User talk:Elinruby/Archives/2023/July

Re
. Given things in arbitration (i.e. they can punish users for supporting each other), I would like to ask you not ping or otherwise invite me to any pages. Among other things, editing here distracts me from work. Also, I need to be very careful with editing in EE area, or perhaps not be active in this area at all and rather edit something closer to my actual area of expertise. Good luck with improving these pages! My very best wishes (talk) 23:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)


 * So don't ping you about anything in eastern Europe? I hear you. No problem. I would like to know if the lyrics to the truck driver song you posted once are available anywhere, however. And I just -- ugh. I think they need to be really careful in terms of what changes they make to the reliable sources policy and they are setting a terrible precedent by sanctioning people for stuff that somebody half-remembered somewhere. I wonder if it would be appropriate to enquire into their methodology, because I am not able to reproduce their results. They are putting it in the same category as GCB showing up to make clueless comments I think. I disagree but nobody is listening to me about that, or the sourcing either, as far as I can tell. No reply is required. I do agree that this is the safest course for you even if I for one think it is a loss for everyone. 00:15, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * that -. ? This is ru:Дубовский, Вадим Владимирович. There is no methodology, there are no rules, that's the thing. I am reading their comments, such as or . They tell a lot. Whatever. Now I know how wrong I was by commenting out there. My very best wishes (talk) 02:43, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It makes me sad that I can't see how you are wrong to feel that way. Current mood. More later. Elinruby (talk) 04:45, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Ultimately, arbitrators are imposing sanctions to improve editing environment, so that improvement of content can proceed better. Does a specific sanction serve that purpose? I will speak hypothetically here. For example, two contributors making hostile conversations on public forums like RSNB recently? I would say yes, this creates a hostile environment. An action is warranted. Same contributors making such conversation a year or two ago, but behaving peacefully since then? I would say no, making their interaction ban will not improve the current editing environment, rather just the opposite. Same apply to everything. Timing and the recent behavior by people is critical here (as reflected in instructions for WP:AE). Should a contributor be warned prior to making a serious sanction, especially when he/she may reasonably believe they are not doing anything problematic? I would say yes, absolutely - for the purpose of improving the editing environment. In most cases, such user do follow an advice from an admin. But this is just my personal understanding, and I am not an admin. My very best wishes (talk) 14:23, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I typed out a long answer yesterday that said pretty much what you just did, then my browser crashed, then came back this morning and my battery ran out mid-sentence. I am perturbed by the proposed decision on several levels that go beyond editors, where the effects are bad enough. I think Barkeep has done a pretty good job -- better than I expected actually -- but the problem is that one or more of the committee has their mind already made up. Let me send this now before something else happens, so you know I am not ignoring you, and then go catch up on the FR and Levivich saga before I comment further either here or there. Elinruby (talk) 23:15, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * One of important aspects with creating good working environment is minimizing disruption and waste of time for other contributors. For example, I commented during the arbitration, and that resulted in waste of time for other people, even though it was unintentional on my part. That was unacceptable, and I must do everything to prevent any other future disruption. How to do it is a personal choice. Probably the best solution for me is to at least temporarily retire from the project and leave the issues to community. Happy editing! My very best wishes (talk) 15:49, 18 May 2023 (UTC)


 * That is an even greater loss from the point of view of the community but as you say a personal choice. When considering *your* interests versus that of the community this is probably the best move. I wish you wouldn't, because I really relied on your work in the war on Ukraine but since in a kafkaesque move we can only talk about the war in Ukraine as a reason to punish that just doesn't count. I am still trying to formulate something wise to say about the precedent this case is setting and truly don't know what to say to you. Elinruby (talk) 20:00, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I would continue editing Ukrainian subjects, but here is the issue. During this case three participants expressed a desire "to get me" in EE area. Under normal circumstances, I could not care less because they would not have a chance to present any reasonable case against me on WP:AE. But this is different now. Imagine that one of them is coming with a complaint directly to Arbcom per remedy 11a). I would reply that I do not have any conflicts and even minor content disputes with anyone in this area, so why bother? But in response, they will ask to consider something that had happen N years ago per Proposed_decision - Age_of_evidence. That is what would be outright rejected by admins on WP:AE. But this is not WP:AE. And they also made remedy 12)! After looking at the current case, I have zero confidence in any fair decision. And it will be yet another wikidrama and waste of time for everyone involved. I would rather just go. My very best wishes (talk) 20:38, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It isn't good for Wikipedia. I am however saying that about a lot of things right now and nobody is listening. I will try again on this if they are done dealing with Levivich's meltdown. I am just coming into wikipedia so I am going to go look at the state of the talk page. I looked last night but it seemed to me that any comment I would make would be seen as an interruption to the Levivich drama. I actually could really use your help in the collaboration amd disinformation article, and I dont think VM has plans to edit it. Or Gitz. But this is up to you. Right now I am not arguing for any particular editors but instead about the effect of these policies on everyone. However, again, I do not think that anyone is listening to me. Elinruby (talk) 20:54, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
 * If you are talking about [this page, this is actually a good example because it was recently edited by Piotrus (say me what he did not edit!). Now imagine that I did not check edit history of this page and just made a change that is a partial revert of his edit. That would be an I-BAN violation and a one year block. I am sure that Piotrus would not report me, but someone else might, maybe even through email. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] (talk) 21:10, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

You're not topic banned in Eastern Europe, and you are allowed to talk to me. Why not help me with Russia? I wish...I had no idea you were going to get punched in the gut, or I would have tried to warn you. And defend you. I really think it was unfair, but I well know that your editing is substantive and valuable. 01:06, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * No problem. That's OK, and perhaps I can help you with something as time allows (not now). As about sanctions, that was all my fault. Here is the thing: during discussions admins are reading comments by contributors to understand their mindsets and may act on that to prevent a potential future disruption as they see fit. That is what had happen in many cases. This case is unusual only because I commented mostly in support of other contributors (not only P and VM) rather than myself.My very best wishes (talk) 17:01, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * They put you in the same category as GizzyCatBella {VM support team) and that's the part I think was unfair. She -- I am sticking with "she" because that's the persona I have talked to -- was actively harmful. One of my goals was to at least get her rollback rights removed. But you've gone toe to toe with Gitz on source verification when I just couldn't keep up. And then I wasn't allowed to talk about that. Also, you were put by arbs in a case where they knew you hadn't edited, then penalized for not having much of substance to say. Ugh. I just think that sanctions should have something to do with actual behaviour, and that topic ban in Poland is purely performance art.


 * Anyway. If you are busy right now I will let you go but one of my questions is about Red Army POWs conscripted by the Nazis, and whether this happened a lot. I do not need an answer right away -- it looks like I will be doing this for a while -- but that is something to think about, but I am uncertain how much it intersects with Poland. Pretty peripherally, I would think, at most, but you tell me. On a completely different note, I keep seeing an article come up as tagged that is definitely beyond my ability: I can more or less read it but verifying or sourcing it, ha. This is not a request, just something that I wish someone would do and that may perhaps interest you: Rus' chronicle. Right now it takes me, a half-bright non-Russian speaker, a whole lot of concentration to even get through the etymology section. If you aren't interested, then fine -- it will keep coming up on the needs-attention lists until another Russian speaker comes along, I guess, shrug. Be well, get some sunshine and chime in when you want. As far as the disinformation article goes, afaik you don't have an interaction ban with Piotrus? But if you do, you edited the article before he did, and that is the rule isn't it? Elinruby (talk) 20:09, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * This is a huge subject. See Russian Liberation Army, Category:Russian Liberation Army, Andrey Vlasov, etc. For the motivation, see Why I Have Taken Up the Struggle Against Bolshevism. That story was heavily exploited by Soviet propaganda. Probably the first writer who covered this more or less objectively in Russia was Solzhenitsyn, and later Georgi Vladimov - "General and his army" - . My very best wishes (talk) 20:59, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I will read those, and probably have questions. It sounds like the answer is yes, this did happen a lot. For now, sunshine. Elinruby (talk) 21:19, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, a lot. In addition to Liberation Army, mostly from Soviet POWs, there were Cossack forces and others forcefully repatriated to USSR later (compare with bringing of Ukrainians to Russia during the ongoing war), see Operation Keelhaul and other aspects of Western betrayal. But the latter does come close the subject of topic ban. One can not really edit anything on WWII with such editing restrictions. My very best wishes (talk) 21:38, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Nod, I came into this question via the Cossacks. Also, in the question of collaboration I adopted a standard of you had to have done something deliberately to collaborate, which I think I saw better expressed elsewhere. I should re-find that source. A POW who is told he is now fighting for Germany would seem not to qualify. But you are right, it is better not to ask you questions about the eastern front. I do not want to make you sorry you helped me. And yes, I do see the iban with Piotrus now I look again. The point is, you can help if you wish. Elinruby (talk) 22:51, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, it was not about collaboration with Nazi. They did not like Nazi. They wanted to fight with Bolsheviks who have committed enormous crimes against Russian people, including Red Terror, Collectivization, Great Purge, etc. But they did not have another choice - they had to collaborate with Nazi to fight Bolsheviks. That was exploited by Nazi who committed atrocities and forced some of them to commit atrocities against their own people. Some participants of these events like Boris Bazhanov even tried to convince Nazi not to commit the atrocities against local population arguing that would help them to win the war. But of course Nazi did not listen. My very best wishes (talk) 17:15, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * That pattern holds for quite a number of freedom fighter groups, which we don't seem to document very well. I have been mentally kicking that around. On an off-topic but slightly related note, have you ever heard of Osman Batur? I ran into that article in the needs-copyediting queue. He was a warlord who fought the Japanese occupation of China by collaborating with the Soviets. If not no worries. I think it is important not to pass judgement on this - he needed weapons and the Soviets had them, to the extent that I understand things. Much is true of the Burmese and the Cossacks and some other groups in the Balkans that I am trying to naIl down. Elinruby (talk) 21:47, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * working on listening better. No more questions about this for now. I thought it was myself I was endangering if anything. I am so sorry. Elinruby (talk) 04:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Cleaning up List of WW2 puppets
Hi, Elin,

I just deleted the two lead paragraphs from List of World War II puppet states because they were misleading, inaccurate and simplistic. [Perhaps a praiseworthy effort by some eager junior high school student.]

But I'm too sleepy/lazy/irresponsible to start writing a new lead in an accurate and unconfusing way. Any ideas?

Happy Fourth —— Shakescene (talk) 14:15, 4 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I can look. Elinruby (talk) 21:50, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Apparently not a criminal law
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1679007316300020 A critical analysis of the Native Vegetation Protection Law of Brazil (2012): updates and ongoing initiatives] v

Volume 14, Supplement 1, April 2016, Pages 1-15 White Paper Elinruby (talk) 09:24, 29 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Pedro H.S. Brancalion, Letícia C. Garcia, Rafael Loyola, Ricardo R. Rodrigues, Valério D. Pillar, Thomas M. Lewinsohn,
 * A critical analysis of the Native Vegetation Protection Law of Brazil (2012): updates and ongoing initiatives,
 * Natureza & Conservação,
 * Volume 14, Supplement 1,
 * 2016,
 * Pages 1-15,
 * ISSN 1679-0073,
 * https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ncon.2016.03.003.
 * (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1679007316300020)
 * Abstract: Elinruby (talk) 09:25, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * meanwhile in Mexico, a hybrid legal system there is this https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02062-1 Elinruby (talk) 10:07, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Just to be safe: redacted the abstract; use the sciencedirect url to view content. Mathglot (talk) 17:02, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah probably just as well Elinruby (talk) 20:00, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/30/jair-bolsonaro-judges-vote-ban-running-for-office Elinruby (talk) 18:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)


 * bolsonaro ag policy Elinruby (talk) 04:53, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Copyright problem on Draft:Brazilian criminal justice
Please don't add copyright content to Wikipedia, not even temporarily for editing, not even in sandboxes or drafts. Please do your amendments before you save the page, or use an external editor such as Microsoft Word or Google Docs and work on it there until you are sure it's completely original. If you intend it to be a quotation, please be careful to place quotation marks around all of the quoted content. Thanks, — Diannaa (talk) 13:34, 10 July 2023 (UTC)


 * ok . I will go over this a bit later today. I assume that we're talking about the quotes from the Christian Science Monitor in the Brazilian criminal justice draft, which are admittedly a bit excessive and still in need of further trimming, but I will also check the other other quotes for quote marks as well, since it sounds like this may have been a different and additional problem. Elinruby (talk) 19:57, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * There were three paragraphs copied, and one single quotation mark, at the start of the first copied paragraph. So I had to take it out, so sorry. Might I suggest that that if you need quoations for use in preparing your draft, you could save them offline in a Word document or similar rather than pasting them into Wikipedia, weher we have strict rules about copyright and non-free content.  — Diannaa (talk) 23:36, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not saying you should not have, . I just came in to fix what needed fixing: it sounded like a missing close quote on a quotation that was too long to begin with? In any event I agree, it was sloppy, sorry about that. Am I correctly understanding that that you deleted the text in question and there is nothing there that I need to fix any more? I will be more mindful, sorry. Elinruby (talk) 01:05, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes I deleted it. I can email you the removed paragraphs if you're not sure what I took out. — Diannaa (talk) 01:13, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I can find it in the history, no worries. Thanks for what you do. Elinruby (talk) 01:18, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ha, apparently I *can't* just get it out of the history, although thanks for leaving the URL in the edit summary. That would usually be enough for me to find the reference again, but assuming that I am reading the history correctly, it looks like the tool also scooped up some unrelated wikignoming by, who has been helping out with templates, and I would like to reinstate that if so. And yeah, next time I find myself typing that gee, I seem to be making a lot of typos, maybe I should go drink some water and get my head wet, I will listen to myself. That close quote was a typo but did result in something that the Christian Science Monitor might not have had a sense of humor about, and that wasn't a good way to arrive at that text anyway. So good catch, thanks again, and yes please do email me what you removed. I do have email enabled. Elinruby (talk) 14:20, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * YGM. Sorry for all the extra trouble, I just don't want that lying around in the page history once you move it out of draftspace. — Diannaa (talk) 14:24, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ✔️ legit concern. I don't see the Mathglot edits but maybe I read the history wrong. I will look again, and the email does save me some steps. You can consider this matter resolved unless I come back with a question; I do understand what I did and what you did and have no issue with you doing it. Elinruby (talk) 14:48, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * A RevDel does not remove any content, it operates strictly on the history, striking items starting back at the copyvio edit (however long ago it was; I've seen periods of years), right up to the edit that removed the copyvio, and making them unclickable in history. It does *not* remove the content from any of those edits. The point is, so that someone can't click one of the edits in the middle, and see or copy the copyvio content. Content of old edits of mine at the page that are struck out in the history are not gone from the page, they are merely unreachable from history, because if you could reach them, you would see the copyvio content also, and that's forbidden: Wikipedia cannot host copyvio content at all, not even in old versions. Mathglot (talk) 16:45, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * aha, that explains the part about your edits. I understand where Diannaa was coming from and am mildly surprised I didn't at the time (although I said myself I was delirious, lol, I just thought I was kidding). Incidentally, in case I worried you, the temperature is now quite pleasant here, and it turns out that when they told me I can't eat anything fatty they meant AT ALL as in *nada*. This is harder than you might think, but means the other day wa just the other day. Anyway, I am still disgruntled, but no longer particularly unwell, except I still need surgery.. I didn't want to stop working though; I found some good stuff. In addition to the explicit mandate for classism in the prisons, it seems that the Supreme Court has granted itself the power to investigate threats against the government, because the Bolsonaro administration was more or less encouraging them, à la Trump...Elinruby (talk) 21:27, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Invitation
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 * If patrolling new pages is something you'd be willing to help out with, please consider applying here.

Sent by using MediaWiki message delivery (talk) at 10:30, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Note to srlf
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/17/the-underground-crimean-tatar-group-taking-up-arms-against-russia Elinruby (talk) 09:04, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

The Holocaust in Poland
Hi, in this edit you introduced apparently as a reference, but it produces the error message "Cite error: Invalid tag; no text was provided for refs named Spaceship". Perhaps you could fix this. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 20:20, 13 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Actually, no. I never use that citation style so I definitely did not "introduce" it. It does look like I deleted part of the reference name when I was repairing the Berendt and Engel references, however. These were in addition to a long string of reference errors created when another editor deleted half the article.
 * And yet. I have restored the reference name to what it apparently was prior to my edit, and it is still broken. I should have noticed the remaining error though, so I am slightly puzzled, as I remember checking for that, although, apparently, not well enough.
 * I would crank up wikiblame, but it doesn't work on my antique android, and I am in any event fairly ill and preoccupied with whether I am ill enough to pay for an ambulance. Two days ago, hmm, I probably already had a fever, and like anyone else I am capable of error at the best of times. I will check on it in a day or two and see if I can help then if it hasn't already been fixed. It would be Paulsson plus another author, but I am not seeing such a work in the list of named references, and can only suppose that it was one of the original deletions that I was working on. Please do let me know, thanks. Elinruby (talk) 22:04, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * When I say "you introduced" I mean "it wasn't there before your edit, it was in your edit as you can see from the diff I provided", which I think is a reasonable usage. Anyway, I have fixed it now. It's, I don't know where the "spaceship" came from! I had, betweentimes, removed the definition as it was producing a huge red error message, restoring it has sorted it. These clever referencing methods always spell trouble. I hope you feel better soon. All the best, DuncanHill (talk) 22:14, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * thanks. I didn't mean to quibble on the usage. I don't know where "Spaceship" came from either. As for feeling better, working on it. Elinruby (talk) Elinruby (talk) 22:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * See this coverage in Ynet of the Jewish Collaborator section:
 * https://www.ynetnews.com/article/hksrnqlts —— Shakescene (talk) 20:15, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * yes, that is what the Arbcom case was about. The Jewish collaboration section of our article was completely re-written by Marcelus after that article was published, to say that for many definitions of collaboration, Jewish collaboration might not have existed. My very best wishes deleted it anyway, on the theory that it gave the appearance of singling Jews out. I reluctantly agreed, although I felt that the article might benefit from a discussion of this and other trans-national groups such as the Albanians in Yugoslavia or for that matter Germans in Czechoslovakia. It has since been re-created as a separate article, and if it's still the same way it was when I last saw it, I have no objection to it. Elinruby (talk) 20:32, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Many of Grabowski"s complaints were very out of date, although some of the problems still existed. But as far as collaboration and Arbcom goes, beware assertions that there was no collaboration in Poland, as it'apparently been demonstrated that some of the pogroms were home-grown. I flagged an instance of this assertion over at Wartime collaboration and it should be deleted. One of the worst offenders in this regard, GizzyCatBella, was indeffed during the case, although for being a sock not for PoV pushing. Elinruby (talk) 20:39, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Slatersteven
Stop making everything about me, you can make an argument about almost any topic without mentioning me. Slatersteven (talk) 09:58, 20 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I mentioned you because you are the one making hallucinatory accusations, which that editor apparently believed. When I first started working on the article, three quarters of it was utterly uncited, and you'd been stalking the page for yeats, according to the page infirmation. So apparently you were just fine with that, or hadn't read the page then either.
 * Yet you claimed that *cited text* was OR. How about you strike your defamatory remarks, and we don't have the problem anymore of people thinking they are true? Elinruby (talk) 15:28, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what you are on about, and suggest you read wp:npa.If you keep on talking about me, rather than the article I will report you. Slatersteven (talk) 15:34, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * hahaha that's good. You're going to report me for asking you to strike a personal attack. You do that. I guess I will strike your false statements for you then. Is that easier to understand? This will solve the problem since I never think about you, actually, unless you are disrupting talk page discussions. 15:48, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Slatersteven (talk) 17:12, 20 July 2023 (UTC)


 * All rightee then! Elinruby (talk) 17:57, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Since I know (or assume) that you both are acting in good faith (unlike one side of the Polish/Jewish collaborator debate), might I suggest that this need not be escalated to Administrators' Noticeboards (with the implicit threat of discipline and the hardening rather than softening of antagonistic feelings, as well as colloquies so long and so unpleasant that I can often not bear to read them all the way through), might I suggest that you first try approaching the Mediation Cabal, who can often find common ground and suggest mutually-agreeable resolutions?  (Long, long run-on sentence} . Elinruby has, in fact, worked long and hard to verify and source what had been a horribly choppy, disorganised and randomly-citing article (after I asked his advice about fixing just the Vichy section)..
 * See, for example, how one of their volunteer mediators was able to help resolve a long-running debate here: Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-11-11/War of 1812 . —— Shakescene (talk) 19:33, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not averse but like DR I believe they try to resolve content issues, don't they? We don't actually have one here, just a bunch of aspersions. Apparently I not only engage in OR, I also don't listen to other people rofl. Oh and I want to OWN the article. And am and delete OR. mean and delete en Whatever. The article will survive without me, and SL is busily issuing orders on the talk page. If that gets something constructive done (which I doubt) then hey,wonderful. Elinruby (talk) 16:03, 21 July 2023‎

Some fringe theories to be aware of
Explained here. Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 02:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:ANI Report
Hi I don't plan to add anything else to that report up at the noticeboard. I think it is the laws of diminishing returns. I don't think it will solve anything by adding more text, since it is not getting anywhere. Its a time sink.  scope_creep Talk  20:00, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I was just going to come see you and say GA huh. I hadn't dared to dream that high but I am all for it. I agree that it would be best at this point to just let it age off into archives, but since he actually made a proposal, however wrong+headed I think it was, I wanted to endorse your comment about separate sections, which does address some of the problem. I agree that it would be best if he withdrew, but I don't think he will. Thanks for the support btw, and as a long-term project check out Roquepertuse; the French article has some citations that I can import. I am going to stay away from Collaboration for a while just because. Elinruby (talk) 20:24, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * So am I. I'll take a look.   scope_creep Talk  20:37, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

The Man in the Arena
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat...."

— Theodore Roosevelt

https://www.theodorerooseveltcenter.org/Learn-About-TR/TR-Encyclopedia/Culture-and-Society/Man-in-the-Arena —— Shakescene (talk) 19:16, 21 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks. unfortunately I still don't take it well when people accuse me of creating problems I am tring to fix, but I am working on that.


 * I just posted three questions over at puppet state, but lest I be accused of dominating that talk page also, eyeroll, and you are the most likely one to answer it, here is a fourth one. Is there or are we making a fistinction between puppet state and client state? Ran into that while working on sourcing last night. There doesn't seem to me to be a lot of daylight between them, but a strict interpretation of OR seems to require that the sourde actually use the exact word, and "client state" isn't included in our list of synonyms at rhe beginning of the article. should it be, is my question ;)


 * I should probably warn you that given the current toxicity, for the next little while I will be proceeding even more so by asking apparently stupid questions  Elinruby (talk) 19:29, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Extending heat wikibreak
Extreme heat warning scheduled to continue in my area through Saturday night, including at night. As previously discussed elsewhere, my risk for dehydration is currently high. I expect to be able to continue responding to notifications and do simple edits, but to perhaps have trouble with sustained concentration. Anything I said I will do will probably still take place but perhaps with some delay. Right now for example I need an ice bath, later. Elinruby (talk) 01:36, 22 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The extreme heat warning is still in effect for tomorrow apparently. the projected high is not bad at all though, so I am not sure which one of those is right. It's supposed to rain all next week though, so the end is.in sight. Going back to bed now, having hydrated. Elinruby (talk) 10:30, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Contentious topic restriction imposed
Dear Elin, as per the ANI discussions, I found no confirmation that your tendentious behaviour against Slatersteven will not continue. In the light of your past CT warnings here and here, and to prevent further disruption, you are being partially blocked from editing the article Collaboration with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. You may appeal this contentious topic restriction via the procedure mentioned at Contentious topics. Thank you, Lourdes  11:20, 23 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes.I will have some questions about that later Elinruby (talk) 16:19, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for July 25
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Roquepertuse, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Bulwark.

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Henri Lafont
We have a tiny stub about him, but when you get a chance, watch the documentary, "Henri Lafont, the godfather of the Gestapo" on YouTube (50 minutes). I learned a ton of things, not just about him, but about collaboration and just the way things worked in wartime France (and afterward). Also, a shocking vision of a topsy-turvy world, where up is down and bad is good (or at least, in power). Really interesting; I feel a bit shocked, now, that I never heard of him. A lot more available at fr:Henri Lafont than we have, but watch the film (link). Mathglot (talk) 05:22, 15 July 2023 (UTC) ✔️ Elinruby (talk) 05:25, 15 July 2023 (UTC)


 * le milieu? That's pretty delicious Elinruby (talk) 23:03, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * looking at video. That might actually be citable, no? Elinruby (talk) 18:37, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Absolutely; reliable source, so no problem. Use cite AV media and be sure to use the time parameter for every citation of that type, because otherwise it's a gigantic pain to find it, and negatively impacts WP:V. Mathglot (talk) 10:17, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ✔️ Elinruby (talk) 15:06, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Isn't he a deplorably amazing character? Am glad you're enjoying expanding the article; it needed it. Mathglot (talk) 08:08, 26 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The French article already cited that YouTube video, so I changed that to a named reference and plan to go through again based on the video. Linguistically, one interesting thing I noticed was that the subtitles frequently do exactly convey the meaning of the speaker, but turn argot into academic French ;) Along those same lines, I also had a lot of fun with translating that blockquote. Kinda proud of Boche->Kraut. There's a bit more to go, but for now I contented myself with translating that long section, then trimming out some of the extraneous stuff like the addresses. Those are of great interest if you know Paris in detail, and reflect a gradual increase in status, but are just bla bla bla as far as English speakers are concerned probably, and of course we don't have articles on most individual streets in Paris. And probably won't. I've worked on two or three of them, but these were really old streets lined with hotels particuliers.
 * Anyway, yes, it is definitely a much more nuanced portrait of a bad piece of work than we've been seeing around here lately. Links still need work but I'll get to that; it was one too many things to juggle. Or two: The slices look great but could use some company. And are of course in French. One question: I guess he was Pied-Noir? Not seeing that explicitly spelled out but Tirailleurs is kind of a tell, and Algeria keeps popping up in other ways also.
 * Anyway, thanks for noticing ;) And no, the previous stub didn't do him justice at all, just said he was criminal who joined the Gestapo and faced a firing squad.
 * Since you like finding missing articles, check out the name I redlinked. He's in Wikidata but doesn't have an article in any language, yet apparently was involved in looting at least one of the palaces. Do we have an article on the art stolen in this period? Elinruby (talk) 09:12, 26 July 2023 (UTC)