User talk:Duckecho/Archive03

your buddy defended you; noble, but not totally necessary: FW made (IMHO) a mountain out of a molehill
This is the conversation about you; I don't want to talk about you -good or bad -behind your back. Anyhow, here's a copy...


 * Here's my two cents worth: Tony does have a point that duck can be proprietal; a look at his contributions, while difficult and lengthy, would eventually verify this. His comments about wack-jobs who've just fallen off the turnip truck indicate he thinks that there are weirdoes out there. That alone, I would agree with Duck, is not offensive, and both of you do appear to contribute. However, taken in the context of his attitude towards NCdave and calling Ann a Pain in the @--, it becomes clear that Duck's faulty logic that the courts must necessarily be NPOV is flawed at the base. That is not to say that he is clueless. Most of his edits seem responsible, and his 500-word summary on improvements for the Schiavo article did not show much bias, but the preceding three links revealed bias was there but dormant. My conclusion is that both of you over-reacted; I would not have snapped back at Tony, but instead acknowledged that I do have a slight amount of proprietoral (spelling?) attitude and then proceeded to justify it by my contributions. Likewise, I am not critical of Tony for making a small typo. We all do. Also, his comment wasn't "evil," but I think I would not have been as critical of Duck regarding the turnip truck comment. Duck has done enough other weird things to criticize, but he also benevolently put in a link to my court case in the activism and protest section back on May 14, two days before my birthday. I bragged about my prowess in court, win lose or draw, and he continues to make generally responsible edits, but if you have time, Tony, you are welcome to keep an eye on us, so long as you follow the context and discussion. --GordonWattsDotCom 1 July 2005 01:14 (UTC)


 * Gordon, this was specifically about the conversational thread between Duckecho and Tony Sidaway. In that thread, there was nothing proprietorial and nothing that qualified as a personal attack, despite Tony's claims. Duck's interaction with Tony did not warrant Tony's response. Tony wasn't referencing Duck's interaction with you, Ann, or anyone else, he was talking specifically about what Duck said to him. You have stooped to digging up dirt and slinging it as mud from whatever personal grudge you have against Duck. If you have a problem with Duck, you should bring it up to a neutral administrator. But at this point, Tony no longer qualifies as a neutral party in this discussion. And asking him to "keep an eye" on us is adversarial. FuelWagon 1 July 2005 14:30 (UTC)


 * I said "That alone [Duck's comment], I would agree with Duck, is not offensive, and both of you do appear to contribute." Here, I not only defend Duck, but I also acknowledge hard work and contributions. You miss the positive, or at least don't comment on it? However, any statement or action is only understood in its proper context. I have not ax to grind with Duck, or I would either tell him about it or tell it to the mediator mediating out page disputes. In case you haven't noticed, in my 500-page summary (and even the "extra" stuff I submitted), I did not criticize Duck. I even defended him for criticizing erstwhile admin, Neutrality. I didn't "dig up dirt." I merely quoted him; if there was any dirt, it came from his mouth (or keyboard, as it were). You are entitled to have your opinions of Tony, but, as I pointed out, they are only partly justified. Perhaps his credibility has slipped a tad, but we're all human. It would not be out of place for you to defend Duck from when I quoted him -if the quotes were in the context of a false representation of him, but my representation of Duck was mostly positive, with the use of quotes merely for the purpose of bringing balance. There is not "problem with Duck" right now, and no ax to grind. Maybe you are too sensitive? You can make a mountain out of a molehill, but that is trying to beat the law of diminishing returns  in the theory of  marginal utility . (Surprisingly,  Diminishing marginal utility  is yet a third entry, albeit a stub article.) It is simply not worth it to steam over small fries.-- GordonWattsDotCom  2 July 2005 01:15 (UTC)

Linking to His Own Site(s)
I picked up on a little bit of that from the Talk page.

Some people here are unbelievable.

Take a look at the Marla Ruzicka Talk: page for some more wingnuttery on parade.

--AStanhope 04:47, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Automatic GW reverts
he's become quite the verbose and pesky varmint... FuelWagon 02:04, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Wagon, if you want to impress us with your accomplishments or research in the Schiavo case, post them on the talk page, but unjustified criticism of another's accomplishments makes not your own. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 10:45, 16 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia isn't about impressing people, Gordon. FuelWagon isn't adding links to his site.--Fangz 23:19, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I removed your sup tags - explanation
I removed your sup tags - explanation: Your burden of proof was incorrect; As the "norm" before you arrived, the lack of tags is status quo, and your changing of them was unwarranted; I don't mind you use the link markers, or whatever you call them if they were there before your major edit; The prior version was pretty good with respect to showing link in text a size big enough for readers.-- GordonWattsDotCom 15:02, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Update: I hate to do this, but I'm reporting you for a 3RR
Update: I hate to do this, but I'm reporting you for a 3RR:

Diff link: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR&diff=18534078&oldid=18533983#User:Duckecho

Actual link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:Duckecho

-- GordonWattsDotCom 15:41, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

You are a capable editor, and you would make a good admin, or even sysop, if you chill out and relax and let your logic guide your emotions. I said as much on the 3RR page, but I was not talking tall stories to make a point here, but I'll let you decide your fate. Take care,-- GordonWattsDotCom 15:47, 10 July 2005 (UTC)


 * OMG! that is too damn funny. FuelWagon 20:35, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Ongoing efforts on the Terri Schiavo page
Thank you for putting in the energy that I haven't been able to lately. My whole family's been ill. Your attempt to go line-by-line is the best way to go. I just hope the extremists don't unwind it too much.--ghost 13:48, 24 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Once again...Kudos. And thanks.--ghost 21:50, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Spelling error LMAO! You were right. Fruedian slip. ;-) Thanks for the head's up.--ghost 03:52, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Palm Sunday rewrite
I understand your concern that the admin's reaction/lack of reaction during the week of the 3/20/05 to various events may not fit well as written. I'm not yet satisfied with it, and I'd like to see if we can tweak it. A statement of fact about the controversy surronding reactions (with link) to both cases fits better in the Terri Schiavo article than it does in the Red Lake High School massacre. In fact, in the RLHS massacre article, the paragraph was removed because the relavence was questioned. I added a link in the References table there rather than reinsert the paragraph. I think the Terri Schiavo article needs to mention something in order to suggest motivations for the extraordinary efforts surrounding the compromise and encouraging the reader to dig deeper. Should this mention the Talking Points memo? Would the RLHS reference make more sense in the context of the memo? Whatever, we should keep things to one or two sentences that encourage research.--ghost 12:50, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Talk:Air Force One
You replaced the entire Talk:Air Force One page with just a single subsection thereof. Is that what you intended to do? Kelly Martin 22:05, May 26, 2005 (UTC)


 * Geez, you're quick. No it wasn't. I don't know how it happened, and I noticed it and fixed it immediately. Duckecho 22:14, 26 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I watch the recent changes feed for edits that remove over 2000 bytes and investigate them for reasonability. This is especially the case for Talk: pages, which generally should never shrink, except when being archived.  Kelly Martin 22:18, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Government involvement in the Terri Schiavo case
I think you ran into the same problem on this page, too. Kelly Martin 01:46, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yep, I fixed it. --Viriditas | Talk 03:16, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Name format
Minor quibble ... yes, the Chuck Yeager and Joe foss pages use the "first, middle, nickname, surname" format, but then again the Bill Gates page uses the "commonly known as" form, and we already got rid of that one. I don't like eaither, but also, 'Terri' isn't really a nickname, it's an abbreviation of 'Theresa'. To me, Theresa Marie 'Terri' Schiavo is ugly ... how about we go with the version we discussed on the talk page? ("Terri Schiavo, full name Theresa Marie Schiavo")? Proto 15:33, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Government involvement in the Terri Schiavo case
Mistakes happen, and I'm no stranger to them. For example, just yesterday I mistakenly redirected an article to the wrong page and moved an article instead of redirecting. I was able to fix the former, but now I need the help of an admin to fix the latter. So, you're not alone. I don't think anyone thinks of you as a vandal. --Viriditas | Talk 22:18, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

For a good laugh...Comments from A ghost
Come see the mess FuelWagon and I got ourselves into on the Intelligent design page. And I thought the Terri Schiavo article needed work...it was a warm-up.--ghost 03:57, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You and FuelWagon deserve some of this praise.--ghost 19:42, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Re:Uncle Ed's rewrite of the intro: Yeah, I wasn't completely happy with his version either.  For what it's worth, the revert was done with regret.  But I let the genie out of the bottle, so I've got to take responsability for some of the consequences.  Unfortunately, Ed's first instinct seems to be that we can all gather around the fire, eat brownies and sing Kumbaya.  I tried; it doesn't work.  He may have to learn the error of this approach through experience.--ghost 15:20, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Yeah, if I remember, your revert was when I was on a mission regarding mentioning the Red Lake High School massacre. I didn't complain because I gave up and swallowed my pride.  I was right, but it was becoming clear that I hold a minority opinion on that one and that it wasn't going to be respected.  So, I chose to be a part of the community rather than not.  Such are the sacrifices we make to be good neighbors. 8-) --ghost 16:31, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Re: Reducing article size on Terri Schiavo: You may want to have a look at the article splits done on Intelligent design & Intelligent design movement to have a better idea of what I propose.  FeloniousMonk was originally opposed, but has since become a convert.  I didn't provide links of the examples on the Talk:Terri Schiavo page because I'd rather avoid sharing trolls.--ghost 17:53, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Also, I had done similar tightening on the Terri Schiavo/sandbox, but it was ignored and is quite out of date. Hope it helps.--ghost 18:02, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * SWMBO - LOL. I have one too. Terri (my wife) doesn't really understand why we care, be respects that we do.  Please convey my thanks for you time to your Lady.  Your efforts on this page have kept several things from spiraling out of control.  And what keeps me motivated is the thought of my children (or yours) using this as a resource.  They're who I write for.--ghost 18:31, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Re:sectional NPOV flag - Nah, we're kool. I knew it wasn't a shot at me. In fact, it was a 'check' manuver on Mr. Dave. It was meant to force him to admit that that one little stupid line was the only thing he had an issue with (for now). That left him with the options of 1)leaving it, and admiting he was being petty; 2) yank it and reinsert the general NPOV, allowing me to escalate; 3) yank it altogether. Either way, I win.  I've played various games at tournament levels for years.  I'm in an endgame with Mr. Dave.  And I play to win.--ghost 02:42, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Re:"Holidays must have been hell for you."LOL. No, they were great. It was like watching Jon Stewart's segment of Comedy Central for hours.  LMAO(it's on now). And Bill Moyers just said, "If Mark Twain was alive, he'd be working at Comedy Central."  Although the Ford/Carter campaign was tense.  Grandma (the Senator) and Grandpa were politicians and lawyers by trade; singers and comedic actors (Gilbert & Sullivan) by choice.--ghost 04:00, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I have asked for disciplinary measures against NCDave on Talk:Terri Schiavo/Mediation. I ask for your support.--ghost 20:17, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Re:spelling corrections. NP, bro. Thx. My spell checker (me) is on the frizizzle.--ghost 22:35, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Re: Dr. Cranford - WOW! Good Job!--ghost 6 July 2005 21:50 (UTC)

Mediator's Announcement
You are invited to participate in the Mediation regarding the Terry Schiavo article. Initial discussion is beginning at Talk:Terri Schiavo/Mediation. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 20:28, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Remand
Do you have any online references for the information you intend to insert? I'm happy for you to add it as it's hard to review without something to work from. -- Longhair | Talk 02:39, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Excellent. I look forward to seeing it all fall into place :) -- Longhair | Talk 02:52, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually I prefer the information in the one article. They're both legal terms and somewhat related. -- Longhair | Talk 03:16, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * If that's what you call a draft, I think it's pretty bloody good. I'm all the more informed, thanks. -- Longhair | Talk 15:24, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In re Schiavo
Hi there, not sure about Wikittiquet on replying user page discussions, but I responded to your question on my page. ~ Neuroscientist 15:09, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Terri Schiavo
Sorry, I totally screwed up. Thought I was inserting when I was removing (how'd that happen? weird!) --Tony Sidaway|Talk 28 June 2005 16:50 (UTC)


 * I appreciate you owning up to it. I don't take it kindly when someone swoops in and does a fly-by-night revert of a perfectly sound edit of mine (or anyone else) with clearly no research. We've had quite a bit of a problem with Neutrality over that, too (and as I reflect on it, I believe he's the one who took sic out in a fit of drive-by vandalism shortly after the autopsy report came out). However, if you had looked at my edit, you would have plainly seen that the sic was there and that you weren't in fact inserting anything. I've been working on TS daily for several months and am one of the respected editors there, even by the malcontents. Even if you don't agree with something I may have done with the article, I deserve at least a complete look before acting, and since there's a controversial tag on the talk page it's incumbent on you to see what's going on with the article before you make any edits. Duckecho (Talk) 29 June 2005 17:23 (UTC)


 * Beware of the proprietorial attitude. Editors make mistakes and of course we own up to them, but you're getting close to the point where you're asserting that your edits are intrinsically better than other edits because you're "respected". That isn't how Wikipedia works. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 29 June 2005 10:52 (UTC)


 * Not even remotely close. My point about being respected was to illustrate that I'm not some wack-job who just fell off the turnip truck nor unknowledgable on the subject of the article and the process of improving it. That's as opposed to someone who just whistles through without so much as a word of discussion and makes edits that not only indicate a complete lack of awareness of what they're doing but is exactly the opposite of what they might have intended. I'd say that's beyond the point of thinking that one's edits are intrinsically better than the consensus edits of an active team just because…they're what, an administrator? How very&hellip;proprietorial. Duckecho (Talk) 29 June 2005 12:51 (UTC)


 * Well now you're comparing other editors to "some wack-job who just fell off the turnip truck" --Tony Sidaway|Talk 29 June 2005 12:59 (UTC)


 * Tony, you're reading an attack where none exists. Duckecho mentions whack-jobs who just fell off a turnip truck, but he compares no one to that measure. There is a difference between comparing john-jacob-jingle-heimer-shmidt to a whack-job-off-the-turnip-truck, and just talking about whack-jobs in general and mentioning no one specifically. If you've never encountered a whack-job on the internet, you're either inexperienced or extremely lucky. They exist. There are plenty of them on the net and some of them even come on wikipedia. From this point on, your conversation with Duck stops and you're talking to to your perception of an attacker. Not surprisingly, the conversation breaks down completely. It would be funny if it weren't tragic. FuelWagon 30 June 2005 22:36 (UTC)


 * I'm beginning to see the problem. I would have thought that with your experience you would be aware that there are people who come through wikipedia and vandalize articles, in some case by completely deleting them, often with bizarre and tasteless comments. Is it fair to suggest that those editors are less than optimum for wikipedia? Is it unfair to suggest that I'm not one of them? Duckecho (Talk) 29 June 2005 13:38 (UTC)


 * &hellip;and you're falsely accusing me of using my administrator status. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 29 June 2005 12:59 (UTC)


 * Please spare me the victim response. I did no such thing. My point clearly was that as an administrator, you of all people should know better than to undo the earnest work of other editors without even bothering to see what it was that needed your apparent wisdom. Moreover, I wasn't even talking about just you, which can clearly be seen in my initial post. Duckecho (Talk) 29 June 2005 13:38 (UTC)


 * I don't know where all this hostility is coming from, but I think it's appropriate to counsel against continuing to treat other editors in this way. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 29 June 2005 12:59 (UTC)


 * Then I suggest you reread my posts. I take exception to people putting hard work and effort into a project only to have it undone by a party, who by virtue of their position should be very sensitive to structure and policy, coming by, without any participation in the discussion page and makes an ill advised edit. There's nothing inappropriate about being defensive of the work fellow editors have done, and protective of unknowledgable parties' undoing of that work. I think it's appropriate to heed your own counsel. Duckecho (Talk) 29 June 2005 13:38 (UTC)


 * Please show some respect. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 29 June 2005 12:59 (UTC)


 * Given when earned. Your responses and attitude have unearned mine. You had my respect when you owned up to your misguided edit. You lost it when you started accusing me of having a superior attitude when I made no such assertion. You can start rehabilitating yourself by taking a look at your own attitude and discontinuing the hyprbole. Duckecho (Talk) 29 June 2005 13:38 (UTC)


 * Okay, you've convinced me. Now I recognise that you *are* a problem user and as an administrator I've added you to my list of editors to watch carefully.  I want you to read and, over the next few weeks, demonstrate a clear understanding No personal attacks.  --Tony Sidaway|Talk 29 June 2005 16:45 (UTC)


 * Now you may consider yourself accused of misusing your administrator status and engaging in a personal attack. Your idea of a debate over a difference of opinion is apparently to throw your weight around. Well done. Have fun. Duckecho (Talk) 29 June 2005 18:06 (UTC)


 * For a second time you falsely accuse me of throwing my weight around. Do read No personal attacks, and attempt to implement it in your engagements with others.  --Tony Sidaway|Talk 29 June 2005 19:58 (UTC)

If I may...You're both right, and both wrong. The proprietorial attitude came thru from both of you, but isn't entirely out of place, because you're both respected editors. However, I must protest Duckecho being blacklisted over this matter. And if he is, then I think it would be best if you added yourself. This was a misunderstanding that's spirialed out of proportion. Nothing more.--ghost 30 June 2005 15:36 (UTC)

I made a post related to this discussion on Tony's talk page here. FuelWagon 1 July 2005 00:05 (UTC)


 * I've asked Tony to publicise his greylist, so that we are all clear who else he is watching in this way. Grace Note 03:23, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Re Gordie
Thanks for pointing that out. There's a joke in there somewhere about repression that I'm not going into. Incidentally, your Talk page has been quite informative about Mr. Watts. I had no idea. A pattern of deception - I feel rather less bad about being a bit sharp with him.~ Neuroscientist July 3, 2005 17:30 (UTC)

Empress Matilda
Hi Duckecho. No problem at all with the moving of the page :-) To be honest I always thought she was known as Empress Matilda too but I made the redirect because you lapsed on redirecting the article. But well done on the research anyhoo. Happy editing! Craigy (talk) July 5, 2005 20:50 (UTC)

"Diagnosed as"
You'll want to read Ann's note, Duck. Just a heads up in case you haven't seen it. It's under London bombings.~ Neuroscientist | T | C July 8, 2005 22:53 (UTC)

Intro
Duck, very sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner re the Intro. I've left a response on the horribly cluttered Talk page, but here's a version of the intro I put together. It's kindasorta what I have in mind.


 * Lead sentence (unchanged): Theresa Marie "Terri" Schiavo (3 December 1963–31 March 2005), was a St. Petersburg, Florida woman whose medical circumstances and attendant legal battles led to landmark court decisions, historical legislative initiatives, and intense media attention.


 * 1.On February 25, 1990, Schiavo (pronounced SHY-voh, IPA: ) experienced cardiac arrest and collapsed in her home. Despite heroic resuscitative measures, she suffered severe brain damage from the ensuing cerebral hypoxia, briefly lapsed into a coma, and spent the remaining 15 years of her life in a condition diagnosed as an irreversible persistent vegetative state (PVS).


 * 2. During her final years, a major dispute broke out between her parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, and her husband and legal guardian, Michael Schiavo. Mr. Schiavo felt that his wife would not have wished to be maintained in an irreversible vegetative state through artificial means; the Schindlers disputed this. Their disagreement led to years of acrimonious court battles, and focused attention, in a very public way, on controversies over legal guardianship, substitute decision-making, civil rights, and end-of-life care. In the highly publicized court disputes that ensued, even the medical diagnosis of Schiavo's altered state of consciousness was questioned and litigated.


 * 3.At its height, the dispute made its way into the chambers of the United States Congress, when a law was passed to transfer jurisdiction of the Schiavo case from the Florida state courts to federal courts.


 * 4. The courts, at both state and federal levels, consistently ruled in favor of removing artificial nutrition that was being used to maintain Schiavo in an irreversible vegetative state. Terri Schiavo died on 31 March, 2005 at approximately 9:05 a.m. EST.

~ Neuroscientist | T | C 23:16, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Hey Duck (I can't believe I'm calling a gentleman almost twice my age that. I have an urge to begin each correspondence with you henceforth with, "Mr. Duckecho, sir, if you please..."). I'll adress your questions in turn. Numerals refer to those above.

Lead - we're agreed. 1. The evolved into jarred a bit, Duck. If your para was fixed, and there was only one thing I could change, that's what I' d change. I suspected when I read it you were fishing for something else but didn't quite get it.

2. You're correct - there is more in there than there needs to be. Yes, names can be excised. The clauses with "public" in them are redundant, so one "public" may be chopped. The rest of that paragraph is a microcosm of the Schiavo story. I feel we need to be "general" (for example, I think that naming or numbering doctors who did this or that probably hurts the article - it's too much detail and it will turn people off; Fuel may disagree); yet, we do need to say what this story is about. If we don't the intro fails. The story is about a woman who lost all that which makes us truly human, and whose loved ones couldn't agree on what to do after that. That basic story needs to be told, simply, I agree, but somewhere. In my version I put it in #2.

3.This bit happened because it was difficult to work the Congressional battle into 2 (although we certainly could do it if we wanted; but the quality of 2 will drop, methinks). Initially I added a second sentence in 3, on federalism etc etc, which "bloated" (lol) it appropriately. But I then decided it wasn't necessary. Quite forgot your aversion to 1 sentence paras. We could strike it altogether... I can't see how we could put it in 4. Although sentence 1 in para 4 can easily become sentence two in para 3, thereby solving your problem. Hmm. The more I think of it, the nicer it sounds.

4. If we move the first sentence here to para 3, we could end with your old closer. Neuroscientist | T | C

WotD
quoi? FuelWagon 05:05, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * , . Neuroscientist | T | C 06:45, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Terri Schiavo
Bickering with the likes of Gordon Watts just takes up too much time. I caution you not to allow the heat of the moment get the better of you and break the 3RR. Others will support you. It's perfectly okay to message or email users who you feel will support your edits. Just don't put yourself in the wrong. It makes "breaking the rules" the issue rather than the correctness or otherwise of the respective edits. Grace Note 03:50, 11 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi Duck, thanks for your note. I didn't entirely follow Gordon's explanation, but from what I can see, there was no technical violation of 3RR, though Gordon feels there was a violation in spirit. I wouldn't block you anyway without a warning, so consider yourself warned. Try to seek consensus on the talk page, or involve other editors. As this dispute has been going on a long time, you might also consider formal or informal mediation. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 04:17, July 11, 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay, sorry, I see you've already set up mediation. Good luck with it. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:31, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Ghost
Duck, whither goest ghost? He ok? ~ Neuroscientist  |  T  |  C  → 14:24, July 11, 2005 (UTC)