User talk:Electron9/Wiki-PR

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Hold the Speedy
By speedy deleting this is looks to me awfully like wikipedia is trying to hide something. AfD would be more appropriate to get a wider opinion. SFC9394 (talk) 18:42, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * +1 insightful. 124.149.84.225 (talk) 01:57, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * +1 Electron9 (talk) 06:36, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

As a note
I'm certainly going to avoid editing the article, and am not going to express a real opinion as to whether or not it should exist, but Priceline wasn't the only organization that replied to Martin's emails confirming they had used Wiki-PR's services. Colorado Technical University was also named in the VICE article. I would encourage people to not lash out against the articles of Wiki-PR's clients (many of them are named at the SPI/LTA and elsewhere,) as I truly believe many of their clients were unaware they were violating our norms. Kevin Gorman (talk) 07:20, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Otoh, wikipedia can't be blamed for their poor judgment on their part. Electron9 (talk) 07:29, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Perfectly true, and I think we should bring up the articles Wiki-PR wrote to our standards, or delete them when necessary. I would just prefer to avoid seeing the revenge-style editing that occasionally happens when a company transgresses our norms.  I've talked to a lot of Wiki-PR's clients, and most of them, while ignorant, were well-intentioned. (I haven't started personally repairing articles yet, because I'm waiting to see what happens with WMF, arbcom, functionaries, etc.  Plus, repairing all the articles on my list of what they've edited would take quite a while anyway, heh.) In a nutshell, I think we should treat them like we would treat our other articles; bringing them up to our content standards and deleting non-notable ones. Kevin Gorman (talk) 07:50, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * It's up to the involved parties to prove their intentions and the associated redactions may in fact them self be of interest. Which companies that made use of these services is something that should be clarified. Electron9 (talk) 09:57, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

This talkpage
We need to discuss the article here, not the business ethics, real or imagined, nor Wikipolitics. Please let us constrain ourselves to creation of a good, decent, unbiased article. Fiddle  Faddle  10:25, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * If this is related to my comments above, I'd like to point out that I did point out a factual error in the article that still hasn't been corrected :p. In a high profile case where revenge editing is likely to occur, I also see nothing wrong with requesting people refrain from doing so on the talk page of an article involved. The article for some reason also uses internsushi as a source, which both fails WP:RS, and is incorrect. (I'm refraining from editing this article directly for fairly obvious reasons.) Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:09, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It was not related to anyone's comments here in any direct manner. I would have been explicit had it been. I simply see the potential for a huge mess if we do not, ourselves, uphold the standards of this place, both in articles and in their respective talk pages. It is clear that there is an issue with Wikipedia and this organisation and similar organisations. Equally it is clear that this issue should be dealt with quietly and factually in the article if relevant and on the talk page if necessary. Acting in any different manner would be inappropriate.
 * The issue itself is being discussed elsewhere, which is, in my view, as it should be. A conclusion will be reached there. Interestingly, using Wikipedia as a citation for itself in discussing that issue within this article would be using an unreliable source. We have, therefore, a set of interesting article writing dilemmas to face. That was the basis of my message. Fiddle   Faddle  23:18, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Where is this "is being discussed elsewhere" ? Electron9 (talk) 09:41, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There is a banner at the head of the pages on WP which has details of a major discussion of Wikipedia and paid editing. I have dismissed it for myself, so can no longer see the location, though I did contribute to it. I commend the discussion to you. Perhaps someone would be kind enough to add the link to it here? Fiddle   Faddle  09:48, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Notability
As a company, Wiki-PR doesn't seem to be notable on its own and doesn't pass WP:CORP. This article seems to be more about the kerfuffle around the Morning277 sockpuppet investigation than the company itself. I don't dispute that the incident received significant coverage in reliable sources, so I propose we move this article to a title that focuses on the editing controversy itself, as it would better reflect the content here. I'm thinking something along the lines of Wiki-PR editing scandal or Wiki-PR sockpuppet controversy. Gobōnobō + c 00:46, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree.-- Vigyani talkਯੋਗਦਾਨ 05:53, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * WIth the caveat that Wikipedia reporting upon Wikipedia feels rather like condoning incest, I half agree, but suggest we consider widening it to include all paid editing. Fiddle   Faddle  08:19, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * We do have an article for conflict-of-interest editing on Wikipedia. Gobōnobō  + c 11:14, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I was unaware of that, and have started a discussion on the talk page there about the concept of a merge of this article into it. The merge banner on the article(s) leads to that discussion directly. To me it appears to be an ideal home, and also a great place for the discussion. Fiddle   Faddle  11:23, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Now that readers find out about this army of socketpuppys that perhaps is directed by a small company. They will most likely want to find out what this formally small company with huge consequences is. So make a article on paid bad editing, but link here. Notability is not always straightforward. And removing this article is of course a self serving interest for this company.. Electron9 (talk) 19:03, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * While I understand the points you are making, WIkipedia is not a news medium, but is a rather staid and sedate encyclopaedia. Wiki-PR is a PR company. If it is inherently notable it should have an article, but that article must not be a WP:COATRACK, which this one is at present. Fiddle   Faddle  23:34, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

sources & factual accuracy
Please guys, pay close attention to both the quality of sources you use and what the sources actually say. Wiki-PR doesn't have 45 employees, doesn't have two offices, and the 'Wikimedia Foudation' didn't block anyone's user account. The community of the English Wikipedia did. Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:05, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you cite what the sources are saying on the employees and the offices then? All I could find and cite was from their website, which should be alright as I have been somewhat using the JESS3 article for assistance in improving this page as a "PR" article instead of the current one.  --Super Goku V (talk) 00:13, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * They previously had an office in SF, they now do in Austin. You will find some old social media postings etc that reference their SF office, but it no longer exists (and isn't mentioned in the source cited.) Per WP:SPS, self published sources are only acceptable without caveat for claims that are not unduly self-serving, are not exceptional claims, and where we have no reason to doubt their veracity.  Claiming they have 45 employees including Wikipedia administrators is an exceptional claim that we have plenty of reason to doubt the veracity of, hence wiki-pr.com is not a RS for the statement that they have 45 employees. Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:18, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * You are correct that the info isn't listed in the source since I used the wrong one. (Figures.)  The line I am referring to on that page is, "Adam manages sales and business development from Wiki-PR's office in San Francisco, California."  You did mention that they did close their SF office, so I will try to dig that up.  For the second part, why can we say that they have 25 employees, but not 45 specifically?  (Some of those employees likely don't have any Wikipedia experience, but do have something that benefits their organization.)  --Super Goku V (talk) 00:30, 23 October 2013 (UTC)


 * As a general note, this article is an annoyance for several commercial entities so any editing or suggestion to do so should be viewed with this in mind. Electron9 (talk) 00:40, 23 October 2013 (UTC)