User talk:Double sharp/Telerin

Namagrie translation
Just to get a flavour of it so I can write about it better. Vincente Velasco's version seriously needs updating to what we now know about Telerin grammar and phonology! (If you have not read the article, try to see what is going on first before you read my commentary on the translation!)

Namárie Ai! laurie lantar lassi súrinen, yéni únótime ve rámar aldaron! Yéni ve linte yuldar avánier mi oromardi lisse-miruvóreva Andúne pella, Vardo tellumar nu luini yassen tintilar i eleni ómaryo airetári-lírinen.

Sí man i yulma nin enquantuva?

An sí Tintalle Varda Oiolosseo ve fanyar máryat Elentári ortane ar ilye tier unduláve lumbule ar sindanóriello caita mornie i falmalinnar imbe met, ar hísie untúpa Calaciryo míri oiale. Sí vanwa na, Rómello vanwa, Valimar!

Namárie! Nai hiruvalye Valimar! Nai elye hiruva! Namárie!

Namagrie Ai! glaureai dantai lassi ma fūrio Yēni ūnōtimai be rāmai gallaio! Yēni be lintai yullai avānī, mi orobardi lisse-limpe ria Endūne pella, nu Baradiso telumi luini mi ya tintilai i elni ma glīre ōmo ria gairitārio.

Sī man i yulma nin empantuba?

An sī Tintalle Baradis et Uiolosseo be spaniai yūmā ria Elnitāri ortane, ar iliai tī undulābe dumbule ar et findadōro caita mornie i falmamna imbe yūme, ar hīþie untūpa i mīri ria Calaciria mina uiale. Sī vanua nā, et Rōmeno vanua, Balaibar!

Namagrie! Na i hirubadie Balaibar! Na i edie hiruba. Namagrie!

Farewell Ah! like gold fall the leaves in the wind, long years numberless as the wings of trees! The long years have passed like swift draughts of the sweet mead in lofty halls beyond the West, beneath the blue vaults of Varda wherein the stars tremble in the voice of her song, holy and queenly.

Who now shall refill the cup for me?

For now the Kindler, Varda, the Queen of the stars, from Mount Everwhite has uplifted her hands like clouds and all paths are drowned deep in shadow; and out of a grey country darkness lies on the foaming waves between us, and mist covers the jewels of Calacirya for ever. Now lost, lost to those of the East is Valimar!

Farewell! Maybe thou shalt find Valimar! Maybe even thou shalt find it! Farewell!

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

8

9 10 11 12 13 14 15

16 17

Commentary
Perhaps one day I shall add a Vanyarin Quenya translation and show how Telerin is certainly not a Quenya dialect by showing something which actually is a Quenya dialect!

I have not used asterisks for unattested words as that would deface nearly the entire translation. I assumed Telerin keeps -ss-. Where I have no information otherwise, I assumed that Telerin would construct words and sentences similarly to Quenya.

Rhyming works pretty well in Telerin, doesn't it? ;-)


 * 1) I assumed that Ai! would be the same in both languages, being just an interjection. On T glaureai, the root is (G)LÁWA-, with Telerin g-prefixation. Adjectives ending in -ea having plurals in -ie is a Ñoldorin invention that the Teleri probably didn't adopt (they didn't adopt r-plurals, for example). Q lantar is from DAT/DANT, hence would be T dantai with initial d and i-plural in Telerin. lassi has final e becoming i in Telerin plural forms, as it does in Quenya. Presumably Quenya agreement rules apply here too. Q súrinen could have þ or s, given stem variation (THŪ "blow", SŪ "wind"); so the Telerin could also correctly read sūrio. Telerin has no instrumental, using T ma (T mā is sometimes seen, although I'm using this only for the original "hand" meaning) and the genitive.
 * 2) I will not point out Telerin i-plurals after ūnōtimai (from NOT > Q nóte "number", presumably T nōte). ve was variously derived by Tolkien from primitive wē, bē (ignoring the, to me, dubious vai); I have used the latter, yielding Telerin be, to avoid clashing with the Quenya pronoun we (let's not have them merged from the beginning. I will not mention words that come out the same way in Telerin as Quenya unless they are especially noteworthy. T galla "tree" is attested, making plural T gallai and genitive T gallaio (there is no second plural ending, as in Quenya).
 * 3) I have assumed adjectives may be pluralized in Telerin as in Quenya throughout (reminder). T yullai has i-plural and assimilation of -ld- to -ll- of Telerin. T avānie would pose problems in pluralization (hiatus -ii); since the Tengwar treat long vowels as doubled vowels for Quenya, I have speculatively changed this to -ī.
 * 4) T *orobardi: cf. S Bar-in-Danwedh. The stem for the first part is ORO, so no change there. I have used T *limpe instead of T *miruvōre, as Velasco, as the Teleri would not have been contacted much by the Valar, save Ulmo only; but they could plausibly have borrowed the Ñoldorin word. I have translated the possessive here as "swift draughts / the sweet mead its" literally; this is the Telerin way to form possessive constructions.
 * 5) -nd, when made syllabic and then has an initial vowel added, has that initial vowel be e rather than a in Telerin; hence Endūne. I have assumed that pella is also a postposition in Telerin; otherwise, read pell'Endūne. Similarly to limpe, I have assumed that the Valarin delgûmâ was not borrowed into Telerin, and used T *telume, plural *telumi, from the original Q telume that predated Valarin influence.
 * 6) I have stopped the word order from becoming almost nonsensical, as it does in the original Quenya! T luine "blue", plural *luini. I used T *mi instead of the locative, as Telerin may do. T elni is the poetic word.
 * 7) I think the genitive would apply to the noun, not the possessive pronoun, in Telerin. Hence *ōmo ria. I messed with the word order.
 * 8) I don't have VT49, which may contradict me on the future tense ending (copied from Quenya with v > b).
 * 9) Ablative denoted by et + genitive. We have late Telerin oi > ui: hence Uiolosseo (cf. uiale below in line 14).
 * 10) Dual formed by prefixing yū-. T Gallu is probably a loanword from Quenya and not indicative of a general dual form, based on Tolkien's comment on yūnece "twelve" and enec, enece "six". I presume Telerin would tolerate final long vowels (cf. T gāialā).
 * 11) Does primitive N also possibly become nd in Telerin?
 * 12) I used the form Q nóre to derive this, not Q *nórie as in the original Quenya.
 * 13) With -m for partitive plural and -na for allative. But we have "In Telerin final n (< m, n) was not lost" (VT42:24); presumably, the base form would be falman, and the m only shows up if we then add an ending?
 * 14) Dual with yū-. I assumed the pronouns are the same in Telerin.
 * 15) mina oiale = "into forever" (which Fauskanger suggests is the actual meaning here, not simply "forever").
 * 16) The last word is just a calque of Quenya Valimar. Q vanwa is originally from wanwa, hence the Telerin should be *vanua (note that Telerin v actually represents the sound [w])!
 * 17) I have separated out Q nai to T *na *i. Such separation of endings seems characteristic of Telerin (cf. *vomentie *nguo, cava ria). Velasco does this too.

Discussion
That's some great work, Double sharp. So let's see what I can contribute.
 * 1) I think the genitives should be different. The r in Q. súrinen is part of the case suffix but not of the stem (cf. nominative súle), so it shouldn't occur in Telerin. The Primitive Quendian root is thû, so Telerin for "wind" should be something like fū or even fūl(e). Which makes the genitive singular fūlo and plural fūlio. The same goes for the equivalent of Q. aldaron: The Primitive root of this word is gâlad (which survves almost unchanged in S. galadh), so I think the Telerin genitive plural should be galadio so the final consonant of the stem is kept.
 * I changed *fūrio to *fūlo. On gallaio, we have galla = tree in Telerin (with vowel syncope and ld > ll), which is how I made up plural *gallai and genitive plural *gallaio. The development seems to be CE galadā > OT galda (syncope before CE stress) > T galla. Double sharp (talk) 05:08, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait, Fauskanger analyzes this as PQ sûri [sic] > Q súre (súri with endings, such as -nen). If he's right then I would indeed expect T *fūrio (PQ thūri > T fūri, then with genitive ending o suffixed). Double sharp (talk) 05:18, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * (more to come) De728631 (talk) 20:43, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Tengwar names
1 t tinco, 2 p parma, 3 c calma, 5 d dūmen, 6 b bala, 7 g galda, 9 þ þarmen, 10 f formen, 11 ch acha, 17 nēn, 18 malta, 19 golodo (if the sound was phonemic in Telerin, which Tolkien sometimes states; I like this idea because it gives a more symmetrical consonant system), 21 ōre, 22 vilia, 23 anna (using this for y may be visually misleading, but makes more sense than anything else), 25 rōmen, 26 garda, 27 lambe, 29 silime, 30 silime nuperna, 31 esse nuperna, 33 (34?) halla, 35 yanta, 36 ūre

Nasalized stops through nasalization diacritic (tilde above). Double sharp (talk) 16:06, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Hec
What's the Hec element in the name of Beleriand? —Tamfang (talk) 20:31, 1 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Oh, there it is in Quendi and Eldar (at which I had not looked in a long time): the Sindar are 'the forsaken'. —Tamfang (talk) 21:47, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Italian
Telerin (according to Etym) and Italian conserve initial sk st sp. In proto-Q and proto-S these became kh th ph; in French they became éc ét ép. —Tamfang (talk) 21:09, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, cool parallel! I guess it's one of those faint similarities that remained long after the pre-Etym stage, as opposed to the pre-Etym stronger similarities (especially T morta, mars "fate"!) But I cannot find an example of sc- in Telerin in Etym, although I can find st- (stalga "steady, firm", from STÁLAG-) and sp- (spanga "beard", from SPÁNAG-, CE spangā). I do find sk in the pre-Etym list from PE13, reproduced in reference 1 (Teleri lambëo minaþurië): there in scanta ("a blow with an axe"; &lt; skantá). Double sharp (talk) 14:36, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Revival of draft
Hi ! I somehow found this draft while lurking for sources for Telerin. Would you mind if I would try to revive it? It wouldn't be today or tomorrow as I'm quite busy, but it would be nice to know what you think about it. Artem.G (talk) 16:16, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Sure, go ahead! Double sharp (talk) 17:27, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I found this today; if you haven't seen it, you'd probably like it. (BTW, the point made about Telerin being illuminated by both Sindarin and Quenya is precisely what attracted me to it. :D) Double sharp (talk) 13:54, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
 * nice, thanks for the link! I've little time now, but maybe I'll return to Telerin draft some time later this year :) Artem.G (talk) 09:12, 16 February 2024 (UTC)