User talk:Drwilliamsheldon

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Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. We appreciate encyclopedic contributions, but some of your recent contributions, such as your edit to the page Virtue signalling, have removed content without a good reason to do so. Content on Wikipedia should not be removed just because you disagree with it or because you think it's wrong, unless the claim is not verifiable. Instead, you should consider expanding the article with noteworthy and verifiable information of your own, citing reliable sources when you do so. If you'd like to experiment with the wiki's syntax, please do so in the sandbox rather than in articles. The following links will help you begin editing on Wikipedia:
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The Wikipedia tutorial is a good place to start learning about Wikipedia. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and discussion pages using four tildes, like this: &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; (the software will replace them with your signature and the date). Again, welcome! Netherzone (talk) 02:11, 12 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I respectfully disagree as a medical doctor. The term “vice signaling” is nowhere in the medical literature (in this case DSM). Therefore, the term has no place in this article for the context in which it was inserted. While it was added under the “Opinion” heading, it was particularly odd to see multiple snipes at right wing politics. Politics have no place in the article as virtue signaling itself is apolitical. Of course it can be used in any discussion, so let’s make the article better by dealing with it medically.
 * Thank you.
 * Dr. William S Sheldon. 72.199.146.33 (talk) 05:46, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello William, please edit while logged in, otherwise your IP address is visible which may compromise your privacy.
 * It takes a while to learn how things work around here. Respectfully, whether or not you have a medical degree is of no importance. If you would like to propose a section on how the medical field uses virtue (or vice) signalling, please post your suggestion on the article talk page to gain consensus, and please be sure to add links to independent, verifiable, published sources.
 * As an encylopedia, we go by what independent, verifiable, reliable sources say about a subject, whether we personally agree or disagree with the content. The article is affiliated with WikiProject Politics and WikiProject Psychology. Interestingly, if you read the references, you will find that several reliable sources (New York Times, Financial Times, among several others) report on the counterpart to virtue signalling as vice signalling, and that the term is used within a political context. Whether or not it is used in the context of the "right" or the "left" is irrelevant, as WP goes by what the sources report, not by what we "like" or "dislike". Netherzone (talk) 07:33, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I think my medical degree is important here. I'm a medical doctor telling you that there is no medical reference to "vice signaling". If there were, I would only take issue with the examples given as they reference political examples. The opinions section implies the term was coined by an editor at the Financial Times. While this certainly may be up for debate, it is not a scientifically recognized term at this time.
 * Vice signaling aside, the Opinion section seems to focus on political examples that aim from left to right. My issue with this is that the term itself now identifies with politics when it should be linguistically amorphous.
 * To be clear, I respect your rules and regulations, and as a doctor, I'm only trying to help this article, not push my opinion into it. But please understand that as a doctor, I am a scientist and take issue with the molding of the term to politics.
 * I think if those examples are moved to the Example section, it's more fitting since both virtue signaling and vice signaling can be used in any verbal context.
 * I believe the opinion section should show what I have reflected in my edits as those sentences are truly opinions on the matter.
 * Sincerely,
 * Dr. William S. Sheldon. Drwilliamsheldon (talk) 09:48, 12 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I see your controvertial changes have been reverted again by another editor. Please do not make the edit again, lest it may start an edit war. Wikipedia is not censored. If the text contains validly sourced content that you happen to personally disagree with, it is not a reason to remove it to bend the article to your point of view. The term, which describes both a concept and a behavior, HAS political implications, as reported in reliable sources, even though you find that objectionable. In fact, the Cambridge Dictionary, defines virtue signalling is "an attempt to show other people that you are a good person, for example by expressing opinions that will be acceptable to them, especially on social media... indicating that one has virtue merely by expressing disgust or favour for certain political ideas or cultural happenings".
 * Instead of continuing to change the article to your preferred version, start a discussion on the article talk page. That is how things work on WP. See the guidelines on the "Bold, Revert, Discuss" cycle WP:BRD for achieving consensus. Both  and I have advised you to start a talk-page discussion. WP editors work together collaboratively through the process of consensus, which is policy. Again, if you want to start a section on medical debate of the term or whatever, you can propose it on the talk page.
 * Having said that, I changed the section title, "Opinion" to "Vice signalling counterpart term" and moved it below "Examples", which is a better place for it, and a better heading.
 * Again, your medical degree is irrelevant here and does not give you any special privileges or rights. I mean that with all due respect. We are all equals. It does not matter if an editor is a doctor or a plumber. Netherzone (talk) 16:12, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I think we will need to agree to disagree.
 * What you're citing as reference material aren't references at all. You're simply linking to conjecture and opinion with no binding medical peer review or inclusion in the literature. None of the so-called references in this article are APA qualified references either. No one is bending anything here. I'm telling you as a medical doctor who is an authority on the matter that your article is patently wrong. I am a far more extensive reference than an editor at Financial Times.
 * As you're a laymen, I'll excuse your lack of knowledge on virtue signaling by citing a dictionary term for it. This is a very loose definition of it and not at all comprehensive. Virtual signaling is actually directly related to what we call "dark triad" personality traits that consist of "Machiavellianism, Narcissism, and Psychopathy". You'll even find colloquial references to this all over the Internet.
 * I will bother you know more and have no desire to continue to provide guidance to your article when it's quite clear your platform is being used for partisan political grandstanding instead of education. This should not be allowed or as I suggested to you earlier, move such examples into the "Examples" as I suggested to you, for which it appears you have done do.
 * If a medical doctor can't inform you on such a matter, then it's not worth my time to continue.
 * Good luck.
 * Sincerely,
 * Dr. William S. Sheldon. Drwilliamsheldon (talk) 21:05, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Please pardon the typos as I'm finger typing on my tablet. Drwilliamsheldon (talk) 21:07, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You are making a whole lot of assumptions here. Please take your concerns to the article talk page. Netherzone (talk) 22:00, 12 August 2023 (UTC)