User talk:EddieHugh/Archive 2015

Jazz pianists
Hi, very pleased to see a quality editor interested in jazz topics with some great goals of achievement on here. I'm a keen jazz guitarist and (learning) jazz pianist myself! I've been building the List of jazz standards and created entries on the years in jazz a while back but I haven't got around to expanding most of them yet. I think it would be good if you could add 10 or 20 jazz standards to your lists to aim to get up to GA, they're really diabolical generally on here, even some of the very popular ones! I'd be happy to work with you on a few of them. I'd be very interested in taking somebody like Bill Evans to FA, Oscar and Art also I really think should be brought up to FA status. I would also like to get Joe Pass up to GA, but I don't think there's much bio info generally on him. BTW, thanks for your excellent comments at the FAC, can you clarify if that's a support?♦ Dr. Blofeld  20:57, 15 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Dr. Blofeld: The goals are largely personal ones; I haven't decided if the GA and FA ones should be for the jazz project instead, but I haven't had to, as no-one else has produced one! The motivation is for the pianists for now and the goals are a long way off, so I'm not considering adding in other things at the moment (although I have created a few jazz standard articles). They'd need to go beyond jazzstandards.com to be worthwhile.
 * At a glance, the Evans article looks not bad, the Peterson one is a mess and Tatum's is excessively about technique/style and comments on it. The last is of greatest interest to me, especially as far less has been written about his life (still only one biography?). Pass shouldn't be particularly hard, although that's a comment made without checking.
 * I changed the FAC from Comments to No objections as, from memory, I've supported only once and that went wrong when the article got hit with a plagiarism charge and failed. I think that you have enough supports to get through, but I can have a go at checking all of the criteria (rather than the prose and bits of the refs) if you wish. EddieHugh (talk) 18:07, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * So you're worried that if you support they'll do a spotcheck and show up problems and you'll feel sheepish again? I understand, but someday is going to come when you have an article at FAC and you'll be grateful for the support, if everybody worried about that then not much would be promoted! It's up to you, I do have a lot of support, but I do feel a little disappointed after spending so much time addressing all of your points you're still not willing to support it hehe! It is much easier to oppose an article than to support though, I agree. Don't worry about it now, thanks for the time you put into reviewing it anyway! On the jazz front, yes, one editor a yer or two back began giving Bill Evans a sizable expansion, I don't think they finished it though and only got up to the mid 60s - coverage from 1965 to 1980 is rather poor. There's still a lot of gaps but might be one to look at and get to GA, I might look into it later this week.♦ Dr. Blofeld  21:16, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Kind of, kind of! It's more that I find that people post Support or 'Support on prose' seemingly without having checked through all of the criteria; that instance stressed the point for me. It might be a few days, as there's far too much going on in the world of oxygen right now, but I'll try to look through it again. EddieHugh (talk) 21:55, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I can see that, the thing is you're super thorough so literally want everything to be checked before you're 100% convinced! I've asked Crisco to do a spotcheck anyway. Admittedly I was put off for several years from contributing to FAs as I found the climate at FAC too hostile, people seemed to oppose for the sake of it in the old days on here. This has improved in recent years with peer reviews and collaboration I think. I agree that FAs should be of the highest standard and thorough reviews are an essential part of it but a line has to be drawn, there's no such thing as perfection. My concern is that some editors are put off from FAC because they find it impossible to deal with. Some of the people who helped write the Bramshill article feel that way about FA. We want to encourage more and more people to go for FA rather than scare them off by making them feel as though it has to be perfect. Finding a balance is difficult though! And if you also consider how much difficulty we get on TFA day with complaints and that, makes it difficult to convince editors that it's worth the trouble! Currently listening to this two of my favourites Joe Pass and Oscar together! On the List of jazz standards I was thinking about revising to a table format with columns for composer, year of release, original key and a summary. What do you think? Perhaps the time for now would be better spent getting a standard like Satin Doll or Body and Soul up to GA? I mean look at how poor Satin Doll is, one of the most popular standards is still pretty much a stub!!♦ Dr. Blofeld  23:16, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * After a check of some things, now supported. I've listened to the first Pass-OP track, which is a ridiculously strong start. The list – that sounds like a lot of work and largely duplicating what's on the individual pages; there'd need to be a lot of notes on the composers (some were gambled away by the original composer, for instance, so the named, legal composer is just a starting point). Better to concentrate on converting the redlinks and targeting a GA or two (Body and Soul? 'Round Midnight (song)?). I haven't collaborated with a target (e.g. GA), so welcome suggestions on pointing the way forward. EddieHugh (talk) 17:39, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. Yes, I think it's better to just work on the standards and red links. I've already started a fair few. Round Midnight, Stella By Starlight, Autumn Leaves, any of the most popular ones would be good. Perhaps you could add getting the top 10 standards on the standards website up to GA status on your goals? Check out this performance of Round Midnight .♦  Dr. Blofeld  16:00, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll add it mentally – not even at 50% of any of the pianist goals yet! Petrucciani is another one to expand... EddieHugh (talk) 21:54, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I got you an image for Wynton Kelly. Perhaps in the article you could add something about the Wynton Kelly Trio or am I missing something?♦ Dr. Blofeld  10:30, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that – it's easy to find pictures, but not easy to find ones with the required permission / status and I'm far from expert in that area. The Kelly trio is the topic of the penultimate para of the 1959–71 section. I'll move the group photo down there. EddieHugh (talk) 12:27, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Good job on Pickens, I've requested some photos on flickr, hopefully somebody will kindly donate one image. Any others you wanted images for? BTW, do you have access to Newspapers.com, that's usually a tremendous source on American subjects. If not strongly recommend you apply WP:Newspapers.com, deals with all that.♦  Dr. Blofeld  23:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I do; it's been patchily useful. Photos for GAs: Eddie Costa (I contemplated contacting his family, but didn't); Jaki Byard; the Tommy Flanagan and Mulgrew Miller ones aren't very good. Thanks, EddieHugh (talk) 00:00, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

can you be of any assistance to Mr. Hugh here? Bramshill House passed FAC BTW so your support didn't backfire this time :-). Thanks again for your terrific review of it!♦ Dr. Blofeld  17:52, 28 February 2015 (UTC)


 * OK-the recent check of Eddie Costa and Jaki Byard turned up nothing free. However, that doesn't mean that free-use photos might not be found in future.  I'll have a look for Tommy Flanagan and Mulgrew Miller to see if we can get something going here. We hope (talk) 17:56, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry to say that there's nothing free at present for Tommy Flanagan or Mulgrew Miller. :// 02:20, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for trying. EddieHugh (talk) 10:49, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

The Tower House
Bramshill House passed FAC, thankyou for your input. I've opened a peer review for William Burges's The Tower House. Comments will be most welcome. Cheers.♦ Dr. Blofeld  19:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Thankyou for your input into the peer review. The article is now at FAC. Cheers.♦ Dr. Blofeld  22:09, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Newspapers.com check-in
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Donald Trump Religion
Hi there, you said that to be a Presbyterian implies Protestantism? Do the two not differ enough to warrant mention? Thanks. 108.169.237.171 (talk) 21:56, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think so, just as adding "Christian" wouldn't convey anything extra either. Even the source has "I am a Presbyterian within the Protestant group". EddieHugh (talk) 22:17, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, the sentence as quoted in the article itself says: 'In an April 2011 interview, on the 700 Club, Trump said, "I'm a Protestant, I'm a Presbyterian.", not a Presbyterian within the Protestant group.' Though that could just be Trump not understanding one supersedes the other.  My question is whether Protestant is truly a sub group or under the umbrella of Presbyterian.  I thought there were differences that, while not as stark as the differences between a catholic and Episcopalian set of beliefs, were sufficient to distinguish the two because while both may stem from Christianity, they are not the same, and one does not imply inclusivity to the other or vice versa.  That is to say, the tautology you implied of the form A = B, B, therefore A, isn't necessarily accurate.  However you would be right about adding Christian since Christianity is the root from which the various stems and leafs split.  For eg: where Y is the power set of Christianity and X is Christianity itself, then you could say for all sets z in Y: A = X, (A = z, if and only if [Y: z == Y{z}]). Pardon the lack of Universal (for all) and limited scope (for each) notation, I can't be bothered to look up the symbols and they're not easily accessed on my keyboard.  Essentially: A is Christian but only if the denomination A claims to be part of is one of the denominations which is a legitimate subset of Christianity.  Obviously the inverse would not be correct as it would claim you are Christian therefore you are the specific subset of Christianity that applied above.  In other words, anyone who is any sub set of Christian is obviously a Christian but anyone who is Christian is not necessarily the same sub set of Christian belief. Anyways, sorry for the vast over explanation I just want to make sure there's no confusion.  Can you be both Presbyterian and Protestant?  And if so, which implies which?  The reason I originally made the edit was because he had said himself he was a Protestant, then said a Presbyterian and in the speech and another interview he seemed to say he was one, then he said he was the other, then settled on both.  I don't know if they are mutually exclusive or not, but it seems odd none-the-less.  Thanks.

108.169.237.171 (talk) 08:49, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * That quote is definitely in the source. Although Presbyterian refers, strictly, to a church structure, outside specialist circles it refers to a form of the Protestant religion. Thus: all Presbyterians are Protestants and all Protestants are Christians. I don't mind being corrected if I'm wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure that I'm correct. See Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and Presbyterianism for some relevant background. EddieHugh (talk) 10:09, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * No I don't mind at all, I have no interest or dog in an ego fight. I was just under the impression that (and this is based solely on about 10 minutes of quick research that showed various structural and administrative differences between the two) they differed enough that the fact that he mentioned being a "protestant and a Presbyterian" warranted mentioning.  Though if as you say (and I'll gladly give benefit of the doubt here) all Presbyterian's are protestant, I can only assume Trump mentioned both because he doesn't know any better.  Sort of like someone saying "ATM Machine", in which case your original statement would be correct, and the wordplay is a tautology.  Thanks for your time. 108.169.237.171 (talk) 13:15, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Quid pro quo at GAN?
Hi Eddie. I've noticed you've got a couple musician articles nominated for good article status. I have one as well: DJ AM. Just making you an offer, if you start reviewing my nomination i'll review one of yours. No worries if you're not interested, but if you are, either reply and let me know which one you'd like to trade, or just start reviewing mine and i'll pick one of yours. Have a nice day. Freikorp (talk) 08:36, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your message. I just don't think I have time to launch into a full review at the moment, unfortunately. EddieHugh (talk) 22:13, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

This seems ethically dubious... I read it as an offer of good review for good review. 68.180.28.140 (talk) 09:45, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
 * That wasn't my reading. Perhaps you should check your understanding of "quid pro quo" and Assume good faith. EddieHugh (talk) 14:50, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm well aware of the meaning... it just came off as "I'll rub your back if you rub mine" I assume good faith, my comment was directed towards the user who made the offer, not to you. That's just how the offer reads though.  It didn't read as a "we're both reviewing, so to simplify the process, you do one of mine and vice versa?"  Again, just my pov and how it read. In fact quid pro quo specifically implies favorable outcome, service, etc in return for another.  Sort of like "You hook me up with this and I'll do the same for you".  Perhaps you could give me your interpretation of quid pro quo to clear it up?  In many circumstances, quid pro quo is illegal, especially with regards to subjects like politics, job promotions, and so on.  And the reason for that is because, again, quid pro quo carries an implicit bias to favorable results exchanged by the individual's.  So like I said, perhaps you should check your understanding, or define it for me?  Even the wiki definition of it generally leans towards two people exchanging favors with beneficial results to each other irrespective of objectivity...  68.180.28.140 (talk) 11:17, 30 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I just noticed the IPs comments here. I'm sorry that's how you interpreted my offer. I looked into whether or not arrangements like this are allowed some time ago and while there is no rule against it, it's true some people do frown upon it for the reasons you mention. However I can assure you I wouldn't be comfortable with such an arrangement where we both give each other favourable reviews without actually reviewing the article. My goal is to make 'my' articles as good as possible - i've previously thanked editors for opposing my nominations with constructive criticism, as this gives me a lot of material to help improve the article before I renominate it. I don't know how else to convince you that i'm telling the truth, other than my reputation as an editor. The reality is most review processes on wikipedia are quite backlogged, and GAN is no exception, so the way I see it a review exchange between two honest editors is a win-win-win situation. Freikorp (talk) 22:52, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh btw as of today my offer is still open haha, as nobody has started reviewing my nomination yet. :) Freikorp (talk) 22:54, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Lennie Tristano
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RfC: Jimi Hendrix
Hi! Would you care to comment at this RfC regarding the article Jimi Hendrix? It is about whether "acid rock" belongs in the infobox or not. Dan56 (talk) 22:01, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not really one for categorizing. Maybe if I knew what "acid rock" was... EddieHugh (talk) 22:12, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Craig Taborn
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DYK for Craig Taborn
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Your GA nomination of Lennie Tristano
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Meeting
Hi! I want to know you. Where are you from ? Shut_up 04:30, 6 August 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JTaax (talk • contribs)

Jazz.com
Thanks for diving straight in at Keith Jarrett. Can you tell me, please, whether jazz.com is considered a reliable source at Wikipedia? If not, is there another online source which I can use to verify biographical details?  CaesarsPalaceDude  (talk) 21:10, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It's borderline: look at their explanation of their sourcing. I've used it to find some information, but then generally found another source for that info, if it's biographical. For someone as well known as Jarrett, using google books and picking out some good publications from there is the easiest way in. JazzTimes is fine as well and is accessible online. Beyond that, there are lots of other routes and tricks, but it depends on exactly what you need and where it might be. Just ask if you'd like further detail. EddieHugh (talk) 22:22, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, see the jazz project page, giving more sugestions. EddieHugh (talk) 22:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's a great start.  CaesarsPalaceDude  (talk) 22:47, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Mehldau
Hi, Eddie. Sorry, but I undid your undoing, partially at least. Maybe my describtion of the changes I made were not exactly correct. Only part of the links were already somewhere in the article. I put them in, because I didn't read the whole article, only this section... Due to the considerable length of the whole text, I thought it would be good not to be forced to search for the names (e.g. ctr/f). But if you think that is inappropriate that's ok by me. But then maybe you should check the whole article once you are at it. There are also at least three times links back to back, like Nick Drake's "River Man" that are also "not recommended". The links for Brahms, McCoy Tyner in the citation are interesting, in case you don't know them. There is no lemma for the Jazz Book by "jazz pope" J.-E. Berendt, so I thought it is alright to link him instead. If you undo my undoing of your undoing, that's fine. MenkinAlRire 21:19, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Sinatra not high importance
I know true jazzers think of Sinatra in the same way true opera buffs think of Andrea Bocelli but I've been learning standards in recent months and almost always the core singers for the whole range of songs are him, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Sarah Vaughan, Louis Armstrong, Chet Baker and Tony Bennett. I was measuring him in terms of him being a sing of swing-jazz/classical pop and he's definitely one of the real core ones for voice. I guess if you're measuring him from a pure jazz viewpoint you're right on mid importance. It depends which context you view him in. For me Ella Fitzgerald and Frank Sinatra are the most prolific ones I always go to as first port of call to learn and familiarize myself with standards. I think of Ella and Frank as the two biggest voices in jazz overall, so if you take each instrument in jazz, including voice, that's why I'd consider him top importance. How many jazz standards did he sing?♦ Dr. Blofeld  17:43, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * All valid points. For me, the question is more How than What. It's possible to perform a jazz standard in a non-jazz way (in the main, they weren't performed as jazz originally) and a pop, etc. song can be performed in a jazz manner. Just as putting in a backing trumpet to a pop rendition doesn't make it jazz, having an orchestra belt out chords from the jazz world is not enough. Maybe if there were a Jazz Standards Project he'd be Top for that. Well done on getting it to GA; I was surprised to see that it wasn't already. EddieHugh (talk) 19:54, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Good point, jazz standards vs jazz. Yes, I was thinking of it in terms of his coverage of standards which is vast. Whenever I want to hear a standard I always search e.g "Embraceable You Sinatra", I Could Write a Book Sinatra" or "Ella My Funny Valentine ", "Ella Watch What Happens" etc. So that was my thinking on him being top importance. I agree on mid if you're viewing it from the centre of jazz music as a whole.♦ Dr. Blofeld  12:31, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

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