User talk:EddieHugh/Archive 2021

Moving message to new section...
I've never added anything before so this is a test. Will my post be seen here? John Costa, per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Costa#External_links should be included as Jazz musician EXTREMELY Influenced by Art Tatum. I believe this relationship/connection is extremely important in light of current social issues, the popularity of the Mr. Rogers movie, {Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood} that Art Tatum should be acknowledged as a contributor to the development of the creative content of the show/movie soundtrack. Happyhodgepodge (talk) 16:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC) Vmavanti (talk) 15:18, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the message. You nearly got it right: to start a new section on a talk page, click on the 'New section' icon (probably a little left of Wikipedia's search bar) and then put your message in the window that appears, plus a title for the new section. On Costa: there's a limit to how many people it's sensible to list on the Tatum article as having been influenced by him. Now, for the pianists, it's limited to ones who sources state took on the "virtuoso solo aspects of Tatum's style". On the Costa article, more (sourced) information on his style and how it compared with that of Tatum would be useful. I'll look into the other things. EddieHugh (talk) 18:34, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia isn't about current events or current social issues. It isn't a newspaper or a soap box or a vehicle to boost a cause or movement. I apologize for my fellow Americans hardwired lack of historical sense. Most Americans can't see past last Thursday.

Love for Sale
I don't know if you've seen my comments here. I'm astonished that an article about an unreleased album was even allowed to be created. Vmavanti (talk) 15:15, 15 January 2021 (UTC) Vmavanti (talk) 18:58, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The sources exist, so.... On genres, you could ask the simple question: are there any sources that state "this is a jazz [fusion] album"? If there aren't, then it shouldn't be listed as one. My very limited reading of it makes me conclude that the commentators were struggling to attach any genre labels to it, in which case the best solution, I believe, is to leave the genre part of the infobox blank (and/or use a hidden note, which is what I did at Finding Gabriel). EddieHugh (talk) 18:54, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The reluctance to find a genre partially motivates the desire to assign it to all genres to make it seem more profound—a form of puffery. I'm certain it's not jazz and I don't intend to let it remain in the project.

A fusion story
You could say I'm a child of the 80s. My first experience of jazz fusion was probably "Morning Dance" or "Summer Strut" by Spyro Gyra. Some called it elevator music, but what else are you going to do in an elevator? When Pat Metheny got a lot of airplay on the Weather Channel, he was OK with that. I remember Wynton Marsalis criticizing the Beatles with faint praise by calling it nice, hummable music. It certainly isn't complex—unless you sit down and try to rattle off songs the way Lennon and McCartney rattled off their first two albums, then you realize it's not so easy. I think Jay Beckenstein assembled a group of real musicians playing the kind of music people wanted at the time. My friends, who were musicians, played "Summer Strut" in the school jazz band, which was actually a class during school, and I played it over the air as a disc jockey back when DJ meant a job spinning discs instead of an "artist" scratching turntables. At about that time, Miles Davis made his comeback with Decoy and You're Under Arrest, and he was playing a pretty straight version of "Time after Time" by Cyndi Lauper, a nice pop song. Why? Because he liked it. That was the only justification he felt he needed. A few years before, I had heard Manhattan Transfer's Extensions because Dad was a big fan of that band. That was an interesting band. They had pop hits, but they could sing genuine jazz vocalese, relying a lot on Jon Hendricks. That album had "Birdland" on it, so I heard that version before the Weather Report original (with Jaco), which was before my time. They did a version of "Shaker Song" by Spyro Gyra. No one ever doubted the band's fine arrangements, mostly by Tim Hauser who died a couple years ago, or the vocal abilities of every member, esp. the harmony. You see how much variety there is in the music I've mentioned, and yet none of it would ever have been confused with R&B, which was being used interchangeably with "soul". I don't know if anyone ever called Ray Charles soul but they did call him R&B. When Donald Fagen thinks of R&B, he thinks of Bobby Blue Bland. And now that I think about it, "rhythm and blues" isn't all that descriptive a term, is it? Most songs today, most pop and rock songs, have a rhythm, of course, and contain elements of the blues. The surest way to make a term obsolete is to attach "new" or "neo" to it: New Criticism, New Deal, New Frontier. I have little confidence in neo-soul or Nu Jazz. I'm not going to use the term "yacht rock" either. That's a sarcastic insult, and I'm not here to insult musicians or to tell readers What They Ought to Like If They Were As Sensitive and Profound as I. As for shoegaze, I discourage it, unless you want to run into the person in front of you. Vmavanti (talk) 14:45, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the story; "what else are you going to do in an elevator?" – that's funny! EddieHugh (talk) 12:14, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Sun Ra
What do you think of that long list of musicians in the Sun Ra article? Vmavanti (talk) 19:40, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * First thought: it looks hopelessly incomplete. Second thought: it's introduced with "partial list". Remaining thoughts: some band articles have chronologies that show when members joined and left... they're useful if there aren't many changes, but would be near-impossible in this instance. There's already Category:Sun Ra Arkestra members, which looks like the best place to direct people. Maybe the Arkestra should have its own article, where details of band members could reside (but writing it to a worthwhile level of information would probably be more work than anyone would want to commit to). EddieHugh (talk) 13:27, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Art Tatum
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Art Tatum you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Aza24 -- Aza24 (talk) 02:20, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

The man without a middle name
This is odd. A reader suggests that Archie Shepp has no middle name. I misunderstood what he was asking for: some kind of source that says "This man has no middle name", which is unlikely unless it is in a biography of Shepp. It presents a problem because sources will list him without a middle name because they don't know it, not because they know he doesn't have one. I've never heard of a person without a middle name, have you? It's probably more common that I realized. Well, you learn something every day, right? It's good that this reader pointed it out. Otherwise I never would've known. I'll check the books on my shelves. Let me know if you have any ideas about how to solve this. Vmavanti (talk) 00:07, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Replied there. EddieHugh (talk) 14:29, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * There are literally millions of people who have no middle name. Middle name tells us "The abbreviation "N.M.N." (no middle name) or "N.M.I." (no middle initial), with or without periods, is sometimes used in formal documents in the United States, where a middle initial or name is expected but the person does not have one." There's even a whole book on the subject! lol Martinevans123 (talk) 14:39, 17 March 2021 (UTC) ....like him for example?
 * Does "Jr" count as a name? It adds to the rhythm, helps with distinguishing, and provides a link to others, which must be some of the main reasons that they're handed out. EddieHugh (talk) 22:27, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I guess it must do. Although we don't have many Juniors here in the UK, just a few "Kid"s. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:36, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Art Tatum
The article Art Tatum you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold. The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See Talk:Art Tatum for issues which need to be addressed. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Aza24 -- Aza24 (talk) 05:20, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Art Tatum
The article Art Tatum you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Art Tatum for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already appeared on the main page as a "Did you know" item, or as a bold link under "In the News" or in the "On This Day" prose section, you can nominate it within the next seven days to appear in DYK. Bolded names with dates listed at the bottom of the "On This Day" column do not affect DYK eligibility. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Aza24 -- Aza24 (talk) 08:22, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

I sit in my chair...
Wonderful work on Solitude, thank you. No Swan So Fine (talk) 08:24, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Sometimes I'm filled with despair at the state of what should be developed articles, but there's too much to do, so it's a bit at at time. EddieHugh (talk) 16:09, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Jutta Hipp
I removed one of the citations to Hipp's NYT obituary because it seemed unnecessary as it normal to source a passage to multiple sources. The source you just added to external links queries the end of Hipp's professional career as being in 1958 as claimed by the NYT, but I had not read it at the time I made the edit. However, the "year's active" parameter tends to be used for a subject's professional career in the area of their notability. Her later work in the other NYC boroughs seems to have been semi-professional at best. Philip Cross (talk) 14:11, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The intent/meaning of years active is unclear; I usually take it to be when the person was being paid to be a musician, but that gets unclear, too (full-time/occasional, etc). I'm in the 'citation for every sentence' camp: it reduces the likelihood of unsourced material looking like it's sourced; and it's a basic service to the reader, allowing checks to be made more easily. Thanks for the prose improvements – I had to give up on the article because of a lack of sources, and it was left as it stood after information had been added. EddieHugh (talk) 16:07, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Penguins
Sorry not to have replied sooner, so thought I’d better reply here rather than on my own talk. There’s probably a fine line between perseverance and bloody-mindedness, and it was probably more in the way of diversionary activity during lockdown. Anyway, I think I’ve now covered everything linked from the leader’s main page or discography. There are almost certainly plenty more that weren’t linked. I’ve now started on another Penguin. Brunton (talk) 11:16, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Hasaan Ibn Ali
I do not know whether his page is on your watchlist, but I have just added a link to its talk page, which may be worth exploring. Jazz is just not my thing, but I thought your interest might be stirred. Regards. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 21:37, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I created that article and took it to GA – I like obscure figures! Thanks for the link; it's quite a review – "one of modern jazz's great lost albums"; I'll look to add some bits from it. Incidentally, the person who wrote the liner notes has also contributed here on occasion. EddieHugh (talk) 20:35, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * OK. Well, glad to have been of assistance. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 21:38, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Don Latarski polish
Hiya! I saw you nominated the article for Don Latarski for deletion. I've attempted to improve it slightly by citing external sources and whatnot, so hopefully that's enough to merit it remaining on Wikipedia. Just figured I'd tell ya directly. You have a good day. ^^ -Vulpicula (talk) 23:08, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. A passing mention doesn't help to establish notability, however. The basic requirements are "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject", as detailed at WP:GNG. EddieHugh (talk) 17:17, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Joe Armon-Jones
I would like to put a stop to the creation of orphans like Joe Armon-Jones. This article was created in Dec 2020 by someone with a conflict of interest. That's been made clear. OK, but what I would like to make clear to whomever it may concern is that I don't want to see any more orphans created, particularly a self-interested orphan of a relatively new musician who hasn't recorded much and who is unlikely to be connected to any existing articles. Aside from the annoyance, it's too promotional and there's no end to it. Do you know who I could contact about this? Perhaps the people who helped this person create the article (or any article) should have informed him. Vmavanti (talk) 16:50, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The person who created it appeared to know what to do. The responsibility lies with the person who moved it from a draft. The guidelines for accepting an article are here and don't mention wikilinks, so there's probably nothing that can be done about orphans being created. In this instance, Armon-Jones probably is notable and I've even spotted a possible link. EddieHugh (talk) 18:39, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Open to suggestions
Open to suggestions about how to deal with these characters. Scroll to the end of the page. Vmavanti (talk) 14:16, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I had an early run-in with a similar person. He does a lot of good work, but cooperation and responding well to feedback aren't among his strengths, in my experience. I've avoided him since that time. EddieHugh (talk) 17:21, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

7/7
I love the work you did on the 7/7 page, especially reducing the trainspotter level content. I have done a similar thing in the various UK fire service articles which had become a magnet for original research and excessive detail. I have cleaned up all bar a couple (see my user page) but the odd bit has crept back in, e.g. at Hampshire & Isle of Wight Fire and Rescue Service. Personally I don't think any article should have a list of all the fire stations, shift patterns and appliances at each, but I have left that in place in some, albeit trimmed down somewhat, but the Hampshire article is now a joke having been updated again. If you feel inclined to take a look I would be grateful. If you want to take every table out of every article I wouldn't object! 10mmsocket (talk) 06:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I laughed when I reached the 'Fire appliance glossary / callsigns' section of that page. That's more like an information sheet that must be memorised ahead of a workplace test than something for an encyclopedia. The table can safely be removed, too. Just refer people to WP:NOTEVERYTHING. It's interesting (but not surprising) that the detail-adders exist in lots of parts of the encyclopedia – I'm accustomed to removing mentions of someone's favourite band once having recorded a song. EddieHugh (talk) 13:27, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Every single UK fire article had the same tables before I replaced them (some in a better way than others). I got quite a bit of pushback from the "spotters" some of which resulted in sockpuppet accounts being blocked and pages receiving semi-protection. That article plus the Scottish / NI Fire & Rescue are the only ones that are left. I'll get around to them at some point - but like I say, feel free to have a crack at them if you want to :) 10mmsocket (talk) 15:08, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Now deleted and comment placed on article's talk page. Thanks for the shove in that direction! 10mmsocket (talk) 15:44, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

FYI
Hello! You asked a question of me on my Talk page more than a year ago, and I have no excuse I can give you for why I saw it only today. I answered your question and asked one of you. It is on my Talk page if you want to pop over and have a look. Thank you for your hard work on Wikipedia. God bless and happy editing! MarydaleEd (talk) 19:32, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Stepping
I'm stepping away indefinitely from Wikipedia, though I'm keeping my account and my User Page relatively intact. I want to tie up some loose ends.

First, thank you for your decency, encouragement, and effort. As in the Kipling poem, you kept your head when others were losing theirs. If you are interested in any books, let me know. I will send them to you for free if you can come up with an arrangement that suitably protects your privacy. I have many more books than I listed on my User Page. Some I still like, but there are others I doubt I will use in the future.

If you can get to America, you have a place to stay for free. You only need to pay for the plane ticket. You can contact me through Wikipedia or in a way that suitably protects your privacy. I live near a couple big cities with attractive music venues. I don't attend them because I was never much of a city kid.

As you have no doubt surmised, this isn't a good time to come to America. But I suspect much will be resolved by Christmas, and there will be some extraordinary changes. You might keep an eye on Rick Beato's YouTube channel for some interesting and instructive commentary about music of all kinds.Vmavanti (talk) 17:42, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm sad to hear that. But you must have good reasons, so I wish you well. You've contributed a lot here in several ways. Thank you for the offers – like you say, nowhere's a joy to travel to at the moment, perhaps including one's own mind much of the time. I'll look again at Beato, having got the pronunciation of his name wrong at the first attempt... EddieHugh (talk) 18:05, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Explanation of "case" in main body
Hi, User:EddieHugh. I noticed you took my edit that explained what a "case" is out of the main body of Art Tatum, instead making it a note. My thought would be to put it back in the main body, as many readers of Wikipedia will not look at the note but only scroll through the main text, reading, and miss seeing what a "case" is. I think the info as to what a case is is important for the reader as it really gives them a mental picture of Art's prodigious drinking, and better understanding of his life story, and many won't know what a case is so they won't get that picture. So to me the sentence in parentheses in the main body explaining what a case is should be returned.

Btw, the whole article is really great. Why hasn't it become a featured article? Greg Dahlen (talk) 12:44, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the interest. To me, putting a whole sentence in parentheses is a strong indication that it's peripheral to the main narrative... that's the same as saying that it can be included as a note. As the definition of a "case" isn't about the topic of the article, I think that a note is the best place for it. Unfortunately, the source doesn't elaborate on what a "case" was – perhaps there was a standard at the time – but it's now unclear, as your addition points out, so there's no brief way of clarifying. There are some details I'd like to find and add (particularly recording sessions) before putting it up as a FAC. Most readers won't see the gaps, but I know that they're there. I also know the required source, but the pandemic is restricting access to physical materials. EddieHugh (talk) 14:24, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
 * EddieHugh I don't think it's exactly peripheral. As best I can articulate it, we'd put it in parentheses as a nod to people who already know what a case is. Sort of like saying "We know some people may already know what a case is, and it may irritate them to have it explained here, but there are a fair number who don't know, so we're explaining it." Also put it in parentheses because it's not the standard information in an article which would be accomplishments and analysis, it's explaining a term, but the term is still important to understanding Tatum's life.


 * Putting it in the note isn't terrible. I'm afraid some readers won't hover over the note, and thus will miss getting an understanding of what a case is and thus miss a more accurate mental picture of Tatum's life.


 * Actually the info about some other musician saying Tatum drank a case of beer is weak because we don't know what the musician meant by a case. Could we find a better information "bite" to quantify his drinking? I've looked for one online but so far can't find it.


 * Thanks for your work on this article.


 * I would say it could be nominated for or become a featured article, but you could continue working on it during and after? Greg Dahlen (talk) 06:16, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There are lots of comments about him always drinking and some examples, but nothing else that's (more) specific about 'normal' quantities, hence the use of that one. EddieHugh (talk) 17:17, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Removing album history from David Grisman
Hi User:EddieHugh. I see you removed some history around a few of his albums. These albums were released, and with the stated musicians on them and that was the musical style. Vintage instruments were used for the recordings. I believe these have some important significance and there should be ample verifiable and reliably sourced supporting but I don’t understand why whoever wrote those sections did not cite any sources. Some of this info is stated on his discography for those albums, and references All Music Guide. Do you see an issue if I rewrote those sections and cited All Music Guide? Thanks, Ddab (talk) 23:03, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * That would be great. I removed that text because it had 'citation needed' tags that had been there for over 2 years... that's long enough. I sometimes look for sources instead of removing text, but in this instance the information was detailed, so I didn't. Please do add it back (with citations!) if you have sources that cover all of that information. EddieHugh (talk) 17:38, 19 October 2021 (UTC)