User talk:Durova/Archive 34

IP addresses
Where in the world did you get this idea: ? I'm currently under the impression that it's the exact opposite; after all, it is just a discussion. The Evil Spartan 15:58, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If I'm mistaken on the principle I'll withdraw the assertion. It's been quite some time since I was a regular at WP:AFD and process has become a lot more complex in the interim.  The bottom line in this particular instance (which I can dredge up from recent ANI archives if necessary) was that I made that post while I was doing an investigation for which I later blocked a sockfarm.  It was a rudimentary form of the the JB196 methodology applied to biographies of gay male porn stars: gut the citations, tag the pages mercilessly, add some egregious BLP violations, and then have several socks howl for deletion.  Due to the subject matter hardly any regular Wikipedians had been paying attention, but the vandal had been active for several months.  Durova Charge! 04:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * For the idly curious, it appears that current policy is that IP addresses can vote but their vote can also be ignored. Articles_for_deletion Franamax 17:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * And this was precisely the sort of situation where the IP contributions ought to be ignored. Durova Charge! 02:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Could you give me a piece of advice?
Could you give me a piece of advice, please? Let me tell the story.

1. Some time ago, I had a content disagreement with User:Commodore Sloat who deleted a relevant and referenced view of Yossef Bodansky and other sources he did not like    from article Operation Sarindar. This text is still deleted and the article is in terrible shape.

2. Besides that article, we had little interaction. I tried once to edit article Criticism of Bill O'Reilly, but csloat warned me that he will accuse me of wikistaling if I continue:, so I was afraid of editing this article. Next time, I tried to restore a more neutral version of article The Intelligence Summit (it is linked to Operation Sarindar), and this time csloat reported me as a "wikistalker" to WP:ANI:. Administrators decided that his accusation was bogus.

3. When I made a comment in RfC of csloat (you know about it), he came uninvited to my talk page with a variety of personal accusations:. I asked him several times to stop, but he refused. He stopped only after intervention of an administrator:.

4. Csloat had constant arguments with Armon, but Armon is not active for more for two weeks. Now, when Armone is gone, Csloat came to edit an article that I am currently working with. He never edited this article before. Csloat is making massive deletions of relevant and perfectly sourced text . Of course I object:, but he continue reverting the sourced text:. Please note how he modified my comments at the talk page

He blames me of WP:SYN. But I only cited work "Communism and terrorism" by Karl Kautsky in the article "Communist terrorism", and used other similar scholarly sources. What kind of WP:SYN is that? Finally, he nominated this article for AfD, exactly as he did previously twice with article Operation Sarindar.

So what do you recommend? May be I am wrong here? Well, I do have certain bias as everyone else, but I work hard to cite most reliable sources... and I am very frustrated when someone blindly deletes this work, instead of adding more alternative sources/content, as I always suggest.Biophys 20:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The alteration of the talk page comment is a clear violation of WP:CIVIL and it happened recently enough to take action. I've blocked for 24 hours.  Really recommend arbitration on the overall dispute.  Durova Charge! 20:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I will think about your recommendation.Biophys 21:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

In re Nashville School of Law
I saw where a temporary hold was placed on the article. Much appreciated... I think that was reasonable under the circumstances, and I will support that. My only concern at the moment is that regardless of whether the underlying problem is characterized as vandalism or merely as a content disagreement,* we're dealing with an anonymous IP user who refuses to hash out differences either on the article's discussion page or on my page. Additionally, what IP did--and I don't mean to belabor this--was not only to back out all my edits, but also to outright delete an entire section that was written by a third person. So, really, there are two issues: The content disagreement as to my own edits...but I still think the section deletion might qualify as vandalism.

(* Bear in mind this user was warned by other admins for vandalism due to similar edits made in the past.)

Thanks again, Witzlaw 04:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * One reason why this is difficult to administrate is that the article is short on referencing. These problems usually resolve themselves when more citations are added.  If the IP editor continues to blank material that's properly referenced then you could notify sysops at the WP:AIV board and get a swift response.  Best wishes,  Durova Charge! 04:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Point is well taken, I agree that it is short on references; additionally, the section that IP removed, "Accreditaton and bar passage data," has no cites at all. I'll take a look at that and see what I can find.  But I personally added 6 of the 9 cites the article now has (and corrected a seventh), and when IP performed his edits, he removed three of them (and backed out the correction).


 * I propose to watch and see what IP does once the freeze is lifted. I tend to think he'll simply revert again, as he did before.  At that point, a possible strategy might be to reinsert edits piecemeal (with cites), rather than simply revert, and see just what he backs out.  Would that be a reasonable approach?  Thanks again, Witzlaw 15:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Very reasonable. That approach makes the situation very clear to third parties and much easier to remedy.  Don't be shy about reporting the deletion of referenced material as vandalism.  Just remain polite and patient and keep making the page a better article.  Best regards,  Durova Charge! 16:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Your contributions to Raul's laws
How true! Thanks Egfrank 15:25, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much. :) Durova Charge! 15:55, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Regarding your comment to the WhiteCat/NedScott RfArb
I nearly wet myself laughing at the discussion of lame pages you linked to. --Rocksanddirt 17:20, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Milestone
I now have over 5,000 edits!! :) Thanks for allowing me to "return"! :)  Things seem better this time around:, ,  and. Sincerely, -- Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 17:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Good going. :) Durova Charge! 23:36, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Merci! :) Sincerement, --  Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 01:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Disruptive Editor
I'm not sure exactly where the best place is to report this, but User:Chrisjnelson is up to some personal attacks again today. I only bring this up to you, because I know that you dealt with him before. Frankly, i'm just sick of his disruptive antics. Bjewiki 02:53, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

From earlier tonight:








 * What the hell? First of all, those second two are not person attacks. Secondly, Ksy92003 was causing problems at that talk page, driving the discussion off-topic with personal attacks. We were trying to have a civil discussion, and after Pats1 made an argument that convinced me to change my opinion, Ksy92003 started calling me untrustworthy and a liar. He continued to go on and on and still maintains he's done nothing wrong there. I don't think he needs to be reprimanded or anything and I wouldn't go anywhere to report him, but my point is he's the one at fault there.► Chris Nelson Holla! 03:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Chris - As far as I can see in that conversation, Ksy92003 disagreed with you, but you were the one who sunk to personal attacks like "Are you F&*$ing Blind", "grow up", and something involving pubes. Actually, i'm not sure which of WP:NPA or WP:CIVIL they violate, but it's one of the other. Bjewiki 03:08, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Ksy most certainly derailed the entire discussion and provoked the flamefest it is right now with his completely unnecessary and unprovoked "Chris is a liar..." comment.  Pats 1  T / C  03:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, the proper place to report this kind of thing is Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement. The diffs certainly were uncivil and tu quoque is not a defense. I'll give this a very brief 24 hour block with the caveat that I may refuse to act in the future. My user talk page is not the site's complaints department. To Chris, I'm going easy this time, but bear in mind the arbitration decision states you may be blocked for a month after five blocks accrue. One down, four to go. Please don't continue the count. Durova Charge! 03:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that, just wasn't sure where the correct place was. Won't happen again. Bjewiki 09:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As an observer to this all, I think it's a little ridiculous that Chris gets a block and Ksy92003 gets none. This isn't the first time at all the two have butted heads. Ksy92003 was no stranger to both the jmfangio incidents and the later incident I believe occurred on this talk page. Ksy92003 has even taken up asking Chris if he "could monitor Chris' edits in case he should break his arbitration." It wouldn't surprise me if he made an attempt to provoke Chris into doing just that. The discussion at Talk:2007 New England Patriots season was entirely on-topic and productive for the first 3 comments, at least. And then, only because Chris stated an opinion in the talk differently from his stance in the initial edit conflict, Ksy92003 posted this as part of his response: "You are completely untrustworthy because you always lie" Ksy92003 Revision as of 21:37, 30 September 2007. I can't see at all how this comment is appropriate to this discussion. I can't see at all how Ksy92003 wasn't planning on provoking Chris (he's seen it happen before). I can't see at all how this is maintaining a civil discussion on the subject matter. Should Chris had responded to this personal attack (if you call what Chris said uncivil and PAs, then you have to say the same with Ksy92003)? Of course not. But it was in defense to an attack on is character, not an unprovoked attack on Chris' part.  Pats 1  T / C  11:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The reason is rather simple: no diffs were provided of anyone's behavior other than Chris's at the time when I responded. Please bring your evidence to WP:ANI.  Durova Charge! 14:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll do so. But I find it interesting that you didn't hesitate to read the diffs and block ChrisJNelson but refuse to do so now.  Pats 1  T / C  20:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I had already made repeated efforts to direct these grievances away from my user space (see another thread above) and explicitly stated that I may refuse to respond again. This statement was made without prejudice toward either side.  Durova Charge! 04:50, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

See: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents Discussion (FYI-explict link, Fra nkB 02:43, 3 October 2007 (UTC))

Moreover
Hi! Haven't seen you for a while, but my bad--I've been off in RL--don't think we've EVER interacted outside Xfd spaces. Hope you don't mind the above note, but that {ANI-notice} template is pretty weird acting! I added the link since it took a while for me to find that ANI section, and only succeeded when I finally decided to search your user name. The template wouldn't let me edit the section (I suspect it's supposed to be subst'd--I'll ask CBD to check into that.), and the edit link button starts editing the template itself. That seems to be a Bad thing sort of effect. Not to mention, it's apparently not updating argument } properly when whatever is generating it is, adding it here. That shoulda gave the link I added from a quick look at what I didn't want to edit! 

I only happened by as I was about to drop a question on Pats1 since I just recently began editing NE Patriots articles, saw the 'ruckess', and wandered over. So it's a good heads up (for me) to know a few of these guys have a "history" together. I'll see what I can do to keep a lid on things. Cheers! // Fra nkB 02:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As far as I know we haven't. And I don't mind the note at all, thanks.  Out of curiosity, which XFDs were these?  Durova Charge! 16:11, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Global warming
Sorry to bother you with this, but Global warming has taken a turn for the worse lately. You have taken an interest in the goings-on around that article from time to time. If you'd rather not get mired in it (which I could perfectly understand), would you be able to refer me to another neutral admin who could provide a voice of sanity? Thanks - Raymond Arritt 04:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I've floated the idea before about trying some kind of community based article probation. Would you be interested in pursuing that?  Otherwise a request at WP:AN would be the most likely avenue.  Durova Charge! 04:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Advice
posted a note to my talk page threatening to take me to ArbCom if I don't stop removing violations of WP:SYN on two articles. I feel that his threat is out of line. All users should work to avoid original research on the encyclopedia, and I think it is inappropriate for him to ask me to "look the other way" while he creates articles in violation of Wikipedia policies. I have every intention of editing constructively and being cooperative, but I don't think Wikipedia policies on original research are meant to be bargaining chips.

Do you think I am being unreasonable here? I have to be honest and admit that my interactions with certain users on Wikipedia over the past few months have been extremely discouraging, and I have been on the verge of abandoning my participation in the project completely. I certainly have no wish to spend the next several months collecting evidence in a pissing match against Biophys (even though I think it's pretty clear and obvious that his violations of WP:SYN are severe and that my deletions of those violations are justified). The truth is, if editors here generally feel I do nothing to improve the encyclopedia then I don't think I should be here at all. I believe you have played fair with me as an admin even when I didn't agree with your decisions, so I'm asking you for advice -- how should I be responding to the kind of threat that Biophys is making on my talk page? Obviously I should try to be civil, but should I accept his offer and ignore the pages in question? Should I start the arbcom proceedings myself? Aren't there other ways of resolving the disputes on the two pages in question? Or do you think that the Wikipedia project in general would be better off without me? csloat 19:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sometimes I've walked away from pages because I didn't want to press things into arbitration. Polite distance and patience can be very useful.  Other times I've stood firm, come what may.  I've sent disputes to arbitration that had far fewer attempts at dispute resolution than your situation.  Really, although arbitration is slow and painful, it's also swifter and less uncomfortable than letting some bad situations fester.  I really recommend you consider it seriously.  Durova Charge! 04:47, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Kindness
I normally don't do this, but I see that you no matter who asks you, you're always willing to lend a helping hand. Thank you very much! Durova Charge! 04:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

An idle curiosity
While working, ironically, on the American wine article I came across your posting on seachengine land. Your posting is certainly an intriguing idea but out of idle curiosity, why did you decide to hone in on Wikipedia's wine articles as your examples for this piece? AgneCheese/Wine 00:47, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I decided to focus on a single topic and looked for material that would make a good set of examples. Started out with automobiles, segued to tires, and six degrees of Wikipedia later I got to wine.  It didn't really take that long to settle on the topic.  It actually provided more material than I had space to use.


 * The Korbel Champagne Cellars of Sonoma County, California are located on the site of a former old growth redwood forest and have a reproduction of a historic building from Prague. Images of either could generate traffic to their websites from other encyclopedic topics.


 * The Plan Bordeaux, which aims to remedy an economic crisis in France viticulture, doesn't have an image for any one of the over 1000 winemakers it represents. The article also doesn't exist in French.  Not surprisingly, sources describe the program as spectacularly ineffective.


 * Cheers, Durova Charge! 04:39, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Durova - please contact me - Ronz is out of control
Durova: Per an earlier note I emailed you on but got no response via email or via myTalk page, I am asking that you check out the myTalk page for author/editor Ronz who (while perhaps in a noble effort to keep content vetted) has himself actually made matters worse on a number of topics he has no editorial expertise on (and hence should defer/recommend or solicit others to join in on) and/or has actually made changes that make entrees more partisian

Check out Knowledge Management software as being one - is it odd that after three requests of him he has not removed NetSuite and/or has left the companies listed in the body instead of relying on the external link (which by the way having a link to Lockheed (and allowing that) is clearly an omission he has enforced on others.

Durova, this is not a sarcastic/angry email, rather one out of concern. Again, read his myTalk page and you will see Ronz himself is guilty of many of the areas he feels he is defending against.

Respectfully

Topiarydan Dan Schramm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Topiarydan (talk • contribs) 03:13, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I apologize for being tardy. Have you tried a request for comment or a third opinion on the topics?  Knowledge management software really isn't a topic where I claim expertise.  Durova Charge! 04:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Inquiry on Editing the Victory Christian Fellowship Page
Dear Administrator,

I have been a contributor for the Victory Christian Fellowship page. When Every Nation entry underwent mediation, the Victory Christian Fellowship page was also included in the process (as Victory is affiliated with Every Nation and they were facing the same issues on editing). I understand that when a page is under mediation, no one is suppose to alter it while an agreement is not reached.

I haven't been active with Wikipedia for a time because of work concerns but I have found a published material about Victory Christian Fellowship that is worth posting as a reputable source. Will I be allowed to do this now? Is mediation finished for this page?

Please let me know. I will put my posts on hold until I get permission from you. I would like to do this according to proper Wikipedia procedures.

Thank you very much for your time and advice.

Blessings,

Chickywiki —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chickywiki (talk • contribs) 09:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Your questions would be better directed to the mediator who handled that. Durova Charge! 14:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

wiki SEO abuse
Ok - today I was in the midst of some SEO adventures, and have noticed a website that has been abusing wiki - at least I would call it abuse.

I went through their inlinks with yahoo site explorer and changed as many of their meddlings back to what they should have been. But I don't have the time to do it all - and would like to try to prevent this from happening again.

If you could help at all - I, and the other people in our search category would greatly appreciate it.

here is a link to their backlinks, so you can see what they were doing. http://siteexplorer.search.yahoo.com/advsearch?ei=UTF-8&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.actionprintinginc.com

there were a few blatantly missrepresented links, and a few from wiki europe I believe.

Thank you, again.

wiki SEO abuse
Ok - today I was in the midst of some SEO adventures, and have noticed a website that has been abusing wiki - at least I would call it abuse.

I went through their inlinks with yahoo site explorer and changed as many of their meddlings back to what they should have been. But I don't have the time to do it all - and would like to try to prevent this from happening again.

If you could help at all - I, and the other people in our search category would greatly appreciate it.

here is a link to their backlinks, so you can see what they were doing. http://siteexplorer.search.yahoo.com/advsearch?ei=UTF-8&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.actionprintinginc.com

there were a few blatantly missrepresented links, and a few from wiki europe I believe.

Thank you, again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matusz13 (talk • contribs) 14:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi, for best results, please report cases like this at WP:COIN. Wikipedia has a special page called linksearch that you can use to quickly identify all pages that link to a particular domain.  - Jehochman  Talk 14:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

AN/I // CSN archiving ideas
If (when, relaly) the CSN is shut down and its operations folded into AN/I again, I was hoping that we can set it up that any ban archiving represents a duplication of the report, which ideally would still go into the AN/I archives, keeping AN/I holistic and intact, and allowing us to, if needed, group multiple threads regarding a ban into one section in the Ban archives, possibly (probably) identifying sections by user, not original AN/I thread titles? or is all of this so patently obvious that I'm wasting time typing it? ThuranX 05:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Multiple issues here.
 * Ban discussions were randomly distributed between WP:AN and WP:ANI. I expect that pattern to resume if CSN goes.
 * CSN existed to discuss a range of options, not just bans. When community sanctions are successful they ought to reduce both editor burnout and the need for sitebanning.  An exclusive focus on sitebans (to the extent of linguistically confusing all bans with sitebans) is a substantial part of the problem CSN sought to remedy.
 * All community sanction discussions merit archiving. The experimental and unsuccessful ones can be as informative as the ones that concluded in a remedy.
 * I've been approaching this with regard to anticipated site growth over the next three to five years. Scalability is essential.  Over that time frame I doubt the administrative boards can continue to handle this flow.  What will be essential is to have a stable database of what sanctions exist (for active reference) and what proposed sanctions didn't succeed (for statistical research and occasional citation in later particular DRs).  Do you get what I'm driving at?  Durova Charge! 05:57, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps an archiveal template specifically for such discussions which is recognised by a bot and automatically placed into a dedicated archive? Viridae Talk 05:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That'd make sense. Durova Charge! 06:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

CSN discussion
Hi there Durova, I believe there was a discussion going on a week or two ago about limiting the input in CSN debates of people who are personally involved in the case. Unfortunately I don't seem to be able to locate the thread now. I wonder if you can tell me if this debate still going on. Did it have an outcome, and where might I be able to read it? Gatoclass 03:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, here's the most recent discussion: Wikipedia_talk:Banning_policy.  Actually that limitation used to be in force for half a year and got dismantled last spring.  It was a key provision of the original consensus that got the disruptive editing proposal promoted to guideline status.  Here's a report I wrote up during last spring's debate when a new group of people challenged the previous consensus: Wikipedia_talk:Disruptive_editing.


 * The change got enacted because some editors had a legitimate but IMHO minor concern. They implemented a very bad tradeoff.  Here's what went on: some disruptive editors try to game the blocking policy by claiming any sysop who gets in their way should be disqualified as an involved party.  Some editors get away with that once or twice before everyone else agrees they're being absurd.  The group of editors who removed the involvement clause from the guideline didn't want more of that game.  Unfortunately the new language opened the door to a much more destructive game: sanctions discussions where little clans of POV warriors dig trenches and fire rounds at each other.  It makes no difference at all what board the discussions occur on: back under the original guideline we could step in and tell the partisans to step back and give evidence.  The actual decision would rest in uninvolved parties' hands.  That solution worked quite well.  After the change some discussions nearly became a free-for-all.  One editor who was up for a topic ban canvassed half a dozen potential supporters until I stepped in and indeffed him.  Because of that guideline change I've brought three other cases to arbitration and in all three of those at least one side of the dispute got hopping mad at me for intervening.  I've been trolled offsite as a result.  That's the real problem here.


 * I've been hands on with this stuff for a year so my comments may make dense reading. You're very welcome to ask follow-up questions if some of this is unclear.  Durova Charge! 06:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry to take so long to get back to you on this issue. I read through most of the threads you provided and the issues seem somewhat more complex that I originally thought. There also appeared to be multiple issues raised which I didn't really understand and probably couldn't without reading through lots of old discussions.


 * But purely in regards to the issue of "uninvolved users", my first thought would be that "involved" should not be applied to admins who have blocked or had other interactions with the erstwhile offender. Admins are people who have been elevated to positions of responsibility because they have a record of exercising good judgement, and I think therefore that they are entitled - lacking concrete evidence to the contrary - to be trusted with those responsibilities, and for it to be assumed that they have employed their admin tools impartially and for the good of the community.


 * To me, an "involved" user would be one who has been involved in content disputes with the alleged disrupter, or who has shown a strong or steady interest in the subject matter in question. So for example, if the allegedly disruptive editor is editing on the Arab-Israeli conflict, any editor who has shown an abiding interest in that particular subject on either side of the fence should be regarded as "involved".


 * There is a third category which I am not sure how to handle, which is the phenomenon of "wikifriends", where you have a number of buddies who may not be interested in the same areas of content at all, but who nevertheless stick together in such a way as to form a sort of party or "block" of votes. That is another potential problem I think, but it might be rather impractical to try and police and in any case it is probably much less of a problem that the previous category.


 * So that's more or less how I'm inclined to see things at this stage. Regards, Gatoclass 09:53, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi!
I don't know what it is, but I'm interested in being coached by an admin (Admin coaching?). I'm more experienced, but I'd like a little bit of a polish so I can move higher up the ranks later on. You mentioned at the Requests for Adminship RfC that's you're looking for new people to coach, so I thoguht I'd drop you a line. Thanks for your time. :) Cheers, Spawn Man 08:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * More experienced is an understatement! I'm flattered by the request.  First, a slight correction: adminship isn't a higher rank than anybody else.  Sysops just get a few extra tools and do cleanup.  The particular kind of cleanup I do is complex investigations and dispute resolutions.  It's something like reading mystery novels but with real world results for solving the puzzle.  If that sounds interesting to you then have a look at WP:COIN or WP:SSP.  Nine times out of ten the solution is obvious, but there's no telling how deep a particular rabbit hole may go.  I'll be glad to offer investigative tips via e-mail or gmail chat.  Cheers,  Durova Charge! 08:32, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Erm, was that a yes or a no lol? Also, I don't have g-mail and my email is shared, so that could be problem? Thanks, Spawn Man 08:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC). P.S. "More experienced" - No, not really an understatement, but I'm flattered. :)
 * Sorry, just saw your edit summary . So where do I start - I've never been involved in this sort of thing, so I don't know how to begin. I suppose you'll coach me in that though eh? :) Spawn Man 08:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure thing. I don't suppose any banned editors or sneaky vandals share access to your e-mail. :)  Durova Charge! 08:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There was an incident with my brother when he was staying at my house (see here) and he managed to cause some trouble, but no, no vandals. (Thought I'd be honest...) So where should I talk to you; via email (Preferably not...), my talk page (Preferable for me anyway...) or your talk page? I don't want to be a hassle. Cheers, Spawn Man 08:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * For the most part, sure. Particular questions about investigative methods are better offsite.  Durova Charge! 09:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Awesome. Okay, I'm ready when you are. :) Spawn Man 10:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, if you'd like to talk here then tell me what you'd like to do with the tools. And explain a little bit about those old conflicts you've been putting behind you.  A couple of old blocks don't necessarily stop you from getting mopified; I'm more concened about how the trolling intensifies after an editor gets sysopped.  Durova Charge! 17:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As per my email, I'll set up a user talk subpage here, so we can talk there without too much publicity etc. :) Cheers, Spawn Man 02:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Admin coaching
Could you please admin coach me? I have 1,366 edits and my edit summary usage is 100% on both major and minor edits. Anyways, I was wondering, at least, if I am close to admin status? jonathan (talk — contribs) 17:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd be glad to coach. Actually what matters more to me is that you'd want it for the right reasons.  Tell me what makes you tick. :)  Durova Charge! 17:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Vandals, and completely useless pages make me tick. Oh yeah, where do we start? jonathan (talk — contribs) 18:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, have you spent much time at WP:AIV and WP:AFD then? Also tell me a little about your article space work and any objections that might arise to a candidacy.  Have you gotten into conflicts with other editors?
 * I've spent a large amount of time at AFD but I can't do anything right on AIV. I I mainly contribute to Nickelodeon-related articles, but the vandalism reverting space I do is huge. I have gotten into a conflict, on Fascism, where a user kept on blanking sections, and I got to three reverts (WP:3RR). Then the situation got into the hands of other editors. I also do NP patrol, and RC patrol with VandalFighter. Anyways, is that what you needed? jonathan (talk — contribs) 22:59, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, before you get anywhere near the 3RR limit on a page again I'd strongly recommend dispute resolution. I'm a big believer in article content WP:RFC to de-escalate a potential edit war.  Fresh perspectives and new opinions often resolve the situation while letting all participants save face.  Another thing I like to see from my coaching students is at least one WP:GA.  That hands-on experience helps a lot in the long run, often in subtle ways.  Durova Charge! 00:25, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I will be willing to take up to two candidates and coach them. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:26, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Great! :) Durova Charge! 23:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Please comment
Your input would be appreciated: Requests for arbitration ScienceApologist 21:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what input you're expecting. I haven't had much to do with this dispute or its attempted resolution.  The request is flattering but I'm uncertain what to make of it.  Durova Charge! 23:02, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Admin question
Since there are a couple discussions above about Admin coaching, I'd like to ask you for your opinion on one question. Several times recently (over the summer) I have thought about possibly trying to become an Admin. While I don't have plans for that right now, I was just curious: because of the conflicts I've been in recently with guys like Chris and Jmfangio, how much time do you think I'd have to wait before having the best chance for a successful RfA? This would give me some assistance as to how long I'd need to clean up my image (relationships with other users) before I'd even be considered, since one of the first questions is "How have you resolved conflicts between you and other users in the past" or something like that, and I'd just like to know how long I should expect to wait before I can... well, not completely forget about those conflicts, but to have them not taken into consideration that much when reviewing the RfA.

In other words, what are the steps I need to take in order to have a legitimate shot at an RfA in the future? Ksy92003 (talk)  00:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I prefer to think of this in terms of whether someone wants adminship for the right reasons and whether they're cut out for it. The strange way that ArbCom proceeded is a vindication for most of the other people who were involved in it.  It's not so much getting into conflicts that's an issue - I spent my first half year as an editor in near-constant dispute resolution with one disruptive editor who eventually got banned as a vandal and another disruptive editor who eventually quit the project - it's how you conducted yourself, whether you sought resolutions in appropriate ways, and whether you created positive outcomes as a result.  Go help raise one of those pages to GA and keep in touch.  Maybe this is the Zen approach, but just doing the right thing generally leads toward adminship.  Best wishes,  Durova Charge! 07:12, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

One more time...
Sorry to come back here... not sure if I'll ever be able to stop. It's like an addiction. Anyway, on Friday there was actually something that I didn't catch about the Chris situation. Fortunately, did. She left a comment about a violation of Chris' restriction at Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement, but more than two days have past and there has yet to be a response. So, I'm coming here just to make sure this gets somebody's attention.

On Template:New England Patriots roster, he reverted twice within 13 hours. Here is the first revert:. Here is the second revert:. The first revert was a revert of 151.204.244.201 and the second was a revert of Swainstonation. Again, this all stems from Requests for arbitration/Jmfangio-Chrisjnelson which prohibits Chris from reverting a page twice in a week's span. Ksy92003 (talk)  04:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * He's right, although I can't say I care for the fact that Ksy92003 seems hellbent on getting me in trouble for anything. "Like an addiction" is right. Anyway, yeah, I made a mistake because it's really hard to remember what I've reverted. Guess I deserve a block.► Chris Nelson Holla! 04:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not hellbent on getting you in trouble, but I'm still going to report you if I see you do something wrong, and you admit you did. If I did something wrong, you wouldn't think twice before reporting me, would you?  It's not my fault you continue to break the rules, and it's not my fault that I report you.  I'm doing my job by keeping order by not letting people who break rules go scot free.


 * As far as this situation goes, I didn't even recognize it until after Sasha Callahan pointed it out two days earlier. Ksy92003  (talk)  05:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi There...
Per this comment on my talk page, I would like to make you aware of this report on Chrisjnelson. The quick version of it is that Chris reverted twice within a week, violating an arbcom ruling. As a disclaimer, I was involved in the dispute with Chris, but didn't get involved until after his reversions. Thanks.  Sasha Callahan   04:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hehe I kinda already told hin :) Sorry to make you go through the trouble, but I think it's also good that you commented here, as you were the one to notice it.  I went through with it because I thought that you had gotten off for the night and wanted to get it done ASAP.  Ksy92003  (talk)  04:53, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I did sign off for the night, but I couldn't sleep so I came back.   Sasha Callahan   04:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, no harm, no foul. I was still up because, unlike everybody else I know, I'm on the West Coast and it's only 10:00 here, unlike where you, Chris, and Soxrock all live, where it's 1:00 AM.  As long as the job is done, it doesn't matter who does it.  Ksy92003  (talk)  05:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I've posted a request on WP:ANI for independent review and action. Durova Charge! 07:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I assumed you were gonna return later, so I stayed to check if you would reply to these messages.  Now that this has been taken care of, I can go to sleep.  I'll come in the morning to see how the situation develops over the night.  Good day.  Ksy92003  (talk)  07:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * In response to your edit comment I'm tempted to wrap myself in a black cape with a red lining, fake a Romanian accent, and reach for some dental floss while replying Good eeeveening. Durova Charge! 10:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm back, and somehow, Chris wasn't blocked at all first. Two admins were going for it at the same time, and the first one to get through didn't block him. The second one was going to, but the first had already acted. To be perfectly honest, I'm shocked that he wasn't blocked. I mean it's quite clear he violated the restriction, and he admitted it himself here, so I'm completely shocked. Sorry, the discussions led me to believe that there wasn't a block, but in an e-mail, Chris told me that he was, and I just verified. Sorry. Ksy92003 (talk)  13:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Imperial triple crown
Hey, how's it going. I'm applying for an Imperial triple crown Teemu08 05:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * DYK: Loose Fur, Sky Blue Sky
 * GA: Anodyne (album), Kicking Television: Live in Chicago
 * FC: Uncle Tupelo, Wilco
 * Your Imperial Majesty, consider it done. :) Durova Charge! 06:53, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XIX (September 2007)
The September 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

Delivered by grafikbot 09:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you....
...for the lovely barnstar. Doing the right thing is hard! But I'm hoping that everyone is ok, and I'm certainly prepared should such a situation arise again, on or off wiki. All the best, ~ Eliz 81 (C)  01:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Good for you. The barnstar was well earned.  Durova Charge! 01:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Complex investigations discussion
Hi there. I've just left a post at User talk:Charles Matthews about complex investigations. It's hidden away in this post. I mentioned you there, so I thought I'd invite you over to comment. Do you keep records of all the investigations you undertake? Carcharoth 15:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Admin coaching?
Erm, wondering if you'd forgotten about lil' ol' me. It's okay if you don't feel I need coaching or don't want to give it to me (Or if you were too busy lol!). :) Anyway, just checking. Cheers, Spawn Man 02:52, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Not a problem. I usually leave it up to the coachees to check in from time to time.  Am calling it an early evening tonight, but let's have a look at how you're doing.  E-mail or here, your preference. :)  Durova Charge! 02:55, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

?? Erm, I thought you were my coach? And I'm not aware we've started yet, so I don't know how you could check how I'm doing - unless you're recording me secretly.... ;) Cheers, Spawn Man 04:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What I mean is that if an coachee is operating well on their own or no longer interested, I don't corner them in a dark alley. Just drop me a line when you feel like some coaching.  I'm not going to blow a whistle every evening and make you run three laps around the track. :)  Durova Charge! 05:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh - I thought you said "coaches" above, but you said "coachees", meaning me. Sorry lol. And yeah, sure I'd love some coaching - I do need to run a few laps every once in a while. :) Spawn Man 06:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Erm, that was code for "can we please start pleeeease?" ;) Spawn Man 01:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, first drop and give me twenty. ;) Then tell me where you'd like pointers: mainspace, moplike chores, or something else?  If you haven't got anything hot cooking then a helping hand at WP:COIN is always welcome. :)  Durova Charge! 01:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Enlighten me in your ways master! ;) Erm, maybe something about CSD & PRODs, the admin noticeboards and stuff like that? I don't think I need assistance with anything mainspacey, but anything for moppy stuff would be great! :) Spawn Man 02:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Heh, I'm the wrong sysop to ask about CSD & PROD. Vandalism patrol, sure.  Most of my effort goes into dispute resolution and wikisleuthing.  I leap into rabbit holes and bring my spelunking flashlight to see how deep they go. :)  Durova Charge! 02:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Argh! Well do you know any other coaches who are just general admin coaches? It'd be a great help... Spawn Man 02:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hm...have you checked the list of admin coaching volunteers? Durova Charge! 03:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There's a list? Spawn Man 03:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Admin_coaching/Volunteers. Durova Charge! 03:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well then, thanks a bunch for your teachings so far wise one, but I guess this is where we part. I've put in a request and hopefully someone as great as you will enlighten me master. Sayonara. ;) Cheers, Spawn Man 04:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool beans. I'm not the right coach for everyone.  Look me up if you feel like some wikisleuthing. :)  Durova Charge! 04:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Biographical sources
Hello. Some time ago you gave some helpful advice on the WP:BLP of Myron Evans. Consensus decided that this should be reduced to a biographical stub and the exact form of this was agreed by the editors at the time. Now it seems that a new sanitization spree has started. The following cautious statement has been challenged "Evans appears to have no current academic affiliation within the UK", again a formulation agreed on by consensus. There is in fact no need for caution as there is a complete listing of all UK universities and colleges, so that - albeit laboriously - the statement can be verified. (The process can be speeded up by knowing that Evans lives near Swansea.) Now an editor User:LinguisticDemographer, from Wales with a knowledge of chemistry, has said that this cautious statement is actually innuendo and potentially libellous. He has also implied that university websites are not acceptable as sources for such statements. I find that his WP:Wikilawyering is suspicious and that he is pushing a WP:POV. I suspect he has a WP:COI: he might in fact be a meatpuppet of Myron Evans. It seems Evans can no longer publish his work in recognized peer-reviewed journals; at the same time this editor is suggesting that only the affiliation appearing on such a paper is a valid source for WP. Self-published books by Evans on www.amazon.com list no UK affiliation. I cannot understand why a verifiable and innocuous statement of this kind has been challenged. Please could you give your advice? Thanks, Mathsci 03:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Going through all the university web sites in the UK seems roundabout, and the sites may not be up to date anyway. Why not just state that his resume, available at www.aias.us, does not show a current affiliation with any university? Use of his own web site can be tolerated in a biographical article, for this kind of info, and he can't libel himself.  EdJohnston 04:52, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Ed's solution sounds pretty good. Durova Charge! 05:22, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately not. Like his science, Evans' version of events on his blog is completely unverifiable and possibly false. Thus, although some details may be correct, his blog cannot be used as a WP source. Otherwise we would have to remove the page on the standard model and also the WP:BLP page on 't Hooft, because, according to Evans, he is a fraud. On his blog Evans currrently claims to be a Junior Research Fellow at Wolfson College and a fellow of two other UK universities: he once held a temporary position at Wolfson College but those times have passed and now in fact he can only refer to himself as a former junior research felllow; the other fellowships do not even exist. Problems of this kind will recur as long as fringe pseudoscience is allowed a place on WP. --Mathsci 20:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * According to WP:RS, a self-published source such as a blog may be used in the biography article about its author. These aren't vetted and of course sometimes they are false, but a blog is verifiably Evans's version of things.  So I suggest juxtaposing two self-published sources: his blog and his resume.  Readers may draw their own conclusions.  Durova Charge! 01:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Jane Austen
Dear Durova, just to give you a heads up, I made a number of edits to the Jane Austen article today:, , , , , ,. I hope that's a good start. Best, -- Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 18:08, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * A very good start! And on an important subject who deserves a much better article.  Keep up the good work. :)  Durova Charge! 01:42, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool, thanks! :) Sincerely, --  Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 01:50, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Request for comment
Because of concerns over how I acted in semi-protecting the William Shakespeare article, I have opened a discussion on my use of my admin powers at User_talk:Alabamaboy. Based on how the comments go, I am prepared to give up my admin powers or accept other sanctions.

Since I've always admired and been impressed by your admin-related work, I'd appreciate it if you would consider looking at the situation and commenting. Part of me thinks I should give up the admin bit anyway since I enjoy creating articles more. Be nice to have time to create another FA or good article.--Alabamaboy 01:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Golly, I'm honored by the request. I'll give it a look very soon.  My first impression on reading this post is opening an RFC on yourself shows a capacity for introspection and an openness to feedback that I very much like to see in administrators.  None of us are perfect.  The principal question often is whether we learn from our mistakes.  Durova Charge! 01:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I second. I may not be an admin, but I do watch and learn -- it's not every day that I get a chance for admiration. 216.228.182.112 09:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

CSN
I don't know where the discussion is taking place, but I wanted to suggest that a way to ensure community sanctions and bans discussions get archived properly would be to tag them with a template (even an invisible one) that the bot would recognise. I'm sure it's already been suggested, it's a no-brainer, but I thought I'd offer it up anyway. Cheers! Anchoress 10:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds great. Is someone writing that template?  Durova Charge! 14:00, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I... don't know, tee hee. Quick archiving, woot! IS there a discussion taking place somewhere about this issue? If so, please direct me and I'll go there and make the suggestion. Anchoress