User talk:ESP2Ngermanroo

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:08, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Possible conflict of interest
Please read Plain and simple conflict of interest guide. Thank you. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:48, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Message
Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:18, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of James Georgeff


The article James Georgeff has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Promotional article, likely written by subject himself - fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. GiantSnowman 08:26, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Hello Giant Snowman - please take reference to the following - http://www.theherald.com.au/story/497848/georgeff-at-home-on-international-voyage/ this shows his involvement in the team FC AROUCA in Portugal (in Portugal they refer to him as his professional name 'james') This is showing the MLS international players map; http://jamesgeorgeff.weebly.com/uploads/2/2/2/0/2220060/worldplayers.jpg

Please indicate to me how you would like to discuss the issues you raise... over which medium. I am not that great in wikipedia... I am new to it.

Nomination of James Georgeff for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article James Georgeff is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/James Georgeff until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. GiantSnowman 08:49, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Transfermarkt
Transfermarkt is not a reliable source, please do not use it. GiantSnowman 09:55, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh ok - My mistake. I will work on changing and improving some citations. Thanks.

@GiantSnowman - I have just done a little browse of "professional athletes" that I found through searching Major Indoor Soccer League... and found many bio's with much, much, much, much less, and very 'shady' citations. Yet this bio article is up for discussion? I find that odd. I have added a few more clear citations, and also was in touch with the MLS who said that if you would like to contact them, either phone or email, they would be happy to confirm that the article is cited correctly as far as the MLS claims. All others, please let me know - I will try find a couple more references to really make sure the bio looks overly well cited. Thanks.

P.s. how can I site a pdf or jpg document saved on my computer? I am speaking in reference to a poster which I would like to add as reference material. Thanks.


 * Allow me to field this one. Per, Other stuff exists, we try not to argue that because it's okay in another article, it's okay in this one.


 * As for references in the form of a pdf or jpg document, I think this sort of thing is fine. Just upload it to that site. Others may disagree, but such a way of citing a newspaper article seems pretty solid to me. Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 21:25, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Anna, thank you for remaining civil in this conversation - I will provide any references you may need, as plenty exist. Just tell me which parts of the bio seem inadequately cited and I will improve them. And, yes, I do have some citations, or sources, or references, whatever you may call in PDF style and JPG documentations. How do I cite them? Do I add them here? Do I add them to the bio page itself? Please give me the simple terms on how to do it, as I am not the best on PC. Thank you!


 * I would just upload all the pdfs and jpgs you have of newspaper articles and find as many other refs as possible too. Add them where you feel they are needed. You may add the same reference is more than one place. Add them like this:


 * Rabbits are cute.


 * Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:16, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Anna - I still cannot figure out how to add as a reference a pdf of jpg I have...? I cannot use the because it is not stored on the internet... it is stored on my pc...?

Articles for deletion/James Georgeff
Sorry to hear about the AfD. One rationale is "...never played in a fully-professional league..." I don't quite understand. I asked you several times at IRC if it passed Notability (sports). You assured me it did. Did he actually play for the Houston Dynamo? At WP:NFOOTBALL, there is a list showing Major League Soccer as a pro league, so I gather if he played for Houston Dynamo, he should be notable. What gives? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 21:20, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

The bio shows that he was the first Australian in history to be drafted to the MLS. He was also the first Australian in History to be drafted to the MLS and Major Indoor Soccer League. As far as I have seen, and provided citation in article for, he played in a game against toronto FC. I also see a photo of him on the field - (http://www.gettyimages.de/detail/nachrichtenfoto/houston-dynamo-james-georgeff-in-action-vs-dc-united-nachrichtenfoto/81910071). To see the game time at Houston please see the citations given in the bio references. Regardless of the Houston statistics - he played multiple games and scored multiple goals for a professional team in Portugal... FC Arouca... This is higher standard that Major League many would argue (http://www.futebolmundial.net/portugal-200809-2adivisao-serie-b) .... Last year he fielded for a German team in the Regional-liga. This is considered professional also.

To add - the player was also noted as being the youngest player in history to play in the 'first team' of the Adamstown Rosebuds in Australia... at 15 yrs 10 months - This league is considered, when this took place, to be the second highest league in Australia - which I am sure most would argue... is not amauture. To double check this - please read the recently published German news paper article saying how many Germans are playing in the 2nd league of Australia as professionals - see this article showing a German playing as a Professional in the SAME LEAGUE that Georgeff played in at 15yrs and 10 months old. (http://www.bild.de/bild-plus/sport/fussball/profi/goodbye-deutschland-die-fussball-auswanderer-31109936,view=conversionToLogin.bild.html) Hopefully the last few examples give enough of a background check...


 * The subject may be notable for those reasons. Please make a statement at Articles for deletion/James Georgeff. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:16, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

James Georgeff and the Houston Dynamo
The article reads "...He was drafted in the 2008 MLS Supplemental Draft to Dominic Kinnear's MLS Championship winning team Houston Dynamo..." but did he actually play for that team? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:26, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes - please see the citations directly above. Above you will see one citation with him in a photo, and another of him having played in a game. The article said he was the first Australian ever drafted - which I confirmed with the MLS a couple of days ago through their back office with an email confirmation. The point of the article is, he made history on 3 occasions - and has played professional at 4 clubs the way I see it. I also saw he was signed to a 4 year contract with Houston Dynamo and was using an international visa spot - with which he was listed as holding a P-1 Visa (which means professional athlete visa as it was explained to me). To have this visa, the US immigration must find you a full (and above average professional) to retain this visa. So, legally he was a professional as well.

see picture - http://www.gettyimages.de/detail/nachrichtenfoto/houston-dynamo-james-georgeff-in-action-vs-dc-united-nachrichtenfoto/81910071 see article - http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/pan-pacific-soccer-daily-feb-18-2008


 * Okay, so if he played for a professional team in a professional league listed here, then he should be notable per WP:NFOOTBALL. Please go to the deletion debate and say that. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 07:46, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


 * - no, that is false, he never played in MLS. GiantSnowman 09:17, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

GiantSnowman - What exactly is the question here? Is it: That he is the first australian to be drafted to the MLS? That he is first and only Australian to be drafted as number one pick to MISL? That he is the first only australian to be picked in both drafts at same time? Is it that he played for a professional team? Is it showing in pieces in the article to be false? OR - is it if he played in the MLS or not???????

Let me know... If I am regarding the grounds for deletion - it was 'never played in a professional team'. Is that the question here or not? If so, I can answer that... with reliable references.


 * Two issues - firstly that he has never played in a fully-professional league - and I mean actually played a first team, competitive game, not just been signed to the roster. Secondly, that he has not received "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". GiantSnowman 10:00, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Do you find the Portuguese second league as a professional league? Did you not see the multiple independent links showing games and goals in that league? There was articles from Major League showing he played on the houston team, and then an Australian Article confirming all these issues in one article. I believe the news paper was the 'newcastle morning herald' - independent from the source.
 * I'll present my evidence tonight when I have beter internet access. FYI, you should make your case at the AFD discussion page, not here. GiantSnowman 10:12, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues
Please stop adding leagues to this list without also introducing a reliable source at the same time. GiantSnowman 09:16, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Is this not a reliable source? http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu%C3%9Fball-Regionalliga_Nordost

Is this not a reliable source? http://www.bild.de/bild-plus/sport/fussball/profi/goodbye-deutschland-die-fussball-auswanderer-31109936.bild.html

As I look at the sourcing of the other info on that page... they don't look too 'reliable'... but no issue with the others?

Also - apologies - my editing and adding of sources is limited with my abilities on this medium... I am not great on this.


 * Wikipedia is not a reliable source, the Bild.de source does not confirm it is a FPL, and you have already been told about WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. GiantSnowman 09:42, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Georgeff9: GiantSnowman is very experienced with this sort of thing and wouldn't seek deletion without good cause. Please ask, if you want, what is needed, if there is anything, to save the article. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 09:47, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Bild.de the biggest news paper in Germany just wrote that article about "Professionals around the world" and based the whole story off a guy who plays in the Australian NBN State Super League (ie Adamstown Rosebud) - but... I guess... there are better references out there?... hmmm Then article of playing on the Houston Team... were cited. Articles of playing for FC Arouca... were cited (BOTH profesional teams) Articles of playing in Regional-liga cited.

I am a little confused as the basis of this article stems from being the first ever drafted australian in MLS and MISL as number 1 pick.


 * One person being a professional in a team in a league does not make the league fully-professial. A team being professional does not make the the league fully-professial.
 * Oh, and I politely suggest you retract your comment. GiantSnowman 10:05, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I think I don't know the difference between a fully- and partially professional team, player, or league. Isn't the league listed here? WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues Please understand that I know nothing about sports and I've only approved 1 or 2 such articles. I'm acting in good faith. I think I'm not qualified to be in this discussion. Please pardon me. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:16, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

My point is, since when does an athlete who made 3 significant historical benchmarks not considered for this article? First Australian Drafted MLS - First and only Australian Drafted to MISL - youngest player ever to play or score in Aus. 2. div. Then, the citations of playing in pro teams (and pro leagues)... So the question is playing in a "league" that is all pro? therefore if the subject was to play in the champions league for example, he is not considered a professional... unless he actually played in a league game for the same club?
 * If your argument for notability is "first Aussie to be signed to MLS" then I would point you in the direction of WP:BLP1E.
 * To be notable per WP:NFOOTBALL you need to play in a fully-professional league game, or in a Cup competition between two teams from fully-professional leagues. GiantSnowman 10:16, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

No my argument is not for 1 event. It is 1) First Aussie ever drafted to MLS. 2) First Aussie ever drafted OR drafted as Number one pick in USA to the MISL. 3) youngest player in club history to field for an NBN State Super League team at 15yrs old. 4) the rest of the professional sporting things are extra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 10:21, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * why have you replied on behalf of - are you the same editor? GiantSnowman 10:23, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

User:Samej1902
If you are Georgeff9 and editing now as User:Samej1902, please declare it. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:28, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

yes - i wanted a new account and couldnt figure the way to do this. I dont like the other name. So I have anew one. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samej1902 (talk • contribs) 10:35, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Which account do you wish to edit under? GiantSnowman 10:37, 14 August 2013 (UTC)