User talk:DoubleGrazing/Archive 6

Request to create a article
Hello, I created an article on wikipedia one month before. First time the article got approved. But some days later it deleted from Wikipedia. Please help me to create this article. The article is for an Indian local language newspaper which got registered through RNI and UDYAM. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kalita bani (talk • contribs)


 * Please sign your comments, and it would also be great if you could link to the article you're referring to. --DoubleGrazing (talk) 14:25, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming you mean Draft:Asom Barta? All I did was restore the review templates, which you had deleted. I've not approved, declined, rejected or otherwise had any substantive involvement with it. --DoubleGrazing (talk) 14:27, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

August Editathons at Women in Red
--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 22:24, 23 July 2021 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Phil Edmund Article
There are three references from newspapers. He was a major influence to Chick Correa who is a major Jazz musician in the US and he played in all the big Jazz bands in the 40s, 50s. This is a relevant and important individual to the Cape Verdean community in the United States. See the page for Paul Goncalves; they are same level musicians, one has a wikipedia page the other doesn't. Let's remedy this. Please reconsider your objection to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ismenelik (talk • contribs)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Phil_Edmund


 * Hi


 * Firstly, I can only see two newspaper sources, the Boston Globe and the CC Sunday Times. (Let me know if I've missed something?) Besides, both would appear to be obits, which may or may not be reliable.


 * Secondly, with all due respect, being "important individual to the Cape Verdean community in the United States" is not how notability is determined on Wikipedia.


 * Thirdly, saying that someone else has an article, and therefore this person also should, is a classic WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument. You may have noticed that the Paul Gonsalves article is better referenced, and also his discography consists of several albums with major (and some notable indy) record labels, which factors establish notability of both GNG and MUSICBIO kind.


 * If this person was such an important musician, then I'm sure you will have no trouble finding adequate sources to illustrate that.


 * One more thing: the article states that his name is Felix Barboza, and that he was professionally known as Phil Edmund. But the discography and the Chick Corea articles talk of Phil Barboza. So even the name needs to be referenced/verified somehow.


 * I'm in no way opposed to having this article published; it's just not ready yet. Best, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:28, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Nicolaus Gercken Family Foundation
I will add online references in the coming weeks. The trouble is that the German papers are centuries behind in their online presence. The NYT not only is behind a pay wall, its coverage cited by me pertains to Kissinger's book on the Thirty Years' War, 1618- 1648, not to the Foundation itself. The Foundation was established over the ashes of this war. The post war settlement, the Westphalian peace, concluded aboiut 200 miles from the foundation's headquarters, is a model for the 21st century world acc. to Kissinger. This reference lends gravity to the foundation's history but not notability to become a Wikipedia entry. EckartHReihlen (talk) 12:09, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

BioFoodLab Draft
Hi ! Thank you for reading my submission. I have few comments and questions, if that is fine and you have some time.

1) What does UPE mean? I was asked by a previous editor if I have a connection to the subject matter. I do not, and I gave that editor an explanation for why I am making the entry. The company is very well known in Russia and the region. I lived in that area of the world for a number of years. It is the leading producer of healthy foods/snacks/alternative-meat-protein foods and the main driver of this segment of the industry. And as a long-time vegetarian, I was a customer. 2) I have fixed the Intellinews/Moscow Times link and the other links, as requested. I have a link to the business TV show about the company as well (Friday!). 3) CNN seems to have redone their website and moved all of its video stories from that specific section. They may have stopped the program. But the CNN story/coverage is here: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10155128115313067 I put this link up. 4) Could you give me some pointers regarding the style? I have rewritten this about four times after speaking with editors who asked for a more neutral tone and gave instruction, which I thought I followed. I have been a business/finance editor for newspapers/magazines for the majority of my adult life, but I clearly don't have a handle on what neutral tone means for Wikipedia. Please let me know what I am doing wrong, so I can fix it.

For reference: I initially tried to build the structure of the entry similar to other leading companies in the segment around the world, like Eat Just: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat_Just And I was trying to be sparse with wording/adjectives/etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohannesburgBlues (talk • contribs)


 * A couple of procedural points (no biggies, but just so you know):
 * You don't need to ping me on my talk page, I get notified of messages automatically. (Please do ping me anywhere else, however, as I only get notified of my own talk page messages.)
 * Please sign your messages on any talk page or similar. Either type four tildes (~), or click on the 'signature and timestamp' button above the edit window.
 * Cheers, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:44, 26 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi in answer to your questions:
 * 1) UPE = undeclared paid editing, it's a big no-no; see WP:UPE. You have now clearly stated, both on your talk page and here, that you have no connection with the subject, and therefore per WP:AGF (assuming good faith) we must accept that. I will go and remove the UPE tag from the article draft.
 * 2) Thanks for correcting the links. The Friday show isn't available in the UK, though, therefore I can't see it.
 * 3) That should be okay. Normally social media can't really be used for referencing, but on this occasion it's CNN content that just happens to be hosted on a social media platform. I'll go and make a note of that, though, so it doesn't get redflagged.
 * 4) This is trickier, as promotional tone isn't always obvious or even clearly defined. On this occasion, it's statements like "former fashion model" which caught my attention; to me, that's not really relevant to the subject matter (albeit that it seems to be mentioned in all the sources), it's more 'click bait' material for popular media. Similarly, "number-one snack brand and the innovation leader" — even if Euromonitor actually said that verbatim (which I cannot verify as I don't have access; you presumably do?), to include it in the article gives the impression it was written by a marketing department. I'm not saying much needs to change, but if you can go through the article once more and tone it down, that would certainly help. (And sort of related to that, the Forbes statement is unreferenced.)
 * HTH, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:44, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi. Sorry about the ping. I didn't realize I did that.

1) Understood and thank you. 2) Here is the Friday! show on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zrii83JuBQ 3) Thanks! 4) I have made a number of amendments now to reflect this instruction, and resubmitted.

Thanks!

JohannesburgBlues (talk) 10:39, 26 July 2021 (UTC)JohannesburgBlues

Hi. Someone else rejected the article saying the references were mostly about the CEO, which is not at all the case. Only one of the references is about the CEO. The others mention the CEO, but that makes sense as the company seems to be using her background as part of its story. Should I just chuck the entry? This company deserves a page and I find this rejection/comment random and just wrong. He clearly did not read the links thoroughly. I also cannot leave him a note, because he is on some "wiki-break." But I think if his editing is this careless than there is no point in trying to have a conversation with him. What is your advice?

JohannesburgBlues (talk)JohannesburgBlues


 * sorry to hear that. I left a review comment there earlier saying I felt the article was okay to publish. Another reviewer clearly saw things differently, and I don't wish to dispute that. You basically now have two choices: 1) either try to discuss the matter with the other reviewer, or 2) improve the article with better sources and resubmit. (Well, I guess the third option is to just walk away.)
 * (BTW, on a technical point, the article was only declined, meaning it needs to be developed further. It wasn't rejected, which means it would have been blocked altogether; that's a much tougher fate, and effectively the end of the road.)
 * If you want to look at this in a more positive light, the purpose of the AfC review is to prevent articles being published which would only soon be deleted because they're not up to the required standards. This may not sound very 'positive' to you, but it really is: the Articles for Deletion (AfD) process can be pretty brutal, and once the decision is made to delete, that makes it considerably harder to ever publish the same article again. So when a reviewer (at the pre-publication AfC stage) is saying that they don't feel the draft is ready for publication and would be a likely candidate for deletion, they really are doing the creator a favour, even if it doesn't necessarily always feel like it.
 * Best, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:20, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for this note! OK -- I will add some more references then! JohannesburgBlues (talk)JohannesburgBlues

Jacky_Liew_(Si_Gongzi)
Hi, I would like to ask for the Draft:Jacky Liew (Si Gongzi), it already had approved in the Chinese wikipedia and the notability is proven. Although I might have conflict of interest, but indeed there is notability proven. But most of articles about him is in Chinese. One of your Wikipedia managing Robertsky told me that it is regardless on the languages of the references. Also I don't seems it has peacock terms in there, may you point out and tell me so that I can have a fix. Also, most of the references come from the newspapers and published books in Malaysia. If I want to resubmit again, may you tell me how i going to amend it. Thank you and waiting for your reply. Patricialiew (talk) 20:05, 27 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi in reply to your comments:-
 * The fact that this article may exist in other language versions of Wikipedia is irrelevant, because every version has their own notability etc. criteria.
 * You state that 'notability is proven'. The point of my review, and of the previous one, was precisely the opposite, that it is not proven. Please study carefully the notability guidelines at WP:GNG / WP:ANYBIO.
 * When you say "I might have conflict of interest", that to me sounds like you do, and you are aware of it. You must now respond to the COI query I placed earlier on your talk page, and take the necessary action. Please do not continue editing before you have done that.
 * Thank you. --DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Bromyard CC
Hello! I understand why the History of the Bromyard Cricket Club page was removed due to me copying it from my website page for the club. I will re-write it in different words, which is fine of course. The issue I have is that it appears the club isn’t deemed to be what is referred to as ‘Notable’. I do have a little issue with this as there is a club that are currently 2 divisions below us and have never played in the Birmingham Premier Division either which is Netherton Cricket Club.

Just checking the logic behind it before I waste anymore time invested in creating the page for it to be rejected! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Writerupdate (talk • contribs)


 * A couple of points of order:
 * Please add your comment to the bottom of the page. This is easiest done using the 'start a new topic' link next to the 'speech bubble' at the top of the page.
 * Please sign your messages on any talk page or similar. Either type four tildes (~), or click on the 'signature and timestamp' button above the edit window.
 * Thanks, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:27, 28 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi thanks for your message. In response:
 * Notability is different from 'importance' or 'worthiness', or in this case being two divisions higher than a club that does have its own article; notability is usually defined in terms of what others have said about the subject, and more specifically, what other independent, reliable, secondary sources have said — see WP:GNG. When an article only quotes 'primary' sources, especially ones that are close to the subject (such as, in this case, the club's own website), those do not contribute towards notability.
 * There are also subject-specific notability criteria, and the ones to do with sports are outlined at WP:NSPORT. As you will see there, cricket has its own guidelines, but they're not always easy to interpret for those who don't follow the sport (which I certainly don't), and in any case the guidelines only apply to individual players, not to teams or clubs. To get more knowledgeable input, I have therefore posted the message on the WikiProject Cricket page, and also flagged up the article's talk page with that project's banner, in the hope that others may contribute to the discussion.
 * This is as good a time as any to raise one additional point, namely your involvement with the club in question. I think you posted something on the article talk page about having been playing for the club for many years? And now, if I understand your message above correctly, you also maintain their website? This seems likely to give rise to a conflict of interest, which needs addressing; I will post a message on your own talk page which provides information on how to deal with the matter.
 * Hope this helps, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:07, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

AFC Rejection: UPN
Hi DoubleGrazing, Thanks for your review of my article, I fully understand why you had to reject it. Apologies I haven't had time to get the copyright query sorted, that only came up yesterday. Currently working on seeing if the relevant diagrams have/can be released (I know they have already been released in other sources so hopefully this shouldn't be a problem). Are there any unique processes on wikipedia I have to go through to resolve these copyright issues? You also flagged close paraphrasing of a non-free copyrighted source, was this the only site where this was an issue, or do are there other websites where I will have to sort this.

Finally, in your opinion, even though there is clearly COI have I managed to be sufficiently unbiased in this article? Are there any issues that would come out of this? I have tried to remain as independent as possible and refrain from any advertisement, I am obviously keen to still get this article published so if I need to change anything then please let me know... Many thanks for all your help. --Jameshancock01 (talk) 09:20, 29 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi thanks for your message. In response to your questions:
 * I'm no expert on copyright, or on the way Wikipedia (or rather, Wikimedia Commons, where these images reside) handles these things, but if you look at the file pages such as this one, there should be some instructions. You can also ask for help and advice . Or you could try working with the editor who posted on your own talk page about the copyright issue; they're bound to know more about this topic than I do.
 * Here are the copyvio detector results which show a number of sites with potential issues. Some may have perfectly innocent explanations, but it's probably worth checking against all with, say, 20% or higher similarity rating.
 * To be honest, I didn't analyse the article contents in any great detail, for neutral point of view or otherwise, since the draft failed at the earlier hurdle of copyright.
 * Finally regarding the COI issue, I noticed on your user page that you've stated you have an employment relationship with an organisation that may be somehow connected with the article subject. This may constitute paid editing, which needs to be formally disclosed — see WP:UPE (and also that page more generally).
 * Hope this helps, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:04, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Edit summary
Thanks so much for the advice on edit summaries. I wasn't aware of this.

Vedlagt (talk) 19:19, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

AfC Rejection of Utopia Deals
If you will look at the last decline of my afc, I pointed out that just because the title contains the CEO’s name and not the company’s doesn’t mean the company has no coverage. Please, actually read the sources before declining AFC’s on their basis. RealKnockout (talk) 09:27, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
 * please don't presume to know what I did or did not read; I looked at the sources and concluded that they were not sufficient to satisfy GNG. You're welcome to disagree, and you can always resubmit the draft if you wish. --DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:49, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Mark Tangri
Would uploading pictures of his Diplomas constitute viable sources? If not, where could I improve my source selection in particular? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kieron Taylor (talk • contribs)


 * Hi thanks for dropping by.
 * There are two separate but related points regarding sourcing:
 * The need to provide verifiable evidence of statements made in the article, such as qualifications and academic positions etc. For that, any reliable source is enough, including websites of universities, professional bodies, etc.
 * There is also the need to demonstrate that the subject is notable, ie. warrants an entry in an encyclopaedia. For that, you need to show significant coverage in multiple independent, reliable secondary sources (see WP:GNG). The exception to that requirement is where an academic has a substantial research and/or teaching career behind them, to the extent that they are recognised as a leading expert in their field, hold a prestigious position such as a named chair, etc. (see WP:NPROF).
 * I don't think uploading or otherwise displaying diplomas or similar documents is a good idea. If nothing else, it might be a security problem: recently universities were asking new graduates not to post detailed pictures of their degree certs on social media, because that makes forgery easier.
 * Hope this helps, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:11, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
 * PS: Please sign your posts on any talk page, either by typing four tildes (~) or clicking on the 'signature and timestamp' button above the edit window. Thanks.

About Draft:Agnes Ludwig Riddle
I must admit I am somewhat puzzled by the "Its abidance of WP:GNG is low, as it does not have significant coverage by any reliable source" comment on this draft. It would appear to me Ludwig Riddle passes the the WP:NPOL test as both a member of the Colorado House of Representatives and senator in the Colorado Senate. Given that Ludwig Riddle died in 1930, in my opinion it would unreasonable to ask for current 2021 updates. It would also ask you to consider whether the "Strong Sisters" text may well have copied from from other websites - that can be remedied    Shirt58 (talk) 10:44, 1 August 2021 (UTC)


 * just so we're clear, I declined this on the basis that the content appears to be a possible copyvio. (FWIW, I agree that as a legislator she probably does meet NPOL.) --DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:10, 1 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Just so we are double-clear, I looked at the notability issues (which is a good thing) but didn't properly look into the the copy-vio issues (which is very, very bad thing - see WP:ADMINACCT and a black mark against my name). As the brilliant motto - in both Latin and Italian - of Monash University says, "ancora imparo": I am still learning. Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 10:41, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed, the main issue was with copyvios, not necessarily the notability aspect; in truth there is still a majority of copied content, but there's no real way to re-word things which is why it survived the G12. Primefac (talk) 19:55, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Keep the Article,
Well, when it comes to notabilty, what are we looking at? This is Africa where information are mostly not online. All the sources provided indicate the school is widely noted. This article deserves to be kept. Kwaku Berko (talk) 17:18, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Grove Estate Wines
Hi DoubleGrazing, thank you for your review comments. I have removed the images, and there is no COI relating to this company or page. Are there any other changes that you can suggest?

Sophia4100 (talk) 22:27, 2 August 2021 (UTC)Sophia4100

Melissa Odabash Article
Hi @DoubleGrazing, thank you for reading my submission!

Just following up on your comment "This seems to me like an unnecessary fork from Melissa Odabash, where some of this content is already covered. If, essentially, the person is the brand, and the brand is the person, then why have separate articles? There are no separate articles on, say, Karl Lagerfeld's person and brand."

Karl Lagerfeld's personal Wikipedia page (like Melissa Odabash's) is primarily focused on the individual. I would argue that the Karl Lagerfeld company is a separate entity - after all, Karl Lagerfeld passed away two years ago and the company continues to trade, grow and develop. Where else would be appropriate to document information like who the current CEO is, who its new creative directors are and where they are taking the brand, where its offices and stores are located, its key products and lines, famous wearers, cultural references etc. This information is all lacking on Wikipedia currently.

It actually seems to me that Wikipedia's convention for fashion houses is to have separate pages for the founder and brand e.g.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tory_Burch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tory_Burch_LLC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Choo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Choo_(fashion_house)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_McQueen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_McQueen_(brand)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Lang_(artist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Lang_(fashion_brand)

In light of the points made above, this seems to be most beneficial to those of us with an interest in this area.

Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by KapowKapow (talk • contribs)


 * thank you, noted. You are of course free to resubmit, in case another reviewer will accept the draft. Best, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:42, 3 August 2021 (UTC) (PS: Please sign your comments on any talk page. And please don't edit both logged in and logged out.)

ex muslims of kerala
https://exmuslimsofkerala.org/

This is their official website. It has been already registered.

please approve the Wikipedia draft : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Ex-Muslims_of_Kerala


 * Thank you for informing me, but having a website is not a notability criterion.
 * And unfortunately I'm still unable to approve that draft, as there is nothing to indicate that this organisation is notable, per WP:GNG or WP:ORG.
 * Thank you, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:09, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * (PS: Please sign your comments on any talk page, and if you have a registered account, please do not edit while logged out.)

Submission declined on 2 August 2021 by DoubleGrazing (talk).
Hello, I understand you are against the practice of paid editing on Wikipedia but it doesnt mean that me getting paid means what I wrote isnt good.. I did my research and I will never submit something I believe is not good enough. I want to point out I did fix it and I did add more sources but the draft has had to begin with very reliable sources such as: forbes, vogue.gr, area, maariv and more. Also, I dont understand why you wrote "nothing is fixed" and it must be so personal and not be direct and not hurtful. Is this becuase its paid or since Yosef is Israeli and not American? He is an artisit who won prizes such as "Artist of the Month" by the American Autodesk, has sales over 1 million dollar and his work is published as well as working with well known people. Can you please point out the main issue following what I wrote? Thank you, ברטוביניו (talk) 08:56, 3 August 2021 (UTC)


 * thanks for your message regarding Draft:Gal Yosef. A few points in response:
 * I didn't write "nothing is fixed"; I wrote "nothing is 'fixed' " — the 'fixed' was in reference to you writing 'fixed' when resubmitting, as if all the issues had been resolved. They hadn't: the tone is still promotional, the notability is still borderline, and worst of all, the 'Biography' and 'Personal life' sections are completely unreferenced. Put all that together, and the article is IMO not yet ready for publication.
 * I would advise you not to try to turn this into some sort of anti-Israel case, because that is only one step away from accusing me of certain ugly prejudices, which I will not appreciate. If you want to argue the merits of your article, by all means do so, but I would be grateful if you could keep those sort of insinuations to yourself.
 * As for my views on paid editing, I feel I am entitled to them, just like you clearly feel entitled to engage in paid editing. And just so we're clear: my views on this matter were not the reason why I declined the draft.
 * I stand by my review, and do not intend to revert it. The best I can offer is that I will not review this again, should it come up for the third time; perhaps you will have more luck with another reviewer. Regards, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:35, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi, first of all I did not try to make it ani Israel, I was reffering to him not being American. I do not believe it even and I am sorry if this is your imperrion and I stand corrected.

secondlly, personal life needs to be refrenced? him living, being married and has a child? I was not aware. I can add a source to the Biography section easly. As for the tone, can you pleae point out in what so I can fix it? I very much want to resubmit it after I will fix what you point out needs to be fixed - if your willing that is. Again, I am very sorry and this was not my intetion at all! ברטוביניו (talk) 10:46, 3 August 2021 (UTC)


 * why would you think that personal details and similar content don't need to be supported by sources, just the same as (if not better than) anything else? It would open the door for anyone to write whatever they want — good or bad — about the subject's private life. Also, there are special considerations when writing about living people or those associated with them: case in point, the draft mentions family members by name, without citing any sources, which is expressly forbidden (see WP:BLPNAME). --DoubleGrazing (talk) 16:20, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello again, I removed the name and I will find a source for it. Is there anything else you recommend doing? ברטוביניו (talk) 08:28, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I cannot find a source for him being married and has a kid other than his Hebrew wiki or his instagram profile, is that good?


 * I don't know if IG is a suitable source to support something like that, and Wikipedia cannot be used as source for Wikipedia; however, I would rather ask why do the family members need to be mentioned in the first place — are they somehow relevant to why and how this person is notable (assuming)? Other than that short comment, I don't think I want to be drawn into contributing to this article, and in any case I wouldn't have any expertise in the subject matter. Best, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 13:36, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I understand and I will remove it. It bothers me a little the other part you wrote but I understand that as well and thank you for everything. I will remove it and resubmit it. ברטוביניו (talk) 14:10, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Patience Masisi
For the Patience Masisi Article, the magazines were not self-published. They were published by the South African government, through the South African National Defence Force. The LinkedIn article was also published by them, reliable information about the LinkedIn link was provided in that article. It was not a post. It was a published article. Also, the medals were mentioned in both the magazines & the African Union observer references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coatshut80 (talk • contribs)


 * by 'self-published' I didn't mean published by the article subject themselves, I meant published by the organisation in question (as in, the military publishing a 'magazine' about themselves, etc.), ie. a WP:PRIMARY source; apologies for the unclear choice of words. All the same, primary sources do not contribute towards notability.
 * As for the medals, they may well have been mentioned in the sources, but my point was that those sources were not cited, therefore the reader has no idea where the information has come from. If they are indeed mentioned, as you say, then all you need to do is cite the sources in the appropriate manner.
 * Finally, please sign your messages on any talk page (either type four tildes, or click on the 'signature and timestamp' button. Also, kindly post your message on the bottom of a talk page, in a separate new section. Thanks, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 17:43, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

2020 Rugby Europe Women's Championship
Hi. Saw your note on the creator's webpage. While I think it should remain in draft, I was incorrect about it being unsourced. If you look at the results section, there are "reports" on each game, which, while not labeled as references, do count as references. I have removed all the un-cited material in the hopes that editor will put the effort needed into the article. They haven't shown a history of willingness to collaborate or even communicate, so we'll see. And btw, thank you for all you do over at AfC, it's a pretty thankless job.  Onel 5969  TT me 13:16, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi yeah, the note on their talk page, which they promptly deleted. :) (As is their right, of course.)
 * Thanks for pointing out those 'reports', I had completely missed them also. I guess that's a useful reminder that I need to look beyond the obvious References section. Of course, a simple edit note when this was moved to main space would could have been left to point that out, but ... hey ho. Cheers, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 13:32, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , yeah, you'll see those in sports articles, although the editor is usually smart enough to label them "ref" rather than "source". Regardless, take care.  Onel 5969  TT me 14:07, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Patricia Jean Cooper
Thank you for editing Patricia's page. I wonder why being hired out of graduate school as the only female professor in an all-male science department in 1965 at a prestigious university does not count as notable, especially when that woman wrote two key articles on the movement of cells (cited hundreds of times, which you can see by clicking on the hyperlinks provided to the articles). Her discoveries were notable and her perseverance (in the fact of a great deal of sexism) was incredible, and that was backed up--at least verbally and on record--by her mentor Robert Eakin, who spoke to a crowd at her memorial service about her scientific discoveries. It is not surprising that Patricia's being one of the first (and perhaps THE first) woman to use an electron microscope seems to have escaped the science history textbooks. I have no record of this beyond what I heard from her, before her death in 1988. I am her daughter. I understand that may be a "conflict of interest" but I also know more about her than any living person.

Patricia was a "hidden figure" in the biological sciences and she also wrote a book that put quilting on the map as a legitimate art form at the same time that the Whitney Museum in NYC had its first quilt exhibit. Patricia's book was there in the museum store. Is Wikipedia an appropriate place to bring such figures to light, or is it not? If Patricia had been a white man, bringing forth a humble white man's art form (playing the banjo for example) into the foreground, would her entry be accepted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by WillaBlythe (talk • contribs)


 * Hello thanks for your message.


 * It seems from many of the points you raise that you may be confusing notability with 'noteworthiness' or 'importance'. Please study the concept of WP:N notability as defined in the Wikipedia context. Much of it hinges on what other (independent and reliable) sources are on record as having written or said about a subject; not on what the subject is or has done, per se. A closely related issue is that of WP:V verifiability: whether you know something to be the case (such as what you heard from your mother) isn't what matters; what matters is whether you can cite some reliable evidence of this which others can check and verify should they so wish. And yes, this does create something of a paradox: a person who has done amazing things but has remained a "hidden figure", as you put it, may struggle to meet the notability criteria, while someone with lesser achievements but better 'publicity' may be notable. This may not be a perfect system, perhaps, but it's the one we're tasked with applying. And to answer your first question directly: yes, Wikipedia can be the place to "bring such figures to light"; however, it is not the place to generate notability that does not otherwise exist, it is only the place to reflect the light of notability already surrounding a figure.


 * And to answer your second question, "If Patricia had been a white man..." etc.: this has nothing to do with the matter, and I resent even the suggestion. I did not know Patricia's skin colour (still don't), not that this would have mattered in the slightest. I obviously understood her to be a woman, but as someone who has done my share of creating articles on women's biographies to help address the gender imbalance as part of the Women in Red initiative, I can assure you that this did not in any way count against her in this case; if anything, quite the opposite. (Why is it that everyone seems to immediately assume some prejudice at play, when things don't go according to their liking? I just had someone here earlier implying that I was anti-Zionist, for not accepting an article on an Israeli artist. I expect next I will be accused of being against white Christian men, when I decline a draft on one.)


 * Finally, you being Patricia's daughter does create a clear conflict of interest, and I would advise you to formally disclose it now, following the advice in the COI message posted on your talk page earlier.


 * Best Regards, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:16, 5 August 2021 (UTC)


 * PS: Please sign your messages on any talk page, by typing four tildes (~) or clicking on the 'signature and timestamp' button above the edit window. Thank you.


 * Thank you for your response. Evoking resentment was not my intention, and it is unfortunate that it landed that way. I am frustrated, as you can see. Actually color and gender biases are unconscious, as research has demonstrated. To believe any of us are above those unconscious biases is exactly what perpetuates them. My frustration should not have been taken personally and was not meant as a personal affront. I am venting frustration on behalf of women scientists (and professionals) everywhere. The lack of data and secondary sources may well reflect an actual bias in our culture...I am pointing that out and I hope you are not above seeing it. A graceful response to my comments (that would have mollified me) might have been..."I understand your frustration. I too am frustrated with a history of racism and patriarchy in our society and take your concerns seriously, as does Wikipedia. I will reflect on your comments and share them with my team". I disclosed my conflict of interest in this entry as soon as I understood it to be an issue....it was pointed out on the page. Thank you.WillaBlythe (talk) 12:52, 5 August 2021 (UTC)


 * thank you for your reply. However, may I just point out that in what comes to this article draft, my role was to review it according to Wikipedia guidelines, not to attempt to 'mollify' you as the article creator.
 * I have additionally tried to help you better understand the issue of notability and verifiability (etc.) — core principles, as well as the specific reasons for declining the draft — so that you can improve the article and perhaps eventually get it published. I can see that didn't go down very well, so I won't be trying again.
 * Finally, I don't particularly want or need to have the concept of unconscious bias explained to me, especially as it only serves to perpetuate your earlier implication that I declined this draft on some other than policy basis.
 * I think that is all I have to say about this matter. Regards, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 12:58, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

ICS Outsourcing Limited Article
Regarding the Draft:ICS Outsourcing Limited,Thank you DoubleGrazing for notifying me of the AfC review process. I just though it is okay to move the dart into article when i search for the name and see that the name and write is legit. I will like to learn from you if you dont mind. what are the steps or what do you think I can do to contribute to the article Draft:ICS Outsourcing Limited. Also do you think I should look for more reference source for it? I will hoping to read from you soon. Olaintel (talk) 12:24, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi very simply, you need more sources like the Guardian article, which are reliable and independent, and discuss the subject in depth. And all material statements in the article need to be supported by citing such sources. (Also, you shouldn't copy & paste anything from other sources, everything must be written in your own words. I'm not saying you have done that, just pointing it out as an important principle.) Everything else, such as cleaning up that infobox, is secondary, and can always be dealt with through editing. HTH, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 13:14, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello, thank you for your response. I will work on that and notify you once done.. thank you once again. Olaintel (talk) 13:18, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Managing a conflict of interest
Hello, thank you for your review of my draft and your comment on my talk page. I don't have an affiliate to the company I wrote about. and you can check, I've owned this account for years. Pls how can I improve the draft, and what do I need to add? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orlaryemy (talk • contribs)

Response to your comments
Thanks for your comments on my article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Gracefield_Island It's actually a new city/metropolis under development, not a recreation-only island. It is called an island because the city sits in the lagoon. I've added a section on 'development milestones' for more details. MooNeighTalk (talk) 15:59, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Reporting Abusing accounts
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Tamilianda https://hi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF_%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BE:Tamilianda The account is abusing very harshly using vulgar terms and racism. The above links shows the behaviour. Please ban him permanently.

परवीनसिंहमिश्र4 is name of the account in Hindi Wikipidea. Tamilianda (talk) 08:19, 9 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi I'm not an admin and have no powers to ban or block anyone, please take your case to WP:ANI or similar forum if you feel strongly enough about it. Thanks, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:30, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Malaria Mukt Chhattisgarh Abhiyan
Hello Sir, Greetings We are working on creating the page of Malaria Mukt Chhattisgarh Abhiyan. We beg to differ on changing the name of the campaign to English as the original name of the govt's campaign is in Hindi. Schemes like "Pradhan Mantri Awas Yojana" have the title in Hindi itself. Changing the title will technically change the name of the campaign. Therefore, we humbly request you to guide us on the same. Also, since the campaign is relatively new, we do not have many English articles for referencing. Can we use Hindi articles to support the statements. Additionally, can we re-reference our sources for citing the facts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrCG36 (talk • contribs)


 * thanks for your message. Firstly, please sign your comments on all talk pages. Secondly, it was just a suggestion to use the English word 'Free', seeing as that was also used at the beginning of the lead section; I don't much mind either way, and in any case the other name can be used as a redirect wherever the article lives. Thirdly, yes, you can use non-English-language sources, as long as they are otherwise reliable, independent, etc. per WP:RS. Hope this helps, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:44, 9 August 2021 (UTC)