px #9accf6;background:#f1f9ff;padding:1em;padding-top:0.5em;padding-bottom:1em;color:black;margin-bottom: 1.5em;"> I've left a comment on your Articles for Creation submission, which can be viewed at Draft:Tarlton Theatre. Thanks! AngusW🐶🐶F ( bark  •  sniff ) 17:02, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Tarlton Theatre has been accepted

<div style="border:solid 1px #57DB1E; background:#E6FFE6; padding:1em; padding-top:0.5em; padding-bottom:0.5em; width:20em; color:black; margin-bottom: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> Tarlton Theatre, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

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Thanks again, and happy editing! AngusW🐶🐶F ( bark  •  sniff ) 18:20, 31 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I filled in the history of what happened with the venue from 2000 to 2018. Lots of interesting changes! AngusW🐶🐶F  ( bark  •  sniff ) 19:32, 31 March 2023 (UTC)


 * User:AngusWOOF, thanks, I agree. Glad you identified the Green Bay Packer's nightclub; some source mentioned there had been at least 2 nightclubs, and i guess the other one was the dinner thing.  Your AFC-role interest in my developing it with sources you suggested, and your further development, add up nicely.  Thanks, this was a fun short collaboration! --Doncram (talk,contribs) 20:42, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

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I have sent you a note about a page you started
Hello, Doncram. Thank you for your work on Tarlton Theatre. User:Netherzone, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with. Please remember to sign your reply with ~. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

Netherzone (talk) 22:03, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

"National Register of Historic Places" pages
What is happening with the various "National Register of Historic Places" pages you created? They seem to have improper external links, redlinks to other list pages, and category links instead of actual categories. Also, National Register of Historic Places listings in Gulf Coast2 can't be a proper title, is it (regarding "Gulf Coast2")? ~ <b style="color: #00733f">Eejit43</b> ( talk ) 13:21, 10 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your attention. This regards region lists intended to be in Category:National Register of Historic Places in Texas by region. I see that a bot changed categories to category links while the set of pages were in draft, thanks, and i am fixing that. I don't know what are the improper external links you refer to. Let me edit for a bit, then revisit. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 00:52, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I think I was referring to the links to "texaspolitics.utexas.edu", yet looking now I don't think that is an issue. Thanks! :) ~ <b style="color: #00733f">Eejit43</b> ( talk ) 00:56, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks... all 18 are now in that category, and renamings have been done. Let me know if u see any other problems. Doncram (talk,contribs) 01:39, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Hubecky House has been accepted
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Your submission at Articles for creation: Meyer House (Florissant, Missouri) has been accepted
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Your submission at Articles for creation: Lynn County Courthouse has been accepted
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Nomination of List of locomotive classes for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article List of locomotive classes, to which you have significantly contributed, is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or if it should be deleted.

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Your submission at Articles for creation: City Veterinary Hospital has been accepted
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Corinth Clothing Manufacturing Building
Would you be aboe to add a link to the NRHP document for this subject? FloridaArmy (talk) 17:13, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Missouri German architecture


A tag has been placed on Category:Missouri German architecture indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 02:03, 15 May 2023 (UTC)


 * It's no longer empty. I removed the tag myself, per instructions at the category page, which seem to have been different than what you say here. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 02:27, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

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Your submission at Articles for creation: Royal Palms Resort and Spa has been accepted
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Your submission at Articles for creation: Newport Beach Hotel & Suites (May 25)
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Dan arndt (talk) 03:54, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Circleville Historic District (June 1)
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Elkman (Elkspeak) 19:39, 1 June 2023 (UTC)


 * User:Elkman, please feel free to review it again. I am sorry that I had "submitted" it and/or that it was not marked "in use" or "under construction" when you arrived, edited a bit, and reviewed it, with edit conflicts vs. my edits.  I did not expect it to be noticed so quickly, and it took me much longer than expected to revise it and make related edits elsewhere in Wikipedia and at Commons. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 21:12, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Circleville Historic District has been accepted
<div style="border:solid 1px #57DB1E; background:#E6FFE6; padding:1em; padding-top:0.5em; padding-bottom:0.5em; width:20em; color:black; margin-bottom: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> Circleville Historic District, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

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 * Sorry I jumped the gun there. I saw the article at User:AlexNewArtBot/ArchitectureSearchResult‎ and saw the AFC banner, and I thought a review was requested.  --Elkman (Elkspeak) 21:59, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 5 June 2023
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Your submission at Articles for creation: Brown's Canyon Bridge has been accepted
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Your submission at Articles for creation: McFadden Barn has been accepted
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Thanks again, and happy editing! Drmies (talk) 01:49, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Casa Loma Hotel has been accepted
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Your submission at Articles for creation: Tubac Golf Resort and Spa (June 10)
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CNMall41 (talk) 22:18, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

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Your submission at Articles for creation: Central Frankfort Historic District has been accepted
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Your submission at Articles for creation: Kitchen Brigade (film) (July 2)
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Karnataka (talk) 16:06, 2 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Wow that was quick. Does addition of reviews from NYTimes and Variety, and Rotten Tomatoes score of 90, change your view?  Film articles are not my forte, but the draft was comparable to, and now has more sourcing than, other movie articles I looked at. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 16:36, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 3 July 2023
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Draft categories
No, there isn't a bot that comes along and disables all categories on all drafts as a matter of course. There is a bot that will do that only for drafts that specifically have an AFC-related template on them, but there is absolutely no bot that will ever fix any categories on a draft that doesn't have an AFC-related template on it. Because your draft doesn't have any AFC-related templates on it, however, it would simply stay in categories if a human didn't come along to take it out, because no bot would ever have "fixed" that.

Also, the rule doesn't care about what's "convenient" for you, it cares about what's appropriate for the reader. Bearcat (talk) 11:30, 4 July 2023 (UTC)


 * [That was in response to my posting "removal of categories" at Bearcat's Talk page:

I saw an edit of yours removed categories in draft page Draft:Old Post Office Museum (Winnsboro, Louisiana), and I reverted that (and then made some other category modifications). FYI, I am aware that technically Draftspace articles are not supposed to be in active categories, but it is convenient when drafting articles to bop back and forth to articles in the categories. And there are bots which come by, within a few hours, to apply some template so that they are no longer active, so you don't need to. I don't mean to cause anyone stress or work, and I hope my editing has not bothered you.

thanks, Doncram (talk,contribs) 11:21, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ]


 * Okay, well then there should be a bot. I have the impression you do a lot of category work.  IMHO you and others who in fact take on this kind of work could or should get one put in place, to lessen your workload and to reduce friction between editors.  In this case, there is minor friction because you completely removed categories which I had spent some effort in creating, which on my side seems unconstructive.  I would be willing to begin a request or contribute to a new wp:botrequest discussion, about how such a bot could operate unobtrusively. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 11:45, 4 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I further see that you re-deleted the categories, now with an edit summary "drafts are not allowed to be categorized as if they were finished articles; this is not an optional rule that you're free to disregard, but an absolute inviolable rule that all drafts must always obey and no draft is ever exempted from". IMHO that is an overstatement, in fact quite an overstatement, along lines that I just commented about in a different segment on your talk page, where IMHO it appears you offended a different editor by making an over statement. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 11:51, 4 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I see this recent exchange on User talk:Bearcat provides evidence [of stress and of friction 13:16, 4 July 2023 (UTC)] and some suggestion of criteria for what a bot could/should do, such as test for existence of categories and act differently when they do vs. do not exist. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 12:07, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I have asked for a bot to look after that more than once, because it's a task I would dearly love to never have to spend any time on at all, but the people who make bots have repeatedly advised me that there's just no feasible way for a bot to find drafts that aren't already templated for a draft-specific maintenance queue. If a draft is templated for such a queue, then the bot can easily take a spin through that queue to check for any mainspace categories that the drafts shouldn't be in, but if a draft isn't templated for such a queue, then a bot has no other way to find it independently of taking a spin through a draft-specific maintenance queue.
 * It is also in no way an overstatement that drafts and user pages aren't allowed to be filed in content categories as if they were already finished articles — WP:DRAFTNOCAT and WP:USERNOCAT are both quite clear that those are rules and not simply suggestions. You're free to wrap categories inside the {[tl|draft categories}} template if you wish, so that they turn into text links to the categories instead of filing the pages in the categories, but (a) that's an option, not a requirement, so you don't get to give anybody else any stick if they just remove the categories rather than disabling them, and (b) you're simply not at all free to file the draft in categories as if it were already a finished article in mainspace. Bearcat (talk) 12:22, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * That's interesting, thanks. Again I think there are overstatements, but I assume we could agree to disagree about that.  Browsing at archives of bot requests, I find no occurrences of "DRAFTNOCAT" mentioned, but for "USERNOCAT" i find Bot requests/Archive 46 (from 2012, when it seemed such a bot was feasible and was created).  For "bearcat" I find one mention of Category:Cincinnati Bearcats football coaches(!) and three unrelated botrequests in which you participated.  Could you point me elsewhere?
 * Being "templated for a queue" doesn't seem like too much of an obstacle. There is Category:Draft articles, currently with 5,000 or so members, which is populated by placement of Draft article.  I just added that template to Draft:Old Post Office Museum (Winnsboro, Louisiana).  I and most/all editors you're having to deal with probably wouldn't mind that being added, and having that put their articles into a queue for such a maintenance bot to be run occasionally.
 * I see at wp:botrequest that before an actual programming request is submitted, it is better if first a consensus for a bot's requirements could be established elsewhere. Any suggestion where that should be, to develop this?  Or who else should be invited to a discussion? --Doncram (talk,contribs) 13:16, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Per Category:AfC submissions with categories, it is DannyS712 bot which "is used on a semi-regular basis to clean out this category, so if there are a large number of pages, do not feel obligated to edit them yourself. / There is also a userscript to aid in converting categorization to links. See User:DannyS712/Draft no cat."  So a bot request should really be just a request to extend application of this specific bot. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 14:05, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Kitchen Brigade (film) has been accepted
<div style="border:solid 1px #57DB1E; background:#E6FFE6; padding:1em; padding-top:0.5em; padding-bottom:0.5em; width:20em; color:black; margin-bottom: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> Kitchen Brigade (film), which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

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