User talk:Elinruby/Archives/2023/February

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Cool tools
Check this out.

There's also this other tool: try Vichy France, or Impeachment of Dilma Rousseff Mathglot (talk) 09:05, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Could you merge French material at Collaboration with the Axis Powers?
Hi, I was looking over Collaboration with the Axis Powers and saw a brief résumé of Vichy politics that covers more briefly the ground previously treated at Collaboration with the Axis Powers.

If I had the patience and expertise, I could try merging the material myself, but I'm sure that you, being far more knowledgeable than I about Vichy, could do a far better job. (Also I'm lazy.)

Nothing stops you, of course, from merging the other two paragraphs covering Denmark and Greece. See the article's talk section.

Regards—— Shakescene (talk) 19:42, 12 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Answered you there. Will let it sit a day or so in case somebody objects, but I don't see why they would Elinruby (talk) 21:08, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I just reworked the beginning of a paragraph about the post-war consequences, beginning:
 * "Some few collaborators (such as Paul Touvier) were tried in the 1980s for crimes against humanity. René Bousquet (who was rehabilitated after the war and later regained some influence in French politics, finance and journalism) was prosecuted in 1991 for deporting Jews, but was assassinated in 1993 just before his trial would have begun...."
 * Does this look accurate to you?
 * —— Shakescene (talk) 21:28, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Also re-looked at the immediately-following sentence, a little mystifying in English, although it no doubt makes sense in French or the writer's own language:"Maurice Papon, who had become after the war prefect of police of Paris (a function in which he illustrated himself during the Paris massacre of 1961) was convicted in 1998 for crimes against humanity."
 * How does one illustrate oneself in a function? (There was a 1960's novel called The Illustrated Man in English). Was the sought word perhaps distinguished ?
 * Perpexèdly yours —— Shakescene (talk) 21:36, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

"Distinguished" sounds right. On the French side I just saw the word "retentissant", resounding as in a bell or clarion, applied to his trial. The other questions will take some clicking around to answer Elinruby (talk) 23:37, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

(more about this section as a whole)
After editing the France section yet again, I see some balance problems (inevitable as specialists in different fields contribute to a page). There's a long paragraph about ship-builders, and others about the Holocaust, the LVF, and the colonies. But nothing about the STO (Service du Travail Obligatoire), which is a classic case of the effects of Vichy's  rarely-successful attempts to placate and appease the occupiers, in often-vain hopes of winning some crumbs (in this case, for a relative handful of French POW’s).

There are, as you can perceive, similar gaps about political, corporate, intellectual and artistic collaboration.

We don't want to rewrite the whole Vichy article (q.v. it to readers), but if you can fill in some of the gaps, it might help.

Happy Valentine's Day

—— Shakescene (talk) 04:59, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking there is too much about the shipyards, but saw nothing obvious to cut. And yeah, I know STO, can do that at least. Would also suggest the Milice, much more interesting. Also SNCF strike, but that's the opposite of collaboration Elinruby (talk) 05:06, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Currently referencing going down the page, am at Czechoslovakia. Will add Milice and STO when I get to France. Elinruby (talk) 05:09, 15 February 2023 (UTC)


 * also maybe a sentence about the constitutional crisis that put Pétain in power, what do you think? Elinruby (talk) 05:14, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Since you ask — and while I don't immediately recall the details of Reynaud's fall (although chapter 10 of Churchill's Their Finest Hour covers it from the British end, including the abortive Anglo-French Union) — I think that question hinges on what was the last gasp of resistance, what was internal French collapse and whether seeking an armistice is the same as beginning collaboration.
 * On the other hand, you might need such a sentence or two about the fall of the Third Republic and the birth of The French State to make the subsequent collaboration clearer.
 * Admiration and regards as ever —— Shakescene (talk) 05:34, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * And yes, something about the Milice (and Cagoulards, Police Nationale, etc.) would, apart from balancing this section, clarify for the unfamiliar reader the nature of Vichy as half-willing surrogate of the Reich and make my sentences about post-war reprisals more understandable. —— Shakescene (talk) 05:42, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Blush. Will need to look up the details but basically the Third Republic resigned rather than sign the armistice. Not foreseen in the constitution, thus crisis. Legislature (?) appoints Pétain,a WW1 hero for having saved French lives. He is supposed to appoint a Constituent Assembly but does not. No provision in the law that appointed him to make him do that. Perhaps senile? Constitution crisis redux. Will work on summarizing this. Elinruby (talk) 05:48, 15 February 2023 (UTC)


 * “Nous, Philippe Pétain, ...” —— Shakescene (talk) 12:40, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Pardonnez-moi, mon Maréchal: "Nous, Philippe-Marie Pétain" —— Shakescene (talk) 15:09, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Fell asleep before I got to this but I did find quite a good reference for one of themore general statements and even included a quote (which I don't usually do) about how in Laval's mind this was a trade-off between French POW lives vs otherized lives. I have lunch plans but can come back to this late-afternoonish (Pacific). Elinruby (talk) 18:16, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

yanno... Really, we don't need Battle of Madagascar (not collaboration) or DeGaulle's trip to Africa (there is a moral decision there but shouldn't it be under the country in question?)... Except barely possibly as background, no? And is forced labor collaboration? Elinruby (talk) 23:51, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * After a brief once-over, I tend to agree with you on both points:
 * The shipbuilders' paragraph is so confusing at first or on tenth reading — so many dates, so many details — that it's hard to pluck out nuggets about either collaborationist shipyards or collabo shipbuilders. And in a section where many important elements of collaboration are either omitted or reduced to a single sentence or two, I doubt that this particular subject (important though it might have been to the U-Boat campaign) needs much more than a mention or statement. (Even in the fields of military-industrial collaboration, there's no mention of the French involvement in the U-Boat pens, the Atlantic Wall, or the V-1 & V-2 launching-pads.) If there's no article now (on anglophone Wikipedia or perhaps even in Wikipédie) on military-industrial, commercial and financial collaborationism, in either France, Occupied Europe or whole empires, perhaps someone well-versed in the subject (not me! and I'm not volunteering you) should start one, perhaps with a subsection on managing the labor supply and workers' reactions to industrial mobilisation.
 * As for the colonial Empire, a mention should be made in relations to the metropolitan Vichy governnment, with a general list of areas affected (Africa, Caribbean, etc.), but the missing work should be in the relevant continental sections of the article outside Europe. Collaboration in Indochina can probably be slightly expanded. Syria and Lebanon, (and for Britain) Egypt and Palestine (the Grand Mufti) are not mentioned. The place for African collaborationism should go into new subsections of the Africa section (North Africa, AOF-AEF & while it lasted, Madagascar). And so forth.
 * Don't take any of this as a plea (let alone a demand) for you to do more original work than the vast amount you've already undertaken (they should triple our wages in Occupation francs). My own chiefly-editorial contributions pale in comparison. And now I, in the Eastern Time Zone, need to get some sleep. Cordially, —— Shakescene (talk) 03:00, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Cham Albanians in Greece and Balli Kombëtar
¶ Another head-scratcher as I was lazily skimming the Greek section: the original text said the Cham Albanians worked under the "Resistance Balli Kombëtar". But digging back through the Wikilinks, I see that the Balli were apparently more often (but not always) allied with the Germans and Italians. So I deleted "Resistance" but couldn't think of an appropriate substitute descriptor. Did the OP (or translator) mean something like "guerrilla"? —— Shakescene (talk) 01:23, 14 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Hmmm I may not be able to tell, depending on what language it is translated from, but I was just now trying to reference the Belgium section of that article, let me take a look Elinruby (talk) 01:28, 14 February 2023 (UTC)


 * side comment: pronouns are among the most frequent machine translation errors. so I suspect you may be right. Elinruby (talk) 01:29, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

looking at the Kombëtar page, it looks like they were nationalists who wanted to be independent and chose the devil they didn't know once that option was no longer on the table (?) Note that this is based on a wikipage not RS, and is thus tentative Elinruby (talk) 01:36, 14 February 2023 (UTC)


 * (after more clicking) so...I think you were right to delete "Resistance". I am completely devoid of topic knowledge, mind you, but it looks like "resistance" is true in the sense of fighting a previous dictator, making this one of several countries that greeted the Nazis as liberators from a dictator. (4th of August Regime in this case) LMK if you find out otherwise? Elinruby (talk) 01:49, 14 February 2023 (UTC)


 * since I don't seem to have finished my thought above, I am thinking that they were "resistance" to the Greek occupation, not the Nazis, the usual scope of the word in modern English. Likely a translation from Albanian or Greek or Macedonian (?) Elinruby (talk) 02:53, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

List of scandals in Brazil
I started Draft:List of scandals in Brazil because we have similar articles for Argentina, Chile, UK, Germany—you name it, but not for Brazil, which seems like a big oversight. But I won't be able to develop it and get it ready for launch. Can I hand it off to you? I don't think it's too far off, just a few more references, maybe a few more scandals, especially if you know of any from the 50s, 60s, and 70s, and then it's ready for main space. If you're too busy, no worries, just lmk and I'll mention it at the Brazil WikiProject, and hopefully someone will pick it up there. Maybe Paulo S would be willing to help; he may know of some scandals that we don't, because they're not as well publicized in the Anglosphere. Mathglot (talk) 07:36, 13 February 2023 (UTC)


 * juicy morsel I though you might appreciate from Paulo Maluf: "So notorious is Maluf's reputation that in Brazil the verb malufar was created, meaning "to steal public money". This verb is also sometimes used outside Brazil, with one example being the French newspaper "Le Monde". " Elinruby (talk) 02:37, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Malufar, that truly is a juicy tidbit, thanks for that! Do you want to take it on, or should I advertise it at the project? Mathglot (talk) 02:40, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see you've started on it already; that was fast! Thanks! Mathglot (talk) 02:42, 14 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I am having fun but if a Brazilian is interested, they will clearly be more qualified. OTOH they may want to just review for accuracy and omissions, for which we clearly aren't ready. Scandals seem to be very thick on the ground, dating back to early colonial times, if one is to believe Corruption in Brazil. I guess advertise, but emphasize that we know it's very incomplete. Elinruby (talk) 02:48, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, is this something that you would be interested in helping out with? We need additional references (in any language) for the existing list items, and also, anything we might have missed in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s which maybe isn't as well-known or reported in English media, as it would have been in Brazilian media. This is a draft of a list article; I'm not sure if you are familiar with the "List article" concept at en-wiki; you can read about it here. Each bullet item can be very brief—a single sentence or two is enough—and if possible, it should contain a link to some other article that discusses it more in detail, preferabley in English, otherwise linking to a Portuguese article via template ill. If you are interested, please see Draft:List of scandals in Brazil. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 03:38, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, . Is a very hard work, and I can help as possible. I had made some improvents in Elinruby draft. As ever, my apologies for my poor English. The categories Escândalos de corrupção no Brasil and Escândalos políticos no Brasil also can be useful (are more complete that respective en interwikis). As possible I will try to get the references. Thanks !--PauloMSimoes (talk) 13:35, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * thank you very much. And please, there is no need to apologize for your English; my Portuguese is much worse. I will take care of the English, no worries. Free to ping me. Elinruby (talk) 18:10, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * }

Fresh scandal (Jan 2023), corporate page not updated yet: Lojas Americanas Elinruby (talk) 03:52, 14 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Also this doesn't seem to have a catchy name yet, but would have been enabled by Bolsonaro...pretty sure some kickbacks would have been involved. Also boatloads of stuff about illegal logging and slash and burn. Belo Monte, Funai good search terms. Going to go look for better sources for that than mongobay, also Maluf as mayor of São Paulo. Also, there was an Operation something or other on the spinoffs of OCW that had something to do with mining and indigenous people Elinruby (talk) 04:02, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, sometimes there's no accepted name in English, and we have to pick a WP:NDESC title.
 * Btw, I dropped two "historiabrasileira" references from the draft; they were WP:CIRCULAR references from online sources that were copied from Portuguese Wikipedia, and therefore unreliable. Whatever source they were copied from, they should also be dropped from that article .Mathglot (talk) 04:46, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That's recent enough that I should be able to figure that out. Good catch. Elinruby (talk) 04:52, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I only saw one. There were two urls because it was archived. Just mentioning that in case I missed something, which is of course always possible. The one I saw was from the history section of Corruption in Brazil, and I did replace that one with a cn tag Elinruby (talk) 05:07, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You're right, just one plus the archive. I was trying to keep up and help out a bit, but it's just delaying the glossary, which is delaying the criminal law stuff, so I'll leave it in your hands! (But I probably won't be able to resist popping back in from time to time; can't wait to see it launched.) Not that far from it now, I'd say, although if Chile had all those scandals in the 19ths century, surely Brazil did, too? Mathglot (talk)
 * A lot to unpack there. 1) it was a good catch; I was just making sure. 2) I am nerding out on this for the moment, as it's fast amusing work, mostly cut & paste, but I will be back to Admin law, Jublains, Ladakh, Vichy, legality, etc 3) that was my thinking in trolling History of Roraima. I am going to do other states next. 4) I ignored some stuff about slave-catching, on the theory that it probably wasn't a scandal at the time. But soldiers killed by indigenous people probably counted, hmm? Elinruby (talk)
 * I did see some stuff about 18th-century scandals involving the Catholic Church that I wasn't willing to parse just then; downloaded a couple JStor articles. Also something about the emperor Elinruby (talk) 08:51, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually, your comment is very apt, and good timing, too; because in thinking about some of the incident, it occurred to me we should think about what actually counts as a scandal. Some things can be pretty awful (war crimes, slavery, repression of women or minorities; one could go on...) and yet they aren't called "scandals", usually; so what counts as one? At first, I thought we might need a definition statement, but actually, I think we don't: I think we should simply rely on what the secondary sources say; if sources call it a scandal, then it is, and if they don't (or only a tiny minority) then we shouldn't either. So in the end, we don't even have to define it. Mathglot (talk) 08:59, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

taking a break, eyestrain kicking in. Probably back later, unsure, but if you want to reformat/edit something now is a good time. Or not. There is no deadline, etc. Still have a million windows open, but what else is new? Going to rest eyes and talk to the cat. Elinruby (talk) 10:31, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There's an awful lot of scandal in Brazil ! —— Shakescene (talk) 04:33, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * very thick on the ground, which is why it's ironic that this list does not exist yet. Feel free to Google around if bored. Lots and lots of English-language sources....you know you want to  Elinruby (talk) 04:40, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Shakescene Not really; check out List of political scandals in Chile; and that's limited to political ones. Mathglot (talk) 04:46, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * but MG, I don't think anyone sung that "There's an Awful Lot of Coffee in Chile" ;-) —— Shakescene (talk) 11:02, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Enjoy the cat. Btw, turns out there is a name developing for the Amazon miner issue, and it's in the url you linked: "Yanomami Shield". Well, actually, maybe not; that seems to just be the name for the protection operation by the government, to stop the humanitarian scandal caused by the miners, so maybe it doesn't actually have a name, yet. But if you search for, you'll find lots of stuff about it in English, or   to get Portuguese results; this is the operation to restore order, not sure the scandal has a name. Now I'm on break for a while. Mathglot (talk) 11:25, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Manoel Beckman,Ragamuffin War, Acre -- Brazil breaking treaty by 1000 km? mi? Elinruby (talk) 14:03, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

A kitten for you!
Verification is one of the hardest things to do on Wikipedia, IMHO. Thank you for trying to tackle this issue! I hope this kitten will help you destress from the hard work. Keep up the good job!

Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:32, 19 February 2023 (UTC) 