User talk:Ekotkie/Archive 2

monobook.js and ISBN-checking
Hello Ed, If you need to repeatedly check ISBNs, since the SmackBot template is not always there when you want it, there is a slightly tricky way of doing it. It requires you to modify a special file in your user area called User:Ekotkie/monobook.js. Assuming your browser supports Javascript (which most do) then it should allow you to check every ISBN for validity using *one click*. Here are the lines that would need to be added: (you could compare to User:EdJohnston/monobook.js). After adding these lines to your monobook.js file, you would need to 'reload', which is explained to you on the screen when you do the edit. This code comes from User:Lunchboxhero/monobook.js. He discusses it on User talk:Lunchboxhero/monobook.js and occasionally on Wikipedia talk:Book sources.
 * Code triggering spam list removed.

EdJohnston 20:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi, Ed K. See a response on my Talk page. EdJohnston 21:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Leaving notes
Hi Ed, there are three ways you could leave a note:
 * 1) On the talk page.
 * 2) In a comment.
 * 3) In the template comment field.

I see your point about not always quoting the problem ISBN. It also helps because people can fix it and not remove the template, leaving confusion. I'll try to remember to change that before the next run. This run is 3/4 done, and I fix a fair few articles from 3 ISBNs today. Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 22:55 20 December 2006 (GMT).


 * The category data is created on the fly, you can't edit it. We could do something similar to List of pages with Invalid ISBNs. Rich Farmbrough, 10:26 21 December 2006 (GMT).

Arthur M. Young
Hello Ed K. This is the page that you found seven mistakes on! I tried to finish it up, by deleting two of the remaining bad ISBNs, and used a replacement for the third, by switching from a paperback to a hardcover edition. I hope this flies! I left a Talk message on the page in case anyone is annoyed. My initial impression is that Anodos Publications might have messed up. Since these books aren't easy to find on the web, I couldn't find replacements for the bad ones. It's likely that the books were published invalid, in which case it's 95% probable there are no valid replacements, since a publisher re-issuing such a book with a good ISBN is so uncommon. (I know of just one case). EdJohnston 02:58, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Some of the Anodos books had good ISBN's. I expect this was a user error. This has been the worst page I have seen created, from a reference data point of view. When you look up a book on Abebooks with the intention of locating an original, 1st edition, for collecting purposes, you can find many of these pre-ISBN dated books.  I did find an original 1955 book and no ISBN, as expected, was given. Ed, it is a wonder that anyone has the conviction to stick by the use of ISBN.  The system is full of quirks.  It was a lot like how I became aware of what you guys were doing with the ISBN process in the first place.  Rich changed 6 book ISBN's  on a page that I had made. My first reaction was, Who the heck is this guy?  I owned those books in my collection and I knew the ISBN's were correct. BUT, these 6 fell into a number group that was no longer accepted for use in US books.  This is not an easy issue to understand and I seriously doubt that many people understand it.  I am still struggling to understand that fancy number tree that you sent.  Why care about something that happened 25 years ago.  Worry about today and the future.  In my career field we called that "grandfathering".  The majority of issues that Rich's bot is finding today are leading and trailing number s being lost.  I'm glad to be able to correct these and get Wiki on track.  I also appreciate the patience that you and Rich have shown me in getting this done.  Wike folks are great people.Ekotkie 15:14, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: Butvydas
I am not sure I understand what you mean by this edit. Could you elaborate? thanks. Renata 17:32, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Renata, I am one of many folks assisting in the resolution of ISBN cataloging errors. This has been an ongoing project for a long time now in preparation of the transition to 13 digit ISBN's.  A special bot was developed with routines embedded that would ensure that the move to 13 digit ISBN's would be seamless.  (Well, at least that was the plan).  Sadly, the powers to be who run the ISBN process decided to renumber ALL books in existence.  This have created a real mess, in my humble opinion. Be that what it may, our little bot has been going through the entire Wiki system measuring isbn's for various degrees of error ie; too long, too short, etc. Them folks like myself *attempt* to research the books in question and attempt to resolve the errors.  Please use shortcut Cat:invalid and read the effort to date.  We have over 2000 errors to look at.  Please take heart, you are the first person who has questioned my efforts and flag notes that have identified isbn's that are in error.  Rich Farmbrough, is the team leader and the gent who created the bot for this effort.  I have a number of research locations to use to find correct ISBN's.  In some cases, my tools fail me and I then leave a flag note for others who are involved in this effort to continue the search.  In your case, I was unable to locate either the author or the book.  If you have the book in question and the isbn that you used is so cited then we need to pass this information over to Rich.  There may well be a perfectly good reason for why this happened.  I had this happen with 6 books that were over 25 years in publish. Rich will better understand what has happened.  I hope this clears this up somewhat.
 * I didn't quite know where to put this, but I found the book at Libis, and then using the correct ISBN found it at the Library of Congress . Hopefully, this will clear things up.  Andrius  19:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Isn't teamwork great? Thanks a lot. It is even better when Wiki gets the interest of a young person.I tip my hat.Ekotkie 20:32, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Why, thank you very much.  Andrius  22:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for such a detailed response! I know about the ISBN mess. And it was my bad... I mistyped the ISBN. I just was in a hurry and did not notice the message left by the bot. so I decided to ask you what's wrong with the book because I have it right on my desk. But everything is corrected now. Your work is very much appreciated, and I hope you will continue. Renata 19:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * In the bulk of ISBN's that I have corrected, the typical error is a leading or trailing number has been dropped. Sometimes something has gotten transposed.  It is a time consuming task but when people see correct information being preseted to the public, then everyones work effort is worth it.  Thanks for re-checking for that typo.Ekotkie 20:28, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Falun Gong bad ISBN
Hi Ed. Do you already have the proposed fix for the Falun Gong ISBN? I can file a request to have the administrator update the page. Or you can do it by putting the proposed update on Talk:Falun Gong, explaining what you want done, and then add  on the talk page. EdJohnston 03:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, did you just delete a bunch of comments from your page? I was looking for a previous message I had hoped to leave you, but it's gone. Usually most people don't remove (civil) comments except when archiving, unless maybe their own. EdJohnston 03:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I did delete them. It was getting a bit too long.  I had thought about Archive but didn't know how to do it.  Soor.  BTW, speaking of "too long"  Please take a look at Federico Colpi on our list.  I just sent the prime editor of the page a nice note asking for his/her assistance.  It is a total, long mess.  Sorry about the delete.Ekotkie 03:45, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Ed. Do you want me to create a talk archive for you? Then you would not have to delete to save space. EdJohnston 04:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi EdJ. Thanks for the offer.  I wonder since I have opened the corral gate and deleted some of my comm history if it is worth it.  I would like to know how to do that though.  Maybe I should put 2006 stuff away to gather dust.Ekotkie 18:12, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Flag of Australia ISBN correction
Hi Ekotkie. Thanks for trying to fix the short ISBN at Flag of Australia. I changed it back, because it looked like the ISBN you gave was for the second edition in 1985, rather than the 1982 edition mentioned in the reference. However, I then noticed that the 1988 edition is mentioned online with the same ISBN. Is it normal for different editions to have the same ISBN? If so, I'll correct it again. If you correct it in the meantime, please read WP:MOS and don't change the Australian spelling again. Thanks, JPD (talk) 19:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Stand corrected on the English usage. I know better having been involved with the development of the F/A-18 Hornet Fighter program that now is flown in the Aussie AF.  Great crew of folks.  As to the flag issue, I too am sensitive to National standards being also retired Military.  My take on the reference was that it was a newer issue so it would be acceptable plus it came from the government folks. As you have seen, there is a 1988 version with the same ISBN.  The 1982 number was flagged as a Wiki error so I felt it would not be a problem giving the standard an  upgrade. Whenever I do something like that I try to also change the publisher's name and date.  If this was your page and you object to my logic, by all means put back in the 82 "corrected data", No problem.  I am using three cross refs at the moment trying to dent the number of ISBN errors.  One can only hope the original page writers would get involved.  I re-reviewed about 20 novels that I had developed the pages for and found all sorts of errors, (Mostly transposing numbers)....old age, I suspect.  Have a great day.Ekotkie 20:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the replies. I definitely don't mean to challenge your reason for your edit - it's great that people are trying to fix the ISBNs, I just wasn't convinced that this was actually a valid correction. I think tend to think that having the correct edition is more important than having a valid ISBN. There is no guarantee the info being referenced is in the newer edition (there have been a few things left out of the latest edition of the current equivalent publication), and so unless you are fairly sure that we have the ISBN for the 1982 edition, I'd rather not change it. I can understand about the automatic spellchecking - I guess it's just one more thing to be careful about. JPD (talk) 20:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Created a talk archive
Hello Ed K, I went ahead and created a talk archive for you, and moved all comments through Dec. 19 into it. Let me know if this is OK with you. (It's easy for me to undo). EdJohnston 02:55, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No administrative powers are needed. You just create a sub-page under your User_talk, call it whatever you want (e.g. Archive1, Archive2) and then copy various headers and banners that you can borrow from other people's archive files). Unless you object I would like to restore the recently-deleted comments as well. Whenever you feel your Talk page is getting too large, just move the oldest part into the Archive file (via cut and paste). EdJohnston 03:23, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I see, this *e-mailer* is kinda stilted to get used to. I don't like copying things to other peoples pages but have found some comments ignored.  I guess I find it strange to read other people's mail.  (something a gentleman doesn't do, so the old spy guys used to say).  Sure, undelete those comments now that they have a place to go.  Pray tell, what did I ever say in the past that needs repeating?  Hope you haven't uncovered another flub of mine. Haha Have a great day. Ekotkie 16:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I confess that I was using some items on your User_talk as a 'To-do' list. Like the problem with the Doom novels page. I was going to fix that when I got around to it! So far as privacy goes, we have none, get over it ! (just kidding). For truly secret stuff, you can use 'Email this user'. EdJohnston 18:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * By all means add to your list and if I can help in anyway or to clarify any of my encounters, please do not hesitate to ask. Oh yes, to the private e-mail. I have used that but sparingly.  BTW, I am almost through the "F's".  My, what a trudge of tough subjects.Ekotkie 18:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * One other gimmick you can try (if you don't want to copy a long conversation to someone's talk page) is, write a note on your own talk page, then go to the other person's talk, and say 'Please see a note for you on my talk page'. You can even make a link to the specific talk item, if you know how to do that. That way you're sure to get their attention, but the full text remains on your own page. EdJohnston 21:41, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Franklin, Virginia
You just left a note saying that the book, The Timber Tycoons could not be found. Here is a link to the book at the local library. I will check it out again sometime this week to verify that a cited the proper ISBN #. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 19:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Chris, thanks for the note on the Franklin, VA page. I am one of a handful of editors correcting over 2000 ISBN errors. The one in question comes up as short, not incorrect. Many isbn's show up that way. We have been correcting these so that a system robot can them convert them to the new 13 digit isbn's. I would appreciate your efforts to locate the proper 10 digit number. You can edit it in or give it to me and I'll load it. The bot that found the error in the first place, SMACKbot, left a template so citing the error. Once you fix the error, the template needs to be removed along with the "Cannot locate" statement. Then the error flag will go away. I am using some fairly powerful resorces and could not locate the isbn. I did find OCLC codes. As a last resort, we probably would have dropped the bad ISBN and loaded the OCLC #. Thanks for the msg.Ekotkie 21:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * OCLC#, I am unfamiliar with what an OCLC# is, do you have any links or information on resources related to an OCLC#? Thanks! -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 00:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Chris, see OCLC. EdJohnston 03:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Chris, as EdJ (another person in the ISBN correction business)has indicated, OCLC can be found right here on Wikipedia. The term, Online Computer Library Center (OCLC) comes from a library cataloging function.  In many ways it is the system of choice within the world of Librarians. (I happen to be married to one and she just shakes her head at ISBNs and is also on a Wiki page) When you check your local library on this errant ISBN on the "Timber Tycoon" you will probably find that they also have additionally listed the OCLC along with an appropriate ISBN.  I suspect that what has happened is that this is a limited production book dedicated to that area in VA.  I was able to locate it with an OCLC #.  Thank you for your gracious award.  I'm just trying to help out the system and get that final roll over to the 13 digit system finished.  By the way.  I meant to explain a bit more on that number of yours being "short".  What I have found is that a lot of our errant ISBN's seem to experience either the leading or trailing number to be missing and the bot merely marks it as "short".  Thanks again for your assist and have a great day.Ekotkie 04:26, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Qinxue Congshu ISBN

 * http://www.zgsd.net/views.asp?PLUCODE=7805685523003 --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 11:52, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * http://hkall.hku.hk/search/t%7Bu7434%7D%7Bu5B78%7D%7Bu53E2%7D%7Bu66F8%7D/t%7B214b4d%7D%7B213a60%7D%7B21352b%7D%7B214355%7D/13%2C29%2C32%2CB/frameset&FF=t%7B214b4d%7D%7B213a60%7D%7B21352b%7D%7B214355%7D+++43%7B21407b%7D&1%2C1%2C --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 12:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * http://nbinet.ncl.edu.tw/search*chi/t%7B214b4d%7D%7B213a60%7D%7B21352b%7D%7B214355%7D/t12%7B214b4d%7D16%7B213a60%7D18%7B21352b%7D10%7B214355%7D/1%2C2%2C6%2CB/frameset&FF=t12%7B214b4d%7D16%7B213a60%7D18%7B21352b%7D10%7B214355%7D&5%2C%2C5 --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 12:09, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Charlie, I need a little translation here please. I am merely one of a number of editors attempting to resolve over 2000 ISBN errors so that we may electronically convert the older 10 digit system to the newer 13 digit isbn system.  If you are writing in regards to a page that I noted with a, you will note that at the bottom of that page there is also a flag note stating that this flag had an invalid isbn.  If I made an inadvertent correction, please accept my apology.  I am using a number of different research tools in an attempt to resolve isbn's in error.  Please send me the name of the page name that you are asking about or the wikipedia url.  I appreciate your support in resolving this matter.Ekotkie 15:04, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The page in question is the guqin one. I have found and corrected the ISBN (I mistyped one number because it wasn't clearly printed on my copy of the book). --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 15:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I somewhat recognized the cover page. Thank you for your assistance in correcting this matter.  I was only interested in locating a correct 10 digit isbn.  Wiki has a bot ready to go back through the entire library and convert over to the 13 digit isbn.  There still is some concern about making this final move to 13 digit.  I too understand the issue of making a typing error.  I have made a number of them.  Sometimes it comes from attempting to insert the hyphen into their proper location.  I have quit using hyphen's all together.  Most of the large catalog users only give a single string of numbers without hyphens.  A final not, I hope that when you placed the correct isbn into its location that you also removed the error notification template that was originally placed by the reviewing bot.  If you don't remove the template, a "invalid ISBN" statement will appear at the bottom of the page.  Charlie, have a great day and thanks again for your help.Ekotkie 16:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Hong Kong reference
I've searched for some time but that book is not on the HK system or the Taiwan system. I tried the author's name and there was nothing to him name. If this was a newly published book or a book that was published way back, then there would be good reason why it isn't in the system, but this book is only a decade or so back. 'Friad this has defeaten me. --Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 22:03, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Charlie, I thank you for the assist and will duly note yours and my efforts. I tend to suspect a 23 page "book".  It may well have been a thesis paper.  Why it ended up with an ISBN is beyond me.  I'll turn this over to the team leader and press on.  We still have close to 2000 items to check out.  I try to give a good search of foreign but sometimes its just better to have a contact in that language country.  Again, thank you and I'll keep your name in my contact file.  I would rather drop the ISBN all together and leave the source info for some other hardy soul to go dig for.  Have a great day. Ed_KEkotkie 22:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey Ed K, there is no team leader! Just use your best judgment. EdJohnston 04:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Various
Notes for informtion - not necessarily connected in any way.
 * 1) Email.  You can email users using the "email this user" system.  However with talk pages, you get the message when you are on WP which I find helpful, for most things.  Sensitive stuff can always go by email if needed.
 * Oh, I understand and have used this method. Wiki mail is a bit strange as compared to e-mail.
 * 1) Admin.  Anyone can propose anyone for administrator, as I have recently done with User:AzaToth - one of our template geniuses.  I will ask Ed if he's interested.  There's a process which can someitmes be painful for candidates...
 * Well, it wasn't a joke. I feel like he has the right disposition to do a great job. And yes, I understand all too well what you mean by the pain in the process.
 * 1) I tend to scan with SmackBot when a data base dump has been completed.  This means I can pick likely articles to set SmackBot on, last time 'round it was anything with "ISBN" in it.
 * A couple observations about SmackBot. I have been through a bunch of editing and the following may just be flukes butthey have stood out:
 * 1.I have found ISBN errors that SmackBot did not catch. This occurred where ISBN was short and colorwise, was black as opposed to blue when it is correct.
 * 2.I have found the Invalid template placed in the middle of an existing ISBN that may have been correct had it not intersected in the middle like it did.
 * 3.I have found ISBN's that were flagged as bad but located by the same manner through various reliable sources. You have read my "3 strikes rule".  If I found flagged ISBN through my process, I clipped the template and passed it on, as stated.
 * 4. I strongly support removing the invalid ISBN data once it has been reviewed by two people. Leave the book.doc name and author but get rid of the ISBN.  Maybe create an HTML flag note to leave for a page owner, but press on.
 * 1) People often come across as "grumpy" on WP, sometimes they are, but often it's just terse writing. People like you who are a little more relaxed and polite in style generally help defuse situations when they do arise.  Never worry to much about what someone says on WP.
 * I have no axe to grind or in need of a feather in my hat. Being retired gives me great latitude in this respect. I can go take a nap or seek out another project needing my attention.  I am building some small electronic robots to torment my cat and dog (just kidding) I am a bit intrigued by these software bots used here.  I tip my hat to the creators.

Erm that's it for now. Best wishes, Rich Farmbrough, 23:04 12 January 2007 (GMT).
 * Have a great day. We have an inbound ice storm headed for the next two days.  Second one this season. I will batten down the hatches.Ekotkie 01:14, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Please let me know if you spot any SmackBot errors (especially of a new type). Rich Farmbrough, 17:54 13 January 2007 (GMT).

Apopogies
Charles Whitham's 2003 reprint had an incorrect isbn with it - and I have not been able to remove the problem - keesie... has helped resolve the problem and I've been very slack in cleaning up - my apologies SatuSuro 00:35, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you but there really is no need for an apology. I have been repairing errant ISBN's by the hundreds and I can tell you I have seen, learned and even failed to see some of the weird errors associated with ISBN.  My wife, a retired U librarian, just shakes her head as to how ISBN has become such a difficult issue in library science to deal with.  Additionally, I had really not spent any time over in the "W Row" of invalid ISBN's.  Be that what it may, we are all here to make our little contributions, if and how we can.  Just brush it off and press on with your next contribution.  Have a great day. EdK  Ekotkie 02:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh you misunderstand - I am not brushing it off - there is a solution - and I will be going back and making sure the 'cant find' items are out SatuSuro 23:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Same Page
Hi Ed. To tell you the truth I've just been sort of cherry picking. I have followed on some of your work where you have left a comment and deleted some of the invalid ISBNs. I read somewhere that was the thing to do. I always try to find a good ISBN first. You might run across some comments I have left. I've started to leave my user name in the comments so I know if it was me or some one else who was the first editor.
 * Hi Droll. I saw that you were putting your name in the comment line.  That is a good idea and I have started leaving EdK myself.   I objected to using the comment line which is an HTML format.  I started originally with just a text comment in .  This raised the comment up to text level and kept a person from plowing over old ground.  It also alerted a user that the data for that line was in question.  My way voted down. I don't care about the cherry picking.  Help is help.  We need to get it done so that the entire Wiki can the be converted to 13 ISBN via a bot.

I probably will keep to my cherry picking method but I can certainly try to cooperate. I'll stay away from the Ms for now. If you could let me know which letter you're working on from time to time I stay way from where every you are working.
 * Do not hesitate to read the talk page (discussion) on the CAT:INVALID page. I always leave a "Row" status and also to report any oddities that might be encountered

I ran into an edit conflict once already with an editor other than you while working on this project. Kind of frustrating.
 * Name please. If there is one thing we don't need is to get in a conflict. If you run into something that appears unfair, Please do not hesitate to bring it to Rich Farnbrough's attention.  He is admin and a nice guy to deal with.  Please don't waste your time converting to 13.  If you will note my changes, I do all 10's with NO hyphens.  Leave the hyphens to the bot converter.  If you go checking the larger book outfits you will not find any using a hyphen.

I use the ISBN to format numbers. Its an extra set and not really necessary. I just like to do it. It also with return an error if you enter an invalid number. I have found a few invalid numbers on Amazon and other places. I use 10 digit ISBNs almost exclusively. They can be converted by a bot later if necessary to 13 digit numbers. Other than Amazon 13 digit numbers seem to be unimplemented on the web for the most part.
 * Correct. Just an extra step that you could use for a good book location search.

Other than the tools you use I tend to use Google often. Using advanced search makes it is fairly easy to find things. I use  sometimes. Its good when I find a short ISBN that just needs the checksum digit. Its really a marginal tool.

When I deleted an invalid ISBN I try to replace it with and OCLC if possible. (I use Template:OCLC. See Template talk:OCLC or if the editor used Template:cite book I use oclc =) I can sometimes find them at WorldCat. A few times I added an ASIN but I don't anymore unless its the only thing I can find. --Droll 01:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * My bride is a retired U librarian and she used OCLC. OCLC is a standard for folks doing inter-library loans and for research.  It won't serve much of a practical purpose for Wiki. You don't find OCLC in books either.

Thanks for dropping me a note and you are more then welcome to jump into the fray. Two key guys to look for for guidance is Rich and EdJohnson. Pick up their talk page ids off of my page. Again, welcome. EdK Ekotkie 04:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Please
Would you leave the charles whitham references alone? I am trying to sort this out - I have had some delays - I will try to sort it out in the next 24 hours SatuSuro 06:57, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Benefits of OCLC
Hi Ed, thanks for your continued progress! There is no requirement for you to add OCLCs if you don't believe in them. However Keesiewonder did include OCLC as one of the options to consider in her proposed ISBN fixing guidelines (User:Keesiewonder/ISBN Fixing Guidelines). Inclusion of an OCLC number does certify that the book really exists, and it allows the reader to verify book details for themselves, since they can click on the underlined OCLC number and it opens up a list of libraries that hold the book. (Also it allows us as the ISBN-fixers to convince ourselves that the book details that some previous editor left are actually correct). EdJohnston 15:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)



I'd not be too worried about cases where another editor may disagree about a particular book. There are not very many such cases. Myself, I get satisfaction from resolving the very peculiar books and the non-English-language books, but this interest of mine is probably beyond what is truly needed. Overall I think we should care about improving the percentage of WP references that are correct. If we missed out on 2-5 % of the items on our list, we'd still be doing very well. E.g. getting 2500 invalids down to 100 (or fewer) unresolved ones would I think be quite an achievement. EdJohnston

Stubs etc.
Hi, I think the flag is for the country, the book for "novelist". If you think it's no longer a stub, remove the stub designation - in this case I think it's justified. I generally reply on peoples own talk pages (and put the reply on my own for my "records"), and generally look for a reply on mine. Soemtimes I forget and only put the reply on one talk page, meaning to copy it later. I rarely check back on other's talk pages, but I know some people do. Some people put "instructions" on the top of their talk pages. Some people use their watchlists to keep an eye for a reply (see my talk page "Thanks for fixing my mistake!" User:Sebastian seems to have a system for this that changes his signiture). One thing that may help is if you set your signiture to include a link to your talk page. A system that has been tried, and almost works is like the following section, which is shared across both pages, put doesn't trigger the orange mesasge bar, and may not always show updates...

Rgds, Rich Farmbrough, 23:25 19 January 2007 (GMT).


 * "Justified" to leave or remove? I have a bit more to add to that page but I'm trying to be care about encroachment on the authors site.


 * I will have to mull about this mail business. It seems quite haphazard and prone to potential info loss. Not healthy for a "team work environment". For sure I couldn't built an airplane this way. Ekotkie 23:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * "Justified" to leave or remove? I have a bit more to add to that page but I'm trying to be care about encroachment on the authors site.
 * (Justified to remove.) RF
 * I wouldn't call it mail... the Wikimedia software works pretty well for the actual articles, less well for policy and talk.  Despite the  constant improvement the fact that it is still to some extent "string and sealing wax" is shown by the layers of complexity in templates, guidelines, bots etc.
 * Rich Farmbrough, 10:07 20 January 2007 (GMT).

Shared section
Some dummy text for demoing it.

Rich Farmbrough, 23:25 19 January 2007 (GMT).


 * Oh-oh....you just lost me with that term. Ekotkie 23:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry lost a "g" demoing = demonstrating. Rich Farmbrough, 10:08 20 January 2007 (GMT).

Mount Murchison
Fixed. SatuSuro 14:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC) If for any reason you really want to venture into those articles - please apply the same as has been put there - thank you SatuSuro 14:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Is that some sort of "direct order"? Give it a rest.  It has taken you weeks to make a few simple corrections.  Meanwhile I and others like me have made 100's of corrections to the isbn conversion process.  You seem to have a basic problem in accepting the fact that if a page has a reference book cited and if an isbn is used, it is either correct or no isbn should be used.  Any other reference source you care to attach to a reference book is yours to change.  Just do not use and invalid isbn.  Please don't bother me on this subject any further.  Ekotkie 18:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Try reading WP:Civility and WP:Etiquette it might keep you out of trouble, sorry to have even bothered you in the first place SatuSuro 00:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey Ed K! Projects like ISBN-fixing depend on the tolerance of the regular editors for our peculiar activities. It's easy for us to avoid battles by deferring to the regular editors. On my talk page SatuSuro mentioned WP:CIVIL. When I look over people's remarks I notice you're not happy with the situation but I didn't see any bad words on either side. At most, I saw a tendency for SS to own his articles, and a tendency for you to own the ISBNs. WP:OWN applies as much to us as to others.  We don't own the ISBNs, all we can do is try to get a consensus for our changes. You should be willing to listen to whatever SatuSuro has to say, and think of better arguments, if you can. EdJohnston 00:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, when it comes to this guy and his constant delaying tactics in getting this job done and then warning me about approaching "his" articles, he has just hit my short string. I do not consider that "I" own isbn.  I have volunteered to assist in doing a task that is now, past due.  I think I have done a considerable effort based upon the reductions that I have seen and tracked. I am done "listening" to his excuses.  Everyone else who has ever asked me about what was happening with isbn has been very pleased with the work being done and the efforts of all those who have joined in to do it. I will be pleased to see him go away and quietly fix his pages in the recommended manner that he was given.  If you want me to pack my bags, just say the word.  Ekotkie 00:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey Ed K! Projects like ISBN-fixing depend on the tolerance of the regular editors for our peculiar activities. It's easy for us to avoid battles by deferring to the regular editors. On my talk page SatuSuro mentioned WP:CIVIL. When I look over people's remarks I notice you're not happy with the situation but I didn't see any bad words on either side. At most, I saw a tendency for SS to own his articles, and a tendency for you to own the ISBNs. WP:OWN applies as much to us as to others.  We don't own the ISBNs, all we can do is try to get a consensus for our changes. You should be willing to listen to whatever SatuSuro has to say, and think of better arguments, if you can. EdJohnston 00:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, when it comes to this guy and his constant delaying tactics in getting this job done and then warning me about approaching "his" articles, he has just hit my short string. I do not consider that "I" own isbn.  I have volunteered to assist in doing a task that is now, past due.  I think I have done a considerable effort based upon the reductions that I have seen and tracked. I am done "listening" to his excuses.  Everyone else who has ever asked me about what was happening with isbn has been very pleased with the work being done and the efforts of all those who have joined in to do it. I will be pleased to see him go away and quietly fix his pages in the recommended manner that he was given.  If you want me to pack my bags, just say the word.  Ekotkie 00:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Whitham citations
Curious, why did YOU have to fix all of the articles that he has taken such a strong interest in? You obviously went the extra mile and gave him a solution. Why didn't he take that solution and run with it? He seemed to have plenty of time to stir the subject up with anyone who "encroached" on his areas of conncern. Please excuse me for becoming "impatient" with his constant chatter and delays. There are countless articles in Wikiland that do not have completed references(were the term "completed" even definable). That is fine with me. The page owner has given his/her very best to assist others in the knowledge of a reference without using invalid information. So why is SatuSuro so special that he needs special treatment in protecting his articles? By the way, you have used EdJ's page here to respond to things I have talked about to Ed in the past without posting response on my talk page. This crazy talk system is structured bad enough as it is and if one wants their comments acknowledged then they should post those comments in the proper location. If EdJ has accepted the responsibility of receiving all comments, that is great to know and I too will quit sending my responses on correct pages also. Ekotkie 18:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Ed K. I fixed the articles I could find with the solution I proposed since I wanted to. Of course I didn't have to. It was easy for me to do, when I finally had time and it seemed like it might help keep the peace among several good editors here, you, me, SatuSuro and EdJ included. No one is protecting anyone's articles here. As for my not always responding or writing where you'd like me to ... I'm not so sure that it really matters. I expect we have all read everything and either responded or not as we saw fit. If I remember correctly, it started when I was on EdJ's user page for another matter, and I realized that you were basically writing to him about me, without using any names. That's fine, and I posted something in that thread ... and you never responded ... not there nor on my talk page. That's fine with me. If it's not fine with you, then you too can start communicating to me about me on my talk page. I've assumed good faith about SatuSuro, and that seems to have paid off in his and my rapport. I'm doing my best to do so with you too, but don't feel like that is going very well. That's ok. If EdJ has a complaint or concern about something I'm doing, I trust he'll let me know. Kind Regards, Keesiewonder talk 20:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)



Hello all. Just for the record, I have no complaints about anyone at this time! I am amazed that this many ISBNs are getting fixed, and the whole thing got rolling just after Rich F and I got finished scolding Ed K for changing some ISBN the wrong way. In spite of our encouragement, he went ahead and became one of the mainstays of the effort.

If you are afraid that someone won't see your comment that you are leaving on page X (which is not their talk page), you can always use the Keesie trick of posting 'Please see my comment over at [X]', which you can write directly to the talk page of the person you want a response from. EdJohnston 21:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, one more glitch with this stupid system. As I was attempting to answer Kessie's comments, you dropped this on my page and it preempted my comments to her.  I just LOVE this communications tool.  Ekotkie 21:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah ... No worries. I have trouble getting my signature to always take too; drives me nuts. I usually just go back in to the article and re-sign, replacing whatever mess was left there by some auto-sign-complain-bot thing. I, too, hate it when edit conflicts happen. I think what may work best when that happens is to scroll down to the 2nd of the two edit windows, find your text, copy it in to your current buffer, go to the 1st or top of the two edit windows, and paste your edit where you want it, relative to the one you just had an edit conflict with. I have a Bailey's with me right now ... there was a mint chocolate version released around the holidays that I'm still working on. Keesiewonder talk 22:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Interrupted Response
Well, lets see if I can re-created what I lost from the msg. conflict.
 * Hi Ed K. I fixed the articles I could find with the solution I proposed since I wanted to. Of course I didn't have to.
 * Understand, It was just that since he knew where all the skeletons were it "should have been" a snap for him to implement the changes and eliminate the "offensive" invalid isbn cat title. I have explained this to a number of folks and have NEVER received the outcry that he was making.
 * It was easy for me to do, when I finally had time and it seemed like it might help keep the peace among several good editors here, you, me, SatuSuro and EdJ included. No one is protecting anyone's articles here.
 * Sorry, I have not, in any way considered him to be a player in this effort.
 * As for my not always responding or writing where you'd like me to ... I'm not so sure that it really matters. I expect we have all read everything and either responded or not as we saw fit. If I remember correctly, it started when I was on EdJ's user page for another matter, and I realized that you were basically writing to him about me, without using any names. That's fine, and I posted something in that thread ... and you never responded ... not there nor on my talk page. That's fine with me.
 * No, it wasn't fine with me. It was lost communications that I had not found for a week and only then, by accident.  I "assumed" that when someone had something to say to someone that it would be don in a manner where it appeared on their page.  I do NOT ignore people I am working with.  That creates a disruptive atmosphere like someone is trying to hide something.  That is not professional and left unattended, is unhealthy in getting the job done.  At first I found it a bit offensive to be looking at other folks pages.  Later, while the task was being done, it became a distraction.  A lot of you folks work, your time here is a labor of love.  For me, it is an interest in books in general.  I have authored a number of novelist pages here and have developed a close connection with them in the process.  Those who I have communicated with have been very happy to have someone doing this sort of thing for them.
 * If it's not fine with you, then you too can start communicating to me about me on my talk page. I've assumed good faith about SatuSuro, and that seems to have paid off in his and my rapport. I'm doing my best to do so with you too, but don't feel like that is going very well. That's ok.
 * No its not ok. I had no immediate reason to contact you for any direct information but would not have hesitated in doing so. You were off working on a segment of the list that I was not.  We had a little disagreement about that "hiding the comment" business but did I not, immediately, go back and revise my method? Your little "friend" has been a source of aggravation.   His initial note to me was fragmented and didn't make any clear sense.  When I saw that you were handling his needs I just went away.  His next note apologized for using the invalid isbn.  His apology was unnecessary.  I hadn't made one comment to him about it and was reading what all you had discovered along the way.  I'm sorry but I just got impatient with his "apparent" lack of action in closing out these invalid isbn's.  All I ever really told him was that if the isbn was invalid, to make it go away.  There are countless examples of pages with references that don't have an isbn.  Big deal. They do have what reference data is helpful for others to research off of.  I had not asked him to just drop his resource, just the invalid isbn. Instead, he elected to take the approach he took....do nothing.
 * If EdJ has a complaint or concern about something I'm doing, I trust he'll let me know. Kind Regards, Keesiewonder talk 20:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * EdJ will be the first to tell you that he is "not in charge". He is a guide.  I have already asked Rich to consider nominating him to admin level.  He is a good troop. I will be glad when this business is done and I can go back to enhancing author pages.  I am sorry if you may have mis-understood my intentions and position. There never has been an ax to grind or ill feelings.  Have a great day. Ekotkie 00:03, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

From my talk page And I would like to thank the editor Ekotkie for in fact seeing the west coast stubs defended by such elaborate referencing that they are now well insured against rogue Afd crazies - thank you SatuSuro 03:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC) However I am tired of being a scapegoat - please if you have a problem - you should directly say it to the user directly concerned - I am really bored seeing my name constantly slandered. All over a non existent isbn - absurd! SatuSuro 00:28, 27 January 2007 (UTC) Most people on wikipedia have other lives and do other things - and rarely fix up anything in time by the way...SatuSuro 00:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi EdK; I replied on my own talk page. Please take a look some time. Keesiewonder talk 00:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * In fact - the more I look at all of this - if you stay around (dont pack your bags)- and if you actually get the way wikipedia works sufficiently worked out in your thinking - (yeah I know parts look really crazy or irritating) I wouldnt be suprised to see you end up an admin down the line - it looks like you have the tenacity to be a damned fine editor !  Best of luck with that! SatuSuro 00:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Absolutely, No thanks. That would be akin to going back to work and the pay here isn't all that special.  Wiki will just have to remain as a "Work in Progress".  Ekotkie 03:17, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Mouloud Mammeri
30.01.07 What about Mouloud Mammeri, "Bibliography" ? From France, Utilisateur:Michel-georges bernard


 * Hi EdK; I too noticed this and have fixed the page. I have not corresponded with the French gentleman yet though. Hope you have a good day! Keesiewonder talk 10:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Kessie, Please believe me I wasn't sluffing off on that bugger. I just felt like this person needed to get in the game and fix his/her page since it had sooooo many errors.  If he/she had contacted me I would have been more then happy to assist but it was like running into a brick wall.  That is the only one I have ever left like that. Thanks for cleaning up the mess, the owner owes you a big one.  Go back to my page and read the latest one I just got.  It happened before I could even go to the next one on the list.  Now we get automated responses......haha.   I was just fixing to tell EdJ to look at it also.  Have a great one.  I'm about ready to pack it in/.  Cold as all get out here.  I dread what my electric and heating bill will look like.  Later..... Ekotkie 01:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi EdK, I didn't fix any of the ISBN's in this article yet. I adjusted some html code so that the bibliography, invalid ISBNs and all, displayed properly. It was another case of ending an html phrase with ...--text> instead of ...text-->, like what we discussed here. If you look at the link I provided when I opened our current thread, you'll see what I mean. The French guy was asking, I thought, about what happened to the rest of the page, i.e. why didn't he see it any more. Keesiewonder talk 02:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Regarding edits made to Role-playing game theory
Thank you for contributing to Wikipedia, Ekotkie! However, your edit here was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to remove spam from Wikipedia. If you were trying to insert a good link, please accept my creator's apologies, but note that the link you added, matching rule (<|&lt;)!--, is on my list of links to remove and probably shouldn't be included in Wikipedia. Please read Wikipedia's external links policy for more information. If the link was to an image, please read Wikipedia's image tutorial on how to use a more appropriate method to insert the image into an article. If your link was intended to promote a site you own, are affiliated with, or will make money from inclusion in Wikipedia, please note that inserting spam into Wikipedia is against policy. For more information about me, see my FAQ page. Thanks! Shadowbot 01:36, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

OCLC & ASIN
Good morning! Please see my reply at my talk page. Keesiewonder talk 10:19, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

DVDs and ISBNs
Thanks for the note about DVDs. Yea, it looks like we're getting there. I'll have to start looking for something to do next. --DRoll 04:45, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No problem. Just an observation from my own DVD collection.  I am not too impressed with the ISBN process.  Neither is my retired University librarian wife.  I fully understand the need to catalog and control books but far too many people don't bother to learn about the system and abuse the heck out of it.(As we have seen)  I've tried to learn and even I had my moments with this lame conversion process to 13.  Rich, here, did a marvelous job with the bot and EdJ was a great "moderator and fixer".  Even so, we all saw some weird things pop up.  As for things to do, if you really like books like I do, go grab yourself some authors and improve their pages.  I have 24 authors whose pages I monitor and try to improve.  I've created 6 author pages that were not here and in the process have talked to these same authors as the pages were developing.  All have been great and very happy that their book history was being captured.  There is plenty of stuff to do if you look around.  If you do get into these author pages, I highly recommend that you become familiar with the Library of Congress (LoC)I keep a large 3-ring binder here at my desk with copies of stuff on all the authors that I work on.(CYA) Have a great day and jump in, the water is fine. Ekotkie 02:36, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

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 * Wikipedia in the news: Reports of Wikipedia's imminent death greatly exaggerated, and more
 * Discussion report: Discussion Reports and Miscellaneous Articulations
 * Features and admins: Approved this week
 * Arbitration report: The Report on Lengthy Litigation
 * Technology report: Bugs, Repairs, and Internal Operational News

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== Wikipedia Signpost <span style="color:#666; font-variant: small-caps; font-size:80%; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">: 24 August 2009 ==


 * News and notes: $500,000 grant, Wikimania, Wikipedia Loves Art winners
 * Wikipedia in the news: Health care coverage, 3 million articles, inkblots, and more
 * Discussion report: Discussion Reports and Miscellaneous Articulations
 * Features and admins: Approved this week
 * Arbitration report: The Report on Lengthy Litigation
 * Technology report: Bugs, Repairs, and Internal Operational News

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== Wikipedia Signpost <span style="color:#666; font-variant: small-caps; font-size:80%; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">: 31 August 2009 ==


 * Flagged protection and patrolled revisions: Misleading media storm over flagged revisions
 * Flagged protection background: An extended look at how we got to flagged protection and patrolled revisions
 * Wikimania: Report on Wikimania 2009
 * News and notes: $2 million grant, new board members
 * Wikipedia in the news: WikiTrust, Azerbaijan-Armenia edit wars
 * Discussion report: Discussion Reports and Miscellaneous Articulations
 * Features and admins: Approved this week
 * Arbitration report: The Report on Lengthy Litigation
 * Technology report: Bugs, Repairs, and Internal Operational News

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The Wikipedia Signpost: 21 September 2009

 * From the editor: Call for opinion pieces
 * News and notes: Footnotes updated, WMF office and jobs, Strategic Planning and more
 * Wikipedia in the news: Wales everywhere, participation statistics, and more
 * Discussion report: Discussion Reports and Miscellaneous Articulations
 * WikiProject report: WikiProject Video games
 * Features and admins: Approved this week
 * Arbitration report: The Report on Lengthy Litigation
 * Technology report: Bugs, Repairs, and Internal Operational News

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The Wikipedia Signpost: 28 September 2009

 * Opinion essay: White Barbarian
 * Localisation improvements: LocalisationUpdate has gone live
 * Office hours: Sue Gardner answers questions from community
 * News and notes: Vibber resigns, Staff office hours, Flagged Revs, new research and more
 * Wikipedia in the news: Stunting of growth, Polanski protected and more
 * Discussion report: Discussion Reports and Miscellaneous Articulations
 * WikiProject report: WikiProject National Register of Historic Places
 * Features and admins: Approved this week
 * Arbitration report: The Report on Lengthy Litigation
 * Technology report: Bugs, Repairs, and Internal Operational News

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The Wikipedia Signpost: 5 October 2009

 * New talk pages: LiquidThreads in Beta
 * Sockpuppet scandal: The Law affair
 * News and notes: Article Incubator, Wikipedians take Manhattan, new features in testing, and much more
 * Wikipedia in the news: Wikipedia used by UN, strange AFDs, iPhone reality
 * Discussion report: Discussion Reports and Miscellaneous Articulations
 * WikiProject report: New developments at the Military history WikiProject
 * Features and admins: Approved this week
 * Arbitration report: The Report on Lengthy Litigation
 * Technology report: Bugs, Repairs, and Internal Operational News

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The Wikipedia Signpost: 12 October 2009

 * From the editor: Perspectives from other projects
 * Special story: Memorial and Collaboration
 * Bing search: Bing launches Wikipedia search
 * News and notes: New WMF hire, new stats, and more
 * Wikipedia in the news: IOC sues over Creative Commons license, Wikipedia at Yale, and more
 * Dispatches: Sounds
 * Discussion report: Discussion Reports and Miscellaneous Articulations
 * WikiProject report: WikiProject Tropical cyclones
 * Features and admins: Approved this week
 * Arbitration report: The Report on Lengthy Litigation
 * Technology report: Bugs, Repairs, and Internal Operational News

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The Wikipedia Signpost: 19 October 2009
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 * News and notes: WikiReader, Meetup in Pakistan, Audit committee elections, and more
 * In the news: Sanger controversy reignited, Limbaugh libelled, and more
 * Discussion report: Discussion Reports and Miscellaneous Articulations
 * Features and admins: Approved this week
 * Arbitration report: The Report on Lengthy Litigation
 * Technology report: Bugs, Repairs, and Internal Operational News

The Wikipedia Signpost: 26 October 2009
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 * Interview: Interview with John Blossom
 * News and notes: New hires, German Wikipedian dies, new book tool, and more
 * In the news: Editor profiled in Washington Post, Wikia magazines, and more
 * Discussion report: Discussion Reports and Miscellaneous Articulations
 * Features and admins: Approved this week
 * Arbitration report: The Report on Lengthy Litigation
 * Technology report: Bugs, Repairs, and Internal Operational News

The Wikipedia Signpost: 2 November 2009
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 9 November 2009
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 16 November 2009
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 23 November 2009
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 30 November 2009
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 7 December 2009
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 14 December 2009
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 21 December 2009
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 28 December 2009
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 1 January 2010
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 11 January 2010
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 18 January 2010
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 25 January 2010
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 1 February 2010
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 8 February 2010
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 15 February 2010
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 22 February 2010
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 1 March 2010
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 8 March 2010
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 15 March 2010
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 22 March 2010
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 29 March 2010
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 5 April 2010
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 12 April 2010
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 19 April 2010
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The Wikipedia Signpost: 26 April 2010
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