User talk:Doug butler/Archive6

February 2008
Welcome, and thank you for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and it has been reverted or removed. Please take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you would like to experiment further, please use the sandbox. Please do not sign the article mainspaces; signatures are only for talk pages. Enviroboy TalkCs 05:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

User talk archives

 * BTW how does one create a User talk archive? Doug butler (talk) 21:51, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * There are lots of ways it can be done, some of them automatic, but I've had no success with the automatic ones, (and anyway, being the control freak that I am, I actually prefer to have control over what's happening.)
 * So I do it manually. And there are several ways you can do that, too.
 * Probably/possibly the easiest/best way to do it, (certainly a better way to do it than what I do, but I only discovered this method in the last year - had I discovered it earlier, I would probably use it), is the two step process:
 * 1) Use "move page" to rename your talk page (e.g. move "User talk:Doug butler" to "User talk:Doug butler/Archive 1")
 * 2) "User talk:Doug butler" will then become a redirect to "User talk:Doug butler/Archive 1". Edit "User talk:Doug butler" - remove the redirect and replace it with the stuff (copied from "User talk:Doug butler/Archive 1") that you like having on the top of your talk page.
 * Then, next time you want to archive, move "User talk:Doug butler" to "User talk:Doug butler/Archive 2"
 * Etc.
 * Hope that helps. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:38, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you. That seems to have worked. Doug butler (talk) 15:00, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Doug butler/archive1 User talk:Doug butler/archive 2 User talk:Doug butler/Archive 3 User talk:Doug butler/Archive 4 User talk:Doug butler/Archive 5

List of Australian AM broadcasting stations.
Dear Doug,

I refer back to our conversations in October 2017 re the above site. I've only just now noticed that the site has been up and running since November. At this stage, I've only had a quick glance but it looks good. I will look at it properly when I can.

One thing I did notice is that there is no reference to 2CM - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2CM - I believe that reference should be added. I concede that 2CM is little known although it's a real hobby horse of Bruce Carty's. I actually set up the 2CM Wiki page for Bruce on account of his limited computer knowledge. By the way, were you able to get a copy of Bruce's book? If so, did you find it of use? Although I seem to keep talking abut Bruce, I consider him more an acquaintance than a friend. I emailed him with a long list of suggestions after I purchased an early edition of his book. That was the first time we had had anything to do with one another. Apart from one phone call, our correspondence has been purely by email.

Please send any reply to my talk page.

Regards, Albert Isaacs (talk) 23:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Dear Doug,

Good to hear from you. According to Carty, 2CM commenced in 1921 on 214 KHz, before moving to shortwave on 21-2-1924. I really do think it deserves a place, particularly as there can be a link to a Wiki page.

I know exactly what you mean about throwing old annuals such of WRTH. I threw out a few old WRTHs myself, along with a lot of other stuff that I now regret. That being said, I do still have 1980 and 1983 copies. Nevertheless, I always find that one of the best ways of buying old books is through the AbeBooks website. I googled in WTRH 1974 - 1980 on AbeBooks and this is what I came up with: https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?bi=0&bx=off&cm_sp=SearchF-_-Advtab1-_-Results&ds=30&recentlyadded=all&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=World+Radio+TV+Handbook&yrh=1980&yrl=1974. As you can see the price range is absolutely ridiculous: from US$17.60 plus US$9.36 postage for a 1979 copy, to US$231.97 plus US$11.79 postage for 1975.

In answer to the next obvious question: yes, I've tried a couple of times to see whether there were any copies of Carty available on AbeBooks, firstly when we were first in contact, and then again earlier today. No luck either time.

Regards, Albert Isaacs (talk) 02:13, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Dear Doug,

I'm interested in the broadcasting side of radio but don't pretend to know much about the technicalities. Even so, you make a good point - would the fact that there would have been very few other stations to interfere, make the difference. Anyway, I'm only copying Carty's statistics.

Do the WRTH's on AbeBooks interest? I find it intriguing that most of the booksellers with copies of WRTH are German. Were there a lot of German radio hams?

Regards Albert Isaacs (talk) 04:47, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

G'day again Doug,

Of course you're obviously correct in that the main users of WRTH would be DXers. Regarding the probable large number in Germany, your theory about the Iron Curtain could well be correct. Then again, is it possible for this to go back to the Third Reich? Would there have been enough Germans opposed to Hitler to want to know what the outside world was saying about Germany, and the War? Perhaps it's a combination of these two historical facts.

I've had another very quick look at your site and notice that there's no mention of the ABC's two experimental stations started in 1975; namely 2JJ Sydney and 3ZZ Melbourne. Do you wish to add these? Alternatively, I can add something, particularly re the former. I happen to have a copy of Joan Dugdale's 1979 book Radio Power: Access Radio 3ZZ. Despite what I've just said, I'd prefer it if you made the additions as you're obviously more familiar with the format of the table that you've set up. I can give you some info re 3ZZ if you need it. (Incidentally, way back when, I made a number of programs for 3ZZ.)

When I clicked onto your talk page, I couldn't help noticing that you've just been asked to become a new page reviewer for Wikipedia. Whether or not you accept this, it's certainly a great honour to have been asked!

Regards, Albert Isaacs (talk) 22:56, 26 n2017 (UTC)

G'day again Doug,

I've paused from listening to a 3 hour montage of Michael Palin programs to answer your note. It's on my favourite on-line radio station, BBC Radio Four Extra, the station that rebroadcasts all the old BBC radio dramas, comedies, quizzes, etc.

All right, I'll add something but it'll either be later today or tomorrow. Both these stations were commenced under instructions from the Whitlam government. Of course, 2JJ was an experimental pop music station and still exists as JJJ FM; 3ZZ only lasted a little over two years and was Australia's very first community radio station, albeit run by the ABC with studios in Hardware Lane, Melbourne. It was closed by the Fraser government because of the station's left-wing bias. (I won't say "perceived bias" because the bias was certainly there.) The 3ZZZ Wikipedia page includes a brief history of 3ZZZ's predecessor 3ZZ.

I agree with what you say about being a new page reviewer. Apart from the reasons cited by you (all correct), it'd probably take up a lot of time.

Regards, Albert Isaacs (talk) 23:54, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Dear Doug,

Have a look at what I've added re 2JJ & 3ZZ and see if you want to make any changes. I've also made modifications to the section on 3YB Mobile. Is there a reason why the other mobile stations, 2XT & 9MI, haven't been included? Also, I think you should list all the WWII Australian military stations - although the 19 such stations were all operated overseas, they had an Aussie call sign with a "9" prefix and were completely controlled and operated by Australian army/navy authorities. If you haven't got a full list of them, I can give it to you.

Re 3ZZ: there is an unofficial story as to how the ZZ call sign was selected - it's said that the station was named after it's two founders within the ABC, George Zangalis and Richard Zoeller.

Regards, Albert Isaacs (talk) 06:16, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

G'day again Doug,

Of course I realise that I can make the changes but, frankly, because they're a bit complicated, especially within the format that you've devised, I'd be happier to leave it up to you.

I give a number of lectures on various diverse subjects at a number of U3As and historical societies. My PowerPoints are complete including all my notes. My PowerPoint "History of Broadcasting in Australia" includes a section on mobile stations, and my PowerPoint "Railways at War", includes a list of all "9" military stations. (I've just checked and 2XT was on the MW band, but 9MI is outside your area as it was SW.) If you're comfortable with giving me your email address, I'd like to send you the full "History of Broadcasting" PowerPoint, along with the relevant slide re military stations. You may find other things of interest, particularly in the former.

When you add the military stations, please use the following as the reference: Major Jim Gordon, Museum Manager, Royal Australian Signals Museum.

On a different subject, you appear to have listed two RPH stations but, of course, there is one in every capital city.

I do hope that you're comfortable with me handing most of this over to you - I really think that it's the best way. That being said, I've made some alterations to the 3SR listing to reflect that although the original 3SR is now 3SRR FM, the 3SR call sign still exists for a 3UZ relay.

Regards, Albert Isaacs (talk) 23:26, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Dear Doug,

Did you get the email I sent to you yesterday? If you didn't I not surprised because the address you gave me was a Wikipedia "no reply" address. However, it didn't bounce back to me. In your email to me you said" I have it enabled" and I thought that that meant I may have been able to use this "no reply" address. Anyway, I've included my email at the foot of this message but, obviously, my attachment (the main reason for sending the email) cannot be included.

I am intrigued as to how you got my email address. Is this allied to the fact that Wikipedia asked me to update my email address. I didn't even realise that they had an old address for me.

Dear Doug,

Because of the general address, please confirm that you get this email.

Attached is my History of Broadcasting PowerPoint, with a few relevant slides from Broadcasting and the Australian Military added to the base. Slide 23 deals with 2XT. However, I will add the info on 2XT and also on 2MK, which I note is also missing. However, I will leave it up to you to include the military stations in whatever format you think is best.

Dear Doug,

Yes, it certainly is THE Terry Dear! How are you going with Carty's book?

Now, I'll get back to compiling the new Major Network page.

Regards, Albert Isaacs (talk) 23:58, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Re RPH: I really, really think that they should be added, particularly as you’ve already listed two.

Regards, ALBERT.

Dear Doug,

Thanks for the explanation as to how I got an email from you. I'm pleased that privacy wasn't invaded for either you or me.

I clicked onto "email this user" but there isn't a facility for sending the attachment. I assume that you still want it - where do we go from here?

Regards, Albert Isaacs (talk) 23:30, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Dear Doug,

Re 9AJ Bosley Field: I've just done a Google search and found a few interesting sites which should give you some information - https://www.google.com.au/search?source=hp&ei=xPlPWtUry8DSBOntqqAK&q=Bosley+Field+World+War+2+broadcasting&oq=Bosley+Field+World+War+2+broadcasting&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1442.34132.0.34722.44.40.1.2.2.0.466.7905.2-30j0j2.32.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..10.25.5747.0..0j46j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i10k1j0i46k1j33i160k1j33i21k1.0.2qJKqjiRzNg. You would realise from the list I sent you that the 9AJ call sign was also used at Wewak, so I'll know you'll be careful not to mix the two up.

I mentioned Maj Jim Gordon to you as my source for military radio stations. I also put Bruce Carty in touch with Jim, and Bruce's book has a very comprehensive list of "9" military stations including opening and closing dates and, in some cases, wavelengths. Have you been able to get a copy of the book yet? If not, perhaps I could email Bruce on your behalf and see if he knows of copies for sale.

On another subject but still Wikipedia/broadcasting related: I'm about to start a new Wiki page for the Major Broadcasting Network.

Regards, Albert Isaacs (talk) 22:39, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Dear Doug,

Me again!

Interesting that you've made the WWII stations a separate section - probably the best way to go. Good'onya! I've added a few frequencies and opening/closing dates to stations already on your list and I've attributed Jim Gordon and Bruce Carty. At some stage (not now), I'll more stations to your list.

Regards Albert Isaacs (talk) 05:26, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for December 31
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Jan Hendrik Scheltema, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Gouda ([//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dablinks.py/Jan_Hendrik_Scheltema check to confirm] | [//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dab_solver.py/Jan_Hendrik_Scheltema?client=notify fix with Dab solver]).

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 11:04, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Jan Hendrik Scheltema
Dear Doug, Thanks for starting an entry on Jan Hendrik Scheltema. Great indeed! Good to see you are experienced on Wiki prodesses, as I am still trying to work it out. Your presence gives me confidence that where I screw up someone may amend it. I wrote an article on JHS that was published in a hard copy ethnic Melbourne based monthly ( I am in the A.C.T), where I expressed surprise that so little is known about him here, such as : 'not even an entry on Wikipedia' and that much information seems made up. And bingo!: There you are, starting one! On the issue of his alleged colour-blindness: Yes I have references to that late 20th century. But what is required is a 'contemporary' and authoritative source and I have not found any of those. It beats me how a career painter who produced work in colours that really reflected the Aussie landscape (that was different from where he hailed form) could have been colourblind. I have asked the National Gallery of Victoria (NGV) to obtain a scan of all pages of his letters he sent to his family from 1888-1899.(Via NLA I tried to get them under inter-library loan but that library in The Hague did not let them go.) They are likely to contain info and dimensions to the JHS story, which we do not as yet have in Australia. The letters were deposited in the late 1990's, by his grand-nephew, with an Introduction about his life and some kind of manuscript title. In Dutch of course. I have offered to NGV to translate them to English. It seems they're working on it. But if they do turn out to be about 300 pages (the quote is 300 Euro and they scan for 1E a page), then...it'll take a while to do. If so this is a long term project. I already have a big file on him. I did have telephone and e-mail contact with an OS relative of JHS, which was so far not too useful. Cheers Peter Reynders


 * Hi Peter!
 * Glad to be of some assistance. When I see a redlinked name on one of the Surname pages on my Watchlist, before deleting it I usually do a quick Internet search to see if it's someone having a game or something more interesting, in which case I usually see what I can do to make a "stub" article, which turns the redlink blue and means there's a process involved before it can be deleted.


 * I'm pleased that you're getting stuck into it.
 * To see what a decent article looks like, check out Tom Roberts. It's not rated as "Good Article" but it's better than anything I've ever done. You'll learn more from that (open with Edit to see the code involved) than any other way, at least when you're getting started.


 * And feel free to register yourself as a Wikipedia User: it costs nothing and has some advantages, particularly if you feel inclined to add articles or improve others; you get taken more seriously. Also you get notified if work you've done gets reverted, or someone edits a page you're interested in. Use your real name or a clever alias. It's up to you. Doug butler (talk) 06:08, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Adelaide Arcade
Hi Doug butler

I have two comments re the above article.

Firstly, I have noticed that you are relying only on newspaper reports. Have you looked for content in books as there may be some? A search of Trove found at least two books which are in the state library collection.

Secondly, the arcade has at least two heritage listings - the now-defunct Register of the National Estate (RNE) and the South Australian Heritage Register (SAHR). The RNE can be assessed by going to the  Australian Heritage Database and enter the words 'Adelaide Arcade'. The SAHR entry be viewed at Adelaide Arcade and Gays Arcade state heritage listing. You can added the above to the article and also add the following categories - 'Category:Places listed on the defunct Register of the National Estate' and 'Category:South Australian Heritage Register'

Regards Cowdy001 (talk) 05:04, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Fair comment. But I have a secondary aim: correcting Trove's newspaper OCR output, of which I have done a useful amount. I have been to the Library many times on one quest or another, but often come away disappointed, and the round trip always takes more than two hours. For a query I had for one article (Patricia Hackett) I had to sit supervised in a separate room at the Reference Library, and the document concerned had little to add (certainly not what I was hoping for), was idolatrous, shallow, and in many places wrong. At least newspapers generally get the date right! Doug butler (talk) 00:20, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of Associate in Music, University of Adelaide for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Associate in Music, University of Adelaide is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Associate in Music, University of Adelaide until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Vasemmistolainen (talk) 02:07, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

NIMBY dates back to the 1860s?
;-), Pdfpdf (talk) 03:27, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Earlier: " ... I'll have none of that apple-eating in my Eden" (JHWH c. 4004 BC). Oh, and congrats for saving AMUA. Doug butler (talk) 06:29, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Ways to improve Adelaide Chronicle and South Australian Literary Record
Hi, I'm Insertcleverphrasehere. Doug butler, thanks for creating Adelaide Chronicle and South Australian Literary Record!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. all the references are from a single source. please add more sources that support the information in the article.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse.

—  Insertcleverphrasehere (or here)  22:08, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

George Debney
Some time ago I came across http://www.burnside.sa.gov.au/webdata/resources/files/Burnside.pdf. It's now a, but I made some notes at User:Pdfpdf/George Debney. It's mainly about Undelcarra and/or the Simpson, Newland, Ward & Simpson families, but there's a bit about the Debneys. Other information in that sandbox is poorly organised, however, there might be some useful stuff there. Tell me when you've finalised the page and I'll delete the sandbox. One question: Where are/were "The Reedbeds"? Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 09:57, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi pdf! According to that fine article List of Adelaide obsolete suburb names The Reedbeds roughly encompassed Fulham, Lockleys and Underdale. Something I'd come across repeatedly but difficult to pin down. From W. H. Gray — A Pioneer Colonist of South Australia E. Hasenohr, Adelaide (1977) found it was part of lower reaches of Torrens subject to inundation where reeds abounded and were used for thatching. Reedbeds included one of his selections plus John White's Fulham, Moore Farm (A. H. Davis), and Frogmore (which Gray in 1858 purchased for ₤3930 - a huge sum). Sturt also had a property there. The voluntary militia included a "Reedbeds Mounted Cavalry" of some 50 men under Captain Haimes. Tapleys Hill Road ran straight through the Reedbeds (op. cit. p.94). Geoffrey Manning reports:
 * It was the name given to a vast area of flat, swampy land, in the Fulham-Henley Beach area. The River Torrens empties into it and these waters drain off by a few watercourses, most of which flow into the Saltwater Creek or Thomas River, and by that means into the Gulf of St Vincent, at Glenelg [sic]. sic indeed.
 * He then gives a lot of references, some of which no doubt I used to give those three suburbs. Since you brought it up, if I can work out how to plot an area on that excellent facility OSM Location map (see Henry J. Moseley for a sample use) I might have a go at a stub.
 * Surprised you knew nothing of Snobs vs. Nobs. A great story. A pity so many Snobs took their newfound wealth back to England to lord it up like Cashed Up Bogans.
 * I'd forgotten about Debney. That was a sideshow to Gay's Arcade; please add whatever you have. Doug butler (talk) 13:22, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Giles Sr ?
Is "William Giles sen" at Royal Agricultural and Horticultural Society of South Australia likely to have been William Giles (colonial manager)? Pdfpdf (talk) 13:09, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Would have to be I suppose. Colonial Managers I & II (McLaren and Stephens) were on the list. The presence in the Colony of his eldest son William Giles (c. 1814–1875) makes his disambiguation as "sen" logical. According to Barry Leadbeater's useful database only two William Giles arrived by sea: father and son, so it seems pretty plain he's our man.
 * He doesn't figure in Margaret Kerr's book (unfortunately not indexed) so he was never important in the history of the Society, and I never came across any mention of him growing apples or aspidistras so he probably wasn't on the list for his farmercological expertise. Doug butler (talk) 14:10, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Fred Finch
Hi, Doug butler. I noticed that you reinserted text into the Fred Finch article without providing a source for all the info. (Or perhaps I was unable to find it in the source you did provide?) So... I've rewritten the Lions Club entry with a better ref and also added a mention of Finch's Order of Australia honour with a ref from the government website. But I've again removed the other text per WP:BLP. If you wish to re-add it, please be certain to cite RS sourcing at the same time. Thanks. — Cactus Writer (talk) 01:04, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi. I responded to your reply at User talk:CactusWriter. (I prefer to keep discussion threads together because it's easier for me to follow.) Cheers. — Cactus Writer (talk) 18:20, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Elizabeth Whitby
Hi Doug. Despite the many references, you don't seem to have established that Elizabeth Whitby is in any way notable. And 80% or more of the article is not about her, but about the exploits of her non-notable sons.

I'm confused as to why you think the outcome here will be anything other than deletion of the article. Confused also, as you clearly understand how to produce good references, that you cannot see that the article you've written matches neither the style of wikipedia nor the notability requirement. Perhaps I'm missing something. Please explain. thx --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:09, 6 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Hi Tagishsimon. Thanks for your thoughtful and frank critique. I would agree with you totally if it were not for the fact that that this is part of the very earliest history of Adelaide and the Colony of South Australia. I tagged the article as stub on account of the paucity of material I could find on her and her school. The sons, while marginally notable as (J.J.) a casualty of the SS Gothenburg; (F.J.) longtime manager of one of J. H. Angas's most important stations; and (A. K.) for his association with D. C. F. Moodie, do crop up in histories. Edmund John Eyre is not notable at all except for the confusion of his name with that of the eminent explorer Edward John Eyre, which has been remarked on by A. T. Saunders.Doug butler (talk) 00:30, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Fox Hunting
I've edited your good faith changes to the fox hunting page. Foxes are not classified as vermin by DEFRA. Whatever your personal views are on this subject, please bear in mind that Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. Obscurasky (talk) 00:08, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Frank Dunne
Dear Doug, thank you for adding a page on my grandfather Frank. It's great to know there's some else who remembers him like we do. I'd love to know how you got so much of this information on him. Please feel free to contact me on Facebook as if love to talk with you about Frank. My names Phil Dunne (the guy with the fish). Cheers Phil 2908phild (talk) 06:10, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
 * An important cartoonist, and despite lots of work by others the article is still rated as a stub. You can help.Doug butler (talk) 08:12, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Northern Territory Dictionary of Biography
Hi Doug Butler, I find the following link when googling for the Hundred of Berinka - Northern Territory Dictionary of Biography. It may be of interest as it does have content about people from SA as well as people from the NT. Regards Cowdy001 (talk) 09:06, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Great stuff. I like the way contributors were recognised; foremost among them Peter Spillett, and quite right too. Nice to see Tiger Brennan got a guernsey, but would have liked a photo. Lovely man in the Colonel Blimp mould, and I don't mean that unkindly. Should be something on Tom Bell though. He was our local member in the old LEGCO, and elected despite his posters "Jingili - Bell, Jingili - Bell, Tom Bell all the way". Very sad end.
 * By the way, I would suggest that the above link should not be used in citations as the owner of the website is not the copyright holder. Regards Cowdy001 (talk) 01:37, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I presume you know the NT placenames search facility Doug butler (talk) 11:14, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I am aware of the NT Place Names Register as I have used it as a source in the past; its best point is that that a report is produced for each entry when searching and has a link that can be cited while its worst feature is the out-of-date graphical platforms that it relies on. Regards Cowdy001 (talk) 01:37, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Wish
Hello. Help add early life Maureen Wroblewitz. Thanks you. 125.214.49.215 (talk) 08:50, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Sorry, outside my comfort zone. Doug butler (talk) 08:53, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Reedbeds
Was "Reedbeds" actually the main source of the Patawalonga? It is really unclear. Do you have a source? What does seem clear is that the Torrens was the main source for reedbeds because its historical outlet - Port River - became blocked. But did those swamps eventually drain out via the Pat? Keswick, Brownhill and Sturt creeks already drain into the Pat (so pretty much all the water running off this side of the Adelaide Hill not included in the Torrens watershed) explaining why it's so wide at the end. At least one of my ancestors was apparently born in "Reedbeds" so I'd really love to learn more. Donama (talk) 03:37, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi Donama! I knew the Sturt became the Pat of course, but not Brownhill Creek, and Keswick Creek is entirely new to me. Many times I've come across reference to the Reedbeds, (which rarely has the definite article capitalised, but is usually so prefixed), and its extent has always troubled me. It certainly encompassed much or all of Fulham, Lockleys, Underdale and West Beach, but as you say, those are all in the Torrens floodplain. I'm currently working on W. H. Gray, whose home was in the Reedbeds near the nowadays intersection of West Beach Road and Tapleys Hill Road, but whose land extended to the Patawalonga, which made me believe the two water courses fed a common marshland. Right or wrong, I'd be pleased to have a more definite answer, but a map in this article seems to bear me out. Doug butler (talk) 06:57, 23 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes, The Reedbeds did drain out south via the Patawalonga Creek, as well as north to the Port River - see Holmes & Iversen's chapter "Hydrology of the Cowandilla Plains, Adelaide, before 1836" (ref 1 in the Patawalonga River article). W. H. Gray's home "Frogmore" was just to the south east of the intersection of Tapleys Hill Road and Henley Beach Road (not West Beach Road) - the site is now part of a retirement home complex. There is still a remnant section of the Patawalonga Creek on Adelaide Airport land south of West Beach Road. This site was formerly inaccessible to the general public, but a couple of weeks ago I had the honour of cutting the ribbon on the access point to a new public walking track in the Patawalonga Creek Conservation Reserve. I have a COI, as I'm the chair of the Friends of Patawalonga Creek which I started 20 years ago, but you can find more material in the environmental section of Adelaide Airport Ltd's Master Plan - there are a number of editions, as it is updated every 5 years. Bahudhara (talk) 21:04, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Interesting. That conflicts with Hasenohr: "He purchased Joseph Johnson's farm, Frogmore, comprising an area of about 500 acres contiguous with the northern boundary of his existing estate. The principal dwelling-place on the new farm was a picturesque, roomy and comfortable red brick cottage with thatched roof, which he came to regard with real affection. The site of this cottage was near the north-west corner of the present-day intersection of Tapley's Hill and West Beach Roads. A much larger but less pleasing Victorian villa finally replaced it, and was in its turn demolished in 1960, when the area was developed for housing." [E. Hasenohr; W. H. Gray - A Pioneer Colonist of South Australia p.57]. Johnson's property was Section 223 (op. cit. p. 32), which straddles West Beach Road (op. cit. p. 230) though its eastern boundary is a little west of Tapley's Hill Road. According to this map section 194 (south west corner of Henley Beach Road and Tapley's Hill Road, and designated Fulham) was not part of Gray's empire, but almost certainly owned by John White (op. cit. pp. 58, 59). This is internally consistent. The only counter I have is the SLSA picture curiously titled "Frog Moor" which partly fits the description, is surely not a "larger Victorian villa" and is placed (by the photographer? the Library?) in Fulham. Hasenohr includes a painted copy of the photograph (by one T. R. Pitt and probably commissioned by the author) in his book (op. cit. p. 59), so he presumably believed it authentic. Doug butler (talk) 23:07, 23 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Actually, when I wrote the above, I had the feeling I could be wrong, but I didn't have the time to check it fully. I do have a copy of Hasenohr's book somewhere, so I'll have to dig it out. I did check Google Earth Street View, and for the Henley Beach location I mentioned (immediately west of the shopping centre on the intersection) there is a plaque visible by the entrance to the retirement village. I think that I may have a photo of it that I would have taken at least 10 years ago, but I haven't catalogued my pre-digital photo collection (possibly 15,000 photos) so it may be simpler to just revisit the site, when I have time. Bahudhara (talk) 19:48, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * That's dedication! I've sent a message to SLSA re caption "Frog Moor" and the reference to "Fulham", which may be enlightening. Doug butler (talk) 20:55, 24 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Hi Doug, sorry for the delay in following this up. You're right, the map on page 230 of Hasenohr's book does show West Beach Road bisecting Section 223, so "Frogmore" would have been about 2 km south of Henley Beach Road (reflected in the comment on page 211). Yesterday I revisited the site I mentioned, near the SW corner of Henley Beach and Tapleys Hill Roads, and either my memory is faulty, or the plaque or sign I seem to remember being there has been removed or replaced. There is a historic house, "The Oaks", at the centre of the site, which is now the main office of the Fulham Retirement Village. Still no plaque on the building's exterior. I had to ring the doorbell and ask - fortunately they were able to assist - there is a framed certificate on the wall inside the front door with info provided by the West Torrens Historical Society, which I was able to photograph. In part it reads: "On his father's property in the late 1890s John White's third son, Charles, built 'The Oaks', a house of twelve rooms. Features of the mansion are the old oak staircase, the huge open fireplaces with marble surrounds (since replaced with carved wood) and the extremely high ornamental ceilings. Cornices and centrepieces of such intricate design are rapidly disappearing due to a lack of skilled tradesmen and the cost of the materials." Charles White was an uncle of Samuel Albert White. I also took a photo of the house, so when I have time I'll add an entry to the List of historic houses in South Australia. Cheers, Bahudhara (talk) 01:41, 19 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Great stuff, thanks Bahudhara! Doug butler (talk) 01:50, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Johann Gottlieb Otto Tepper
A year ago you created the article J. G. O. Tepper. Today I created the article Johann Gottlieb Otto Tepper because I thought Wikipedia had no article on this individual. When I realised my mistake I merged the content of the two articles and turned mine into a Redirect to yours.

Can I suggest that in future you use the person's full name as the title of any new article you create, making a redirect for any common abbreviation. That way we will not get similar duplications of effort in the future. If you access the list of your new article creations, you could check whether there are any other articles that could usefully have redirects from alternative names. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:35, 9 November 2018 (UTC)


 * As an afterthought, I see you currently have a draft article User:Doug butler/W. H. Gray and this will be much better named "William Henry Gray" when it goes live, using the full name bolded in the first sentence. Another reason why this is better, is because the reader does not have to guess the punctuation and spacing of the initials. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:46, 9 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks Cwmhiraeth for rectifying my failure to provide a redirect from Tepper's full name to the article, which as per WP:UCRN is titled J. G. O. Tepper, the usual way to which he is referred. The "problem" of idiosyncratic initials can be overstated: if someone looks for J G O Tepper or other style they will be met with the response "You may create the page 'J G O Tepper', but consider checking the search results below to see whether the topic is already covered." (followed by the required article)
 * Likewise W. H. Gray was almost invariably so called, as was the title of his biography. Doug butler (talk) 08:57, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, fine, but if you don't use the full name as your article title, please at least provide a redirect from the full name. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 13:52, 16 November 2018 (UTC)


 * all that aside - a good article - keep up the good work! JarrahTree 10:07, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

the season
trust your christmas season is all going well - I couldnt help but notice mount hoaxley in your draft... immediately found a trove item - thought it might be of interest - I never did get to the top of mount huxley on foot (only flew over it), so I always have huxley in memory.... have a good new year! JarrahTree 00:19, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Haha! I coincidentally found the same Truth article and was about to paste it in and it was already there, with spaces fore and aft, which I NEVER do. Thought I was going mad!! All the best for 2019 to you and yours. Doug butler (talk) 00:29, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
 * sorry about that, one does not need these sort of experiences at this time of year, real life has enough of that sort of thing - your contributions to things australian is very very much appreciated JarrahTree 00:32, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for ongoing addition of newspaper items - appreciated JarrahTree 22:06, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for being one of Wikipedia's top medical contributors!
Thanks again :-) --  Doc James  along with the rest of the team at Wiki Project Med Foundation 17:41, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Very inneresting
I had no idea that someone would upload victims names into the article and I was a bit wary about that when it happened. not kosher really. Schultzy was working at Mt Lyell when I was working there, we knew of each other - and I remember him as being one of the more interesting characters at Mt Lyell and in Queenstown at the time. By sheer coincidence I will be in uwa library today (for first time in about 2 years) and supposedly the hard copies are in the library - on my way today... JarrahTree 23:31, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 * oh and there was prevalent around the pubs in queeny assured rumour (hmmm a sure sign of alternative realities in the 1970s) that one of the victims was a woman dressed as a man amongst the victims, maybe this is where shculzy had been able to uncover something... JarrahTree 23:34, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I wonder at George Gard né J. O'Day? I thought I had confirmation of John Olive Lees then discovered every name identically spelled to WP list - the old echo chamber problem of the reporter becoming authority. Doug butler (talk) 23:49, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 * However http://www.mineaccidents.com.au/uploads/mt-lyell.pdf - where's the rest? surely someone has got it fully online somewhere.. JarrahTree 23:59, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 * my wife has found my copy of - give me days if not a week - lots on - but will slowly go through - I knew I had it somehwere JarrahTree 01:01, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * What a jewel! Doug butler (talk) 01:28, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * apologies if i get delayed in writing up from it... JarrahTree 03:34, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * bingo got the pdf - if you would like a copy see the email I sent you JarrahTree 05:43, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Nothing came through. Hope it's not my incompetence -- get very few pdf's these days Doug butler (talk) 11:17, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Notification "bingo" appeared on my WP notifications but could not find it on email application (horrible Mail for Win 10). Second email came through OK and txt version is OK and most interesting, especially as I know little or nothing about mining. eg. How were buckets pulled up winze? I can only presume pumps such as the one at 700 ft level was to blow air into the furthest reaches of workings to flush out CO CO2 H2S SO2 HCN CH3 or whatever. Must have been horribly dusty down there. Doug butler (talk) 12:12, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * will email my reply to that JarrahTree 13:26, 17 February 2019 (UTC) sorry didnt email - the pdf link is here - if you are in the slightest interested rae's work at https://eprints.utas.edu.au/14509/16/rae_whole_thesis.pdf - JarrahTree 13:54, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * by the time I had a very very short stint underground there water and air were essential due to the law - the 1910s in the very small spaces of the workings were sheer hell re the issue - see also   for light reading :(  JarrahTree 14:00, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * In the pubs in queenie in the mid 70s rm m was considered the saint of the town while stichts legacy was much more mixed - if you were in the right pub at the right time the material gets closer to the org labour and what is in charles fox's research... JarrahTree 13:25, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
 * {{Citation | author1=Fox, Charlie | title=Through engineers' eyes: courage, safety and the Mt Lyell disasters of 1912 | journal=Papers and Proceedings: Tasmanian Historical Research Association | publication-date=1997-06 | volume=44 | issue=2 | pages=132-147 | issn=0039-9809 }
 * {{Citation | author1=Fox, Charlie | title=Through engineers' eyes: courage, safety and the Mt Lyell disasters of 1912 | journal=Papers and Proceedings: Tasmanian Historical Research Association | publication-date=1997-06 | volume=44 | issue=2 | pages=132-147 | issn=0039-9809 }
 * {{Citation | author1=Fox, Charlie | title=Through engineers' eyes: courage, safety and the Mt Lyell disasters of 1912 | journal=Papers and Proceedings: Tasmanian Historical Research Association | publication-date=1997-06 | volume=44 | issue=2 | pages=132-147 | issn=0039-9809 }

If you cannot easily find - I can get all... JarrahTree 13:33, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but once I've got a reasonable handle on the Murray children I'll be moving on. Doug butler (talk) 20:14, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
 * no problems - I will probably pick it up then - thanks for what you have done - cheers JarrahTree 20:36, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Bonney Flat
Hi Doug. Do you have a strong objection to the Bonney Flat article about an unbounded locality being merged into Cromer, South Australia, the Bounded Locality that contains the homesteads? Since you created the first one, I thought I should check with you, not "just do it". I found your article after I had written the bit about the gold rush. A merged article wouldn't need the paragraph to distinguish it from Bonney Flat Creek. Thanks. --Scott Davis Talk 05:01, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi Scott! Thanks for asking, but no, of course not. I think it was a side-issue when I was doing something on a (an?) SE newspaper (I do tend to get sidetracked). But I digress . . . . Doug butler (talk) 05:34, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've done the merge and added a little more I found. It looks like a boring locality now, but probably had a lively past for someone in the mood to find out about it. --Scott Davis Talk 13:20, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

J A Lipman
Hi Doug,

I hope this message finds you very well, and thank you for your interest in my Great Grandfather! Before I make edits to this page (as I can see you have looked into Joe a lot, which is great to see!) I just wanted to let you know that there is a bit of a mix up going on here. Joe, the Film Producer (when I get around to finding online articles links of the pieces I have in his scrapbook, you'll see he was even more impressive than is reported in Aussie media!) IS 'Jonas Abraham Lipman', AND Jonas Alfred. He was never known as Alf to my knowledge. Jo was married to Gertrude 'Gertie' Solomon, and is the son of Judah Moss Lipman (who did have the pub/ brewery interests) and Sylvia Hyam. Joe's names were swapped around a little, but I suspect that's due to favouring the Anglicised Alfred. Joe's children are Judith Sylvia and Robert.

Many of the stories you have, with the exception of how you have linked the family, are correct, so it's quite tangled to unravel. I wanted to give you the opportunity to swap your work first, as I do really appreciate the time and care you have taken.

Similarly, the amendment you have made on the Solomon family page is incorrect, so I will revert that one. My family tree is so incredibly convoluted (I suspect you may be a relative?!) so I am not surprised at all that the tree is hard to follow. I'm afraid I don't know of this other Joe Alfred aside from mine, but I can assure you that J.A Lipman is Jonas Alfred/ Joe/ Jonas Abraham, husband of Gertie.

Thank you so much for your interest!

Very best,

Sjanks (talk) 12:58, 14 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi Sjanks. If you care to go back through the edit history of the Solomon family article you will find I once had the two J. A. Lipmans conflated. I will not revert your edits until I have a chain of evidence from BMD records and newspaper Family Notices. I also used a publication from the Melbourne-based Jewish Historical Society, which helped sort out the several Vaiben Solomons and Moss/Moses Solomons. But keep an open mind. I actually enjoy being proved wrong, but I know to my cost that family histories are not infallible. Doug butler (talk) 14:09, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing this to my attention; I had it wrong. Doug butler (talk) 17:35, 14 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi Doug,

Thank you for getting back to me so quickly. We are quite lucky with our particular corner of the Solomon/Lipman family tangles- due to Joe's work in film and the family's relative prosperity, we have many family images and original documents to help unravel who is who. Also, my grandmother, Judith, recently turned 100 and is still with us- which not only helps with first hand information, but also is how we have come to hold such a trove of artifacts (no subsequent generations with opportunities for clear outs!) I do semi-regularly search for some of the articles I have in hard copy, as more of the old papers are digitised- I've just found this one, which you may find interesting. https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-398965002/view?sectionId=nla.obj-413032573&partId=nla.obj-398986687#page/n35/mode/1up/search/lipman I am still looking for many articles online detailing his relationship with Charlie Chaplin; perhaps you will have more luck. I am missing the top of the paper on many clippings, which doesn't make it easier! Best, Sjanks (talk) 18:17, 14 April 2019 (UTC)


 * It's been a productive exercise. I've gone a bit further with the Coolgardie connection (trying to resolve a Jonas Alfred/Jonas Abraham confusion) and find Alfred had an earlier marriage and daughter who died very young, followed by her mother. Very common in those days. Now I'd better get a few hours' sleep! Doug butler (talk) 18:34, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Isaac and Isabella Solomon
Hi Doug,

Thought it might be easier to keep the threads separate- I'm not personally as sure of this one, but another mystery for you: I have always been told that Isabella was, unfortunately in my opinion, the half-niece (a daughter of Moss from memory) of Isaac. I was quietly delighted that Isabella Spyer, as she's listed may have been a non-relative, but adding to the story of who Isabella was- 'Isabella Spyer' and Isabella Solomon share birth and death dates (17 September 1820 – 1 December 1863). Perhaps a name tweak to soften the scope of that intermarriage? One for a new day- it must be late in Aus! Best, Sjanks (talk) 18:53, 14 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi Sjanks


 * Couldn't find where I got Isabella Spyer from on 12 October 2012. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Solomon_family&oldid=507130374 I can't have made it up, but kept no reference; possibly from genealogy site now vanished. There was a pair of sisters (?) a generation later, living at 40 Laura street Caulfield Victoria Isabella Spyer (c. 1847 – 27 August 1927) and Grace Spyer (c. 1851 – 13 April 1936).
 * Back then I did not know of this site https://www.genealogysa.org.au/index.php?option=com_search&Itemid=32 very useful for South Australian births marriages and deaths though bedeviled with speling erors. At the price of a joining fee you can have day and month, though just the year is a huge help. The following were born in SA:
 * Saul Solomon:1848 to Isaac and Isabella nee Solomon
 * Elizabeth Solomon: 1851 ditto
 * Esther Solomon: 1852 ditto
 * Emanuel Solomon: 1855 ditto
 * Julia Solomon: 1858 ditto
 * Kate Solomon: 1862 ditto
 * As I look back, if this is the same Isabella Solomon, she's a niece not a cousin, which would be verboten. Need to check further. Doug butler (talk) 02:51, 15 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Look what I just found: Isabella Solomon aka SPYER https://www.geni.com/people/Isabella-Solomon/6000000030039913503 Doug butler (talk) 03:01, 15 April 2019 (UTC)


 * This one says married in 1842 https://www.genealogieonline.nl/clarke-family-tree/I2557.php Doug butler (talk) 03:06, 15 April 2019 (UTC)