User talk:Douglas M Chapman

Hello, Douglas M Chapman, and welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages you might find helpful: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, please see our help pages, and if you can't find what you are looking for there, please feel free to ask me on my talk page or place  on this page and someone will drop by to help. --Walk Like an Egyptian (talk) 05:07, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Introduction
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * How to write a great article
 * Simplified Manual of Style
 * Your first article
 * Discover what's going on in the Wikimedia community
 * And feel free to make test edits in the sandbox.

November 2018
Hello, I'm Plandu. I wanted to let you know that I reverted one of your recent contributions —specifically this edit to Haun's Mill massacre— because it did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Help Desk. Thanks. Plandu (talk) 16:50, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did with this edit to Haun's Mill massacre. Your edits appear to be vandalism and have been reverted or removed. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Repeated vandalism can result in the loss of editing privileges. Thank you. Plandu (talk) 16:57, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

To Plandu: I do not have a wish to harm Wikipedia. I am not a vandal. But, I am new to this editing of this media. It looks like some editing is needed here. Please understand, David Evens was my great grandfather and one of the ones wounded at Haun's Mill. He is listed among the injured. I doubt if any Mormons believe this militia did not receive Governor Bogg's written extermination order before striking this hamlet. Is there a place in Wikipedia for expressing the obvious conclusion of what may have sent this militia into Haun's Mill with such deadly wanton violence?Douglas M Chapman (talk) 18:22, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

To Plandu: I assume it was you that put my edit back into this item. Thank you. I do wish to understand all of he rules. I will be looking for a place where they are listed.
 * Doug, What I would advise to do is cite a history book about the massacre that said the militia likely knew about Bogg's order. I'm not that active on the Haun's mill article, but I used to be pretty much a referee on the article for Mountain Meadows Massacre. In that case, there were warring factions that tried to make the article state that the orders came down from the top (Brigham Young) or conversly other editors would try to make it clear that no senior Mormon leadership even knew about it until after the fact. Of course, we'll probably never know the truth of that. So to keep the peace what had to do is state "Juanita Brooks did not believe Brigham Young knew of the Massacre and would have stopped it if he could, but Bagley in his book accused Brigham Young of having knowledge and approving the massacre". By stating it that way, nobody can refute the statement is true, even though it doesn't truly answer the question of if BY knew. I hope this helps. Having to play referee in that article probably makes me a little quick to strike content in sensitive articles, and for that I apologize. But I assure you, like you, my intentions are good.Dave (talk) 00:32, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Doug, as a PS to my comment. Currently the article states that "most historians have concluded the military did not know" but this is cited to ONE historian's opinion. So that's not right either. If you don't mind I'll put in a compromise wording for now. If you can find a book or similar that says they knew. Please put that in.Dave (talk) 00:36, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Doug, one final comment. I read the source used for that claim and don't feel the Wikipedia fairly summarized the source. Can you read the change I just made to the article and opine if that is a fairer summary based on your knowledge and experience in this area? Dave (talk) 00:57, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

To Plandu: It seems to me you want to maintain the fiction that this state militia did not receive the written order of Governor Boggs demanding the Mormons be exterminated or driven from the state. But, of course your reference to [13] on page 156 (last paragraph) it claims Col. Ashley took a copy of the Governor's "Extermination Order" to Capt. Nehemiah Comstock who was in charge of this state militia. They did not have Xerox machines at the time, but they did have secretaries who could quickly replicate a short written order for delivery to the governor’s militia units. So, when this commander received his new written order from the governor to exterminate the Mormons, apparently it matched his own desire to do so, despite his peace treaty with the Mormons made the previous day. We know the result. It clearly was not simply a change in this commander’s mind to keep peace, which he had agreed to do, but a change in his orders from Governor Boggs that changed his objective. Perhaps this commander thought the knowledge of his peace treaty would never come to light later, but die with the Mormons. This commander clearly acted upon that written order from the governor. Why do you wish to continue a fiction that no orders from the governor were received by him? Why is it now OK to rely upon the conjecture by some recent historian those two days were “not enough time” to deliver this order? Is Wikipedia supposed to be a collection of statements of conjecture made by recent historians? The statement in this section of "most historians have now concluded that the militia unit had neither the time nor the opportunity to have received news of the order. [14]" does not square with what we know about how things were done in those days. Two days (48 hours) is plenty of time to get the governor's order to the militia. It was not that far distant. Should at least this section refer to historical records show the two day earlier written order by Governor Boggs was claimed to have been delivered to the militia commander? That, after all, appears to have put the state militia into action. I am a Mormon, and David Evens, one of the listed wounded, was my great grandfather. All my life I have been told the governor’s order was the reason the militia sprang into action that day. After this day, militia members bragged about how they murdered Mormons, including a ten year-old boy and another young boy hiding in the blacksmith shop and trembling in fear. Another youngster was apparently shot there but survived. Their later statements indicated to the effect they were killed because they would just grow up to be a Mormon gave clearly the reason for the carnage that day.Douglas M Chapman (talk) 22:26, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Douglas, though you directed your comments at Plandu, I suspect they were directed at me. Thanks for the reference to citation 13. I agree, this strongly implies the people did know, and I just revised that paragraph to include the information you provided. I assure you there is no conspiracy to keep any topic on or off of an article. Imperfect humans are trying to do the best with what we have. As you get more comfortable with how Wikipedia works, hopefully you will stick around and contribute more to the articles. Unfortunately this article is a mess, and not a good article to use to learn how Wikipedia works. The citations are all scrambled up. I tried to untangle them a bit, but I have to run. I might try to untangle them some more next week. Dave (talk) 23:38, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Dave: I saw your changes. Yes I see now I should have replied to “Dave.” I am not sure your changes are the most accurate view about whether or not the militia leader received the written Boggs' extermination order. I did find the phrase "the knowledge their had already" with the possessive “their” so I changed this one word so the phrase reads "the knowledge there had already." Is this OK and is it how the process works? Is each change always checked by others? I still wonder why this militia leader would violate his truce and attack so viciously after one day under his truce if he did not receive Governor Boggs' order? Also Governor Boggs apparently was recorded later as saying that he preferred the extermination method to rid Missouri of Mormons. The governor didn’t reveal that he didn't send the order, nor did he say the militia acted without receiving his order. He instead accepted what happened as his preference. The order could have been sent by a fast horseman, but not recorded anywhere. Could that view also be reported in this record? Can we simply report that a clear record of the delivery of the governor's order can't be located today, but we assume it did occur? Also, isn’t confiscating weapons while making a truce, and then attacking without warning considered treachery? Can this be reported?Douglas M Chapman (talk) 03:27, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Doug, Wikipedia has accumulated an overwhelming number of policies, guidelines and style guides through the years. In short the general philosophy is this. Put your self in the shoes of someone who thinks exactly the opposite of you (i.e. if editing a Mormon topic and you are a Mormon, think about someone who is anti-Mormon) if that anti-you would object to what you just wrote, it should be attributed to a source, so that the anti-you can confirm it's not just your crazy rants, but supported by others who have investigated the subject. And that's the briefest summary of the policies at WP:OR,WP:V and WP:RS I can give. I'm still not entirely happy with the paragraph about did the attackers know about the extermination order. It took me 3 sentences to put context around what was a single sentence in the book. I'd like to abbreviate. I'll try once more, but I have to leave soon. So by all means if you have any better ideas go right ahead, otherwise I'll play with it when I get back. Dave (talk) 18:38, 4 November 2018 (UTC)