User talk:Doug butler/archive 2

February 2008
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User talk:Doug butler/archive1

User talk archives

 * BTW how does one create a User talk archive? Doug butler (talk) 21:51, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * There are lots of ways it can be done, some of them automatic, but I've had no success with the automatic ones, (and anyway, being the control freak that I am, I actually prefer to have control over what's happening.)
 * So I do it manually. And there are several ways you can do that, too.
 * Probably/possibly the easiest/best way to do it, (certainly a better way to do it than what I do, but I only discovered this method in the last year - had I discovered it earlier, I would probably use it), is the two step process:
 * 1) Use "move page" to rename your talk page (e.g. move "User talk:Doug butler" to "User talk:Doug butler/Archive 1")
 * 2) "User talk:Doug butler" will then become a redirect to "User talk:Doug butler/Archive 1". Edit "User talk:Doug butler" - remove the redirect and replace it with the stuff (copied from "User talk:Doug butler/Archive 1") that you like having on the top of your talk page.
 * Then, next time you want to archive, move "User talk:Doug butler" to "User talk:Doug butler/Archive 2"
 * Etc.
 * Hope that helps. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:38, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you. That seems to have worked. Doug butler (talk) 15:00, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Good. But did it do what you wanted? Pdfpdf (talk) 15:39, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what I wanted, except a smaller page. I like the first two posts - a welcome from FLOWERPOTMAN (lovely guy) and the firm but courteous trashing of my first edit - but the rest is (apart from a few nice tips like  ) just a nice souvenir. Doug butler (talk) 15:57, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

AEI
Oh, and I took the hint - there's now two pages: Adelaide Educational Institution and User:Doug butler/List of AEI prizewinners Doug butler (talk)


 * Well done! Both in terms of creation of the page & "publishing it", and in terms of "solving" the "problem" of the lists. Y'know, you've gotten rather good at this. I'm impressed. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 16:34, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I bet you say that to all the girls :) Doug butler (talk) 22:42, 20 June 2012 (UTC)


 * No - only the pretty ones ;-) Pdfpdf (talk) 11:15, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

South Australia biographies
I see from your user page that you have already done many South Australia biographies, and are busy doing more. I see William Gilbert (pastoralist) in the Category:All unreviewed new articles list right now. Before I do a review, I suggest to you that you should always add a talk page with appropriate templates just after you create a new article in mainspace. I believe I have added some talk pages to earlier articles you created. Also, if you can, you should try to add links from other articles, so the new article is not an orphan. I would like to nominate you for auto reviewer status, which would mean your new articles would no longer appear in the unreviewed list. If you can do the above for new articles, I will nominate you. Thank you for your good work so far. --DThomsen8 (talk) 12:46, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks Dthomsen8, but I've never set up a talk page, wouldn't know how, and probably best off leaving it to those who do. Is this a copout? Doug butler (talk) 08:42, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * And on the subject of orphans, how can I get a list of what articles link to a given article? The kluge I've used has been to search for a corrupted version of its title, but there must be a better way. Doug butler (talk) 22:43, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * On the left hand menu under Tools, the first entry is "What links here" and that provides the list of links from other articles, when looking at any particular article or page. --DThomsen8 (talk) 19:56, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Wow! So powerful! But I do feel like a goose for not exploring Toolbox. Thanks Dthomsen8 Doug butler (talk) 22:21, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

A page you started has been reviewed!
Thanks for creating Queen's_Theatre,_Adelaide, Doug butler!

Wikipedia editor Dthomsen8 just reviewed your page, and wrote this note for you:

"Good work, but are you sure you won't try to learn how to create talk pages? I am giving you plenty of examples."

To reply, leave a comment on Dthomsen8's talk page.

Learn more about page curation.

A page you started has been reviewed!
Thanks for creating Queen's_Theatre,_Adelaide, Doug butler!

Wikipedia editor Dthomsen8 just reviewed your page, and wrote this note for you:

"See comment below."

To reply, leave a comment on Dthomsen8's talk page.

Learn more about page curation.

Queen's Theatre, Adelaide
Good work on Queen's Theatre, Adelaide, which I have just reviewed. I added the appropriate templates on the talk page. I have given you plenty of examples of talk pages. I learned to do them by looking at other editor's examples. Are you sure you cannot learn to create them yourself? If you hesitate to rate your own articles, leave the class and importance blank.--DThomsen8 (talk) 23:42, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Royal Agricultural and Horticultural Society of South Australia
Would you consider doing an article on the Royal Agricultural and Horticultural Society of South Australia? I see the mention of it in your article on Alexander Borthwick Murray, which I just reviewed, and a bit of web searching tells me this organization was founded in 1839 and continues to this day. It may require some paper research, but I think it could be interesting. --DThomsen8 (talk) 00:00, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It definitely needs serious work. I vaguely remember being shocked at the paucity and superficiality of the information on R.A.&H.S. on WP. But what's new? - that's what got me hooked in the first place. And thank you for your interest in this old plodder. :) Doug butler (talk) 00:19, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You are an old plodder who does excellent work. I wish you would learn to do talk pages, but otherwise you create good articles done in a workmanlike fashion. As for the R.A.&H.S., I rather think that doing it right means consulting local sources, which you can do, and I can't. --DThomsen8 (talk) 00:29, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd like to learn get into WikiMedia too, but it ain't gonna happen as long as I feel useful doing what I know best (and correcting Trove as I go). Doug butler (talk) 08:14, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for mentioning Trove, a good resource for those far from Australia. Go on creating articles, and I will go on adding the talk page templates to them. I see from your user page that there may be a great many more articles that you did before I started reviewing yours, but I am going to leave all that to some other editor. I am considering Wikimania 2013 in Hong Kong, but I am far from sure about it. 15 hours on a plane is a lot. Wikimania 2014 might be in London, but maybe Sydney or even Indonesia.--DThomsen8 (talk) 16:35, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Have started on article.
 * Oh, but the article must have a lede! Must not start with a heading. WP:MOS is the guide. --DThomsen8 (talk) 14:00, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I was hoping no-one would notice - did not have the luxury of starting in userspace. :) A slow grind. Doug butler (talk) 14:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

(Adelaide) Solomon family
Could you please do something unrelated for me? - the (Adelaide) Solomon family is a bit of a tangled web, with lots of quite interesting members with similar or identical given names. To cut a long story short, assuming it's OK by you, the article Vaiben Solomon should be renamed Vaiben Louis Solomon (I've fixed all references that called him just Vaiben), the redirect Vaiben Louis Solomon should be deleted, and the index "Vaiben Solomon" cleared for the uncle. Thanks; now back to RAHS. Doug butler (talk) 07:45, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Let me think about how to do this. We need to be careful to maintain the article history. --DThomsen8 (talk) 13:55, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * After giving this more than adequate time for thinking, I would respond that you should request this assistance elsewhere, perhaps at Teahouse/Questions. I am cautious about messing up the article history. --DThomsen8 (talk) 00:57, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I have a similar dilemma with the article I'm working on concurrently: William B. Rounsevell is son of William Rounsevell. They share a lot of history, and notability should not be an issue with either, but there's more to be written about the son - an exact parallel. I'm now of the opinion that a reader would be best served with an article which encompasses both characters. Doug butler (talk) 13:58, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Doing one article on the father and son is entirely appropriate, sharing the references may work out well, and I see how you have done this with earlier articles with good effect. Have you tried the teahouse? --DThomsen8 (talk) 14:40, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing out this area of WP, of which I had no previous knowledge. I'm forever being amazed/intimidated by the depth and breadth of this organization. Doug butler (talk) 15:01, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

I've been computer-free
G'day. My desktop computer got ill about a month or so ago, and still is. I eventually worked out how to make a copy of the hard disk (using a Linux rescue disk! - it's 20 years since I've used Unix; interesting how it eventually comes back to you.) I must admit I have enjoyed being computerless! However, the tax man and Oct 31 approacheth! Thus, I've resurected an old laptop (pentium 4 / windows xp) and connected it to the internet. So far, so good. Next step is to catch up with 6 weeks of email! Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:31, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

William Rounsevell
William Rounsevell ran a stagecoach business in Australia, and so did some other settlers that you have written about. Any chance you could add to the stagecoach article a description of the Australian stagecoach experience? The western United States experience is documented, and familiar to anyone who has watched movie westerns or TV westerns. The Australian equivalent is pretty much unknown to Americans like myself, but I am curious about it. --DThomsen8 (talk) 03:52, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmm tricky. I felt embarrassed at using the word "stagecoach" with the John Wayne visions it conjures though the term accurately describes the logistics. I never came across "stagecoach" in contemporary sources. Doug butler (talk) 11:01, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I read "The Fatal Shore" when I was visiting Australia several years ago, but I have not read any other Australian history except a biography of Flinders. Perhaps I will borrow an Australia history at the Free Library of Philadelphia. What would you suggest? But what do contemporary sources call the business? Obviously horses and coaches or wagons were the transport before the railroads in Australia, just as they were elsewhere. Tell me more. --DThomsen8 (talk) 12:30, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The Rounsevells' business was generally described as a mail coach and livery stables. Cobb & Co. is far more famous and had extensive services throughout New South Wales and Victoria. As for general histories I'm not much of a judge; Geoffrey Blainey's Tyranny of Distance is regarded as a classic. I have a copy of which I read half a dozen pages before putting it away. Manning Clark is the other giant: his Short History of Australia is very popular and his multi-volume History of Australia is highly regarded but controversial in many of its conclusions (there's two sides on something here called the "History Wars" which revolves around early treatment of the aborigines and I don't remember which side he was on). I have never opened any of them. I am a bear of little brain and big casts confuse me. The first six pages of War and Peace was agony, relieved only by closing its covers. For ever. I much prefer "rattling good yarns" and enjoy biographies, particularly of people I find loathsome. Doug butler (talk) 15:01, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Why not change "stagecoach" to "mail coach and livery stable business" in the Rounsevell article? I am tempted to do it, but I will leave that decision to you. --DThomsen8 (talk) 15:33, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll review its use but "stagecoach" is a good term as it implies that horses were changed at stables en route. Doug butler (talk) 15:56, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to a "do" at his house in Hutt street tomorrow afternoon. Is there anything I should look out for? Pdfpdf (talk) 11:19, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * A book on Australian history that might interest DThomsen8: Australian Journey by Paul McGuire. Really well written, witty and opinionated. Don't let the date of publication (1942) deter you. My daughter-in-law picked up a good copy for $10; I couldn't put it down. Doug butler (talk) 07:17, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

International Emmy
Hi Doug, I have asked a question at Talk:List of International Emmy Award winners regarding a section you added to that article. Would appreciate your thoughts about this. John Vandenberg (chat) 09:47, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, John. I have no useful knowledge. Clearly UNICEF had an arrangement to have this award presented in conjunction with the Emmys but never found how it fitted into the ceremonies. Doug butler (talk) 11:39, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * No worries. I've also asked User:Average Earthman if xe know.  My interest is only in a slightly related problem over at Talk:Christopher Lawrence (broadcaster).  Many hours later and I've found I've bitten off too much.  I am sure a call for help to the Television wikiproject will do the trick. -- John Vandenberg (chat) 17:24, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Lady Bonython
Thanks for picking up my gaffe. Someone should do a story on Magill reformatory. Despite threats I never saw the place, not even the outside. I suppose it's now the centrepiece of a retirement village. Doug butler (talk) 13:23, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * There was no gaffe by you - the gaffe was mine in assuming that there was only one Lady Bonython - Jean.
 * A problem I have is that given that she is referred to by three slightly different names, what do I call the first Lady Bonython? For the moment I've gone for Lady Mary Bonython, which is almost certainly wrong!!
 * Could you have another look at Lady Bonython and if you think it needs improving, have a go at it.
 * (However, if you're not familiar with WP:MOSDAB, perhaps just give me your opinion ...) Pdfpdf (talk) 13:47, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * My gaffe stemmed from following my link to Lady Bonython, and finding it anachronistic did a little rummaging and did the Langdon and Lavington edits but forgot to amend the Lady Bonython that started it.
 * Her wedding announcement in the SA Register used the Germanic spelling; death notice was the Gallic. Both would have been as authorised by the family. Doug butler (talk) 19:42, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * True, but my implied question was: "Is Lady Mary Bonython good enough, or not?" (And if not, what is "good enough"?) Pdfpdf (talk) 11:04, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Outside my comfort range. I thought the mid-article redirect (beltnote?) was useful and adequate. But both could use a more extensive treatment. Doug butler (talk) 13:00, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Magill reformatory

 * So you were threatened with Magill reformatory too. (They say Adelaide's a small town ... )
 * I never saw the place either, or if I did, it was not until the 1990s when my sister lived in Rostrevor, at which time there was a collection of ugly cream brick buildings on Stradbroke Road. There was a lot of press about that site sometime in the last decade; I expect that site has been sold off and is now covered in houses! Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:38, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, it was probably Glen Stuart Rd. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:48, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * OTOH, maybe it's still there? Magill Reformatory School Pdfpdf (talk) 13:53, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * He was arrested and sentenced to six months in the State Childrens' Department's Magill Reformatory (now part of the University of South Australia’s Magill Campus).
 * (We could now indulge in lame comparisons of UniSA with a retirement village ...) Pdfpdf (talk) 13:58, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

R.A.& H.S.
Always happy to have additional input but the Timeline section is very much a work in progress. When I started on this page I thought I'd be relying heavily on Royal Show (C. and M. Kerr) but had trouble understanding various aspects so started trawling through SAR. If I knew then how many sideroads I'd blunder down I'd have done it in userspace. (thinks) I'll do it now. Visitors welcome. Doug butler (talk) 20:07, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "SAR" - The SA Register? (You couldn't possibly mean South Australian Railways!!)
 * What useful-to-you things could/would visitors do? Pdfpdf (talk) 11:11, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

John Creswell (sportsman)
I have reviewed John Creswell (sportsman), and added talk page templates. I also added but I did not add the relevant information. I would suggest that you always include and complete this template on biographies.

I would suggest that you consider creating an article on the Adelaide Chamber of Commerce, as it seems that several of the men you have created articles about were active in it.
 * Fascinating triumvirate here: F. S. C. Driffield, John Creswell (sportsman), J. A. Riley. All three stalwarts of R.A.& H.S., Adelaide Chamber of Commerce and South Australian Cricket Association. I'm dying to find out more. Doug butler (talk) 18:25, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I will find out more when you do the research! You did just fine with the R.A.& H.S. after I suggested it, so I know more will be added soon. --DThomsen8 (talk) 19:00, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Keep up the good work, but consider doing a bit more on each article, so I can do a bit less on each article on South Australia settlers. --DThomsen8 (talk) 14:33, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Point taken. I do feel a little guilty about how you've been cleaning up after me. But grateful - thank you. Doug butler (talk) 18:25, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Can you do the hatnotes? The disambiguation page? --DThomsen8 (talk) 19:00, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Never created a disambiguation page, but think I've been pretty diligent in using them, and hatnotes too, because I've seen how useful they are. Doug butler (talk) 19:08, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The first article I created was March (surname) because it was easy compared to do, than say, creating a biography from scratch. With only three men, this would be really easy. Hatnote templates can be tricky, so do them in the sandbox and get them right, then copy and paste in the three articles. Get all three done, copy all three each time, and delete the one you are pasting in. I am sure you can do it. No hurry. I am off to my Thanksgiving (United States) dinner, eating out, but walking distance from home. --DThomsen8 (talk) 19:21, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmm ... would have thought mention of the other guys in each page more appropriate than a hatnote, especially as there was no direct succession from Driffield to Creswell. From here, Thanksgiving looks like an excellent family occasion. Christmas has been ruined by gift-giving (or rather the marketing and guilt trips that go with gift-giving). Or have the marketers horned in on Thanksgiving too? Doug butler (talk) 20:12, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

I was not quite clear above. The three men are John Creswell, John Creswell (sportsman), and John Creswell (MP), and all three go on the disambiguation page, and two of the three in hatnotes. John Creswell of Maryland and John Cresswell of England already have hatnotes for each other, and you could steal those two hatnotes and put them on John Creswell of South Australia.

Thanksgiving is much less commercialized than other holidays, and many stores and restaurants are closed, but Black Friday (shopping) more than makes up for that. My wife and I were in Australia a few years ago, and we happened to arrive in Sydney the day before Australia Day. Great fun, antique and classic cars all over the parks, boat races, fireworks, and then we went to Melbourne, which in some ways I liked better, and I suspect that I would like Adelaide, too. --DThomsen8 (talk) 21:23, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * There is a Creswell page, but John Creswell does not appear at all, let alone three times. For now, I think we can skip a John Creswell (disambiguation) page, and just add the three to the Creswell page. --DThomsen8 (talk) 21:30, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Ooops, that applies to the Cresswell page, but the 3 John Creswells do appear on the Creswell page. Limit your effort to hatnotes. --DThomsen8 (talk) 21:33, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

T. J. Richards
In the article, "...drowned in a dam while intoxicated..." is difficult for an American to understand. A "dam" is a big solid structure, with water behind it, to an American, not the water that someone could drown in. A translation from the Australian, please, so we all understand. --DThomsen8 (talk) 13:15, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you suggest a term which would make more sense in the US? Here we use "dam wall" for the structure, which may be of stone and earth, and "dam" to the whole facility, which would maybe cover an acre and a depth of ten feet. I suspect the man knew what he was doing but the inquest spared his family by releasing the finding of accidental death. Doug butler (talk) 22:26, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Good work with the footnote. --DThomsen8 (talk) 01:21, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And thanks for another lesson on the language that divides us. My Websters gives the UK/Oz meaning for dam as #2, but it's the great Third International which might explain things.
 * Do you use the default WP text editor and Internet Explorer? I'm forever having to readjust to its vagaries. Once it gave all the wiki markup expressions and printerly stuff like ndash nbsp and the usual accented letters. That's all gone now which is why I use &ndash and write "nee" (which is usual in newspapers here anyway). Now I can't reliably use the key and it doesn't happen with other text editors. Doug butler (talk) 04:58, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi
Hi! I am recovering from stroke, but still back on wikipedia and did want article for preview. Hope to log on later today.

Dthomsen8. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.145.42.162 (talk) 17:07, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Really bad news Dthomsen8. Best of luck for the rehabilitation. Doug butler (talk) 21:05, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * i am doing it!--DThomsen8 (talk) 00:51, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Do more
Do more, I must do less. External links is after References. Doug, you are good, but can be better.--DThomsen8 (talk) 00:23, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Well spotted, thanks. How's the recovery going? Doug butler (talk) 00:36, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * More ext. lists to do.Italic text

Two informal Adelaide Meetups - 27 Jan 2013
FYI. (RSVP appreciated.) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:27, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

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Giles kids
There are some inconsistencies in the list of children of William Giles (colonial manager). And also in the references. Various refs say he had 9 children with Sarah Roper - 6 boys & 3 girls; It would seem 10th child Sarah died before they got on the Hartley, and doesn't seem to get counted in the stats.

Note, however that Saumuel was aged 8 on the Hartley, so obviously he survived beyond 1831.source


 * List of passengers on the Hartley, augumented with other data
 * Thanks for that. I hadn't yet started on ships' records. Doug butler (talk) 08:08, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Clem
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/giles-clement-6380 - Giles was educated at John Lorenzo Young's Adelaide Educational Institution. Pdfpdf (talk) 09:35, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The more you dig the more you find. I'd almost forgotten the old alma mater! Doug butler (talk) 12:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * ADB Cleland link http://adb.anu.edu.au//biogs/cleland-george-fullerton-3232.htm dodgy and I can't figure why when http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/cleland-george-fullerton-3232 works! Doug butler (talk) 13:28, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it's the double slash. (.au//bio) And/or the fact that I was using the old template, but not giving the template the old page id ...
 * Anyhow, you seem to have resolved it. (And I'll stop using the old template!) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 02:47, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Bill Jr
Who was Alan McFarlane, and why was their son Alan Mac Farlane Giles? Pdfpdf (talk) 10:16, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Alan McFarlane was a banker and parliamentarian. All four death notices had MacFarlane Giles and two articles had McFarlane Giles. As the articles were independent of each other two trumps four and have changed it. Well spotted and thanks again. Doug butler (talk) 12:14, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Worse, it turns out the parliamentarian was Allan McFarlane. The porridge thickens. Doug butler (talk) 14:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Category:Jubilee 150 Walkway & J150W article
The detail you're putting into the Category page is too much for a Category page. That level of detail would go into the article. And, you'll find that it already is in the article. Also, there are quite a few "out of order" - the VC & GC recipients, the vignerons, Mary Lee, Torrens & Traeger. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 14:40, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Good info! I was going to contact you anyway, regarding VC recipient Phillip Davey, who has been spelled "Philip Davey" in a number of places, including main article. I've fixed the straightforward links, but not at all sure of appropriateness of interfering with others, which may be best handled with the redirect. Doug butler (talk) 14:47, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Whether it's the best way to handle it or not, the Philip Davey redirect will most certainly "handle it"! I don't foresee any problems arising from what you've done - I would have done it pretty much the same way as you did. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 15:27, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Incidently, do you know about "What links here"?
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Phillip_Davey or Special:WhatLinksHere/Phillip Davey
 * Special:WhatLinksHere/Philip Davey
 * Pdfpdf (talk) 15:27, 5 February 2013 (UTC)