User talk:Doncram/Archive 7

LA houses
Good to see you back from your trip and working at Wikipedia. I also saw the article in the LA Times. Some interesting stuff both to add to existing articles and to inspire articles on the two that don't have articles. Cbl62 (talk) 07:53, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Kappe Residence
I've made a start at one of the two missing houses from the LA Times top 10. See Kappe Residence. I'll work on improving this one and also the other as time permits. Thanks for the note about this subject. Cbl62 (talk) 00:18, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

question what is going on with PDF links for NRHP sites
In this diff on the Chautauqua Institution article and others on my watchlist, your PDFbot has been changing PDF links. I don't quite understand what is being done. I have cumulatively added about a zillion PDF links to National Register documents, and I am adding more as time goes by, and I maintain wp:NRHPMOS and provide other guidance to other NRHP editors. I'd like to understand, so at least I could revise my own practices and update my guidance. By the way, i was on a 2 month or so wikibreak so you may have done a lot that i did not notice already. doncram (talk) 21:37, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * For example in this edit of Falls of Clyde article, you revise a footnote that had 2 PDF links to now show 2 different types, one being a url link with a PDF symbol following, one being a PDFlink with a PDF file size showing. I don't grok why you'd want to mix 2 ways of linking to PDF files in the same reference.  I have created thousands of these references that have 2 PDF links, one to a text PDF document and one to accompanying PDF photos document.  I notice the bot is hitting more articles on my watchlist since i asked question above.  Can you please stop and discuss? doncram (talk) 21:56, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

stop the bot please
I judge that the bot is malfunctioning. Please stop and discuss. I posted at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents or some such title, asking for an admin to hit the big red stop button. doncram (talk) 22:08, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * bot was "blocked" by an admin there, who offers to unblock upon request. doncram (talk) 22:18, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Dispenser. I assume u had other business to attend today.  I know your bot was making some improvements, and I expect that the NRHP references involving 2 PDF links can be improved from the model i and some others have been implementing widely, but I do think the current bot was not addressing these properly.  Not aware of what would be right forum to discuss proper formatting in references for PDF links.  Would be happy to consult any guidelines, any forum you suggest. doncram (talk) 04:35, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

The issue is primarily with citation templates. The input parameters in these templates are suppose to act as though they were being nowiki'd. This restriction greatly eases the writing of regular expressions (no worries about template nesting) and wikitext parsers and simple error detection becomes possible. In the case of semantic parsers they will not understand that the URL is part of the citation and assume the citation has no corresponding url, examples include my Checklinks tool and likely User:Citation bot.

If you wish to have the (PDF) displayed next to the link you can use cite web using the format= parameter or you can ask at template talk:citation if they'd be willing to add a similar parameter. PDFbot was recently approved to add &#124;format=PDF to the {&#123;cite *}} series of template. There was an early proposal around the time PDFbot was created to include file size information in cite web, but it failed to get any momentum and I'm not sure if it is appropriate for the template.

While I'm no reference expert (I leave that up to those at WP:FAC) the way the reference is structured seems very odd to me. I would have assumed that the text document would support the assertion made in the article and image document would be provided as an external link to view more resources.

Anyway, Happy New Year. — Dispenser 07:58, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for responding at my talk page. I just asked at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates for opinions on what should be done with the semi-complex NRHP references involving 2 PDFs, referring to the copy of discussion you put in at my talk page.  Will you watch wikipedia talk FAC and/or my talk page?  Thanks doncram (talk) 18:03, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll peer at both every so often. — Dispenser 18:43, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the help with Florida!
I see you moving lists. Muchly appreciated. I'm working on the main article for it in this messy sandbox. I'm dumping pictures on the page, and then will sort thru to pick the best. I'll finish up this weekend, but going to bed now. :) --Ebyabe (talk) 04:52, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you take a look at the messy sandbox, when you get a chance, and share your thoughts? I know it's photo heavy; it was hard enough to prune down to that. Lemme know. :) --Ebyabe (talk) 19:46, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Re: Oddfellows Merger proposal - a couple of questions
Thanks for your comments. In general I agree; I think that's the sort of thing I had in mind (but hadn't said so).

Question1: Have you had a look at IOOF Building? Do you have any thoughts about that page? (After reading your comments, I am now definitely of the opinion that it is not what we want.)

Question2: Have you given thought to the maintenance and consistency problems?

You say: "It is not at all too much work to keep a system of 11 dab pages organized consistently." It is the consistency of the data that I'm concerned about; I agree that the consistency of organisation shouldn't be much of a problem. I'm prepared to support your 11-pages-of-data scenario, but only if there is someone (else) prepared to take on the job of maintaining the consistency of the data. (It was the current inconsistency between IOOF Building and the other 10 pages that lead me to make the proposal.)

Thank you for adding to, clarifying and improving the proposal. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:34, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured topic candidates/Washington Park, Chicago
As a result of discussion at Featured topic candidates/Washington Park, Chicago, I have created a new NRHP for you at Schulze Baking Company Plant. Feel free to help clean up and expand this article. Also, I have been requested to expand Washington Park Court District to pursue a WP:GAC. I need some help because I can not find any more info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger (talk • contribs) 19:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What do you think about this as a source for Schulze Baking Company Plant?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Clickable map
Hey, the link to the online tool is this. In the "Load from Wikimedia project" area, enter "commons.wikimedia.org" in the "Wikimedia project" box. Then the map name in the "Name" box, without "Image:" or "File:" in front of it. For example, with Florida I used Florida counties map.png. You then have to trace the outline of each county. It takes a while, the more counties the longer. Hope that gets you going. :) --Ebyabe (talk) 00:59, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, the next bit is under "Areas", select "Polygon". Then trace a county. When you're done, click "Polygon" again and do the next one. The code appears in the "ImageMap extension code" box nearer the bottom. I recommend copying the code every few counties into some other file and saving, so you don't lose work. It's a pain if you've done 25 counties, then there's a power blink and the works gone. Cheers! --Ebyabe (talk) 01:05, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're interested, I threw together a list of number of counties (or county equivalents) per state. Delaware has the least (3) and Texas the most (254). The five lowest are Delaware (3), Hawaii (4), Rhode Island (5), Connecticut (8), and New Hampshire (10). If you want to practice making clickable maps, they'd be good starters. :) --Ebyabe (talk) 01:41, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm, to work on a NY map i could start with "File:Map of New York highlighting Syracuse.png" on commons.wikimedia.org, just have to delete a little red area not touching any lines which should not be hard. But am having trouble getting the Image Map Editor linked above to load...hmm, maybe i should try MSIE rather than Firefox. doncram (talk) 03:00, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm, can get that image up, in part with help of WikiHow writeup. And i succeed in making a test polygon shape.  But then i can't delete the red area identifying Syracuse.  I need a clean copy of the New York PNG map.  Hmm.doncram (talk) 03:12, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Once you've finished outlining a county, hitting "Polygon" again generates the code. The area you highlighted should change from red to gray. Then you can outline the next county. And so on... --Ebyabe (talk) 03:32, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Yay!, seems to be working.

HABS picture
I just created a stub for John Gridley House, which seems to be the only remaining house in Syracuse that was included on the HABS survey. I know HABS pics can often be used for our purposes, but I've never accessed one for use. I'm pretty sure that you have. Can you give me some direction? I intend to get a contemporary picture, but I think it would be good to have a HABS picture, too. Lvklock (talk) 03:46, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for the prompt and explicit reply. I'm feeling stupid, because I'm sure this should be obvious, but....I'm looking at the picture I want, but I don't know how to download it to my computer.  I see the two links, including the one for the highest resolution TIF file.  I click on that, and it opens another window. Hmmm....Lvklock (talk) 04:31, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yup, that did it. With the TIF file, when i right clicked I got Quick Player, which wasn't what I was expecting...thus the confusion.  Of course, now that I have it downloaded, I realize that the software I've been using for pics doesn't edit them....I've known I needed a different software for a while.  That'll be on my agenda for tomorrow, I guess.  Thanks again. Lvklock (talk) 05:07, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Once I got the proper software loaded I managed beautifully with your direction. Thanks, again.Lvklock (talk) 02:17, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm...probably another browser difference. I'm using IE, you're using Firefox.  The gallery shows up nice and close in my browser.Lvklock (talk) 02:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

IOOF Building (Adelaide)
As I said at Talk:Odd Fellows Hall: Wow! You don't muck around, do you! I'm very impressed!

Also, thank you for inadvertantly bringing to my attention that prior to becoming "The Advertiser", the paper was called "The South Australian Advertiser", but more importantly, that the papers are on-line!

Also, thank you for creating the IOOF Building (Adelaide) page. Having been shamed into activity by your impressive productivity, I have added (considerably) to the page. If the mood takes you, I'd be interested to hear your opinion of what I've done; I've not written an article about a building before, and I gather you have written many.

I just have one minor problem - As far as I can determine, "MacDonnell Lodge" was sub-entity of the IOOF, not a building. Do you have any evidence of its location?

Once again, thank you so much for your valuable ideas and motivation. Regards, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:19, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Another "Wow!". You clearly have a good working understanding of the minds of WP deletionists!! You are also very good at blowing smoke! You certainly had me convinced until I actually found the clip you alluded to and read it. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:56, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * BTW: If the page you're refering to is: "a (http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/790987 newspaper clip) from page 3 of The South Australian Advertiser, 31 March 1859"; nla is the National Library of Australia - if it's unreliable, I don't hold much hope for the future reliability of information in Australia! Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:56, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I just did a google on "IOOF Building Adelaide" - it never ceases to amaze me how many copies/mirrors there are of wikipedia! (Why do they do it!?) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 12:03, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I can't find the google hit again that i was using; it's not the link u just provided. I don't really mean to be disrespectful of Newpagepatrollers, they have a real job to do. I did expect/count on ur wanting to fix up the article. About the article, it is better now, but it remains a bit confusing that it covers two buildings but it has a title seemingly referring to one building. In general, i do one article per notable building. If the 2 you cover are distinct, they could deserve separate articles (which could link to each other if they are related). Just a thought. Anyhow, it is rather late where i am, that's all for me tonight. Cheers, doncram (talk) 12:04, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

General:
 * I can't find the google hit again that i was using; it's not the link u just provided. - Oh :-(  Now I'm intrigued. If you ever come across it again ...
 * I don't really mean to be disrespectful ...  - I didn't think you were.
 * I did expect/count on ur wanting to fix up the article. - Well, you were 100% spot on with that thought!
 * It's getting late here, too. From your comment, it doesn't sound like you're in the U.S. Again I'm intrigued. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 12:53, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

About the article:
 * it remains a bit confusing that it covers two buildings - Agreed. I couldn't think how best to address that. The first building no longer exists, and it was because the first building was demolished that the second building was built. Hence, at any given point in time, there has only ever been zero or one IOOF Building (Adelaide).
 * I'm not sure the first building is (was?) sufficiently notable to rate a separate article - How do you create a convincing case that a building that was flattened and turned into a back lane is "notable"?
 * Any advice will be greatfully received!! Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 12:53, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

more on IOOF Building (Adelaide) etc
Okay, i edited the various articles, moving the big draft from IOOF Building to Odd Fellows Hall, and stripping down the various others. I like your addition of alphabetic capital letters to the big list. I think it is all okay and done now. Thanks for your interest and help in getting this system set up properly. Cheers, doncram (talk) 10:17, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Great work!! Good job!!
 * (I'm not sure what you're thanking me for actually doing - it was you who had all the good ideas and did almost all of the work!)
 * Many thanks for solving a problem that I wasn't quite sure of the best way to solve.
 * Regards, Pdfpdf (talk) 10:28, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Hanover Square Historic District disambiguation
I ran into a district that needs disambiguation. There are Hanover Square Historic Districts in both Syracuse and Horseheads. I did a temporary fix with the Syracuse list like this >Hanover Square Historic District. What do you call that anyway? Anyway, when you get a chance can you do some disambiguation magic on that? Lvklock (talk) 20:22, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks!Lvklock (talk) 01:32, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks!!!
Thanks for adding the summary table and illustrative photos to National Register of Historic Places listings in Maryland. Very classy ... Ted--Pubdog (talk) 23:10, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

List of NHLs in FL
Hey, when you get a chance, tell me whatcha think. I've been fiddling with it to get it to FL. There's photos missing for six of the sites, but I can't find decent ones for them. I know there's PDFs for them at the NPS site, but can't figure how to extract them so they can be jpg files, or something. Cheers! :) --Ebyabe (talk) 02:57, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I know some of the descriptions are short; that may need improving. I also commented out the non-NHLs. Wanted to keep the info, though, b/c I found some useful links in my travels. The "Birthdays" one alone was worth the searching. :) --Ebyabe (talk) 03:28, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll try to take a look at these tomorrow and fluff out the descriptions a bit. dm (talk) 06:43, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Remember that photo contest?
Hey, remember that photo contest that you told us all about six months ago or so? NHL pics for a calendar? Did you ever see anything about who the winners were? Lvklock (talk) 02:59, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, finally, hurrah! Here it is, with an event planner using some of the photos.
 * Good to know....of course, the NPS site for it is down right now. I'll keep checking.  Thanks. Lvklock (talk) 18:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

John Frew House
I've moved the latest house that was supposedly in Pittsburgh but really wasn't. Have you seen my response to your question about it? Nyttend (talk) 18:49, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I've added sources for the Frew House being in Crafton. Sorry for not being clear: I was simply trying to produce a good synthesis of information; the street signs (including the bit about Third Presbyterian), for example, were simply an argument for the house not being in Pittsburgh.  The only mentions I made on that page, as far as problematic locations, were the three you mentioned; I'd not observed any problems with any properties except the Gardner-Bailey House, so please don't think that I'd discovered anything that you'd not seen.  Nyttend (talk) 20:06, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

NRHP2 compatibility
Hey there; it's been a while since I talked to you. Most of my time has been taken up by the Main Page Redesign Proposal (WP:MPRP), so I haven't really been doing anything with NRHP. Until you commented on my talk page, I hadn't realized that I had even taken the page off of my watchlist haha. As I mentioned on the talk page, I've updated NRHP2 to include support for delisted properties.

The main reason I'm writing this, however, is dealing with NRHP v. NRHP2.. Back when I was coding the NRHP2 infobox, I had just become acquainted with coding, but now that I've had a few months' experience (mostly on User:Dudemanfellabra/Sandbox2 for the MRPP..), I think I may be able to make NRHP2 backwards-compatible with Infobox NRHP. Haha I know this comes at a sucky time since probably thousands of pages now link to NRHP2, but I do believe it can be done. I think I can change the code of nrhp2 to use nrhp_type=____ for the first designation and follow up with nrhp_type2=____, nrhp_type3=____, etc. Infobox nrhp would ignore these other parameters, but nrhp2 would pick them up. I think the most that would be needed would be 5, and then I would leave the "other" designations in (i.e. other1, other2, and other3) for local designations. While yes, it would be a pain to relink all the nrhp2 pages to nrhp, I think it can be done, and we can return to having just one infobox. I think the nrhp_type parameter was the only thing that wasn't backwards-compatible with the two, but I may be mistaken. If I find something else, I'll let you know, but in the next few days, I'll be working (probably on nrhp3) to find a backwards-compatible solution. Any comments? --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 19:17, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I've finished the coding.. currently Infobox nrhp3 is compatible with nrhp and nrhp2; it will accept either the ____=yes format or the nrhp_type=____ format (not both). Examples can be found at User:Dudemanfellabra/Sandbox. If you approve, I'm going to bring it up over at WP:NRHP talk. The code in Infobox nrhp can be replaced with this code without breaking any functionality.... to the best of my knowledge. What do you think? --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 20:20, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia Loves Art
First off, I apologize for the spam. You are receiving this message because you have indicated that you are in Southern California or interested in Southern California topics (either via category or WikiProject).

I would like to invite you to the Los Angeles edition of Wikipedia Loves Art, a photography scavenger hunt to be held at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA) on Saturday, February 28, 2009, from 1:00 to 7:00 PM. All photos are intended for use in Wikipedia articles or on Wikimedia Commons. There will be a prize available for the person who gets the most photos on the list.

If you don't like art, why not come just to meet your fellow Wikipedians. Apparently, we haven't had a meetup in this area since June 2006!

If you are interested in attending, please add your name to Wikipedia Loves Art. Please make a note if you are traveling to the area (train or plane) and need transportation, which can probably be arranged via carpool, but we need time to coordinate. Lodging is as of right now out of scope, but we could discuss that if enough people are interested.

Thank you and I hope to see you there!  howcheng  {chat} 23:48, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Armory Square and other Syracuse Historic Districts
I've been debating in my own mind whether to add a list of properties included in the historic districts. I know that if I were reading the article in anticipation of visiting someplace, I'd like to know. I've often been stymied by not knowing what to take a picture of in a district. So, it could make sense for a district like Armory Square where there are 46 contributing properties. I might even see myself eventually taking pictures of them all, if it made sense. But, then there are districts (including one in Syracuse) where there are 300 or more contributing properties. So, first, what do you think of having such a listing? And, second, would you do it as part of the article, or as a separate list article? Lvklock (talk) 00:39, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Just wondering if you'd had a chance to think about this. Lvklock (talk) 00:50, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Check Sycamore Historic District and its breakout lists for some ideas. :) --Ebyabe (talk) 03:08, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * BTW, I'm using your Landmark Theater pic in the Armory Square list. Thanks! Lvklock (talk) 23:38, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, so I'm looking at Strathmore "By the Park" Subdivision, which has 198 contributing properties, all private residences. There's no good splitting point for creating sublists, as in the example Ebyabe kindly provided.  There is a brief description of each, and I could eventually get pics.  I just can't decide if it's really useful to do a table of all 198 properties.  What's the cutoff for when a table is too big? Lvklock (talk) 10:01, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey, I'm at home sick today, trying to edit...I keep getting a server error, like every other edit. Are you having trouble, too? Lvklock (talk) 18:09, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, those server errors were annoying....but, today's a new day. Hopefully a lot can be accomplished!  :)  Lvklock (talk) 15:00, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXXIV (December 2008)
The December 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 02:41, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

National monument proclamations
Here are the links to the Antiquities Act proclamations for the 3 new national monuments: Ipoellet (talk) 07:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Rose Atoll
 * Pacific Remote Islands
 * Marianas Trench

Listed buildings in Runcorn, Cheshire FL
Made it, thanks to your help and encouragement. It's a first for the WikiProject Cheshire. Best wishes. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 20:27, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Request for advice
I haven't been as active with the NRHP WikiProject as I'd like, due to various concerns; however, there is one article I'd like to get started in the not-too-distant future, and that's the one about the "Peter Francisco House" in Buckingham County, Virginia. Here's the thing, though - Francisco's an ancestor of mine (shameless plug much?) and I grew up hearing about the house...as Locust Grove. It's a documented name, so far as I know; I can probably find a handful of books using that name to back it up. Do you think there would be any objection to my creating the article as "Locust Grove (Dillwyn, Virginia)", and making "Peter Francisco House" a redirect? I think it's silly not to use the property's real name when almost everyone else I know uses it. Even if the federal government doesn't.

(I want the article to be on DYK on March 15 - Peter Francisco Day. Then I can show our descendents' association I'm actually doing something constructive with my time on here...) --User:AlbertHerring Io son l'orecchio e tu la bocca: parla! 14:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, one can hope, but I think they think I'm a little odd for doing it. Although I'm establishing a better web presence for Peter than our so-called webmistress *grumble grumble*


 * That Virginia DHR site is wonderful; so much good stuff there. I also have some other materials from one of my cousins, and I'm waiting on a couple of older photographs.


 * And I quite agree with you; I think an infobox makes an article look so much better that it's always worth having.


 * Thanks for your help! --User:AlbertHerring Io son l'orecchio e tu la bocca: parla! 17:08, 15 January 2009 (UTC)


 * He's a fascinating guy, but not that well known outside of south-central Virginia, unfortunately. I don't like that tag, but I've got a lot of stuff I can add to the article besides what's in that DHR form.  There are a couple of biographies, for starters, and there's a fair amount of decent material online (and my father is compiling a genealogy, so I know he's found some stuff I could use).  I think that's going to be one of my projects for '09 - building the article up to FA status.


 * Bloody Ban, for his part, is looked upon with great scorn in my household, for obvious reasons. And I once weirded somebody out by making a rude noise at his portrait in the National Gallery, in London. --User:AlbertHerring Io son l'orecchio e tu la bocca: parla! 18:14, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Help! My first attempt at a list is a mess!
Would you have a minute to look at Hanover Square, Syracuse? I'm getting ready to revert it to an edition before I tried the table, but I'm wondering what I'm doing wrong for my next try. I don't understand why the table is down where it is. Lvklock (talk) 00:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Duh, it helps if you close the table! I figured it out.  Thanks anyway. Lvklock (talk) 01:01, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

List of MPSes
As far as I know, the National Register database doesn't contain links to the PDFs, but I've worked together a query that will list all of the Multiple Property Submissions in a state. The query is at this link.

I'm not sure if there's a difference between querying PDFs at the older link at nr.nps.gov or the newer link at NPS Focus. Actually, neither one is giving me results right now.

By the way, I'm replying here instead of at my talk page because I don't want all those wrestling fans trying to use MPS queries they don't need to know about. Right now, I'm so angry at the wrestling crap that I can't think straight. --Elkman (Elkspeak) 02:55, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, one thing I forgot to mention: A few of those MPSes have only one property in them, or perhaps none at all. Those are anomalies, but I noticed that American Indian Rock Art in Minnesota MPS only has Spring Creek Petroglyphs in it.  I think in those cases, we should hold off on creating the MPS article until the actual component property article has been submitted, or perhaps not create the MPS article at all.  West Seventh Street Early Limestone Houses TR has no listed properties (unless there are some that were eligible, but the owner objected.)  Also, some of those county-wide MRAs (Multiple Resource Areas) were a result of the SHPOs doing a county-wide survey of places that could be eligible for the National Register.  In those cases, there isn't such a thematic grouping as would be found in Minnesota's Lake Superior Shipwrecks MPS or in Reinforced-Concrete Highway Bridges in Minnesota MPS.  I'm not even sure what MRA (AD) means, unless it's additional documentation.  Finally, I think it would be a good thing, at least when creating these articles, to list the number of component properties and/or provide a full list of them in Wiki format.  I can probably write a query to list those, but not tonight - it's late.  How about if I work on a sample generator and format for Aitkin County MRA, and then we can work on it some more before creating the full sets of articles?  --Elkman (Elkspeak) 06:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I made this list for Florida. Might something like it work for the other states? I think that (AD) probably does mean additional documentation. --Ebyabe (talk) 20:53, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

NRHP Names
Thanks for the additional info on NRHP naming. That helped address one of the issues, which was Carnifex Ferry State Park (NRHP) versus Carnifex Ferry Battlefield State Park (WVDNR).

I'd like your opinion about Nicholas County High School at National Register of Historic Places listings in West Virginia. The NRHP-listed building is different than the current Nicholas County High School, which was built in the 1990s. It seems like a good idea to distinguish in the NRHP lists that the listed building is not the same as the building that currently goes by that name, figuring that people may not click through to the article (if one even exists). Do you have any suggestions? Nyttend didn't like listing it as "Old Nicholas County High School." Brian Powell (talk) 20:59, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * My common procedure is that I don't like redirects on these pages: although I'll not edit a list simply to remove redirects, I'll often retarget a redirect to the actual article if I have a good reason to edit the list. Brian added the "Old" to the link, but "Old NCHS" is simply a redirect to "NCHS".  No complaints about having a separate article on the Old NCHS; it's just that there isn't one right now.  Nyttend (talk) 21:03, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Move discussion about Nicholas County High School NRHP to Talk:Nicholas County High School. Thanks! doncram (talk) 21:06, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, Old Nicholas County High School redirects the section in the NCHS article about the old school. Brian Powell (talk) 21:13, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know how much i want to fight for it, but i'd rather discuss this at Talk:Nicholas County High School. Thanks! doncram (talk) 21:29, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

help on Old Main (Nicholas County High School),Old Main
I'd be happy to, but I don't know when I can get to it. When did the DYK clock start? Unfortunately, I'm stuck working a bunch of OT this week (as a matter of fact, that's where I am now). I'll try, but can't promise. Lvklock (talk) 00:24, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Old Main
Don't know if I should comment here or in the previous section, but I'm not clear why we need to make Old Main conform necessarily to NRHP listing guidelines — not sure about all of them, but at least Geneva College's building isn't on the NRHP. Nyttend (talk) 02:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The Category:NRHP dab needing cleanup tag is just a convenience indicator for me to come back to it and fix it up in certain ways, in particular addressing any NRHP ones included. The problem with this one is that it is presented as a List-article, and starts out that way, but then it has a "disambig" template, making it a disambig page.  There are lots of rules about disambig pages covered in wp:MOSDAB and interpreted and enforced by WikiProject Disambiguation editors.  There's a dictum that Disambig pages are not articles.  Disambig pages pretty much are not allowed to have any intro, any photos, any unnecessary description beyond what is needed to get a reader to the individual page they want.  For this article, maybe it should be a list-article instead, and the disambig should be removed.  But there is a need for disambiguation, so maybe to be paired with a separate Old Main (disambiguation) article. Not sure what to do.  Maybe look up what "set index articles" are, which i have not used before.  I'll copy some of these questions/thoughts over to Talk:List of Old Main buildings, I guess, and let it percolate. doncram (talk) 03:07, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems fine for the List article to exist as a Set Index article instead. Have changed in and removed my "NRHP dab needing cleanup" tag. doncram (talk) 04:04, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Thomas Paine Cottage
I took a crack at revising the text based on the refs (and not just reading the text that had been reverted. Please let me know what you think dm (talk) 18:46, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, could you pls evaluate if it is still a stub? thanks dm (talk) 22:38, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of List of Liberty ships: A-F/Temp
A proposed deletion template has been added to the article List of Liberty ships: A-F/Temp, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process
 * Subpages are not allowed in the mainspace. This temp page is still lingering here. If it is better than the actual version, then move the code there. This page is currently only linked from another list, not from the other three Liberty Ship lists, so it is not very accessible anyway.

All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because, even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. Fram (talk) 14:09, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I am fine with that temporary working version being deleted, having served its purpose a long time ago. I just removed the one link to it from a mainspace article. doncram (talk) 17:19, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

MPS list generator
I've written a generator for MPS lists. It's at this link. Each entry has two links after it: one to just list the properties, and the other to generate a full list that looks like the county list format. I used that generator to create Reinforced-Concrete Highway Bridges in Minnesota MPS. I also added text to that article to explain why those particular bridges were selected and to explain the criteria used for selection. I could probably add more from the MPS document, although it starts to get long-winded. They don't go all the way back to Ancient Rome to explain how cement was discovered, but they go pretty close.

Anyway, that article is sort of what I'm thinking about for the non-county MPSes. As far as all of those Minnesota county MPSes are concerned, creating an article for the countywide MRA would be rather redundant. Out of the 35 properties listed in National Register of Historic Places listings in Brown County, Minnesota, 22 of them are in the MRA. It would be cleaner just to add an explanation to the Brown County list saying, "22 of these properties were included in the Brown County MRA, a 1979 countywide study of properties eligible for the National Register." Then, we could add a column to the existing Brown County list indicating which ones were included in the MRA. What do you think? --Elkman (Elkspeak) 14:21, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Gettysburg Address
It was a good suggestion; I made the change. You've been here since 2005: be bold! Kaisershatner (talk) 16:54, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Dunham Hill
Noticed you set up a disambiguatioon page for this. Are you going to check the links to Dunham Hill and edit them to Dunham Hill, Cheshire? If so, an alternative solution may be to go back to the original name for what is Dunham Hill, Cheshire of Dunham-on-the-Hill. DDStretch   (talk)  17:16, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the message. Yes, I'll do the cleaning up to make sure no stragglers are left. Thanks.  DDStretch    (talk)  18:58, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Apology
I apologize for my hot-headedness and hope there is no ill-feelings. I will disengage myself from the discussion on the name of the wikiproject/article. Wadester16 is more than capable of defending it. I hope in the future there can be collaboration on articles between us. I dont wish for any escalation, ill-will, or anything of the sort. Wikipedia should be a happy place to contribute. I dont wish for you to feel bullied. So this will be my last posting on this subject, unless you wish to contact me on my talk page to discuss any specific points you wish to for clarification or my opinion. I hope a compromise is reached soon. Thank you and I sincerly apologize.Camelbinky (talk) 04:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Alaska
[leaving an identical note on Sanfranman59's talk page] I'm almost done putting Alaska into tables; only Anchorage, Kodiak Island, Matanuska-Susitna, and Valdez-Cordova are left. There are enough sites that it really needs to be split; because there are only 29 boroughs and census areas (one of which, [{Wade Hampton Census Area, Alaska|]], has no sites at all), I'd like to give each borough and census area its own page, like Pennsylvania and Wyoming have. One problem, however: how should we name the pages? No problems with places such as North Slope Borough, Aleutians West Census Area, Denali Borough, or Prince of Wales-Outer Ketchikan Census Area, but some of these boroughs (Anchorage, Juneau, Sitka, Skagway, and Wrangell) are city-and-borough (like Philadelphia and San Francisco), and they have unusual naming formats — just look at their articles and you'll see what I mean. I'm leaning toward "National Register of Historic Places listings in _____ City and Borough, Alaska", except for Anchorage, which would be "National Register of Historic Places listings in the Municipality of Anchorage, Alaska". What do you think? Nyttend (talk) 14:53, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for advice; still waiting on Sanfranman. I've finished putting on the tables, and I might be able to begin with the separate pages tonight.  Nyttend (talk) 22:33, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I've completed the split-out; see NRHP in Alaska by borough and census area for the links. I finally realised that if we can have "NRHP listings in Philadelphia", rather than "NRHP listings in Philadelphia County", we could also have "NRHP listings in Sitka" etc.  You've done a lot with adding pictures; could you go through the borough/census area lists and pick out a few to place on the state list?  Nyttend (talk) 01:29, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I did Alaska because I knew that it had no tables and I assumed that it would have the fewest sites :-) I've replied on WT:NRHP to your notes; I don't believe that the categories thing is a problem.  Nyttend (talk) 04:49, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You lose. North Dakota has 409 — you miscounted Stark County, and then the three that weren't in tables I found in recent listings and tableised.  Nyttend (talk) 07:08, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Would you be able to upgrade the Alaska directory page to your normal high-quality format? There's a potential problem with the clickable map: the current map is outdated in not showing either Skagway or Wrangell as the separate boroughs that they have recently become.  Nyttend (talk) 02:45, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, although i like maps a lot, i have never made one, and can't really help. I was only recently getting guidance that would help me towards creating a clickable map for New York State, but i haven't done even that.  Thanks for the flattery though, however ill-deserved. :) doncram (talk) 02:50, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What I meant was essentially "although you might not be able to make this map, could you do the rest"? Nyttend (talk) 03:41, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Birnirk Site
I'm really unhappy: not with you, but because I'm quite disappointed to find that all these pictures aren't necessarily PD-USGOV. I know that being hosted on a US gov't website doesn't make something PD, but I had assumed (admittedly without seeing anything on the website that says this) that they were all taken by NPS employees as part of some program to improve coverage of NHLs. As for your concerns about how to present this: I quite appreciate how you did it — I too want to see copyrighted files removed quickly, and I don't quite see how you could have told me any other way. In connection with this, I've nominated File:Menoken Indian Village Site.jpg for deletion, because it comes with credit also. Thanks, too, for the link to the explanation; without it I might have been a little more confused. Just one question: do you think that I can assume that an uncredited picture, such as this, is safe? Nyttend (talk) 13:40, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Belated thanks
I wanted to thank you for your contributions to Peer review/Alberta and Great Waterways Railway scandal/archive1. I only just noticed them—I must have missed them when they first showed up on my watchlist—and I think they're generally very helpful. I'll likely ruminate on them for a week or so before I make another major stab at improving the article, but your comments were very much the sort of thing I was looking for, and I think they'll prove very helpful. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 22:38, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Joseph and Mary Jane League House
When you have a chance, would you try opening the nomination reference in this article? I can't open it properly, and I'd like to be sure it's not just my computer before sending an e-mail to the nps website. Thanks. Lvklock (talk) 23:38, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Church of the Nazarene (disambiguation)
Hey there. I'm a participant in the WikiProject Church of the Nazarene. What cleanup needs to be done for Church of the Nazarene (disambiguation)? I'm just curious, unless you think I could help somehow, as well. --Aepoutre (talk) 03:05, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Syracuse Wikiproject
"The Syracuse WikiProject was 100% dead, after the first 20 or so members put in a lot of effort. Not one ever piped up once, after i joined, and it has been lonely, poor me :("
 * Hey....what am I? Chopped liver? ;) Lvklock (talk) 05:27, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oops, i didnt think anyone was watching there. Well, it has been pretty quiet, just u doing a favor for me by being there, and Zewrestler for a while, and new guy. :) doncram (talk) 05:29, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

NRHP numbers
I can't seem to find my source for NRHP numbers by state. Several months ago I read that MA had the second highest number after NY. Maybe the claim was an unreferenced edit that was removed from wikipedia. Sorry for the unsubstantiated fact (although I attempted to count the number in MA). Good luck finding a source...feel free to modify my count. Swampyank (talk) 03:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

New Bedford HD PR
Don,

Thanks for doing that ... I had realized only after the bot made its comment that I had forgotten to proof it before doing so, and left an awful lot to be desired. You caught many of the things I did when I printed it out, and in time (soon, I hope) I will be implementing them and listing it for GA.

While I have spent most of the past two weeks on-wiki working on other areas, I'm ready to go back to NRHP soon and have already uploaded a picture I took in MD this summer. I also got some more pics last week at Wikipedia Takes the Subway! and Saturday in Hartford at that meetup. Daniel Case (talk) 19:24, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for all your suggestions, which I just implemented (I colored in the water areas of the map, which the OpenStreetMap contributors didn't do (as is often the case)) and added a nice long quote from Moby-Dick (plus also referencing the service from the book to better explain what the Seamen's Bethel is all about). The only thing I couldn't do was go into detail about the privateering acts that led the British to burn the city in retaliation, as the source I was using (the nomination) doesn't go into detail about that.

I have now nominated it for GA. In its current form I don't see it going further than that; to reach FA-level (to me) would require going into greater historical detail and more about the current issues in the district. Perhaps if Swampyank or I are able to get source material on that at some future point, we can do it then.
 * It just got passed! This has made my week. Daniel Case (talk) 18:50, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Once again, thanks very much for your proofreading and suggestions. You are an invaluable and sharp-eyed copyeditor and I really appreciate that! Daniel Case (talk) 19:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Dubois-Sarles Octagon
Finally got the pic uploaded and in the article and lists. From the NRHP app I got the detail about the sidehall plan, which should make a DYK, too. Daniel Case (talk) 23:20, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

National Register of Historic Places listings in Denver, Colorado
I notice you've been working on this list. It looks great. It IS taking quite a while to load, as it's a long one. Lvklock (talk) 22:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, i'm going to leave it for a local to divide geographically within Denver County and/or Denver City if that is different, later. Thanks for noticing. doncram (talk) 22:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't blame you. I've never been to Denver, so I wouldn't have a clue how to divide it! Lvklock (talk) 20:12, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Brown Palace
Do you know of another Brown Palace Hotel coming into being? I've never heard of one other than the famous one. --ScreaminEagle (talk) 00:33, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh? Hmm, well i hear that the Palace Lounge at the Brown Palace Hotel (Mobridge, South Dakota) is quite the place to visit.... doncram (talk) 01:13, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Apology?
Ok, but her help on the stubs of NY state show that she doesnt know anything about the state and the way municipalities are run. I understand quite well what she is saying about stubs, she is did not understand from the beginning about the five counties of NY not really being counties, then in the middle of the discussion she goes to have a name change of the five NYC county stub templates to the borough names and messes up the Bronx's name (it IS "the Bronx" not "Bronx", that's not my opinion, its fact). NY stub templates should be made and maintained and names decided by the NY wikiproject. Ill use this example from wikiproject guidelines- if you create an article and are deciding to put it into a wikiproject by putting the banner on the talk page, and do so, then a member/members of the wikiproject removing it from the wikiproject you are to keep the banner off because the wikiproject has priority over deciding what articles are included, not the creators or individual editors of any articles. That deals with wikiproject banners but in my opinion I think the same courtesy should apply to the use, creation, and applying of stub templates, it shouldnt be up to some self-appointed stub dictator, it should be up to the most relevant wikiproject how they wish to do stubs on their articles. I'm sure she did a great job on other stubs. In this case she doesnt know how the relevant topic is organized, if you dont do your homework you cant do a good job.Camelbinky (talk) 15:13, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Coming across this discussion by accident, I just wanted to remind both of you: stubs are maintained and overseen, not by local wikiprojects, but by the WikiProject Stub sorting, of which Pegship is an active member — not the dictator. Nyttend (talk) 16:24, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * First of all- "the Bronx" is the OFFICIAL name of the BOROUGH, Bronx if the official name of the county. Did you bother reading the entire article before you accused me of saying an opinion as a fact? As for anything else, be specific about ANYTHING and if you want EVERYTHING that you think I put as a fact but is really opinion. If i put something forth as a fact, most likely it is, take time to do homework. As for the comment that wikiprojects should deal with the stubs, look at how I wrote it, I did write it as an OPINION, I put "I think" right there. And regardless of wiki-guidelines I still believe (an opinion) that stubs should be relegated to the appropriate wikiproject to determine how they wish to categorize articles and that a wikiproject stubs is not the appropriate place. That wikiguideline may change some day, who knows? Until then of course I respect wikiguidelines, doesnt mean I have to agree with them or say they are the best way to do things. I have the right to say "I believe this is a better way" without "looking like an idiot".Camelbinky (talk) 16:55, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * For anyone else watching, I gave Camelbinky some feedback at his Talk page regarding his comment above, including that I think he has stated opinions as facts and has made overstatements. I never said anything about anyone looking like an idiot, i believe that Camelbinky's use of quote marks just now is meant to indicate that it is what he perceives i or others have thought about him, it is not a quote from elsewhere, I believe.  For an example of what i was talking about, i believe that the first sentence in the comment above "Ok, but her help on the stubs of NY state show that she doesnt know anything about the state and the way municipalities are run," is an overstatement and insulting and not a fact.  For another example, the sentence "NY stub templates should be made and maintained and names decided by the NY wikiproject," is stated as a "should" statement without any qualifying "I think".  I simply gave Camelbinky some feedback, and he is free to accept or reject it for the time being. doncram (talk) 17:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * When I am having a discussion with someone, I am speaking for and to them, not anyone else who has nothing better to do than read a conversation between two other people. You did make a comment on my talk page regarding my intelligence, unless I simply read too much into the way you wrote it. As far as "should" it means the same as "I think" I do not need to qualify the word should. Do some research on grammar. As far as facts versus opinions- I am referring to actual FACTS if I state something about another person then obviously that is an opinion, I shouldnt have to qualify every statement I make, people tend to be able to tell the difference. But if I state the population of a municipality or make a comment on the type of government of a municipality that is A FACT and you have all the right in the world not to believe me, but if you are too lazy or stubborn to look up the complete facts and dispute it then dont call me a liar or exagerator. You disputed "the Bronx" as being the proper borough name by pulling out that the name of the county is just Bronx, you failed to read the rest of the article past the first paragraph where it went into detail as to the difference or check the discussion page and see the discussion on where another person brought up that the article should not have the word "the" in the title and where (people other than me) informed that person as to why the word "the" needed to be in the title. I am simply asking you to verify facts fully before you accuse me of exagerating or stating an opinion as a fact. If I called you an idiot for how you have talked to me everyone who is nosy and reading this would know that is an opinion and not a fact, I wouldnt have to qualify it, but if I state I have a bachelors in poli sci and working on my masters in history then that is a fact and not an opinion whether anyone believes me or not. I dont have to qualify either statements for people to know which is which, I dont know why you seem to have that problem. I'm done with this discussion, I have already spent over a week from wikipedia just because I was getting so upset with this insane highschool-like drama with you. Just dont bother me again please unless it is a real legitimate question.Camelbinky (talk) 21:45, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Yet another comment
Or two, rather...As far as Denver, it's a consolidated city-county — everything in the city is in the county and vice versa, so you can't split them. I noticed on the state page that somehow Boulder and Denver Counties had gotten confused and corrected what I found; was this the problem?


 * I don't know what you are referring to, about Boulder and Denver being confused. Yes, i have worked on separate list-articles List of RHPs in Denver and List of RHPs in Boulder, both split out of List of RHPs in CO.  They are different cities/counties/whatever. doncram (talk) 16:32, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

As far as Hawaii: I had the idea of splitting the list by islands, rather than by counties; after all, the geography of the state is rather different from the rest of the country. What do you think of that? I can do it if you think it would be a good idea. Nyttend (talk) 16:16, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, please allow me to keep working on Hawaii to get it into stable condition; i have an UnderConstruction tag on it to indicate I am not ready yet.  There is an issue about what is the relevant county (if any) for two ones.  There are other research/editing issues still open, it will take me a few days to address them.  And, it may be that Hawaii all fits in one article (not clear yet as i have not finished first-pass editing.  Or that Hawaiian locals may have something to say.  Anyhow, please don't split it up without discussion at its talk page.  Thanks! doncram (talk) 16:32, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * To reply to both — in this edit I fixed the error that I meant might be causing confusion; the Boulder County header had a See also-NRHP listings in Denver County. While I was at it, you can see, I also solved the Broomfield issue, but that's another issue.  As far as Hawaii — sorry for imprecise wording, as I didn't mean to suggest turning the state page into something like Alaska or Pennsylvania have.  Rather, I meant having separate tables by islands (one table for Hawaii, one for Molokai, one for Oahu, etc.) on the state page, instead of having one table for Hawaii County, one for Maui County, one for Honolulu County, etc.  You say that there's an issue for two: do you mean the Northwest Pacific Islands?  See this map: everything past Kauai, Niihau, and the little one next to them is Honolulu County.  Nyttend (talk) 17:01, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks about the Northwest islands map, yes that was what i was wondering about, to verify/identify what county those 2 ones are in. Also, okay, thanks about the Boulder-Denver thing then.  About Broomfield, thanks for looking into it.  I don't see how you concluded that Broomfield has no NRHPs, although that may well be/probably is the correct conclusion.  For example, there could be NRHP listings in Denver, which was in Denver then but are in Broomfield now, that still show in NRIS as being in Denver.  Did you review the Google map and determine that there are no coordinates showing within the Broomfield borders?  I don't see how to do that easily, as Google often does not show town/county jurisdiction lines. doncram (talk) 17:27, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm confused: how would any Denver sites be listed in Broomfield? Of course we could have coordinates issues (a couple of weeks ago I discovered two Massachusetts sites that were supposedly in Ecuador :-) but it's not like they border — see Denver and Broomfield maps.  I searched through the listings at nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com and found no sites that were listed as being located in Broomfield; checking nr.nps (which wouldn't load on my computer earlier) confirms this.  It was a city well before it became its own county, so I'm sure that any sites located there would have been listed as Broomfield.  Nyttend (talk) 19:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way, Mapquest shows county lines. Nyttend (talk) 19:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks about Mapquest, i will try to remember that. About Denver/Broomfield, i had assumed (apparently incorrectly) that Denver county was one of the counties that Broomfield was carved out of.  The Broomfield, Colorado article states 4 other counties that it was carved out of.  But, it also states that the city grew by multiple annexations over the years (I am not sure, but i don't think the timing and geographical scope of specific annexations is given).  So, a site could have been listed on the NRHP in one of those other counties, and then the area was annexed.  NRIS is usually not updated for such things, as has been shown abundantly in many other locales, so the site easily could still appear in the National Register as being part of a different county and perhaps under a different city/town name.  So, i just would not be completely sure yet that there are no NRHP listings in what is now Broomfield. doncram (talk) 20:01, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * To add some other info, just looking at the Google map for List of RHPs in Boulder, one of the southeasterly-most ones is National Fuel something, in Louisville, Colorado. That town seems to still be in Boulder County, but the town locator map in its article has not been updated for the separation of Broomfield County in 2001.  Its map shows Boulder County's southeast corner as being square.  Not sure what to do about that, though this does not seem to be a case where the indiv property is now in Broomfield.  We could look at other nearby listings in each of the 4 counties, too. doncram (talk) 20:10, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

[unindent] I'd not thought of the annexation thing. As long as it's actually in Louisville, it's definitely not in Boulder: I can't imagine that it would have been disincorporated without something having been put on its article; and you'd have to disincorporate it and annex part of it to Broomfield before it could be included. Still, that doesn't say anything about the locations that are simply nearby but aren't actually *in* places such as Louisville — not to mention in other directions, where there might not be anything incorporated against the Broomfield County line. Nyttend (talk) 20:20, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Brunner
I have taken the time to fill in much of Jennifer Brunner's life history.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:48, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Infobox NRHP3
No one has really responded on WT:NRHP about the proposed update to the infoboxes. I think, though, we will actually be able to copy NRHP3 code to NRHP2 without consensus.. they're completely backwards-compatible. (whereas NRHP2/3 and the original NRHP have a few subtle differences). I can copy NRHP3 to NRHP2 as soon as possible, but I remember you were talking about using a bot to change all the articles on which NRHP2 is transcluded to use the "nrhp_type=____" format. Do you think you'll be able to do this? As soon as all the articles are using that format, I can delete the nhl=yes code, shrinking the infobox size drastically. Then I can work on updating the NRHP2 documentation, which will make the transfer to the original NRHP infobox much easier. I was just looking for your thoughts. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 00:15, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I think I've pretty much gotten all the bugs I can see in infobox nrhp2 worked out. I found a compatibility flaw with the original infobox nrhp that I missed, but I applied a patch fixing the compatibility, so I'm 99.99% sure it's completely backwards compatible now. I went through part of a list of articles on which nrhp2 is transcluded today, and I converted about 60 to the new format with no problem whatsoever. I didn't convert any infobox nrhp ones yet, though, because I'd like to get all the nrhp2 ones to the new format first, so I can delete the old code. I think there are just over 1400 nrhp2 articles (of which not all have nrhp_types, though, so probably a net 900-1000 articles) to convert to the new format, and I could probably tackle that in about a month haha, but I'm going through and individually editing each article. If you could explain to me what this AWB is that you were talking about, I may be able to make some use of it and take a little of the burden off of you, but I'd like to have all of the articles in the new format by the end of the month at latest. Do you think you could explain to me how to use AWB? --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 06:13, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * So I definitely have a Mac haha; therefore, I can't use AWB. Looks like I'll stick with going to articles one at a time. I updated the list with the ones I did last night. Thanks! --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 18:12, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Re: Photos for the List of Registered Historic Places in Vermont
Hi there, sorry it's been months since you posted about photos for more places for the List of Registered Historic Places in Vermont - I'll definitly look through those lists, and when able, get some more pictures done! Thanks for letting me know about the lists. -- PenelopeIsMe 16:43, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Appomattox articles
Your input would be appreciated at Jones Law Office and Woodson Law Office.--Doug Coldwell talk 18:37, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I commented at Articles for deletion/Woodson Law Office and Jones Law Office, and added NRHP PDF reference which could used to craft specific assertions of importance, the most importance missing elements in my view. doncram (talk) 22:50, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank you. That document is great! I had to print out the 64 page PDF document to be able to study it. It is full of it - good stuff! Just wanted to clairify what I meant. I am working with it now. Noticed you are correcting the info boxes - thanks much. I had good intentions anyway. I can work from there since you set me on track. Also will follow up on your question. --Doug Coldwell talk 21:54, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to stick my oar in and say that that was one of the most eloquent commentaries I've ever read on here; I think you put your finger on a lot of things that I wanted to say, but which I didn't know how to put into words. Excellent work. --User:AlbertHerring Io son l'orecchio e tu la bocca: parla! 19:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Reply to your comment on my talk page
(This is continuing a discussion opened here. --Doncram)

Caveat: I don't have time right now for Wikipedia, including posting this comment.

I don't perceive that there is any dispute between us that would justify a third party's taking their time to attempt to mediate.

As near as I can tell, you don't like me, and any time I disagree with you, you take it personally. Be assured that I do not intend to offend you, and if I state a disagreement with you it is because I disagree with the substance of something you said or did -- it does not represent a personal judgment about you. In my discussions of Wikipedia content, I endeavor at all times to avoid making ad hominem judgments and arguments -- I make judgments and I comment based on "whats" (the merits of the issue), not based on "whos" (the personalities or reputations of the other parties -- with the notable exception of certain persistent vandals). In my experience at Wikipedia (well over 27,000 edits over a period of more than 2 years), you are not the only good-faith contributor with whom I have had "dust-ups", but (as far as I know) you are the only good-faith contributor who has stayed mad at me.

Yes, I have gotten sarcastic with you recently, but I believe that your behavior toward me in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places (e.g., changing the subject of the conversation) has been trolling, and that my response has actually been pretty mild. I know that you are working in good faith to contribute content, create templates and categories, etc., but it seems to me that your behavior toward me is inconsistent with your good intentions toward Wikipedia. --Orlady (talk) 04:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * You've said a lot here, and it is so highly loaded that I won't/can't respond to all of it. Let me say that I appreciate you sharing that, despite my seeing a number of assertions and assumptions in what you say that I could take issue with.  To clear the air a little, perhaps:  I don't dislike you personally.  I do resent what I perceive to be bullying on your part vs. me and others.  I've learned not to take much of what you say personally, however, in the sense that I observe you also treat others in the same way you treat me.  I think the way you speak is often highly uncivil in its intent and often in its language.  About the specific accusation of my "trolling" by changing the subject, I am dumbfounded.  I think you must be referring to the discussion at wt:NRHP which you opened to discuss renaming some state level and other categories, and you are taking issue with the fact that I wanted to discuss also what the category names should be for related county-level and other geographical area categories.  You seem there to be inexplicably committed to limiting the discussion to some narrow vision you had about what the discussion should be about, beforehand.  Honestly, that seems excessively controlling and antithetical to working to build the encyclopedia.  I do feel a need to get some other editors help via mediation or some other semi-formal process, because your and my communication style issues or whatever seems to be a bigger problem than you and i can discuss and resolve between us.  I appreciate you explaining that you have tried to be pretty mild.  While I don't necessarily experience you as being mild, I guess I have to understant that it would be worse if you were not showing restraint.  I have tried in the past, and do let's both try in the future, to be mild in responding. doncram (talk) 19:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Just a quick hit-and-run comment from a complete outsider: It looks like an extreme difference in communication styles to me, something that often causes problems where people can't see each others' faces or hear each others' voices, and even don't know much about each others' personal backgrounds. Basically you both have found out about that on your own, but perhaps it helps to hear it from someone else, too. Good luck! --Hans Adler (talk) 10:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Doncram, I'm trying to overlook the recent silliness regarding Rochelle Heights and communicate some observations I had made lately. Some of your recent comments on the NRHP talk page made it clear that you pay relatively little attention to categories -- basically, you don't care about them. Thus, when I posted a comment about the need to correct the names of several specific NRHP categories, you perceived it as a generic discussion about "categories for NRHP topics" and you tossed in several diverse thoughts that you had on the general topic of categories. I perceived your comments as off-topic, and I misinterpreted your persistence in pushing the matter as an attempt to derail the discussion. I now recognize that what I interpreted to be malice was merely lack of awareness.

As you may or may not be aware, I am not a template developer (although I've created a couple of real simple templates) and I am generally uninterested in infoboxes, navboxes, and other types of templates that many Wikipedians enjoy (to the contrary, I think many such templates are annoyances, but I try to stay out of the way of the people who love them). Consider how you would have reacted if I had wandered into this discussion that you started, perceived it to be a general discussion on "NRHP templates", and inserted a lengthy treatise urging the NRHP Wikiproject to develop a series of color-coded navbox templates for NRHP-listed churches, cemeteries, ships, and jails, as well as a series of navboxes for NRHP-listed properties grouped by architectural style. You would have correctly chided me for being off-topic, and you likely would have (appropriately) moved the comment into a new section of the talk page in order to separate the unrelated discussion topics. Later, you would have become extremely peeved when I complained about having my comments moved, moved them back to the middle of the discussion on infobox mergers, and started discussing my ideas about which images should illustrate each of the proposed navboxes. Now you should have a pretty good idea how I felt about your treatment of the discussion that I attempted to start. --Orlady (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I appreciate that you commented here again, and that you've reinterpreted my comments in that discussion about categories. You are correct that i am not a categories person.  As I recall it, I was actually meaning to be helpful to you, to be supporting you in having some discussion in the Talk section you opened.  I often have not commented at all in category-related discussion sections at wt:NRHP, and made an exception out of, like, charity, actually.  I hesitated in responding here in part because i wondered if I should explain that point or not.  I don't mean to imply that you need my charity or for you to otherwise take offense.  I'm just trying to share what my thinking was.  Anyhow, your posting from Jan 26 had received no response, and you had just added further to it yourself on January 29.  See my first edit in that discussion, showing at very bottom of this Jan 29 version of page.  In what i wrote, I gave you some grief about process, which i feel/felt was legitimately due, about your calling for voting, and I questioned whether you really wanted to have discussion.  I recall that I meant that in a friendly enough way, that you deserved being given some grief, then we/others could go on and discuss whatever you meant to talk about.  And i made a point to include some content discussion.  What i could offer content-wise was somewhat related, although perhaps not what you were immediately asking for, but i believe i thought it a) was about content not process and b) would suffice to open a broader discussion.  I don't want to revisit it all blow by blow after that, but I recall believing that my comment did generate some others' participation.  I was not totally surprised, but I experienced your responses to me as attacking and unfriendly.  Note I had opened my comment "If you are serious about having a discussion...", with kind of a take-it-or-leave-it way.  But i thought you specifically were misinterpreting my comments, and labelling me negatively, and I chose to try to defend my earlier or later remarks and to clarify how they were relevant and so on, and not as you labelled them.  I recall thinking also that you were unduly harsh about Daniel Case's comment, too, which was also touched on my type of concern, that a category for use in practice is needed.  The last straw for me was when it appeared to me that you acknowledged you did not give a s--- about developing NRHP articles, you emphasized you had (in my view) a really narrow concern.  It seemed to me that you proved that you really never wanted any human interaction and discussion at all.  So, even then, I tried to be essentially polite and move the category issue that i had taken an interest in, to a different discussion section.  I hope these further comments are helpful to you. doncram (talk) 01:05, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Tollackson Mound Group
Hi-I added some citations and cleared up some confusion on what town of Harmony in Wisconsin the mound group is located which is Vernon County, Wisconsin-please take a look at it.Thanks-RFD (talk) 12:12, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Las Trampas, New Mexico
Just curious about your edit summary, is something about to be merged into it? Nyttend (talk) 14:03, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, i guess you mean my edit of NRHP2 infobox in the Las Trampas, New Mexico article. Edit summary was "edit NRHP2 infobox for upcoming merger compatibility, other using AWB".  No there is nothing to be merged into this article, my summary was refering to the merger of NRHP2 infobox with NRHP infobox, in process with discussion here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places.  I guess the edit label is misleading.  I'll try to use something more descriptive in my next bout of AWB editing of the NRHP2 infoboxes.  Thanks! doncram (talk) 18:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Email
Sorry I haven't gotten back to you about that ... it has been on my list but there has been enough to do this week, what with all the things Matisse has asked me to do to get the GA for New Bedford Historic District.

I have had email enabled since I first registered my account. However, since not everyone is aware of the contact via the link on the left of the page, I have added the userbox for it. Feel free to use it whenever you want. Daniel Case (talk) 03:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Babcock-Shattuck House
I changed the neighborhood listed for this house in the Syracuse list. It was listed as Meadowbrook, but I can tell for sure that it's further west than Meadowbrook. What I can't decide for sure is whether it's Westcott or Near Eastside, as E Genesee St is the border between the two neighborhoods. I picked Near Eastside because the property was at one time owned by the Eastside Neighborhood In Partnership. Seem okay to you? Lvklock (talk) 11:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I ended up including both neighborhoods for the places on a border street. Lvklock (talk) 08:10, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Appomattox Court House National Historical Park
Question: On the National Register of Historic Places Registration Form for Appomattox Court House Park I noticed on the bottom of the first page it is signed by a Patrick Arduis for Signature of the Keeper. Would that person then be the author of the document? The publisher we know is the National Park Service. The Date of Action being June 26, 1989. Wouldn't these then give us the "date" and "author"? --Doug Coldwell talk 13:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Nope. The keeper is not the preparer of the document.  I've written out some of the practices in describing these documents at wp:NRHPMOS.  But briefly, the practice we've mostly been following is to credit the preparers of the document and to use their date of preparation, appearing in Section 11 (missing from the online version of your document), rather than other date-stamps and signatures later.  I hope that you will please request a full copy of the document by email request to nr_reference (at) nps.gov.  Provide them your postal address.  Be clear in your request that you want the missing section 11 and a complete document, that you are already aware that a partial version of the document is available on-line.  Well, actually for Virginia documents, the state of Virginia also provides copies, sometimes different, so you should check its site too.  There's a link to the Virginia state's document system within the guidance by state section of wp:NRHP. doncram (talk) 14:19, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, you're in luck: the Virginia state system has the document, and it shows Section 11.  The Virginia system is at http://www.dhr.virginia.gov/registers/register_counties_cities.htm, you just drill down in Appomattox county to the document in question.  I will now revise the reference within the Jones Law Office article to refer to the URL of this version of the document and to show author and date of preparation.  It may be semi-complicated as i have to pick which associated photos documents, from VA's system or the Federal one, to include as part of the same reference.  Please feel free use this revised reference in the related articles.  Sorry, i didn't think to check the VA state system before, it has been a while since i used it. doncram (talk) 14:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Great! Asked the Park historian anyway for a copy. I know he is working on the previous questions we submitted to him, which I suspect he will answer in the next couple of days. --Doug Coldwell talk 14:35, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Delisting?
First Church of Christ, Scientist (Anita, Iowa) says that it was added (either under that name or under the name of Anita Public Library) to the NRHP in 1979. However, as I'm finishing drawing up Elkman tables for all of Iowa, I find that the property isn't in the NRHP database under either name. Could it have been delisted? When I put the reference number into Elkman, I get a note that "This property may not actually be listed on the National Register - listing code is DR". Nyttend (talk) 17:45, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thinking on this note, by the way, I was curious about delistings. Twenty Iowa counties have at least one delisted property (some very recently, most not), and I'd like to see them in little tables in a way similar to that of McKean County, Pennsylvania.  Can you help me do this once I place the tables on the Iowa counties?  I'm going to leave this message also on Dtbohrer's talk page, as s/he placed such a table on the McKean County list.  Nyttend (talk) 18:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm curious how you know that there are 20 Iowa counties with delistings, how you know which are the delisted properties. Is it only by encountering the DR message now available in Elkman's infobox generator for each one, individually checked?  What would be most helpful if our super-hero, "E"-man, :) could be persuaded to generate a table report of the 1500+ NRHPs delisted nationwide, with the usual fields including counties.  We could cut that up for use where appropriate. doncram (talk) 20:39, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Look at the Iowa list: someone went through these and noted the delisted ones. What I mean is the ones shown as "delisted" or "removed" on that list, some of which were removed several years ago.  Whether or not they were really on there in the first place or not isn't a problem for sourcing at the moment: as I told Dtbohrer, I'm going to hide the deleted ones so that they don't mess up the page when they don't have their own table.  Nyttend (talk) 22:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, well i don't know if you mean to hide them in comments; i'd prefer to see them moved (with their town and county identifying info) to the talk page, or wouldn't it just be easy to start a table for each one?  It's very easy, just cut-and-paste and a very little editing.  I will be glad to do that part if you table-ized the counties, leaving those just where they are.  I'd do it now but that would be weird to put them into tables while the current NRHPs were not table-ized. doncram (talk) 22:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I suggest moving further discussion to Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in Iowa. I commented further there, and started a table. doncram (talk) 22:49, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

On the subject of Iowa...
I've placed a PROD on Sioux Falls, Iowa (which you created), the officially listed site of the Blood Run Site. It's an error: if you look at the GNIS, there is no such site, and it's on the South Dakota border just a few miles away from Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I've replaced the Sioux Falls link with one to Granite, the closest Iowa community. Nyttend (talk) 19:45, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * okay, thanks for looking into it. Hopefully the discrepancy is added to wp:NRIS info issues, yes? doncram (talk) 19:58, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I hadn't interpreted it as an "error", as it's clearly in the vicinity of Sioux Falls, and likely closer to it than to any specific place in Iowa. Same with a couple of sites somewhere in Kansas (Doniphan County perhaps) that are listed with Rulo, Nebraska.  I'm not sure where it would go: wrong city, perhaps?  Nyttend (talk) 23:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The error is in NRIS, that Blood Run Site is located in/near: Sioux Falls, IA. I am assuming you are correct that Sioux Falls IA does not exist.  NRIS, via Elkman tools, also shows the site is in/near Shindlar, SD.  Also there may be error in NHL webpage, haven't checked that. doncram (talk) 23:38, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Another user has just deprodded the article, saying that sites like this also prove its existence. I still don't believe it; if you put "Sioux City Iowa" into Google, you'll see tons of results, but they yield confusing results: for example, this story seems to say that there's a Sioux City, Iowa municipal police department, which clearly there can't be if it's not a municipality, and I can't imagine how in the world there could be such a city without being noticed by the Census, the GNIS, or Google Maps.  I also encountered this website, an engineering firm in Sioux Falls, SD that includes the statement "We are civil engineers serving the Sioux Falls, Iowa area for over 35 years"; and this page that says that the Five Ridge Prairie State Preserve is located in Sioux Falls, even though it's actually in Plymouth County, two counties south of the area in question.  With all of this, I'm taking it to be a vague and informal way of referring to the parts of Iowa closest to Sioux Falls, as if for some reason we talked about "Carson City, California" or something like that.  I'm looking to file an AFD later today.  What do you think?  Nyttend (talk) 18:07, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, weird, if in fact it is a locally used informal term. However, multiple google hits may point to information that is not independent, as you know.  Like, if NRIS has an error (and it has many, as we document at wp:NRIS info issues, then it can be assured that Archiplanet.com and www.nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com will state the same erroneous info.  About the engineering firm, even that could be a pitifully misinformed marketing effort from some engineering firm that is willing to work anywhere.  I would try to call them and ask where they are actually located, to find out what the story on that one is.  It could be addressed in an AfD, i guess that is an appropriate process that would provide a permanent record of this kind of discussion. doncram (talk) 19:02, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Would you please offer your opinion at the AFD? Nyttend (talk) 04:17, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Drake Circus
For reasons I don't understand, there is a whole department-store full of socks that like to whine, edit-war, spam, clone, and even spontaneously reverse roles about that location and shopping centre. The Drake Circus article was already deleted via AfD though I think a viable article could be written and that the existing redirect of the location to the new mall is kinda off-topic. An article that clearly asserts and cites notability would be great! Given article history though, it's best to put it in userspace until it's viable, then deletion-review to overcome the previous AfD. I know it's silly...should just be able to write a viable article that solves the previously-deleted article's shortcomings (which makes it explicitly not speedy-deletable), but given the history here, gotta jump through some hoops:( DMacks (talk) 20:19, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I imagine part of the problem is that the place, obviously notable in the eyes of some (and I am inclined to agree), is a redirect to a shopping mall which many dislike and/or question its notability.  That's kind of insulting to them, probably.  I just added a hangon and now an underconstruction tag and appealed for peace and some time and all that at the Talk page;  i think it is best to create this out in mainspace.  But if you or someone else chooses to delete, I am okay with that and could jump through hoops.  Have not ever done a deletion review before, i take it that is some kind of appeals process.  Would have to look it up and familiarize myself with that, too, besides working just on the article.  Anyhow, i can't do more right now.  Will see what happens. doncram (talk) 20:28, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * An article which "insults" some people? Since when has that been a proviso for addition to or deletion from WP? Regardless, so far nothing new has been included in the article that wasn't there before. Likewise once again there are statements made in the current version about the alleged boundaries of the so-called area. What triggered the AfD last time was when those same boundaries were included closer scrutiny showed that there isn't actually an official "area" known as Drake Circus. It's just one short anonymous road in North Hill. The museum and planetarium may well be notable but so far none of the SU troublemakers have bothered to create those articles, even so their presence does not make the "area"/road notable. This all came out in the AfD and the subsequent discussion on the relevant talk pages. The current article isn't even referenced properly. I can see this ending up at yet another AfD and wasting yet more time for everyone concerned. --Web H amster  01:26, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for commenting. I don't know what "SU" refers to here.  By insulting, i meant in the sense of insulting their intelligence and what they know and feel.  Perhaps i should have said "frustrating".  I can imagine it is highly frustrating for locals who "know" that the term has always referred to a location, not a shopping centre, to have wikipedia editors engage in bureaucratic processes which are hard to fathom, and end up appearing to reject the existence of the place.  By the way, i often work on historic site articles and generally defer to locals' preferences about article names for places which are given a different name by the U.S. NRHP program.  I think it is often best to defer to local knowledge about places. doncram (talk) 01:35, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Frustration, though possible is similarly not relevant in the same way insulting isn't. As for local knowledge vs "official" well so long as it's a reputable source and is pertinent I really don't care or mind which one is used. Sorry, SU is the acronym for Student's Union. Normally a hot-bed of dissent for anything that vaguely involves having to stick to the rules. Throw in a well used bar and things like this are inevitable. You will note that a lot of these tete-a-tetes occur in UK's evenings. The crux of the matter is that although the street does contain some possibly notable buildings and events, that alone does not make DC itself notable, as notability isn't inherited, as you are no doubt aware. The fact that it got bombed in the war is non-notable as most of the main UK conurbations also got blitzed. The fact that there is an underground reservoir is again non-notable even though the reservoir itself may be. You can see for yourself from the pics you've included in your rewrite that this road is just a boring sort of street that can be found in any city in the UK. We gave plenty of chances at the last AfD for people/locals/independent editors to come up with anything of note. They were spectacularly unable to do so. I'm afraid this will be the same again. If you wish to waste time on this then please feel free, it's your choice and I have no intention of trying to talk you out of it. All the above is, is a brief synopsis of what happened last time. The other thing that can be guaranteed to happen is that the SPAs, socks and trolls will manage to screw up any good work you will likely do. --Web H amster  01:57, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * all and any attempts to publish academic facts on an area of notable interest are rapidly stamped out by those seeking to promote a shopping mall. If anyone who has stumbled accross this article over the past 2/3 years, then trys to rectify or properly amend the article, they are accused of being a troll, sock puppet, liar, etc by the same 3 editors who continually delete valid references or verifiable facts. Any discussion or debate on the subject is fruitless as these 3 editors know how to game the system and continually extract and delete valid points which expose their ignorance and bias POV. For example it is not an underground reservoir - it is one of the UK's oldest reservoirs built by ir Francis Drake. From what i have read in various history folders, all the deleted points were raised by a vast variety of contributors from Canada, Indonesia, japan, Thailand and the UK - all of whom have been blocked or banned, for no other reason than trying to publish facts that may not sit comfortably with the marketing agenda of a shopping mall.81.132.107.66 (talk) 02:13, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Therein lies the problem. "Notable interest". It seems that your definition bears scant similarity to the WP definition. If this street's article has so much personal importance to you, why not simply create an account. Write an article (that meets WP standards) in your own personal sandbox, then get some experienced editors to cast an eye over it to see if it's suitable for inclusion. That makes so much more sense than all the shouting and huffing and puffing you seem to get more satisfaction from. Just a thought. --Web H amster  02:23, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * if as i did, you search for 'drake circus bomb shelter' in google you will see the parts of the originaldrake circus article and this intresting link exposing the corruption of the same editorswho are now blocking anyone attempting to challenge their spamming activity.81.132.107.66 (talk) 02:49, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey this is the kind of preposterous accusations i was asking for you to stop with. Wikipedia editors are volunteers, and I don't believe any one of them have an investment or other interest in the shopping centre.  How on earth can you mean to say they are "spamming" for something?  A simpler interpretation is they are trying to keep articles which don't meet wikipedia standards out, and within articles they are trying to keep out assertions that are not adequately supported by reliable sources.  I do that too, in other areas of wikipedia.  About the sandbox type of article, that is what i am trying to do in the draft article linked from Talk:Drake Circus.  To the IP editor, too:  your positive suggestions about wording and sources, for an article about the location, would be welcome.  And in particular, can you address my question there about bus routes? doncram (talk) 02:56, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Ye4s I'm aware that you are working on an alternate version which is reasonably different to the one that was deleted under AfD. The problem still remains of notability which unfortunately your rewrite doesn't yet address... regardless of the bus routes :) --Web H amster  13:24, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * So DGG and Smalljim have been blocked or banned, since they were part of the group trying to keep it from deletion? All I can see says that neither has ever been blocked...the IP must have access to a secret source that admins don't.  Nyttend (talk) 03:37, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Huh? That would surprise me very much.  Where does one see that these folks is blocked? doncram (talk) 04:01, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


 * That's my point: they've not. I was trying to be sarcastic; sorry for being confusing.  Nyttend (talk) 04:17, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Time passes
Hi! Well, it's been a week since the last substantive edit to Drake Circus/Temp. I don't think it should be allowed to stay in article space for too long and I reckon the situation has been covered by the combination of Drake (ward), Drake Circus Shopping Centre and Drake Circus, which is now a dab page. So what would you like to happen to your temp article? —S MALL JIM   18:09, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia Loves Art LACMA meetup
Due to some unforgivable confusion on my part, the meetup on Saturday the 28th needs to be rescheduled. Please see Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Loves Art/LACMA rules to vote for a day/time that works best for you. Thank you and I apologize for the inconvenience.  howcheng  {chat} 05:50, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Camp Five
I came upon an article for Camp Five Museum which is shown on the National Register of Historic Places listings in Wisconsin as Camp Five Farmstead. I am drawing it to your attention as a subject you appear to have an interest in and something that I know nothing about. -Secondarywaltz (talk) 01:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXXV (January 2009)
The January 2009 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 03:36, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

NR neighborhoods
Hello. As per your question on my talk page, these neighborhoods are all significant areas within the city of New Rochelle, each designated a 'populated place' by the UGIS system. New Rochelle is a large suburban city which is primarily residential, thus explaining the large number of UGIS 'populated place' designations for the city compared to other cities (within Westchester, it is the only city with so many formal internal area designations). Each of the areas have several thousand residents living within them (at least), which each equates (population wise) to the resident base of neighboring towns such as Bronxville or tuckahoe. They are each larger than many CDP found in NY state (such as in Northern Westchester or Long Island). They also each have distinct attributes ranging from date of development, impetus for development (ie: arrival of railroad line; proximity to neighboring towns/ town centers; more recent subdivision of farm/estate land), as well as various historical connections (ie:Residence Park - dates back to settlement days). Various recognizable institutions are found in these areas as well (ie:residence park - the college of NR; Isle of San Souci - Davenport House/ Lispenard Davenport House). Additionally, the architectural styles of the homes in the areas differ tremendously and serve as clear examples of the stages of suburban development experienced in the US since the 1950's. Finally, the areas are all within the borders of the New Rochelle city government which defines specifics such as educational resources and fire, municipal and police services. Otherwise, the areas could quite possibly be classified as villages or hamlets within larger towns, or CDP's that fall under the greater authority of a separate, incorporated town or village. These articles are just introductory, basic articles to which alot of information and substance can and will be added. --SHH2009 (talk) 21:18, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

NR articles
FYI - user wknight94 has communicated to Tiptoey the following:

Hi. Per my comment, you may want to delete all the new articles created by. They've already caused some discussion and been tagged for merges. History shows that Jvolkblum will turn each of them into battlegrounds. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:23

This is one of the ways that this user removes information unfairly from the site. He seems to act as if he is above the wiki protocol. His actions are hostile and spiteful and add nothing but negativity to the issue(s) at hand. I would venture to say that he himself is turning non-issues into 'battlegrounds' and not the other way around as he claims. As for his other contributions to the site, well, they are minimal and barely beneficial to the site. --216.244.18.4 (talk) 03:41, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It is not necessary for anyone else to remove the above comment. As you may observe i commented at User talk:Tiptoety.  I do not agree with much of what you say here, but i do think that some other solution to a long-running problem here is called for.  There is a way to do that, but I think it is not furthered by re-starting deleted articles or re-uploading previously discussed material as an IP editor or under an account that is likely to be blocked at any moment.  As you know i have sympathies to your position, but for me to stay interested and to help address this you need to communicate with me, i guess off-line.  I also have some sympathy for W and O and others who have been involved in this long-running issue.  I have an email link enabled at my User page. doncram (talk) 04:19, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Jvolkblum, you're not the only one that knows how to create sockpuppets. Using various accounts, I've contributed the majority of content to at least one FA, three GAs, 10-12 DYKs, dozens of other new articles, and various technical aspects, not to mention over a thousand high-quality photographs, including several that have been used on other web sites, and a few that have been used in published books! Even if you don't count the thousands of administrative actions cleaning up nonsense from troublemakers like you, and attempts to help people victimized by people like you, my contributions are fine. —Wknight94 (talk) 11:24, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Location descriptions
Thanks for the compliment :-) In case you didn't already know this: that's actually what I was doing with Maryland until you asked for the Massachusetts tables; I think I'll go now to Hawaii, however, and add summaries before I return to Maryland.  Nyttend (talk) 01:50, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Carnegie Library (disambiguation)
Hey Doncram, I just wanted to suggest that maybe when you work on cleaning up Carnegie Library (disambiguation), perhaps turn it into a List of Carnegie libraries. There are a lot on that list, but a lot more as well (Carnegie Library of Homestead, Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh) that merit inclusion as well in my opinion. It could be a useful resource to find all such articles.  Grsz 11  01:49, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll be looking forward to seeing it.  Grsz 11  02:14, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Brooklyn - I was there Saturday, not sure when I'll be back
but I have a car on Sunday so ... we'll see. dm (talk) 05:16, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Turns out I'll be in Brooklyn this afternoon. dm (talk) 16:11, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I stopped and looked around, but didnt see the plaque.  Sorry didnt have much time.  dm (talk) 02:13, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll probably be back there at some point and will try again. I did not see your longer description of where it was before I left... dm (talk) 17:46, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Reply to message from Doncram
Hello and thanks for your messages. I am well aware of the strange situation with New Rochelle related articles. I'm originally from New Rochelle and I have always thought of it as a pleasant and interesting community. Wikipedia has been a helpful resource for me to learn more about the community and I find the overall site to be great as well. It has caught my attention on multiple occasions when material was removed from the website, from simple facts to entire articles. Overall I do not believe there is any validity in the "Banned User" argument given each time in of support these actions. My thoughts are that these issues are being created and perpetuated by one individual who is an experienced user working to push his/her personal agenda (I don't know if it is fair or appropriate for me to "name names"). These problems continue with a consistency that makes me wonder if it will ever end ~ SO I thought it might be good to get involved. Im glad to see that my contributions have already had some positive impact. I will definitely contribute more!--Erin cali70 (talk) 05:28, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

National Register of Historic Places listings in Wisconsin
You put in a note about Consolidated Papers in Wisconsin Rapids. I ran across the site and I have a picture of the sign. I notice the sign while driving down the road and I turned around to take a picture. The sign was nearly hidden and in horrible shape. There is a broken down set of concrete structures running across the Wisconsin River at this location, but I was unable to find a public (non-private) location to take a picture. The sign talks about the Centralia Pulp & Paper Mill, and here's the picture: File:CentraliaPulpAndPaperMillRHPSign.jpg. Centralia was the name of one of the cities that became Wisconsin Rapids.  Royal broil  05:38, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

MA & ME NRHP actions 4/25/2008 through 2/13/2009
Hi Don ... as you requested on my talk page, I copied the NRHP actions since 4/25/2008 for MA and ME to their respective NRHP listings talk pages. I basically had to do the same thing you could have done. I clicked through each of the weekly links on the NPS page and cut and pasted the information onto the talk pages. I do have a spreadsheet with new listings posted from 3/28/2008 through 8/8/2008, so I knew roughly which weekly links to click for that time period. But it's still really just a matter of clicking through the weekly lists and searching for the listings I'm interested in. Anyways, I hope you've now got what you need for those two states. --sanfranman59 (talk) 05:53, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks
I had no idea there were such things as infobox generators. Thanks for the tip!--Erin cali70 (talk) 18:46, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Los Angeles Historic Cultural Monuments
Don -- Since you went on your trip and the weather has turned gray, wet and cold, I've temporarily shifted my focus away from the local historic sites. I expect to shift my focus back once the weather improves for Saturday photo trips. By way of inventory on what we have done and still need to do on the HCM project, here's where I think things stand:
 * List of Los Angeles Historic-Cultural Monuments in the San Fernando Valley – shell is created and article in decent shape - still needs some photos and redlinked articles
 * List of Los Angeles Historic-Cultural Monuments in South Los Angeles – shell is created and article in decent shape - still needs some photos and redlinked articles
 * List of Los Angeles Historic-Cultural Monuments in the Harbor area – shell is created and article is in good shape - still needs a few photos and redlinked articles
 * List of Los Angeles Historic-Cultural Monuments on the Westside - shell is created but article needs work and still needs many photos and redlinked articles
 * List of Los Angeles Historic-Cultural Monuments in Downtown Los Angeles - shell is created, but article needs work and still needs many photos and redlinked articles
 * List of Los Angeles Historic-Cultural Monuments in Hollywood – no shell and no article. This article can be started using the Hollywood HCM sublist] from the Planning Dept. web site
 * List of Los Angeles Historic-Cultural Monuments on the East and Northeast Sides – no shell and no article. This article can be started using the Boyle Heights and Northeast Los Angeles sublists from the Planning Department web site]
 * I have now started this one, thought it's only complete through HCM#302.Cbl62 (talk) 22:08, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Best regards, cbl. Cbl62 (talk) 22:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * List of Los Angeles Historic-Cultural Monuments in the Wilshire and Westlake areas – no shell and no article. This article can be started using the "Wilshire" and "Westlake" neighborhoods
 * List of Los Angeles Historic-Cultural Monuments in Silverlake, Echo Park, and Elysian Valley – no shell and no article. This article can be started using the Silver Lake, Echo Park, and Elysian Valley areas. Based on geography, this list could conceivably be folded into either the Hollywood or Wilshire/Westlake lists.

Edwin H. Cheney House-Oak Park, Illinois
Hi! I came across the Edwin H. Cheney House article in Oak Park, Illinois one of Frank Lloyd Wright's designs.You might find this interesting.Thanks-RFD (talk) 16:33, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you-RFD (talk) 18:45, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Historic sites
Yes, I'd gladly de-tag those historic sites which have restricted location information. Please give me a pointer to the list of restricted sites via my talk page, and I'll de-tag them. I've finished tagging archaelogical sites for now, so I'm unlikely to add any more for a bit. -- The Anome (talk) 01:59, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Ohio table
Could you place the number-of-listings-per-county table on the Ohio list? I've finished it in my sandbox, although I'd appreciate it if you checked my addition :-) Nyttend (talk) 15:48, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for placement. In case you wondered about the random numbers in the number-of-listings column: I simply copy/pasted the appropriate bits into the coding for the Pennsylvania table, and hadn't yet gotten around to moving the correct numbers into that column.  Nyttend (talk) 18:25, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem, i figured as much. I sum up 3,704 now, wow, using my side Excel spreadsheet.  Please u do the honors at nation-wide List of RHPs. doncram (talk) 18:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. In case you get this before you see the other, check my comment at the Ohio talk page.  By the way, seeing this edit — I've often wondered why the in-infobox reference is placed where it is.  Do you think we should ask Elkman to move it in the generator?  Nyttend (talk) 00:30, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia Loves Art new date
Based on participants' votes, Wikipedia Loves Art LACMA has been rescheduled to Saturday, February 21, 2009 starting at 1:00 PM. Unfortunately, I have a prior commitment and cannot attend. I will need someone to be coordinator for that day. Let me know if you are willing. Thanks, and have fun!  howcheng  {chat} 17:52, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm back, sorta
Hi, thanks for your messages on various NRHP articles and disambig pages. I've been away for a while and am now in the process of trying to get back up to speed. I just got a new laptop which I'm trying to master and get online with when I get the energy to do so. Mostly, though, I'm just sleeping most of the time. Foothills Baptist Church as you can see is one of those NRHPs that really presents naming problems. None of them seemed to really fit. You're right FUMC in Dallas deserves an article. Feel free. Best wishes. clariosophic (talk) 19:59, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Kentucky
I've finished placing the numbers for the table. Having placed most or all of the county tables, I'm pretty sure that there aren't any duplicates, but I'm not going to say right now that there aren't any. Nyttend (talk) 13:39, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I had created some of the tables, too, i think, back a ways.  Assume no dups.  I ran a spreadsheet count of the tallies and checked/matched same total.  Share honors then? doncram (talk) 17:26, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, didn't remember :-) Do you mean that you want to place the number?  No complaint :-)  Nyttend (talk) 21:30, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, i meant for u & me to share placement there. Not wanting to do a detailed accounting, i propose 50/50 split.  Actually i assumed that is okay by u, and already did my half.  Your turn. :) P.S. Thanks also for finding, noting dups in NV. doncram (talk) 03:20, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Erin cali
I can clearly see this account on the same ISP/location as dozens of previously confirmed Jvolkblum socks. To any other CU who hasn't previously checked Jvolkblum socks, it would appear that this user was unrelated, but for someone who has checked his socks and noted his ISPs/locations/etc., it is quite clear that this is a sockpuppet. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 20:45, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't block this user from using his/her talk page. All blocked users can edit their talk page, provided that an admin didn't disable user talk page editing in his block settings. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 21:00, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Temp page
Hi Doncram,

First, let me say that I have lots of your NRHP list pages around, and they look good. Thank you for doing that. Relatedly, I stumbled across your temp page at National Register of Historic Places listings in Virginia/temp. It looks useful, but the normal convention is to keep those kind of temp pages out of the article space on the off chance that a reader stumbles across it - though I know it's very unlikely given the title. Not a big deal, but it may be better to store this and similar pages in a sandbox or userpage.

Anyway, keep up the good work and feel free to ask if I can ever be of assistance.-- Kubigula (talk) 05:30, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your encouragement. This one was really meant as a temporary Temp page, but i was kind of stopped in place.  Just now, in response to your prompt, i went ahead and moved its useful contents into List of RHPs in VA and requested its deletion.  Thanks for the reminder.  About when to use a Temp page or not, I am not clear.  Sometimes i'd rather not put a Temp page in my own user space, as it appears to dissuade others to be involved in developing it.  In the future, for comparable situations, would it be better to put such a Temp page underneath the Talk page, like at "Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in Virginia/Temp" "National Register of Historic Places listings in Virginia/Temp"? doncram (talk) 06:05, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I see your point as editors do seem reluctant to edit in other people's userspace. I've seen this sort of thing done in talk page temp space or in wikiproject space - say "Wikipedia:WikiProject NRHP/National Registor of Historic Places listings in Virginia/Temp".  Feel free to use WikiProject Virginia space if you like.


 * Heck - I may even be wrong and there could be lots of article/temp pages floating around; I just hadn't seen it used before.-- Kubigula (talk) 06:17, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia Loves Art preparations
Are you read for WLA this Saturday? Here are some last minute preparations you should do before you arrive.
 * 1) Be sure you have a spiral bound memo pad or notebook (and pen) to take notes and to use for writing the accession numbers, which you then have to photograph (see Wikipedia Loves Art/LACMA rules for details).
 * 2) Be sure to print out the scavenger hunt list at Wikipedia Loves Art/LACMA rules/list. You may also wish to visit http://collectionsonline.lacma.org/mwebcgi/mweb.exe?request=onview1 to make a plan of attack.
 * 3) Since tripods and monopods are not allowed in the museum, consider making a string tripod (not as good as the real thing, but better than nothing).

Additionally, we will plan to eat out afterwards at a nearby dining establishment (TBD) -- hope you can join us for that. And finally, I was able to make arrangements for my daughter so I will be able to attend after all. Looking forward to seeing you there!  howcheng  {chat} 19:26, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the note about this on my talk page. This sounds like a really excellent event.  However, I can't make it this Saturday.  I'd be interested in hearing about it afterward and participating in a future event should more events be scheduled. Cbl62 (talk) 00:18, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Palm Court (Alexandria Hotel)
I'm working on an article about the Palm Court. I have a recollection that someone I've spoken to had some good photos of the room and its stained glass. Was that you? If you hae any good photos, the article would certainly benefit from them. Cbl62 (talk) 16:33, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Maine
Do you think you'll be doing more counties soon? I doubt duplication of effort is good :-) If you split out counties, I'll work on the split-out descriptions.  Nyttend (talk) 16:49, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No complaints on my end; I've not had any edit conflicts, so I'd just somewhat been assuming that you would have, simply for the reason of probability: I assumed that because we've been working on the same list at the same time, we would have been conficting some way or another. I'm happy to keep doing what we've been doing, sort of a division of effort as you mention.  Nyttend (talk) 18:09, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Maine is finished. Nyttend (talk) 19:30, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguating
Hi Pubdog. An edit title of yours with "DAB" in it caught my eye, off my watchlist, so I went ahead and created Franklin Square Historic District. You were right in this case that adding (city, state) was needed to distinguish the Baltimore one from others of the same name. In general, it would be more helpful if you'd go ahead and start a disambiguation page if you identify that one is needed. You can generate a cut-and-paste-ready one using Elkman's tool for that at http://www2.elkman.net/nrhp/dablinker.php. And you can tag that for review by me, or tag any other disambiguation page for review by me, by adding NRHP dab needing cleanup at the top. doncram (talk) 20:11, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Troublesome markup inside the preceding signed contrib has been corrected; see this section's subsection. --Jerzy•t 09:54, 23 February 2009 (UTC) 
 * Thanks very much for the sage advice and for pointing me to the Elman tool. Sorry for the naive question, but how would I have started the DAB page without having something to link to? This is the only way I've created new pages. Does that make sense?  For instance ... I have another DAB page to create for North Central Historic District.  Once I get the Elkman code, how do I then create the blank page to paste the code into?Pubdog (talk) 21:39, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Just search, at the left, for "North Central Historic District". It will not find a page exactly matching that, so it offers you, in red, an option to "create this page".  I think that's what you're looking for.  Start that, then paste in from the E-man disambig page generator output for "North Central Historic District" for a start, which gives you two NRHPs of that exact name.  To go a bit further, you can also run a more general search, using E-man's "who has" search (at http://www2.elkman.net/nrhp/whohas.php.  Search on just "North Central" and you'll see that there is one more, nearly the same name, which I would also manually edit into the disambig page, because I think that could be helpful so some readers. doncram (talk) 03:27, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I've never looked at that whohas page before...thanks for helping me unintentionally :-) Nyttend (talk) 04:06, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't know that was there, either. Kinda de-mystifies DAB a little.  :)  Lvklock (talk) 11:04, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much. North Central Historic District created.  I added undefined, but removed it because it just displayed as a text string.  I've created 100s of pages as you instruct ... I guess I thought creating a DAB page required something special!  Best wishes--Pubdog (talk) 11:35, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks great. I had trouble composing that string to display properly, i meant to say you could paste in , as in this diff just to demonstrate.  But your dab is great, properly shows one bluelink per dab entry.  Tagging with "NRHP dab needing cleanup" is more helpful when you come across an existing dab page that seems out of format, and it will work to get me to come by and fix it up.  Thanks! doncram (talk) 18:25, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Got it ... thanks for all the help and for adding the AZ entry--Pubdog (talk) 23:55, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Created a new one, see Mount Airy Historic District--Pubdog (talk) 11:57, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Broken template ref repaired
Presumably bcz the markup undefined didn't do what you expected, you changed it to, which may look better when rendered, but had the side effect of putting your talk page into Category:Disambiguation; i haven't tried to figure out why. But what i am sure you were trying to recall would be NRHP dab needing cleanup, which renders thus:
 * NRHP dab needing cleanup

and should avoid any embarrassing side effects. I took the liberty of correcting (and clearly labeling this markup) inside your signed contrib, feeling sure that it would not cause any misunderstood attribution, but would quickly get you out of being the 16th page in that 15 page-entry Cat. No harm done, i hope; thanks. --Jerzy•t 09:54, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Question re: apostrophe
I am trying to use http://www2.elkman.net/nrhp/dablinker.php to verify NRHP DABS for names containing apostrophes, such as St. John's Church. When I do, I get an error. Do you know how else I can generate that script?--Pubdog (talk) 01:16, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, that's an undocumented feature/bug of the Elkman system. To create a dab for "St. John's Church" you need to insert a backslash before the apostrophe, so search on "St. John\'s Church" instead. doncram (talk) 01:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Scouting
I just ran across Cascade Boy Scout Camp, which I expanded as much as possible; you created the article last month. Do you have any idea how many sites related to the Boy Scouts of America are listed? Nyttend (talk) 14:15, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Who has lists, for "Scout", the following 12:


 * Arkadelphia Boy Scout Hut, Arkadelphia, AR
 * Boy Scout Troop, Franklin, LA
 * Brewer Scout Cabin, Solomon, KS
 * Camp Ouachita Girl Scout Camp Historic District, Paron, AR
 * Camp Paxson Boy Scout Camp (24MO77), Lolo National Forest, MT
 * Cascade Boy Scout Camp, Durango, CO
 * Cloud Rim Girl Scout Lodge, Brighton, UT
 * Fort Wadsworth Agency and Scout Headquarters Building, Browns Valley, MN
 * Johnston Scout Rocks, Kemmerer, WY
 * Scout Lodge, Chehalis, WA
 * Scout's Rest Ranch, North Platte, NE
 * Terrace Park Girl Scout Cabin, Big Stone Gap, VA
 * Those are more than i knew about. doncram (talk) 14:25, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Nyttend (talk) 05:27, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppet claim against Orlady
Hello - I see that someone had filed a claim against Orlady. I am not sure if it held any level of legitimacy, or not, OR if it was unfairly shot down, or not, OR if the individual who filed the claim was justified in their actions, or not, HOWEVER I have other evidence to share which shows Orlady engaging in the type of behavior that she crusades so vigilantly against. I am sharing this with you because a)my attempts to file a new claim on the project page proved unsuccessful due to the fact that the project page itself is protected and can only be edited by administrators (an issue in and of itself), and b)you have recently been involved in Orlady related issues. Hopefully you can raise some level of awareness to the following:


 * adding additional IP address to this case of sockpuppetry against Orlady. Evidence can be viewed here, where a direct link between Orlady and this IP address is shown. That IP has showed up on multiple occasions history] to edit articles that are trademark Orlady interests (Tennessee, Tennessee locales), all of which she has touched on at some point in the past.
 * adding additional IP address to this case of sockpuppetry against Orlady. Evidence can be viewed here, where a direct link between Orlady and this IP address is shown. That IP has showed up on multiple occasions history] to edit articles that are trademark Orlady interests (Tennessee, Tennessee locales), all of which she has touched on at some point in the past.

--EERVR.Jr (talk) 18:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * That claim is nonsense. Read up on what a sockpuppet is, please. doncram (talk) 18:32, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry for bothering you with that request. Obviously I mis-spoke when saying "sockpuppet" claim. I agree that the example is essentially nonsense however I brought it to your attention because of the fact that Orlady continuously makes claims against IP addresses and wikipedia users which, when checked, yield connections such as this Orlady/IP connection, (with all parties involved being reprimanded for violating the rules of wikipedia). Regardless, my apologies for bothering you with this junk. Take care--EERVR.Jr (talk) 18:42, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

DC and LA
Thanks for the note; but I'm working at the moment at filling out Colorado. I'm to be in Colorado over my spring break (no, I don't know how to ski; it's hiking and seeing the sights), so I want to make sure that I could take advantage of anything there if I get a chance. It's just a lot more likely than seeing something in Louisiana on this trip :-) Nyttend (talk) 05:24, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Response to your last message
I generally don't run into too many disambiguation pages myself; the only time that I do is when I'm merging a list into a new table. I'll try to remember to do this, but it's rare enough for me that I might well forget.

You note on Marcbela's talk page that I may be slowing down — correctly, but not because I'm not working with this. What I've been doing gradually is downloading the listings (as I've formatted them) and placing them in Notepad files, so that I have complete lists for every county, along with a photo note so that I can know whether the site has a picture in its list (even bigger reason for doing Colorado now!). So far, I've done 22 states, plus about 2/3 of Colorado; sometimes when I feel like increasing the number of counties that I have, I go for ones that you've already done. I had been planning to go next for Nebraska, although I understand from Marcbela's words that he's already doing it.

As far as the NHLs: when I develop a page, such as the various Wyoming or Iowa pages, I always mark NHLs; it's harder to remember to do it on the statewide page, since I don't have a line of "There are ___ sites listed on the NRHP in the county, including ___ National Historic Landmarks" like I do with my format for a county list. That being said, I do try often :-) Nyttend (talk) 04:23, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way, as I'm filling out Colorado, I was curious: in the list of counties-with-number-of-properties at the top what's the point of the triple asterisks next to Larimer and Weld counties? I can't find anything on the page that explains it.  Nyttend (talk) 13:54, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I've used *** to indicate that more editing work was needed, in some state list-articles, not sure whether the meaning of it was there in the List of RHPs in CO or not. I see that National Register of Historic Places listings in Larimer County, Colorado does still require editing to cross-check the old entries, still showing.  I guess i meant to get back to finish that but failed to do so. doncram (talk) 23:29, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If you fill out more statewide lists, don't worry about doing the ***; I'm going through all counties, even ones that have already had the old entries checked, so asterisks or not they'll soon be clean. Nyttend (talk) 16:33, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for the idea of the PR backlog user box - I left 90 plus messages on the talk pages of people listed at WP:PRV, so hopefully that helps. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 12:12, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You're welcome, and I am glad u were able to implement it nicely. I see that so far about a dozen potential reviewers have so far included it on their Talk or User pages (besides me and you).  It can't hurt, hopefully will help in attracting PR reviewers. :) doncram (talk) 21:01, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Terminology
tl;dr means "too long, didn't read" - see WP:TLDR. I referred there to the unfortunate tendency of people in general to not actually study the subject. They want immediate results and are not prepared to exert effort to achieve them.

I know this from long experience: the more detailed you are in your explanations, the less they are read. Since you can't change people, you have to change the approach - simplify everywhere you can, and provide hints to where more detailed information resides. Keep the essence upfront and realize that the majority just don't care about the rest.

In the case of WP:Plagiarism, if we are ever going to make it a guideline, we have to keep it at a level where people will actually read the whole thing. Franamax (talk) 03:40, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Accounting task force
There is an accounting task force (though it has very few members). See WikiProject_Business_and_Economics/Accountancy_task_force.Smallman12q (talk) 20:43, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Disamb task?
Hi doncram ... I read through your note on Marcbela's talk page, but I'm afraid that I didn't follow what it is you're requesting I do vis-a-vis disambiguating. Is there something in particular that I'm not doing that you're suggesting I do or, vice versa, something I am doing that you're suggesting I stop? --sanfranman59 (talk) 05:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow ... that's an awful lot to digest. As you note, I think I'm already doing at least some of what you're asking. When I come across NRHP listings with the same name as an existing WP article, I dab the name in any county/state NRHP list articles in which that same name appears. I also use Elkman's "Find the cities and states for which a property is listed" to check for names that I think might be ambiguous even if they don't already have a WP article. As for creating new dab pages, I've not done much of that because when I reviewed WP:MOSDAB, (a) I found the details somewhat overwhelming and confusing and (b) it seemed like biting off more than I'm willing to chew given that my primary interest is in developing NRHP list articles and not dab pages. If your interest is in creating dab pages, why not use some of the tools that Elkman has developed to do so? --sanfranman59 (talk) 19:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I created a dab page for Exchange Building last evening and included the template as you've requested. Is this what you have in mind? Also, an edit popped up on my watchlist today that led to the discovery of another ambiguous link situation that I'm not sure if you want to be informed of. There's an NRHP listing named Thunderbird Lodge in Rose Valley, PA. In January, an editor created a new article named Thunderbird Lodge which is apparently the current name of the NRHP listing named Whittell Estate in Incline Village, NV. I dabbed the Thunderbird Lodge link in the Delaware County, PA list and also redirected the Whittell Estate link in the Nevada list. Given that there are only 2 sites, I don't think a dab page is appropriate, but I thought I'd let you know since you seem to be more acquainted than I with WP guidelines on this type of thing. --sanfranman59 (talk) 19:13, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Yes, doing what you did for Exchange Building is great.  I just revisited that dab and edited it further to meet MOSDAB requirements, and removed the NRHP cleanup tag.  That's perfect, i am very happy to get the dab page set up with the tag calling for my attention.  Also, about the Thunderbird Lodge one, i think having a dab page is appropriate by dab guidelines and i just set that up too.  Thanks for calling that to my attention by note here. doncram (talk) 20:08, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If memory serves, one of the guidelines I recall from WP:MOSDAB is that only the name of each article should be linked for each entry and nothing else. Has that changed? --sanfranman59 (talk) 21:42, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually the requirement is that there be exactly one bluelink per entry in a dab. If the main link is to a redlink, then an additional link which is a bluelink to a page that has the same redlink, showing it in a context that pretty much establishes its wikipedia notability, is required.  If an entry is just a redlink with no supporting bluelink, then the entry can be deleted at any time by disambiguation page editors.  A lot of bare redlink NRHP-related entries were deleted in past campaigns by dab editors.  WikiProject Disambiguation editors in general support their right to go on such campaigns.  To protect any given NRHP redlink, it seems to suffice to add a bluelink to the state list-article, like ", listed on the NRHP in Tennessee ", as if the redlink appeared on that page (although in fact the red-link may appear on a county page within that state list).
 * Technically, if the red-link appears on a county page list, that county page should be linked instead, as in ", listed on the NRHP in ____ County, Tennessee ". I have observed no dab page editors going on deletion campaigns to punish us for not complying with the more technically correct usage, however. doncram (talk) 22:14, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

(unindent)Hmmm ... it's exactly this type of nuance that has led me to avoid creating dab pages. I used to occasionally create them only to have them almost immediately deleted for some esoteric reason. Anyways, I'm glad that you have a handle on the rules. Going forward, I'll continue using the "NRHP dab needing cleanup" template. Thanks for your willingness to do the cleanup work. --sanfranman59 (talk) 23:37, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes i do seem to have the rules and practices under control now. Actually in the past there were various types of dab editors who would delete stuff for contradictory reasons, so it was very hard / impossible to put NRHP stuff in that would stay in, but it is better now.  Great, I look forward to coming across your dabs in the cleanup category.  Assuming what you do goes onto your watchlist, over time you'll see what else if anything I think is necessary or helpful to add to what you do.  Thanks! doncram (talk) 03:20, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Don ... thought you might want to be aware of this message posted on my talk page. I had a feeling that I'd begin getting these messages now that I'm creating so many red-link-only dab pages. This is why I've generally avoided the process of creating such pages. They involve a fair amount of work and too much of the time, they just get flagged for deletion. I don't have enough interest in the task to want to fight this battle. --sanfranman59 (talk) 20:45, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I finally finished with the VA NRHP tables yesterday, so there shouldn't be any more dab pages from me involving VA sites. I just checked and I started working on VA all the way back at the end of November. About darned time I finished it! I don't even want to think of how many hours I spent on this project. I've started work on consolidating onto the main "NRHP listings in VA" as many of the counties and cities with the fewest sites as will fit and keep the size of the page at around 80k or so (allowing some room for growth under to 100k cap). I'm also going to get rid of the alphabetic groupings of the county and city lists and link to each of the longer lists from the main VA page. Pretty much the same thing that's been done for Ohio, California, Michigan and Alabama. --sanfranman59 (talk) 05:51, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Plumb House (Waynesboro, Virginia) and other NRHP articles
Thanks for the note & the head's up on the infobox tool. That's way cool! I'll definitely use it in the future. FieldMarine (talk) 17:57, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the barnstar
Thanks very much for the teamwork barnstar - it is appreciated as is all you do for Wikipedia and the NRHP project, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 02:49, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Diffusion damping peer review
There's been a misunderstanding due to an edit conflict in peer reviewing Diffusion damping. I was saving my edit responding to your review when I realised you had just posted a "followup" commenting on my lack of a response. I was indeed slow to respond, but I want you to know that I really do appreciate your review! -- Rmrfstar (talk) 09:12, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Site in two states
I just discovered that Site No. JF00-062 is split by the Kansas-Nebraska line. You may remember this site as being one of our NRIS problems (related to the "Sioux Falls, Iowa" issue), as it's listed for "Rulo, Kansas" because its Kansas part is so close to Rulo, Nebraska. I've placed a note on the relevant Kansas list and am about to do likewise with Nebraska. Is there anywhere that we track sites that are split between states? Nyttend (talk) 22:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If it crosses state lines it should be included in both of the relevant state/county list-articles, and its overlap should be added to the growing footnote about such duplications at the nation-wide List of RHPs. I think that's it for now.  Perhaps there should be a separate supporting list-article on this topic, but for now it is just a growing footnote within the nation-wide list-article that covers them. doncram (talk) 22:09, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Plantation naming
Don, thank you for sending me a message regarding my renaming of several plantations in Virginia. In most cases, editors have been erroneously including "plantation" as part of the formal names of estates when that is merely their function. I neglected to consult our NRHP naming guides so I apologize for the cases when their official NRHP listing names do in fact have plantation as part of their formal names. --Caponer (talk) 04:34, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Don, I concur that an open discussion would be best. I apologize for not initiating a discussion before my multiple article moves. In some cases, I can still "undo" my edits. Also, I agree with you that a List of plantations would be an ideal way of creating a list for us to work from when referencing various plantations. That would also allow editors to take notice of plantations that do not yet have an article. --Caponer (talk) 04:41, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

A thank you
Thank you for creating articles for redlinks that were listed on the wikiproject Capital District talk page. Perhaps it was a coincidence and you didnt see the list, if the list didnt motivate you you may want to check it out or if it did I added a couple others that you may be interested in. History of Albany, New York has been created and I've been adding as much as possible to it but am bad at making a flowing narrative, since you are knowledgable (I'm bad at spelling as well) about historic sites you may be interested in contributing as well. I hope to help and contribute to those new articles with information on their history as soon as the History page is at a B level (could be quite a while, no info 1906-1960's and nothing past the Empire State Plaza finishing in the 1970's).
 * I have also changed your renaming of Pine Bush to Pine Bush (New York State) by moving it again to Pine Bush Barrens. This new name conforms better to the current naming conventions. Please read the talk page on this new page to see why and why I disagree on the creation of a disamb page in the first place. I also placed there the wikilink for the guidelines on naming pages and on when the creation of a disamb page is needed and when it is not necessary, like in this case. Also, New York State is not the accepted way for clarifying locations in the state of New York as this is not the name of the state, the name of the state is New York (see how the term New York directs directly to the state and NOT to a disamb page even though there are MANY other articles with that name? Alot more than the measly two unimportant ones that mention Pine Bush in there names, and are already distinguished from the original Pine Bush article anyways, but this is covered in the wikilink I put). The accepted way to distinguish is to put New York for example- Castle Island (New York), Castle Island (Massachusetts), state is implied. NOT MY OPINION!Camelbinky (talk) 06:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Market Square disamb
So, what would you do with an item that is a bluelink on the existing disamb page, like Market Square, Houston, but the NRHP is actually named a little differently, like Main Street/Market Square Historic District? Lvklock (talk) 17:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You're speaking in regards to Market Square, a disambiguation page. The guidelines for disambiguation pages are very clear that the exact wikipedia article name is what is supposed to appear on the disambig page, with no pipelinking.  We need to keep separate the idea that in NRHP list-articles we usually want to display the official NRHP name for a site, using pipelinks as necessary to link to articles that are actually named differently.  In disambig pages, which have a different purpose and where wp:NRHP proprietary notions should not be forced, the actual article name should be displayed.  If you believe that the article should be renamed, which well may be the case, you should do that in the article.  But the disambig page should just state the article name (and perhaps mention that the place is NRHP-listed, even if the exact NRHP name is not displayed in the disambig page). doncram (talk) 18:03, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've done what I think it needs, but would you take a look and tell me what I could have done better?  Lvklock (talk) 18:20, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure. Okay, have revised it somewhat further, and then removed the NRHP dab needing cleanup tag.  I reordered the U.S. entries by state then city.  I saw fit to edit that difficult Houston article to link to a separate article that i also created about the NRHP historic district.  Then I link to both of those by their new article names from the dab page.  I note you had already added all other NRHPs having "Market Square" in their name, good.  I did some reorganizing in the non-U.S. entries as well, but mostly leave them the same, am not choosing to venture into giving better names for the Malta, other country ones. doncram (talk) 19:30, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You know, I had them ordered by state, but then realized that in the list I started with, they were ordered alphabetically by title, so I reordered them all. Oh well, live and learn.  Thanks! Lvklock (talk) 21:56, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Your message
No surprises here. I'd be shocked if you were to do otherwise. --Orlady (talk) 19:11, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Nebraska
After Marcbela did the majority of the work, I came in and put in a little effort to finish off the placement of tables and upgrading of descriptions for Nebraska. All that remains is completing the list-of-sites-by-county chart at the top and adding more pictures on each side of the chart. By the way, could you check the Hawaii list? Although the list-by-island chart is good, the list-by-county chart is left-aligned rather than centered. Nyttend (talk) 02:40, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXXVI (February 2009)
The February 2009 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 22:02, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Walnut Park Historic District
Well, there is no big white space in my browser......you Firefox user you! Lvklock (talk) 03:02, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I did have a big white space, but made the table narrower to fit. Would it help to make it a little narrower>  Try 72 or 73% maybe? Lvklock (talk) 03:03, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Any better? Lvklock (talk) 03:10, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Daniel Case expressed preference for having the picture in the infobox in this article. I like it there, too.  I'm working on expanding the text to get rid of the big white space, instead of making the infobox smaller. Lvklock (talk) 14:35, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I added some to this article. Take a look when you can and let me know if it now looks okay in Firefox. Lvklock (talk) 21:37, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you had a chance to look at this? I'm really interested to make sure it looks OK in Firefox. Lvklock (talk) 05:33, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Re: pd welcomeness
I'll take a look over the weekend, time permitting. TomStar81 (Talk) 07:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Next state done
I've just finished overhauling Utah, cutting out each county into its own page and turning the state list into a directory. I'm pressed for time; could you add the pictures to the statewide list? Nyttend (talk) 03:25, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Will be happy too, am trying to finish out List of RHPs in LA first, almost done there. doncram (talk) 18:41, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Nyttend (talk) 12:41, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Nominations for the Military history WikiProject coordinator election
The Military history WikiProject coordinator selection process has started; to elect the coordinators to serve for the next six months. If you are interested in running, please sign up here by 23:59 (UTC) on 13 March! This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 18:37, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Historic-Cultural Monument Lists
Just thought I'd let you know that I've now set up the framework for all the LA HCM lists. There are 9 lists broken down by geographic area, as noted below. Still a lot of work left to fill them in, but it's a start. If you know of any users who might want to help with the HCMs, we can definitely use it. he Cbl62 (talk) 06:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Historic-Cultural Monuments in Downtown Los Angeles
 * Historic-Cultural Monuments in Hollywood
 * Historic-Cultural Monuments in the Wilshire and Westlake areas
 * Historic-Cultural Monuments in South Los Angeles
 * Historic-Cultural Monuments on the East and Northeast Sides
 * Historic-Cultural Monuments in the San Fernando Valley
 * Historic-Cultural Monuments on the Westside
 * Historic-Cultural Monuments in Silver Lake, Angelino Heights, and Echo Park
 * Historic-Cultural Monuments in the Harbor area
 * I have also now started a List of City of Long Beach Historic Landmarks. If you have any thoughts re formatting or setup, feel free to make any changes you think are appropriate.  I used the LAHCM format as a base. Cbl62 (talk) 07:12, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * the same applies for List of San Francisco Designated Landmarks.

List of National Monuments of the United States
You commented on my peer review for this article, but didn't come back to it, so I hope I responded to you well enough. I have gone ahead and listed it back on FLC here, and I would appreciate any further comments. Thanks, Reywas92 Talk  21:52, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Template update
I see that you are active at WikiProject Protected areas. I've created an updated version of Infobox Protected area that will be much easier to maintain and customize. It can be easily if there is a consensus. I have already posted a request for comment at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Protected_areas but have received no response. The only difference between the old and new is that the new version will be much easier to maintain and modify because it is based on a meta-template. The change would be transparent to editors and fully backward compatible. I am hoping you can start the discussion or give me the name of the coordinator if one exists or some other member who takes responsibility for this kind of modification. There is no urgency or need to rush to a decision but I would like to know how members of the project feel. If the updated template is accepted there is a possibility of eliminating the need to calculate location coordinates for location map display. -- droll  &#91;chat&#93;  02:29, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Philadelphia NRHP Photos
Your list of 10 photos which should be deleted from the Philadelphia NRHP table is well taken. If I contribute photos of at least some of these locations in Wikimedia Commons, can you assist me in getting them into the table? The table is complex, and my attempt to add a street address to one location was thwarted by an error message in the preview. Dthomsen8 (talk) 09:43, 11 March 2009 (UTC)Dthomsen8
 * I have uploaded three photos of the New Century Guild in Wikimedia Commons, Category: Buildings in Philadelphia. The Guild is a National Historic Landmark.
 * Curiously, the List of RHPs in Philly has street addresses for buildings on the List of National Historic Landmarks in Philadelphia when sometimes the NHL list does not have the street address.  Can you get the facade photo into the List of National Historic Landmarks in Philadelphia for me? Also, can you check out the categories for these photos? Any other advice on the photos and how they are labeled would be welcomed. DThomsen (talk) 00:37, 14 March 2009 (UTC)Dthomsen8

Sunken Village Archaeological Site
Please check the edit history, I didn't add the coords, EncMstr did. You should check with him. Katr67 (talk) 19:55, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I did check the edit history! This diff seems to show Katr67 added it], but previous edit shows EncMstr adding it, elsewhere.  But, thanks, will do. doncram (talk) 20:11, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Spanish wiki NRHP articles
Hey Doncram. A recent edit to Infobox nrhp enlightened me to something I hadn't thought about before. Not only are there articles about the NRHP in English, but in a variety of different languages. Many of these languages are under-represented (I also didn't know that), and could use some work. I know we still haven't finished even adding all the English NRHP articles, but I think we should also focus on other languages. I had a conversation (he replied here) with User:Aibdescalzo, the main contributor to the Spanish version of the nrhp infobox, and he's brought it to my attention that there are less than 50 NRHP articles in the Spanish Wikipedia. I know a little Spanish (not fluent by any means), but I don't really want to tackle the entirety of the NRHP on my own, if you know what I mean haha.. Do you think we could round up a few people from the project to help out with translating articles into Spanish (and other languages as well)? We could start out with the Featured/Good English articles, I guess, since they're more than likely most important. Think this is of enough importance to raise over at WT:NRHP? --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 00:51, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think time is really ripe to open WikiProject Historic Sites, to cover officially designated historic sites world-wide, which i've been mulling for too long. That would be the center of lots of interesting stuff, us trying to translate from Espanol to U.S. to cover Spain, and to write in Espanol about U.S. sites, and vice versa.  If only someone with infobox programming expertise, and portal/project front page design skills, would agree to be a co-founding member.... :) doncram (talk) 04:10, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Haha count me in. I'm better at translating from Spanish to English, but I can do my share of English to Spanish too.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 04:23, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Elbridge Hydraulic History Archeological District
Hey, shot you an e-mail about this district. Could you read it, and get back to me? I'm at a library waiting to see if you have the info I need. Thanks. Lvklock (talk) 17:28, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I gotta run. No rush, just check on this when you can.  Thanks. Lvklock (talk) 17:38, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry i was in the middle of something else. Replying by email. doncram (talk) 18:39, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * NP. Thanks. :)  Lvklock (talk) 04:01, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Invitation
Sold! I'm in. TomStar81 (Talk) 06:49, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Re: Invitation
Hi Doncram - you wrote: ''You're invited to sign up as a founding member, at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#WikiProject Historic Sites ! :)''

Thanks for the offer, but because of my recent health worries I've scaled back my Wiki work. I still write articles and edit, but I've been avoiding anything that's involved in the more bureaucratic side of Wikipedia (e.g., process pages, Wikiprojects and the like), so sadly I'll have to decline, for now at least. Good luck with the WikiProject, though! Grutness...wha?  08:08, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Might as well reuse the heading that Grutness started. I also appreciate the invitation, and I think the project is a fabulous idea, but I'm not going to sign up because at the present time I don't expect to contribute very much to non-US historic sites efforts. I'll probably watchlist the project page though, so I can see if it starts to look enticing. --Orlady (talk) 02:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

New WikiProject
I'm really excited (to the extent one can be healthily excited for Wikipedia stuff) for the new Historic Sites WikiProject. This might be too early to ask, but when do you think it'll get going? There sure are a lot of people that support it! :-) Killiondude (talk) 22:50, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know, do u think we have a quorum? doncram (talk) 02:42, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * With 41 people's support (as of right now) in under two days of posting your proposal, I think it's safe to say this has passed the proposal stage. According to WP:COUNCIL/P (where the proposal is), if more than 5-10 active Wikipedians support a project, its safe to remove the proposal and start organizing a proper WikiProject page (WP:PROJGUIDE helps with that part). If you want help constructing the WikiProject's main page I can help. Killiondude (talk) 03:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Message to wrong person
Thanks for trying to help, but you sent this: to the wrong user. is the one that I think you meant to leave that message for. -MBK004 22:49, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! doncram (talk) 23:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Hello:

I was checking my talk page for the last time when I saw your message.

As to sending my digital BB35 documents, I agree with the privacy reasons but in Oct 2008, I was brand new to Wiki and I did not know what was what. To learn I ask questions and made offers. Yet my offer to send a cd with everything did get a reply from either of them. I told MTB that I probably lived only 10 miles from him-her. Other promises were made to me by MBK that were not kept. They also copied data from my BB35 website into their article without my permission. I do not mind such use for that is why I created the website but the courtesy of asking should have been made. Then to top it off, when I opened the "Sandbox", the first thing that caught my eye was the msg I thought one of the two editors posted of "I've just banned your ass". I was livid. It was not until March 2009 that I found the msg ban on Sandbox is part of the screen.

My BB35 site had the best detailed BB35 information anywhere on the internet and it was based on original source data. I did not use any secondary sources for the quantity of errors was huge, as shown in the 42 error posting that I found on the Wiki article, on 16 March 2009. In July 2007, I no longer wanted to pay for the website so I discontinued.

I have the best BB35 documentation aside from the National Archives and the ship's present administrators (Texas Parks and Wildlife Department). I do have documents that TPWD does not have and better computer systems for information retrieval (photos, drawings, paper documents etc). I did provide them copies of the documentation I purchased from the National Archives. The only exception was the complete deck log of 1918 (1,100 pages), because it was only available to me on 35mm reel microfilm.

I am an expert on BB35 (though no one person knows everything). Yet I am treated like a country bumpkin. In 2005, I even corrected the Navy's DANFS BB35 section giving them a long list of errors, corrections and the sources. Yet their late 2006 version, excluded most of my corrections. They still list the 1944 invasion of Southern France as July instead of August yet TomStar81 is unwilling to even verify this error with another secondary source.

On 16 March 2009, I posted 42 errors from secondary sources in their article. I cited the errors using my BB35 original documents. I also passed on that "BB35 Restorer" (a TPWD employee) could obtain the documents from the ship for I gave digital copies to the ship's Texas Parks and Wildlife Staff. Call it sour grapes but after all of the grief in Oct 2008 I was not up making a second offer. I have also removed all of the data (10s of megs worth) from my hard drives and I do not want to reload.

TomStar81 replied to the above that there are no reliable sources and that is that, even after I told him the documents-dates and where BB35 Restorer can get them.

To accept 42 long-standing errors when a solution was given to them is troubling to me.

I will not be back – IronShip (talk) 09:49, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I replied in general support of IronShip's concerns at USS Texas article, responding to same/similar comments by IronShip stated here. doncram (talk) 21:05, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Oconee County, South Carolina
In looking at Oconee County, I found that it included Pendleton Historic District (Pendleton, South Carolina), which is mostly in Anderson County, South Carolina and a little in Pickens County, South Carolina. Pendleton District, South Carolina once include the land of Anderson, Pickens, and Oconee Counties.

Prior to the establishment of the Pendleton Historic District, parts were in Oconee County. I think that it was voted itself into Pickens County.

It is #15 in Anderson County's listing. This is fine with me. I guess that it could be listed in Pickens County, but I do not know the established WP traditions for multi-county districts.

I can take it out of Oconee if you wish.

Good work on South Carolina! KudzuVine (talk) 20:55, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * In general if a place appears in more than one county, it should be listed in the table of each one of those counties, and the duplication noted in the tally table at the top of the List of RHPs in SC, in the duplications subtraction just before the total across all counties.
 * It appears from the 3 records in Elkman's NRHP infobox generator that the NRIS system must list this one in 3 counties. That it shows up in NRIS in Oconee, Anderson, and Pickens counties specifically could be established by looking at www.nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com, or by observing it came into Elkman county-list-tables for these 3 counties.  I gather from what you are saying is that there is just one Pendleton Historic District, so then IMO there is no need for additional (City, State) disambiguation in the name.  Versions with (City, State) can be set up but just as redirects to the one main article, IMO. Oops, there is also a Pendleton Historic District in Indiana (perhaps a former NRHP).  Okay, let it be named as you say, with (Pendleton, South Carolina) included in the name.
 * Further you are saying that the district is currently in just Anderson and Pickens counties, and no longer is in Oconee, so there is an error/update correction needed in NRIS. Yes, you should drop it from the Oconee county list-article.  I would also put that into the wp:NRIS info issues list, for reporting to the National Register.  Could you add it there (add to or create a "South Carolina counties" subsection there)? doncram (talk) 21:40, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to do some research. The nomination lists the geographic boundaries as well as the verbal description. The verbal description is strictly Pickens and Anderson. But the problem is that there is a thin strip of land by the present Lake Hartwell that was not voted into Pickens County. Thus the description could include Oconee County (even though no one considers this Oconee but map makers) and it once was (prior to late 1960s) in Oconee County and not Pickens. Such is the joy of the ballot box. The nomination form only lists Anderson and Pickens Counties. In any case, there are duplicates and I can get that started. I need to write an article about it in any case. Once spring gets fully in bloom, some good pictures can be taken. www.nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com indicates that it is in Oconee. I had just changed the picture in the Pickens County listing to something in Pickens County - Hopewell Treaty Oak - when I looked at your answer! KudzuVine (talk) 23:25, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Dab?
What is a "dab" in Wikipedia? Is there a list of terms or glossary somewhere? DThomsen8 (talk) 12:25, 19 March 2009 (UTC)Dthomsen8
 * Glossary answers my question. DThomsen8 (talk) 12:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)Dthomsen8

Arles
Hi Doncram. Returning to the Arles issue, as a way to judge how to proceed on non-English speaking countries, wouldn't it be wiser to attempt to avoid use of foreign languages whenever possible? Especially since, as I noted on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Historic_Sites, there actually has been some use of the English wording, only as Obelisk of Arles and not Arles Obelisk. But I was only interested in the measure we can create a general standard.

Passing to something different, couldn't we subsume WP:NRHP under WP:HS, and run a bot to mark as WP:HS all the articles whose talkpages are already marked on the talk pages as WP:NRHP? This is what we did with WP:Africa, making a single hierarchical template; just for a single example see Chad, where the previous WP:Chad template was subsumed in the larger one.--Aldux (talk) 15:44, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Your attention would help
Hi. Im writing to your talk page because I have been blocked from editing on the site, reason being that I am a sockpuppet of another account. I have not been involved in this problem for a quite a while yet I still am being brought up in connection to this alleged sockpuppettmaster. I just recieved a google alert that my acct name was brought up again so I opened it up to figure out why. Unfortunately I cannot figure that out but I am annoyed to see that the most recent claim has been sitting unattended for weeks, with additional IPs and accounts being added on only by one user, Orlady. This is the same user who opened the claim, and is the same user who is seeking adminship on the site. I also see (according to a note on her user page) that due to a family emergency she had less time to attend to wikipedia. Despite this "emergency" she clearly has had time to go after the same poor individuals and the same topic area as she gone after before. The results of the most recent, and "stale", check user investigation have been provided by Nishkid84 who has been involved in prior check user requests for jvolkblum claims. Nishkid has remained occupied for the past two weeks that this request has been sitting unanswered yet he has been active both on the site making edits and on addressing check user requests. His most recent results of "confirmed" seem suspect and unfair. Since my former account is one of the names mentioned as confirmed I feel the need to point out that I was unfairly linked to this issue, that I have no connection to these other people or accounts, and that I am not connected to the user jvolkblum. That said, I find it extremely frustrating to see that administrators are yielding such false results. Equally frustrating is the continued insistance of Orlady on attacking these articles. Her recent request for speedy deletion of "Neptune Island", "Beechwoods Cemetery", "Holy Sepulchre Cemetery", "Huckleberry Island" highlights this unnecessary and questionable targeting of New Rochelle. She has also removed valuable content from "Wildcliff" which was sourced and which detailed architectural accomplishments of A.J.Davis as well as styles/features of his work, all of which are easily verified despite Orladys claim otherwise.

I know from the past that you have provided some helpful contributions to this issue. If you would be able to help out once again that would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.191.221.165 (talk) 13:47, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I sympathize with your position, largely. I don't agree with all that you say, and I think you misinterpret some of what is going on in wikipedia due to your lack of experience as a continuing user, which would be quickly remedied if you were a regular user.  My analysis of what is needed is for you to get formally separated from the Jvolklum-associates mess and for you to edit under only one wikipedia account.  I would write an unban proposal to allow you to do so.  I think you would need to be willing to agree to use just one account, and to identify which accounts you have used in the past, so that those can be split from the rest of the Jvolkblum set.  If you continue to edit in wikipedia I presume you will continue to have your contributions deleted and your articles deleted.  I have been willing in the past to fight somewhat on your and/or others behalf, but no one of the Jvolblum linked parties has been willing to lift a finger for me, so to speak, to agree to make any promises and go through an unban.  Like other wikipedia editors, I am a volunteer, and I cannot continue and/or am not very interested in continuing to intervene on behalf of a confusing mix of persons who have not agreed to behave nicely (mostly to operate from just one account that I could watch).  I am getting frustrated too, perhaps in part by the activity of linked others who are not you, but I cannot easily tell who is who and separate you from them.  This time, with no conditions I am willing to fight just somewhat about Huckleberry Island and Beechwoods Cemetery.  I don't choose to get into analysing Wildcliff right now although I assume you are correct about the A. J. Davis information accuracy, relevance, importance.  Also, by the way, I don't find articles right now for "Neptune Island" and "Holy Sepulchre Cemetery" (perhaps they were already deleted). doncram (talk) 17:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I understand your position and agree with your thoughts on contributing from a registered account. Unfortunately my registered account has been unfairly blocked and I strongly feel that the integrity of this site and its guidelines & policies have therefore been comprimised by those in charge. My goal is to add information about the community in which I reside because I believe it to be both relevant and beneficial overall. I am a grade school teacher in New Ro and feel that Wikipedia is a valuable resource for my students to learn more about the City and its history. It is hard to see my many positive contributions, and those of other users, constantly challenged and negated due to the overblown claims of vandalism from one user.
 * Also, here are the links to the other pages I mentioned earlier: Holy Sepulchre Cemetery (New Rochelle, NY) and Neptune Island (Long Island Sound) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.191.222.18 (talk) 17:55, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I do presume in general that you have been unfairly treated. What is your registered account?  Please let me know and I can try to get that unblocked.  Also if you don't mind, could you identify some or all other accounts you have used in the past that have been linked into Jvolkblum associates, if any, so they could be split out of future Jvolkblum-associates investigations.  I personally don't care one whit if you have used multiple accounts in the past, as I presume you have been forced to do so by repeated unfair blockings.  However, I want for you to help me reduce the size of the overall problem and to forestall checkuser investigations that likely will show your account to be linked to others.  I have in the past argued that the checkuser investigations have been inadequate as they lump together multiple persons into the Jvolkblum group.  If future checkuser investigations establish links of your account to others you identify up front and that are no longer active, that will be no problem and would tend to support your credibility going forward.  If your account is truly proven to link to other accounts with future editing once you have an unblocked account, that would tend to show that you are then lying and evading wikipedia site policies.  Although I presume you were unfairly treated in the past and I wish to apologize on behalf of most of wikipedia's editors for that, I think you have to separate yourself from others caught up in the Jvolkblum associates mess and you have to accept the key requirements for editing in wikipedia (including working from one account, with certain allowed exceptions).  Other Jvolkbum-linked persons, including the original person, can do the same, once one person has been brave enough to do it. doncram (talk) 18:35, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I forgot to mention that I have personally worked on creating a clickable image showing the location of areas and communites within New Rochelle. I uploaded the image to commons as well as the mapping coordinates for creating a clickable image, which can be seen here. I am not clear on how to insert the clickable form of the image into the list of new rochelle neighborhoods article, or the main New Rochelle, New York article. Possibly might you know what the next steps would be? Also, the lower righthand of the image has an information symbol which hampers others from seeing "Execution Rocks Light". Would you know how to correct this? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.191.221.159 (talk) 18:22, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow that map is kinda neat, and i like it although its colors are rather bright! The map has possibilities.  But honestly, I don't know which person you are.  I have corresponded with, perhaps several different persons associated (unfairly or whatever) with Jvolkblum.  Are you MagdaOakwoman?  Are you the one who posted to wt:nrhp and with whom I corresponded about the New Rochelle-area dissertation?  I can't keep dealing with multiple personalities.  If this goes on with no one of you willing to take a hint, I might feel tempted to turn into a monster myself and actively seek deletion of the map image and every f***ing New Rochelle neighborhoods article or list-article, etc.!  Probably not, but i am just a volunteer and you are not allowing me to help you properly. doncram (talk) 18:45, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * (Thanks for the compliments re: my NR map. I can definitely tone down the color scheme!)


 * returning to the main topic of discussion - - I am willing to be "brave" and share the information you requested. To be completely honest, I cannot remember my original user account. I believe that after that account was blocked I created one or two additional accounts which were also blocked (the blocking of the second account is what prompted me to create a third). I honestly do not remember the names of those accounts either. I believe one is 12thandUniversity. (This multiple-personality existance is not one which I desire, nor is it one that I can keep track.)


 * I am sure that my edits centered specific on New Rochelle subjects but do recall making a few productive edits to some of Orladys other interest areas in Westchester. After some time I came back to the site to add a number of articles on NR neighborhoods. This was influenced by both a personal interest in the subject and also by the presence of neighborhood articles in other cities such as Syracure, Stamford, Dallas and also the boroughs of NYC. I believe that the account I created when adding these articles was SHH2009. That account was blocked quickly which prompted my creation of several additional accounts including EATON.TEE and QUADCIN (I am not 100% sure about this one but I believe I created it). I am also fairly confident that my IP address is 68.173.87.68. I am not using any of those now and have been writing to you using a random IP address from a French network. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.191.221.159 (talk) 20:23, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I can use my 68.173.... home IP address if and when I am home, however I am inclined to use a public IP address if I am on someone else's network (work, peers etc.). I would be happy to use one account and not have to "break" the rules. I have not created any additional accounts aside from those I mentioned to you above AND I will not make any more. Thanks --68.173.85.60 (talk) 10:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It appears to be impossible for me to move forward from this situation - see most recent work from Orlady here--68.173.85.60 (talk) 16:54, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your cooperation. Haven't checked that link but will.  I will post an Unban proposal, but I'd like to ask you some questions to support my proposal at a Talk page of yours, and others may need to address you too.  Q1: Is there one account you do have access to, where you can post to its Talk page?  Apparently in some but not all Blocks, the user affected is left with ability to edit their own Talk page.  Q2: Can you please clarify specifically, are you the person behind blocked account User:Erin_cali70 whose contributions history, all relatively recent, is here.  I think you must be able to tell whether you are that person or not.  Q3: Of the account(s) to which you do have access, if any, is there one which you would like to have unblocked for you to edit within, alone (leaving you linked to its edit history)?  Or perhaps it would be best for me to propose that you get to create a new single account under a new name.  Replies would help me prepare my proposal. doncram (talk) 20:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi. To quickly answer your questions, 1) I do not know if there is an account in which I can successfully access the talk page. Please advise 2)I am not responsible for the creation or operation of the account User:Erin_cali70. I did however come across "NR Neighborhoods" related content within that users 'sandbox', and brought it over to the main article to help with its overall development. 3) Getting permission to create a new single account seems like the best option at all possible. Or perhaps I can use the commons account that I created when uploading the NR areas map? --88.191.221.194 (talk) 20:04, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Doncram: For what it's worth, this new IP-user friend of yours is experiencing some chronological confusion in his/her sockpuppetry confession. EATON.TEE was created some time before SHH2009 was created (and blocked). Furthermore, if this person is actually assigned 68.173.87.68, I think they should be able to use that IP to edit (instead of using French proxies), as that IP does not appear to be blocked. --Orlady (talk) 01:08, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Orlady. I support my new (or old?) friend using just one account, or fewer accounts.  If u can use that 68.173 one, or better if there is one wikipedia named account for u that is currently not blocked, please use that.  I spoke up at checkuser request asking for checkuser not to block you.  You cause more work for everyone if you open more accounts or use more IP addresses.  I see I really have to get an unban proposal forward soon. doncram (talk) 01:22, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Sent you an e-mail about this stuff. Lvklock (talk) 15:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Category:NA-importance Historic sites articles
For every category you create, you should specify parent categories to which it belongs. In the case of a category like this one, parent categories are provided automatically when you include a Cat importance template.

I am a human being, not a bot, so you can contact me if you have questions about this. Best regards, --Stepheng3 (talk) 18:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Military history WikiProject coordinator election
The Military history WikiProject coordinator election has started. We will be selecting coordinators from a pool of eighteen to serve for the next six months. Please vote here by 23:59 (UTC) on Saturday, 28 March! Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 00:40, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Holy Sepulchre Cemetery (New Rochelle, New York)
An article that you have been involved in editing, Holy Sepulchre Cemetery (New Rochelle, New York), has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/Holy Sepulchre Cemetery (New Rochelle, New York). Thank you.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Orlady (talk) 04:19, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Stop undoing the town lists
I hate to be a nag, Doncram, but the reason I've added (town) to those NRHP lists was to distinguish the locations from the villages and hamlets. You really shouldn't have renamed them. Now I have to struggle to change them back. DanTD (talk) 20:26, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, well, i did them all. I think the moves make sense.  Will discuss at the Suffolk list article Talk page. doncram (talk) 20:29, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

FLC
Hello, I read your comments and I was wondering if you could give me any examples of what lists are not being nominated because the process is flawed? The only FLC I've seen from the project (List of National Historic Landmarks in Alabama) was promoted so how come no more have been nominated? -- Scorpion <sup style="color:black;">0422  23:04, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You mentioned that the Alabama FLC "set big obstacles that effectively rule out bringing more NHL and NRHP lists to FL." Such as? I think you've got a great list there and you shouldn't give up. FLC is about ironing out the kinks and forcing discussion and the process can be frustrating, but you need to keep trying. I think you should ask Orlady on her talk page and see if you can work something out with her input, then try a FLC for the New York list again. -- Scorpion <sup style="color:black;">0422  00:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, you invoke my personal nemesis. :)  I presume that Orlady has already read, or will soon read, this discussion here and at your talk page.  It was no coincidence that she commented immediately after me at Talk:FLC, with a remark that tended to undermine what I had just said.  I and others have had plenty of exchanges with Orlady over the nature of her involvement with wikipedia.  She has declined to participate in mediation or other processes.  I invited her to peer review of the NY article, so that some objections she had could be worked out.  That failed, in my view as she chose not to participate fully, and then she opposed within the FLC.  If she would, out of kindness or otherwise agree to back down on some stuff (in particular would you now agree that the List of NHLs in NY is FL-ready?), that would save a lot of work.  Or perhaps she could give input, here would be fine.  However, given other experience I've had asking her not to cause unnecessary-in-my-view work, I am not optimistic that she would.  And, I resent the choices she makes and the empowerment of her given by the FLC process, in which one person's forcefully-put objections often seem to be given undue credence, and/or fully poison an otherwise great nomination. doncram (talk) 01:30, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * To quote Carly Simon, "You probably think this song is about you," but it isn't. --Orlady (talk) 16:55, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, was it about you or not? Funny, in the same edit Orlady signals that she will launch three AfDs that will waste more of my and others' time, if her threat does not bully me into slavish action on the part of New Rochelle articles that she herself derides, yet is strangely devoted to.  I have learned not to try to predict what she will do next. doncram (talk) 19:04, 22 March 2009 (UTC)