User talk:DustyRam

May 2016
Hello, I'm FoCuSandLeArN. I noticed that you recently removed some content from AFC Croydon Athletic with this edit, without providing a reliable source. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks. FoCuS contribs ;  talk to me!  13:40, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Player squad
Hello DustyRam. Please don't add a current squad to the AFC Croydon Athletic article. I've been editing non-League articles for a decade now, and I can tell you from experience that it's completely pointless – new editors come along and add it, promising to keep it updated and then disappear never to be seen again. I've recently removed squads that hadn't been updated since 2013 or 2014.

Also, can you please provide a source for the managerial records table. If you're unable to do so then I'm afraid it's going to be deleted as unsourced.

I appreciate this may seem annoying, but editing is a learning process, and there are usually reasons why things are done a certain way (i.e. not having squads for clubs below the Conference). If you have any questions about editing Wikipedia, I'm more than happy to help.

As an aside, I'm a bit of a groundhopper and have you on my to-do list this season. Hopefully I'll have a decent camera by then and be able to add a good picture of your ground to the article. Cheers, Number   5  7  22:07, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, do you really have more goalkeeping coaches than first team coaches?? Number   5  7  22:08, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Hello Number 57

You are right, it is somewhat annoying. I don't agree that it is completely pointless but I accept that although players were being added as they register it may make more sense to wait until the full squad is complete. I don't agree that it is pointless below the Conference! The managerial records table is accurate, what sort of source do you require. The information is on the official club website, why therefore would it be necessary to remove?

The club does indeed have two goalkeeping coaches. Whether this will continue to be the case remains to be seen but it is accurate.

I have a number of images of the Stadium but am less sure about how to include such images within a particular section, that may be information that would be valuable.

Supporters, casual visitors and groundhoppers are always welcome at Mayfield Stadium; but that is no reason to keep removing things from the page!

DustyRam
 * You might not agree, but unless you can promise to edit on at least a weekly basis for the foreseeable future (at least a year) to keep the squad list updated, then having it is really not a good idea. It just doesn't work at this level of football (and I speak as an AFC Sudbury fan) and ultimately it devalues Wikipedia as a source when it's full of out-of-date information.
 * Re the managerial records table, what would be specifically needed is a source that provides the stats given in the table. If the club website has a page that lists this, than that would be great. If it's been something cobbled together based on your own calculations, then it won't fly as it would probably be deemed original research.
 * If you have some images that you own (i.e. you took the photo yourself – this is very important as otherwise you don't own the copyright and can't release it) and are happy to release it into the public domain (once it's on Wikipedia, anyone can take it and use it elsewhere), then the best way to do it is:
 * Create a link on the article itself (e.g. [[Image:Mayfield Stadium.jpg]] (make sure you get the correct file type – jpg, png etc), then view this link using the show preview button
 * Open that link in a new tab, which will take you to the upload page
 * Select the image to upload from your computer
 * Select the correct copyright status dropdown menu (something along the lines of I own this image etc).
 * Hopefully that all makes sense. Again, if you have any questions, let me know (also, when you write on a talk page, you need to sign your name using four tildas – i.e. ~ ). Cheers, Number   5  7  22:53, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Number 57,

I do agree where information is not updated but I don't agree where it is. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating but I would not have added such information had I not intended to keep it updated. Many a path is paved with good intentions but that is no reason to apply such a blanket statement. Nevertheless, I shall wait until the registrations are made before I will revisit this issue.

The website carries hall of fame information that includes the managerial record.

I shall explore the images. Your information is extremely helpful although it will remain to be seen whether I am able to do it. I am very familiar of copyright and the images are indeed mine.

DustyRamDustyRam (talk) 00:03, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've added that as a reference to the managerial stats section. Note that the table can only be updated when the source is, so whoever is doing that for the club will need to keep it up too. Re the club squads, it is a blanket statement, but I wouldn't be making it if I wasn't confident it was the case. I'd love Wikipedia to be able to go into that level of detail, but it just isn't practical, especially with the turnover of players at non-League clubs. However, you're more than welcome to ask for further opinions on this at WT:FOOTY, the discussion page for other football editors.
 * Also, you don't need to type your name when you sign using the tildas – it automatically does it. Cheers, Number   5  7  00:15, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Hello again. Please don't reinsert the squad list, as it will be removed again. If an edit you make is reverted, you are expected to follow the WP:BRD cycle and get consensus for your additions in a discussion prior to adding again. As yet, there is no consensus to add the squad list back. I'm sorry if this seems high-handed, but I've spent years cleaning up long out-of-date squad lists added to articles by drive-by editors. As I said before, if you are willing to commit to editing weekly, then I'm ok with it; otherwise it's just going to end up as useless info. Thanks, Number   5  7  22:28, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, the link to the managerial stats (here) is now broken. Do you have an updated one? Thanks, Number   5  7  22:32, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

The reference has been fixed.

I really do have better things to do than to attempt to obtain a consensus amongst people who have already made their minds up! However, you have not answered the point that at least five other teams in the League display a current squad list!

You have also said it before... I quote: "If you are willing to commit to editing weekly, then I'm ok with it"... however, I am not sure you really mean that although you have now said it twice. I say that because you are determined to remove it without further ado. This is somewhat contradictory, do you not agree?
 * With regards to your point that "at least five other teams in the League display a current squad list", an argument that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is geenrally considered a poor argument (hence why we have a page about it) except in cases where the overwhelming majority of articles contain similar information. As it's only seven out of 38 (excluding Phoenix Sports reserves who don't have a separate article), it would suggest that the more common outcome is that squad lists should not be on the articles. Having had a look at the other articles of clubs in the CCL with squadlists:
 * Ashford United's had no date of last update, and although it does appear to have been updated in August, updates are sporadic at best in the article history
 * Canterbury City's was nine months out of date
 * Crowborough Athletic's had no date of last update and doesn't seem to have been properly updated for at least a year
 * Croydon's was two years out of date
 * Eltham Palace's was 11 months out of date
 * Rusthall's was over three years out of date (the last update was in August 2013)
 * Sporting Club Thamesmead's was last updated in February 2012!
 * Rather than serving as examples of why the AFC Croydon Athletic article should have a squadlist, these articles only show us why we shouldn't have them at this level. Due to the deficiencies mentioned above (plus incorrect formatting in several of them), I've removed all of them. Number   5  7  09:27, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Managerial stats
Could you provide an updated source for the managerial stats? It is currently referenced to this, which is almost a year out-of-date. Cheers, Number   5  7  08:16, 14 April 2018 (UTC)