User talk:Dpbsmith/archive03

See also:
 * User talk:Dpbsmith/archive01
 * User talk:Dpbsmith/archive02

Crimson Tide (Glencoe High School)
Hey, your help is greatly appreciated. After making the suggested changes, I believe the Glencoe High School article is better for it. The Crimson Tide page probably was unnecessary, and its information has been rightfully listed under Glencoe High School. Rockingharder 14:16, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've merged the text from Mr. Tide Guy, Captain Crimson, and Crimson Tide (Glencoe High School) into the Glencoe High School article. Feel free to pursue the votes for deletion; I'm all for them now that the GHS page now includes that information. Rockingharder (talk) 01:30, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Corrections to Opposition to Castro
Hi there I have made changes to the Opposition to Castro will you reconsider your vote. If you do not think that satisfy the NPOV policy please help me do so. It is hard for me to not have a POV on the matter. I love democracy and the Internet and this great country we live in. Thanks and regards! SilentVoice 23:14, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Could you have another look at Opposition to Castro? I'm not sure what it was like when you looked at it (I gather is started out very POV), but at this point it looks to me like the nucleus of a good article. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:17, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

VfD of a user subpage
I don't know if you've noticed, but your subpage User:Dpbsmith/Billion got listed on VfD. After a sound tongue-lashing and explanation of user subpages, the submitter withdrew. -- Cyrius|&#9998; 23:53, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Analogue disc record
I notice that you've retained both of your votes for the runoff&mdash;an act which effectively cancels itself out, regardless of whether votes count for 1 or 0.5. Are you sure you can't be persuaded to hop off the fence? Austin Hair 16:02, Aug 22, 2004 (UTC)

The Children's Own School
I voted keep because of the good faith of the user. I also added a semi-bogus sentence to try to pump it up just a little bit and perhaps indicate a direction it could go. I must say that you have really gone the extra mile in helping out Allyn, and I applaud you for it. Geogre 14:36, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hubert Dreyfus
Thanks for your comments and vote re Votes for deletion/Hubert Dreyfus. After reading everyone's remarks, it's clear that he's notable. I added him to VfD because the article didn't even come close to establishing notability, and a skim of his Berkeley website didn't reveal much either. I'm perhaps biased because of my skepticism towards most areas of cognitive science (save AI), which may have contributed to my trigger-happy vote to delete. My apologies. Best wishes, Diberri | Talk 18:24, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

I replied on my page :-) Fantasy &#23481; 12:46, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for your message on my talk page. I will answer you soon. Michael Chuquet 06:37, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Statue of Liberty
Hi there! I'm not sure if you are the one wrote the article about the Statue of Liberty, but I'll ask anyway. I heard from a few people that the statue had been made out of copper, imported from Siberia. Is it really so? Do you know anything about it? The article never mentions where the copper came from (I guess it's not that important, after all). Thank you! KNewman 01:41, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

rights
Of course. Honestly, I can't come up with something that's accurate, descriptive, and that both sides would agree with, so if you have any ideas, please let me know (this would be useful in real life as well as here). Best wishes, Meelar (talk) 02:10, 2004 Sep 9 (UTC)

Mike Storm is up for sysop
I thought you might be interested to know that User:Mike Storm is nominated for sysop and the vote is actually reasonably close. I thought you might have some opinion on him after I looked at the baffling exchange on Carpetbaggers talk. He actually cited it as good dispute resolution (to most users he's known for his stubborness on substubs, and someone challenged him to provide examples of good wikiquette). Very interested to hear your opinion on Mike.

Regards, CHL 12:54, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Incidentally, I think the Carpetbaggers article is excellent. It was always good, but the expansions you made to it in the face of mind-boggling criticism add facinating detail. CHL 13:16, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I think your position to avoid a conflic of interests is admirable. Also, I apologize for claiming that the vote was close. For some reason, possibly because the votes were numbered, I assumed they were by majority instead of by VfD-style consensus. I'd never seen that page before, but I found that candidate's edit history horrifying. Anyone could delete articles, but all things being equal I'd rather have those with an interest writing them do it. CHL 23:18, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Tobias Smollett
Hi, dpbsmith, just to say that your Smollett quote on Votes for deletion/Jewelry tuning made my day. :-D I must read that book. Bishonen 16:15, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Tran Van Ba
well, if it is correct I agree, I will fix it, if you see something please correct it please support this history. Thank you,Tran Van Ba

Naming conventions
I'd suggest going with his most commonly used name, and then making all the others redirects to that name. Naming conventions does not seem to say what to do in such circumstances, but this seems to be the most reasonable course of action. Good job writing the article, by the way. Mike &infin; Storm 02:25, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Not all that glitters is gold"
From Votes for deletion/Fetter: "I am sick of the solace of sorrow/And fear what the prophets foretold;/I am tired of the tears of tomorrow/And wish that things were as of old;/I have felt of the force of the fetters/I have drunk of the draught that embitters/And all is not golden that glitters/And not all that glitters is gold."

I looked high and low, near and far, left and right, up and down. I searched the valleys, the mountains, and the dark ocean depths. I searched USENET and the online poetry databases. My Google queries were cunning, devious. And yet all I could come up with (besides the obvious have drunk of the draught that embitters Google) was this post of yours (?!) from 2002.

Web searches for "Aloysius Charles Swinburne" turn up empty except for the links above, so I thought at first that it might be an alternate spelling of Algernon Charles Swinburne. The styles seemed sorta the same. But that route is coming up empty; I can't find a poem containing the words above written by one Algernon Charles Swinburne.

My questions to you are these.
 * 1) Where did you get that quote from,
 * 2) Who wrote it,
 * 3) What was the original work called, and
 * 4) Has the copyright expired on that work so I may incorporate it into Wikiquote and Wikisource?

Perplexed, but not yet defeated, --Ardonik.talk 05:16, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
 * It sure sounds like Swinburne -- "From the depths of the dreamy decline of the dawn...etc" Hayford Peirce 05:37, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * "The name, I need the name of the work," Ardonik hissed unexpectedly. "The name!"  --Ardonik.talk 05:47, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Uhhhhh, Swinburne? Maybe. That section sounds like him, but, um, the first iteration of the phrase is, I think, Thomas Gray's "Lines Written on the Death of a Favorite Cat." The cat drown trying to eat his goldfish, and it learned "all that glisters is not gold." As S. Johnson said, "It is a trifle, and it is not a happy trifle" of a poem. At least that's the first of that phrase, but y'all were looking for a whole swath of poetry. Geogre 04:14, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

0/0

 * One of the barriers to learning is that once one learns the resolution to a seemingly paradoxical issue, it is difficult to regain the naive mindset and therefore difficult to explain the resolution to someone with that mindset.

This seems to presuppose that there's a paradoxical issue that got resolved. I didn't know there was one. I initiated the indeterminate form article, and the idea that someone might have thought I was attempting to resolve a paradox never entered my mind. Resolving paradoxes was never the tiniest part of my purpose.

What is the paradoxical issue that you find here? Michael Hardy 21:25, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hello, I've just completely rewritten the article 0/0 and thought you might like to pop over and have a look. I think I agree with you in most part over the issue with the article. I've tried to explain the issue of 0/0's non determinacy from the point of view of other previously undefined concepts. I think we should incorporate the material on the page somewhere on wikipedia or possibly just leave it where it is. What do you think? (We probably don't have much time for a resoltion). Barnaby dawson 16:52, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

User:Old Right and User:Crevaner
Thanks. I'm glad I'm not the only one. At least I'm not imagining things. :) RickK 22:14, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

Steller Secondary School
Thanks for your vote in favor of keeping my Steller Secondary School page. I've added a few sentences to enhance its notability, so I think it will probably stay.

Engrish
Your point of order was rude and out of line. If you had bothered to do a little looking, you'd have noticed that there was a short time lag between my insertding the VfD template in the article and my editing the VfD project page. In that time lag, someone inserted a vote. As they got in before me, I deemed it polite to put in my vote afterwards. I hope this answers your "Why?", but if it does not, well tough mate. Vincent 01:49, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The Apprentice 2
Is there some reason why you messed up the nice, neat list of candidates on The Apprentice 2 with info already on The Apprentice 2 Candidates page? I have already conceded to the haters who nominated and voted to delete the individual candidate articles. Why can't the Apprentice be left in peace to people who actually care about the show (or even those who might have constructive criticisms or edits)?--Nelson Ricardo >>Talk<< 02:36, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)

Chi-squared test
Why did you change the link from nomogram to chi-squared test to a link to Pearson's chi-squared test? Is there some reason why Pearson's chi-squared test is the only chi-squared test to which that statement would apply? Michael Hardy 22:33, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia license?
On several pictures you uploaded, you said "Image copyright ©2004 by Daniel P. B. Smith and released under the terms of the Wikipedia license." - did you mean the GFDL? &rarr;Raul654 01:47, Sep 25, 2004 (UTC)

Dr. Michael M. Krop High School

 * Please check the page out now. It's not finished yet, but I think it's improving.  Hope you can change your vote to KEEP.  your help will be greatly appreciated.  --AAAAA 19:56, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Your help is GREATLY appreciated. I will keep working on the article.  The school is too young to have famous ex-alumni or national award winners.  But I still believe that in the not-so-distant future Wikipedia will have articles for most schools (at least in the U.S.)  High school teachers and students all over are becoming more aware of Wikipedia, and I am sure that little by little everybody will want their school included.--AAAAA 20:13, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree with you 100%. However, I don't like things done half way.  I HAVE to put all my effort into what I start.  That's the way I am.  If at the end the article gets deleted, then I guess there was nothing else I could do.  I will not die or cry if that happens. At least I know I put all my effort.--AAAAA 16:26, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

inverted manipulation
Thanks for the comments...I think the article is irredeemable, but I will continue to try to keep the article from misrepresenting this as an actual entity - until the "promoters" wear me down, anyway. In all fairness to Doug, the links I was talking about were cross-links to the Wikipedia article, not his website. But inappropriate crosslinks here are being used to up the google rating of the wikipedia article, which will ultimately promote his site. I respect your patience in dealing with the agenda-driven... I have more difficulty suffering fools gladly, Biblical injunction notwithstanding. If we had a page for wikisainthood, I'd nominate you. - Nunh-huh 23:16, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Addendum: I was being too fair; he does seem to have added an external link to his website to at least one additional article. -- Nunh-huh 03:03, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

BEEFSTEW
Just thought I'd mention what a fantastic concept this is, and a good acronym too. Just wondered if you've seen the discussion breaking out at User talk:Dpbsmith/BEEFSTEW about some suggestions of amendments to the rules? -- Graham &#9786; | Talk 12:30, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I guess we're all just taking it too seriously for our own good, huh? I think I'm still going to use it though, in order to improve articles as much as to check for deletion candidates. -- Graham  &#9786; | Talk 17:31, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Renominations to VfD
At Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy, you raised the concern that the poll was not well structured and that we may be creating unnecessary instructions and complications. I've proposed a revote in a different format in an attempt to at least find out what the consensus really is. I'd appreciate your comments and changes before people start using the table. Rossami 14:49, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

MIT

 * but I have to say that the current tone of the MIT article makes me want to barf.

OK -- I'm putting on hold my plans to add a statement that God revealed MIT to be the One True Church, a degree from which guarantees that one goes to Heaven. Michael Hardy 22:48, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I've looked at your comments again, and I surprised that you would write this:


 * But is it really in the same class with Harvard, Yale, Oxford, Cambridge, the Sorbonne?

I thought it is generally regarded as not just "in a league with" those, but superior to some of those in some important respects. Michael Hardy 01:23, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

teleiophilia
Good catch! Just out of curiousity, what led you to the correct spelling? jpgordon 23:45, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ditto...and thanks for the nice note. Couldn't agree with you more about those current articles. I'd like to run those NAMBLA dweebs through a tree shredder. Slooooowly. :^) - Lucky 6.9 23:59, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

speedy deletion criteria
Good evening, Dpbsmith. I believe that the wording of the "little or no context" case for speedy deletion is ambiguous and is being misused. I've proposed a couple of different versions to try to reduce the ambiguity. I can't seem to get any interest in the topic except from Ambi who simply reverts the proposals. Would you mind at least weighing in with your thoughts at Wikipedia talk:Candidates for speedy deletion? Thanks. Rossami 04:12, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Pics of script letters.
Thanks for uploading Image:Scriptx.png and Image:Scripte.png. I notice they currently don't have image copyright tags. Could you add one to let us know the copyright status? (You can use if you release it under the GFDL, or  if you claim fair use, etc.) Thanks so much,    – Quadell (talk) (help)   22:34, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)

Poppins
I just want to heap praise on you for that "supercromuflagellistic neologicocious" song. DS 14:11, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sockpuppet votes
There is DEFINITELY a policy that accounts created after the votes for admin nominations don't count, but the VfD policy is more a non-stated policy, though it tends to be enforced, as far as I know. And it's based on first edit. RickK 22:56, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

Allerton High School
Umm, really. What is the interesting history - care to say anything about it :) There's no remote possibility that it is merely one of many many schools in leeds ... perhaps one which, I hesitate to suggest, you might have some connection with? --Tagishsimon


 * Thanks. I didn't think the two sentences were up to your normal standard ... the whole thing looked a little like an aberation. I've moved Allerton below Leeds Grammar School, which at least does have an article and is probably notable on the BEEFSTEW scale... --Tagishsimon

High schools
There is no policy or consensus for high schools. Most are kept, but even I delete a number of them. In general the dividing line has little do with notability and everything to do with the quality of the article. The high school articles that are deleted are one line stubs, unformatted, or POV. These usually receive a strong consensus to delete. A well formatted article on any high school hardly ever gets deleted. Hannibal High School was in the former category and to pattern received many delete votes. I found it when clearing out VfD/Old and saw that it could very easily be brought up to standard. If my version, that took thirty seconds to do, had been listed on VfD all my experience tells me it would have been kept and I thus decided to keep it even though I have deleted many articles with the same ratio of votes. - SimonP 15:28, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

Amazon sales rank criterion
On Votes for deletion you wrote:


 * I personally consider &#91;an Amazon sales rank&#93; worse than 200,000 to be clearly non-notable

You might want to reconsider, or at least temper this criterion with some common sense. A book may be notable and yet have a low sales rank. For example, I see that Omoo by Herman Melville has sales rank 218,962 and yet a work by America's greatest novelist is surely notable even if no-one wants to read it any more. Gdr 15:41, 2004 Oct 14 (UTC)

special brownies deletion
It was deleted because the vote of Wikibookians at the wikibooks vfd was 6-3 in favor of deletion, with all the cookbook contributers who voted voting for deletion. It was a judgement call on my part, but I think it is consistent with previous deletions there. Gentgeen 19:26, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

tran van ba
The article was deleted becuase it was provided as a autobiography, user tran van ba, that is why is was deleted. I researhed the article from the website Order of the Dragon of Anamm http://www.orderofthedragon.homestead.com myself and http://www.orderofthedragon.homestead.com/biographiesB.html gathered my own research and confirmed the photo as fair use. I conducted my own research for the new article as a biography. Jimmyvanthach 18:40, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

unfair
Why didnt you goto my talk page and speak before you just deleted by the biography I worked on ? Now I have to figure out how to use this undeletion program to figure out out to clear this out. How does the wikipedia community work smoothly? I will now attempt to work this out with undeletion Jimmyvanthach 20:03, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

help
thanks for your insight in assiting me, on the issue of the biography that I created. I will look it over and give me comments to help this article get thought the process of voting.Jimmyvanthach 10:41, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Adult High Schools
Hiya...just FYI, several Canadian cities do have adult high schools, which are meant particularly for high school dropouts who want to complete their education in a facility geared to their special needs (daycare for single mothers, etc.), but may also offer some continuing education programs as well. I didn't think this was unique to Canada, but I'll look into it further. Bearcat 18:11, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I just wrote up a quickie stub for Adult high school. Bearcat 18:31, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

John Hancock buildings
Can you lend me a reference for the third John Hancock building in Boston? 200 Clarendon St is the site of the current John Hancock Tower, so this must have been one that was torn down a long time ago? Looking up Cram and Ferguson doesn't come up with any buildings for the Hancock company in 1922, the earliest is 1947/1950.

Thanks, KeithTyler 22:01, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

Cloyne Court Hotel
I think that you just missed putting the link to the article as a third level header within the subpage. I've added it and it looks ok now. The instructions at the bottom of the vfd page are a bit confusing. Noisy | Talk 17:29, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wagon Wheel effect
Thank you for a very illuminating answer. Dainamo 21:19, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I snitched said answer and dumped it into temporal aliasing with minimal cleanup: what say you? --Phil | Talk 16:06, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

WP:VFD/HS
Just letting you know that I thought you might be interested in taking a look at Votes for deletion/High schools, as well as what I wrote on Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy. &mdash;Lowellian (talk)  05:39, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for the reassurance, but I didn't think you did. I did feel I had to say something to indicate I didn't think my action was equivalent to dougs (for the record, as it were, as old pages never die and are dredged up later in "evidence", rather than pointed in anyone's direction). I think your proposed solution would be very, very good, and hope that it comes to fruition. - Nunh-huh 04:19, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

High schools
Actually, the list includes not just middle and elementary schools, but also school districts, as you can see if you read the intro paragraph. I only named it "high schools" because (1) it's mostly "high schools" (2) just "schools" by itself might give people who don't actually visit the page the wrong impression that it's also about colleges and universities (3) since most of the debate centers around high schools, it immediately grabs people's attention and lets people know what the page is about.

I initially really liked your suggestion about the red links and was going to tell you to do it, as it's a good idea because not only does it result in automatic updating, it also gets us a link to surviving high schools so we can check out the quality of the page (and for admins, it's a link to deleted schools that lets us look at the quality of the deleted pages). But then, I realized there was a problem: what if the page was deleted and then redirected? The page would show up blue, but it would still have been deleted. Or what if the page was merged into some other page? &mdash;Lowellian (talk)  20:03, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)

Sign your votes

 * Hey, just letting you know you forgot to sign your vote on Netaholic's RfA page. --Improv 15:31, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Poverty pimp
I saw 5 keep votes as I counted Jmabel's "I'm not sure what I want to do with it, but I'm hesitant to delete outright" as a keep. One of the eight delete votes, signed as "Chaz", was by an anon IP. Per policy I ignored this vote. This left the count 7 to 5 in favour of deletion, clearly not consensus. - SimonP 20:33, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)


 * I added a summary of my decision to the archived delete debate. - SimonP 20:49, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

Outing
Ok, now there is no reason for anyone to use the word "homosocial" unless he or she is a literature person. I know all that MIT stuff on your page is just a ruse. Too many quotes from literature dropped into the votes, use of "homosocial".... Admit it:  you teach literature, don't you? It's ok. There are several of us here. :-) Geogre 22:49, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * It's alright. I understand that you're not ready to admit it yet.  Still, thousands of litgeeks function in society perfectly well, hardly ever letting anyone hear their snorts as they watch a bad popular movie or hear a misquoted line of poetry.  Oh, sure, there are some who work in coffee shops, dress in black, and do other stereotype things.  They're new to their selves and aren't ready, yet, to accept literature as just a normal part of who they are.  When, as Seamus Heaney said, "The quotations start to rise/ Like rehearsed alibis" at dinner by the sea and the conversation turns to poetry about the sea instead of actually looking at the sea itself, it's time to admit it.  I still remember my family's shock when they found out that I wanted to be an English literature Ph.D.  "Can't you try not being literary?  Maybe go to law school?"  No, I was fated to making textual emendations and disputing literary theory, I'm afraid.  Geogre 04:19, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

re Scott Gall
a nice gentle touch there and wholly appropriate. I shall try and contact him through his article and give him some guidlines,  ping 10:14, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Undeletion of American World University
Would you mind showing the article's content before my edits? I am questioning the legitimacy of the vfd delete in this case because the changes I made were so significant. The deletion occured before anyone had voted after my changes, so the article that was deleted was esentially a totally different article from the one that people voted to delete. Thanks for your assistance. --L33tminion | (talk) 23:17, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

That may well be so, although I think the page I wrote is a valid stub and should be kept. I would accept the page being sent to vfd again immediately upon undelete (with the prior vfd history archived), and I would accept whatever the consensus is on the article at that time. I just want my work to have a fair chance. --L33tminion | (talk) 01:18, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

Vote for Undeletion of "American World University"
I apologize for bothering you about this, and I normally do not request that individual users reconsider their votes on a specific issue.

I contest the deletion of this article because it was deleted after I had just made major changes. Although a clear consensus existed for deleting the article before that time, there were no votes after my edit, except for mine.

I would not oppose to the article immediately being sent to vfd (with the old vote archived), and I will accept the consensus it recieves there. I think that it is a valid stub, and I would want to keep it, but I accept that Wikipedia is a democracy, and I will accept the will of the people. I just want my work to have a fair chance.

So I request that you return to the undeletion entry, read the two versions of the article, and reconsider your vote. I thank you for your time. --L33tminion | (talk) 01:32, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

Your version of "Glory Hallelujah" ...
... is so pacifistic! In the Old South, it was "Glory, glory, Hallelujah/Teacher hit me with a ruler/Hid behind the door with a loaded .44/Now she ain't gonna teach no more! Rlquall 03:55, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

AppleLink
Are you sure that AL's UI was based on something GE did? I used both services extensively in the early 1990s, and I don't remember any GUI being used or mentioned in relation to GEnie (with the exception of AL that is). While AL's GUI left some to be desired, GEnie's was, without doubt, the worst CLUI I have ever seen.

Likewise I'm pretty sure that Quantum/AOL had nothing to do with GEnie at any point. I remember their ads in Whole Earth circa 1985 (when they were for the C64) and I'm pretty sure they already had their own server farm in VA by that point.

I know some of the people at Apple Online, I should track them down.

Maury 13:01, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the quotes. They confirmed what I noted above -- GEIS ran the service but Apple wrapped it in their own UI (no mean feat). Maury 23:42, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, Nav was amazing. After setting it up you could do all your mail and BBS's in about 1 minute of online time -- and I wrote a LOT (about 100 messages a day in my prime). CIS hated it though, because it saved us money! Maury 00:01, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

American World University
Please stop vandalising this article by removing clearly relevant links. anthony &#35686;&#21578; 15:35, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * In case you are unaware, Anthony listed you on vandalism in progress for removing those links, despite that they were obviously not vandalism. Thersa Knott removed it and explained the situation, and he relisted it. This action is clearly in violation of his standing order, so feel free to block him for 24 hours. &rarr;Raul654 22:53, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

The promotional links issue
Can I tell the difference without looking at the Wiki markup? Absolutely: I just hover my mouse over the link and the URL shows up in my status bar. In fact, I never would have clicked on the redirected link if I didn't trust you, as it could have taken me anywhere, perhaps to a spoof site or a site that would attempt to run maliscious scripts or upload viruses to my computer.

Are you suggesting that Wikipedia should use such redirecting services for all links? This is a rediculous suggestion for two reasons. One, implementing this policy on all links would be more or less impossible. Two, using such redirects is inheirently dishonest because it prevents the user from knowing the true URL without actually clicking on the link.

If not, then what you are suggesting is inheirently NPOV in and of itself: You suggest that we should only prevent people from benefiting from a link  if either they intend to benefit or if they "should not" be supported. The purpose of Wikipedia is to provide information, not to judge, and we should be unconcerned if someone indirectly benefits from an article linking to their site. High ranking on a Google search does not provide legitimacy. Links should be there or not there, there is no need to use tricks. If a link is relevent, it should be kept.

Wikipedia content should be evaluated based on itself, not on intent. Clearly, pasting a thousand links to a site is not using the sandbox for its intended purpose. Should Wikipedia care about this? Well, only if it prevents other users from using the sandbox. Google is the one who should care about it, and they should exclude the Wikipedia sandbox from their indexing of other sites, as that can serve no useful purpose.

As far as the publisher adding links to articles on books they published, that link should be kept if it is relevant to the article. Is a publisher's site relevant to an article on a book they published? Perhaps. But those links should be evaluated based on relevence, not intention.

Certainly, such links are a poor reason to exclude an article entirely. We shouldn't worry about helping the "bad guys" as judging who is good or bad is not Wikipedia's job. We aren't here to judge intentions, just to write useful, NPOV articles.

(In the case of American World University, the origional article was a POV testimonial, but was by no means a googlebomb, as it contained no links. I added the link to the website when rewriting the article because I thought it was relevant, and I am in no means trying to promote the college itself (even though I feel that Wikipedia shoud have an article on it, as if it is not a notable college, it is a notable scam)).

--L33tminion | (talk) 18:24, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm glad we could talk about this issue. I commend you for expressing your concerns in such a clear, thoughtful, and civilized manner.  --L33tminion | (talk) 22:41, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)

User:Yitzhak
I really don't like using email for Wikipedia discussions, I prefer Talk pages, I'll leave him a note. RickK 23:24, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

RFA
Thanks for your "yes" vote on my RFA. The nomination went through, and I'm looking forward to helping keep things tidy. Joyous 00:09, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)