User talk:Ed Poor/old

Hi Ed, what can you tell me about violence in religion, especialy in its theoretical and conceptual forms.

Ed, on MichaelTinkler/Talk you'd asked about Galileo and his struggles with the church. After the Greeks a lot had been lost, or put on the back burner, even during Roman times. But there was still a lot there, and throughout the Middle Ages there was a great deal of interest in ancient philosophy. At the time of Galileo the works of Aristotle were widely supported, and the church had recently decided to adhere to them dogmatically. This second was a temporary development, owing to attempts to define a more comprehensive canon for Catholicism in the face of religious criticism. A century earlier the heliocentric theory of Copernicus passed with little remark, and actually the church initially showed a relatively large amount of leniency with Galileo, allowing him for instance to right a comparison of heliocentric and geocentric models so long as he didn't attempt a full scale attack on the church's position. He did, of course, and was forbidden from publishing as a result. Later, when a friend of his became the pope, he decided to risk publishing something anyways, and this is what got him in trouble - mainly because the pope saw the Aristotelian Simplicio as a caricature of himself. All in all it can be said that, though the church was being oppressive, Galileo showed a considerable lack of tact in dealing with it, and was unlucky to be alive at that particular time. Only a relatively short while later Kepler and Newton found themselves essentially unopposed from that quarter.

Looking for a home for the following observation:


 * Many religious people and theologians study scriptures in their original language. Jews who can, study the Torah in Hebrew. Christians and New Testament scholars study Aramaic or ancient Greek. Krishna devotees study Sanskrit to study the Baghvad-Gita (sp?), and Unificationists (are told to) study Korean to understand the Divine Principle and the sermons of Sun Myung Moon.

I really don't know what to make of this. Is there any article this belongs to? --Ed Poor
 * Hi Ed. I think the best place would be on the Scriptures page. It should be very easy to work in, especially since tht pageis a bit of a mess it the moment. :) It would probably be useful to include what language the scriptures of each reigion were originally written in, too. BTW, Christian scholars also study Hebrew. --STG

Hi Ed! Welcome (kinda late, I know...). Just wanted to say that it's great that you are so open to people checking you for NPOV, etc., but I've been wondering what draws you to write on subjects (especially as a major contributor) where you seem to be pretty sure you will have trouble being neutral...Not that this is bad -- I'm just being nosy! ;-) JHK


 * Why should that be a problem? I'll just lay out the "truth" as I see it, same as anyone else -- then we can all wikify the heck out of the article. All opinion removed or attributed, and so on.


 * Suppose, for example that I believed that corporations were wicked but free markets were good? Would that automatically disqualify me from authorship on those two topics?


 * To take another example, many of the writers and for the Washington Times and the World&I magazine are members of the Unification Church, but they manage to attain enough journalistic objectivity as to be taken seriously. As a conservative paper the Washington Times isn't seen as any more biased (in its news reporting) than liberal papers such as the Washington Post or New York Times. (At least, I think not, but I don't know much about politics.)


 * I believe it is possible for a person with strong opinions to express them in an acceptable form, so long as that form does not require an explicit repudiation. NPOV forever! Ed Poor

Hello Ed. This is H.W. Clihor. I see social dynamics as a field of study was removed because a source said it wasn't a viable area of study. I'm not sure who your source is, but situational dynamics as well as Social Psychology have been around for years. It is now multi-disciplanary in scope. Here are a few citations with only a limited 45 minutes of research:

Iverson Software: Glossary / Dictionary of Terms & Terminology of Sociology definition of the situation - The determination of which statuses and roles are relevant in a social situation.

Thomas and Thomas (1928) wrote "If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences" (page 571-572). W.I. Thomas and D.S. Thomas (1928). The Child in America: Behavior Problems and Programs. New York: Alfred A. Knopf.

See the site regarding contributors to modern sociology: http://www2.pfeiffer.edu/~lridener/DSS/INDEX.HTML, including W.I. Thomas' expanded definition of a situation. From W. I. Thomas, The Unadjusted Girl. Boston: Little, Brown, and Co., 1923

CRIME PROFILES The Anatomy of Dangerous Persons, Places, and Situations Second Edition Terance D. Miethe, University of Nevada, Las Vegas Richard C. McCorkle, University of Nevada, Las Vegas ISBN: 1-891487-54-X

New Brunswick 2001 Summer Session Catalog SOCIOLOGY 920 UNDERGRADUATE : INDIVIDUAL AND SOCIETY: Relations between social structure and psychological structure; processes of socialization; interaction of biological, situational, and social factors on personality and behavior.

Labeling Theory and Ethnomethodology (these ideas are drawn from Goode: 1994, 1997, 2001; and Pfohl, Images of Deviance and Social Control, 1985) Theoretical Perspective rooted in Symbolic Interactionism The Definition of the Situation. Verstehen (insiders view, Goode, "On Behalf of Labeling Theory"). Action is based on meaning, Meaning is created through interaction, Meaning is continually modified and interpreted. Focus on the situational dynamics out of which meaning emerges. Social Response 

Research: Mailman School of Public Health: Columbia University: New York City. Situational Contexts of Gun Use Among Young Males This research examines the situational and transactional dynamics by which disputes escalate either to lethal gun violence or to non-violent outcomes.

Scientifically Dissecting Violence Canela-Cacho, MacCoun Are Part of an International, Interdisciplinary Consortium to Develop Theories on Violence by Fernando Quintero Copyright 1996, The Regents of the University of California. Produced and maintained by the Office of Public Affairs at UC Berkeley His interests include analysis of social situations that lead to violence, particularly the impact of drug dealing on communities. "Right now, we know remarkably little about the dynamics of community violence," MacCoun said. "Does putting a drug dealer behind bars create a situation for violence because it opens up the potential for turf wars? We don't know the answers to these kinds of questions."

A compelling HIV prevention study released today by the San Francisco AIDS Foundation Compelling HIV prevention study by SFAF sheds new light on sexual risk-taking among gay and bisexual men Condom access not the issue -- situational dynamics often barriers to protected sex

Drs. Thomas Petee and Janice Wittekind of Auburn University presented a talk called, "Mass Murder in America: Copycat Effects and Other Situational Dynamics."

Jill Harries, Law and Empire in Late Antiquity. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1999. Pp. ix, 235. ISBN 0-521-41087-8 Reviewed by Charles Pazdernik, Emory University In place of institutions and static constitutional formulae, H.'s emphasis is upon situational dynamics and shifting coalitions of interest groups comprising both the organs of Roman government and the parties to particular disputes which become the subjects of litigation.

THE JOURNAL OF JAPANESE STUDIES Abstract Takeyuki Tsuda The Stigma of Ethnic Difference: The Structure of Prejudice and "Discrimination" toward Japan's New Immigrant Minority

By analyzing the "negative minority" status of Japanese-Brazilian return migrants in Japan, this paper explores the complex relationship between ethnic prejudice and discriminatory behavior in the context of the experience of self, relative social status, and social situational pressures. A rather complex structure of Japanese ethnic prejudice toward the Japanese-Brazilians has developed based on the stigma of their past emigration legacy, their currently low social position as unskilled migrant workers, their "Brazilian" cultural characteristics, and psychocultural feelings of ethnic "impurity." The direct expression of such derogatory attitudes in discriminatory Japanese behavior varies according to the dual structure of self and shifting situational dynamics.

Volume 24, Number 2 (Summer 1998)

Mermaids and Ethics: The Role of Women in Organisations Eva E Tsahuridu Edith Cowan University, Faculty of Business & Public Management Pearson Street, Churchlands, Western Australia 6018 Hoffman's (1998) research attributes the lack of consensus in the ethical responses between males and females to the fact that the situational dynamics affect an individual's response, and in some instances gender and situational dynamics combine to affect an individual's ethical response

COGNITIVE DISSONANCE IN POST-SOVIET RUSSIANS. MIRONENKO, Irina A.; Humanitarian University of TU, St. Petersburgh, Russia. An important part of the totalitarian system in soviet Russia was the ideology higherly integrate and comprising all aspects of social life: education, art, mass media, etc. The system was aimed at creating in all soviet people a congruent and positive image of the world and self-concept. No one could escape this influence and for every Russian the crash of the totalitarism implied a loss of this congruence. In the light of the Cognitive Dissonance theory a number of psychological phenomena are viewed concerning situational dynamics of personality and self-identification and its impell on social adaptation and political sympathies. The major plot of the empirical data considered relates to attitudes and behavioral performance towards mass media.

While I am not sure this will impact your decision or not, it is being studied carefully by Criminology, Sociology, Psychology, Ethics, Ethnology, Anthropology and (-- Because of our newer understanding of complex animal and insect behavior -- Biology.) and quite a few other disciplines. But Social Psychology is where it germinated, thanks to W.I. Thomas early in the 20th century.

-- H.W. Clihor. If you would like to dicuss this further, feel free to contact me at: tekumel@hotmail.com anytime.


 * Looks like you have the makings of an article there, pal. When you have it written and are ready to post it, there's an empty page waiting for you at Social Dynamics. <= Click on the little question mark, and good luck.

Thanks for considering my information Ed. If you could please spare some expert advice. I know the article as written is somewhat clinical and not concise enough. Should I remove the annotations within the explanatory text and place them at the bottom?

Ed, with all due respect, you are apparently using the Wikpedia partially as a forum for the expression of your opinions, and for debate, discussion, and commentary (and also encouraging others to do the same). While a certain amount of this is necessary for the Wikipedia to be built, the main purpose of Wikipedia is to be an encyclopedia. Please make a serious effort to minimize these other activities. Please try to reverse your priorities - don't ask "Is there any change I could possibly make to this entry? / Comment I could possibly make? / Discussion I could possibly encourage?" but rather "Can I possibly restrain myself from changing this? / Expressing my personal views? / Encouraging unhelpful debate?" Please don't put in your 2 cents, 5 cents, or other amount of change unless you are quite sure it will be a valuable and helpful contribution.


 * This is possible the most constructive piece of advice I've received to date and will accordingly be quite a challenge to put into effect. To discern whether a prospective edit is a bona fide correction to bias, or merely an expression of my own bias, is a very hard call. Ed Poor

Mr. Poor -- Your reasoning that "cunctator" is a wry "cunt-dick" pun on "dictator", indicative of my "often-voiced complaints against excessive use of authority here on wikipedia", is incorrect.

I have used this handle for several years, well before I entered Wikipedia. The choice has nothing to do with Wikipedia. And it wasn't chosen as a wry pun on any other dictators either. It's an amusing word just by its sound, and if anything, it's a wry pun on my propensity for procrastination.

Nor I have not often voiced complaints against excessive use of authority. I have argued against what I perceive as poor Wikipedia policy. There is, of course, a correlation between authority and policy-making, but I'm not concerned with "excessive use of authority". LMS has claimed that I am, but it's a groundless claim. --TheCunctator


 * Thanks for the clarification. I think I'd like to have my pun suggestion removed, as it's obviously baseless. Ed Poor

Well now I'm pissed off at something that happened on Taliban/Talk.... LOL. Ok passing shot Ed, Feminism began in the 19th century as a response to the perception that women are oppressed by a society in which most of the advantages fall upon males in fact when the feminists began, the perception was that if anything women were better off than men. The feminists started of despite that perception and it took a long time to get people to come around to the idea that women were oppressed. Yes I'm sure some will have a cow over that remark but its true. Feminists created the perception, not vice versa. Look at some old books on history from your library. Feminist mythology about female oppression developed and there was a certain amout of 'revisionism' from the 1960s onwards. When they began they were considered a JOKE by both sexes. I really think that part about the patriarchy needs to be in the definition part of feminism because it is a characteristic of feminism NOT a characteristic of society. Anyway I'll leave it in your capable hands....

I think there's a whole lot of people on this project who really have very little real depth of knowledge of the articles they edit, but who are unwilling to admit their amateurish opinions might be wrong on a few points. Add to that a strong protective instinct for "their" articles I guess.... not very Wiki, but very human. David Byron

'''Ed, what software have you engineered ? I have Stephen Schach's Classical and Object-Oriented Software Engineering. It was quite a course taught by my faculty''' BF

Wikipedia_standards_on_the_origin_of_life has had its content deleted, is this intentional?

Ed, I'd like to make a couple of hopefully constructive suggestion about the sentence, "Others see the extra criticism as a sign of God's love, arguing that God ignored the other tribes or civilizations on account of their utter hopelessness while showering special attention on the chosen people because of His special hope for them" (if you want to re-insert it into the article) 1) rather than a "sign of God's love" perhaps "a reflection of a complex relationship between God and the Children of Israel." 2) couldn't you just cut the phrase "God ignored....?" Not only am I unsure who if any have claimed this, it just doesn't seem necessary to the point (unless I am misunderstanding the point) -- SR

Ed, I know you were just making a joke, but I just thought you should know I found the following mildly offensive:
 * You have my blessing (see the Jacob and Esau story), my son, to make the changes you have outlined. :-) Ed Poor

The reason is that I actually do regularly request and receive a blessing from my priest (whom I address as "Father"), and any other Eastern Orthodox priest that I greet formally. That means something to me, and it looks a certain way, and it doesn't look like that. Not holding a grudge, but thought it might help you to know that about me. I think the Eastern Orthodoxy page briefly explains how the priesthood evolved from the presbyters or elders. --Wesley

Ed, I am tired! Anyway, I certainly did not mean to trivialize the suffering of vicitms of racism, only to say that most scientists -- racist and anti-racist -- have not been persecuted the way Galileo was. Perhaps racist scientists should be. But even here I would qualify it -- not only do I not want to put some racist scientists in the US or Canada in the same category of Joseph Mengele, I think the crucial difference is precisely the social context -- we live in a society based on free debate where a few scientists can be racist and they will be challenged publically and a well-informed public can make up its mind. In the 1930s racist scientists lived in racist societies, both here and in Germany, and their work was used to justify and promote horrible things. But today such scientists in eitehr the US or Germany can say what they want and for the most part, thanks in part to open scientific debate, and democratic societies where there is vigorous public debate in legislatures, their work has not had the same awful effect. SR

Ed -- what's the problem with Vandals? You have something against early Germanic Arians? JHK

Ed &#8212; Who around here doesn't have a bias? Your knowledge lets you keep others precise in what they say. I've enjoyed reading what you have to say. I hope you stay. &#8212;Eric ---
 * I've decided that my bias is not an insuperable obstacle to my participation in Wikipedia. 

Wikipediholic you are not, right Ed? :))))))))))))

Anyway, i always enjoyed reading your articles and answers, so nice to see you back szopen

Hi Ed, nice to see you back..
 * I no longer think that the Wikipedia can be a useful resource for resolving controversies. At best, it can be a starting point for someone researching a controversial subject such as global warming or evolution.'

You're right, its not. Neither are the pages of the economist. The only worthwhile place for the resolution of scientific controversies is in peer reviewed journals -- GWO

Peer reviewed journals often reflect the bias of their respective editorial boards.
 * The old shibboleth about the "inherent bias of the science establishment" is largely a great deal of bunkum. The Lomborg affair is a case in point.  There are two opposing sides: If we believe Lomborg, we have to believe that almost the environment science establishment is involved in a conspiracy of enormous magnitude to protect their vested interests.


 * If we choose to believe the establishment (Nature, Scientific American), we have to believe that a single scientist (Lomborg) did some not-very-good research. No conspiracy, just a small amount of bad science, from someone with no experience in the field.


 * Even in the abscence of other any compelling arguments, doesn't Occam's Razor tell you where the smart money lies? Journals certainly aren't perfect. They are miles better than anyone else I can think of.  -- GWO

I think you make an important point, Ed, when you mention the idea of linking to other viewpoints instead of representing them in an article. In my opinion this helps structure the 'pedia and makes articles easier to digest. Some people just want to know whether something is controversial without getting into the details of each viewpoint. BTW I'm happy you've decided to continue contributing. --Seb

Ed, of course I don't mind -- it is a collaborative effort after all (the article on communism). But I invite you to keep tweaking. There is a difference between a "communist government" and a non-communist state that is ruled by a Communist Party. In short, I really do not think that it is accurate to describe the USSR and PRC as "communist countries," it is fine for casual conversation but an encyclopedia article demands more precision. The article could, and should, point out that many people, especially in the context of the cold war, did refer to these countries as communist, and that one reason they did was to signal the fact that they were ruled by Communist parties. But the fact that the countries were not really/actually "communist" is not a matter for "purists," it is an issue that an encyclopedia article should address clearly. Basically, my point (concern) is that the article is and should be talking about two things: what a "communist government" is, and different ways that others (especially non-communists or opponents of communism) have used the word. I have no problem with all of this being in the article, but the distinction should be made very clear. i understand that this is what you are trying to do in the usage note and I appreciate it but frankly I just don't think it is adequately effective. SR


 * I don't know why it should be such a big issue. There are no communist (small c) countries; never have been, and probably IMHO never will. For political observers to have to use the clumsy phrase "countries ruled by Communist parties" seems absurd to me. I mean, come on, the ruling party of the country is the Communist party; why can't writers refer to the country as Communist (BIG C)? Will someone really get confused between Communism and communism? Is the use of BIG and small letters not enough, even aided by context? --Ed


 * It isn't THAT big an issue, and I do appreciate the tweaking you have done. But here is what is at stake: you will learn somethings about "communism" by looking at communist countries like the USSR or PRC.  But there is much you will not learn, and it is impoartant to be clear about that.  In many ways, you can learn more about communism by looking at a traditional kibbutz in Israel, than by looking at the PRC.  SR