User talk:Enquire/sandbox/Glary Utilities

See below for archive conversation recovered from talk archive: discussion on deletion of Glary Utilities (anyone feel free to dress as archive?)


 * Per suggestion by davidwr, I attempted to move Talk:Glary Utilities to User:Enquire/Glary Utilities (talk) using WP:MOVE. However I experienced an error, with so many possible reasons, that it was not at all clear why it did not work (I have never attempted to MOVE a page before).  Maybe this is because I am trying to move from mainspace to userspace?  Per:
 * You do not have permission to move this page, for the following reason:


 * The requested page title is invalid. It may be empty, contain unsupported characters, or include a non-local or incorrectly linked interwiki prefix. You may be able to locate the desired page by searching for its name (with interwiki prefix, if any) in the search box.


 * Possible causes are:


 * an attempt to follow a link to a diff for a page that has since been deleted;
 * an attempt to load a URL such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/| (the | character is not permitted in page titles);
 * an attempt to load a URL pointing to a "non-local" interwiki page (usually those not run by the Wikimedia Foundation). For example, the URL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/meatball:WikiPedia will give this error, because the "meatball:" interwiki prefix is not marked as local in the interwiki table. Certain interwiki prefixes are marked as local in the table. For example, the URL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/meta:Main_page can be used to load meta:Main_page. All interlanguage prefixes are marked as local, and thus URLs such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/fr:Accueil will work as expected. However, non-local interwiki pages can still be accessed by interwiki linking or by entering them in the search box. For example  WikiPedia  can be used on a page, like this: meatball:WikiPedia.


 * If you tried to access a non-local interwiki page, you may be able to access that page by clicking the "article" tab on this page.


 * Maybe I used the wrong syntax for the destination page? I tried both:
 * User:Enquire/Glary Utilities (talk)
 * User:Enquire#Glary_Utilities_(talk)


 * Can someone help to either explain to me why it didn't work; or, else, do the move and (hopefully) explain why it didn't work for me. :)
 * Enquire (talk) 19:52, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks User:Davidwr. It seems it worked.  Actuually, you did that while I was editing tha page, and I saw and error when I tried to save it saying that the page had been deleted by an administrator.  Are you and Admin?  I looked at the log, and as far as I can see, you did the move (maybe as an admin, or not); then User:Alexf (an admin) deleted the mainspace page ... so I am not quite sure what happened, do you know?


 * 12:19, 2014 February 6 Alexf (talk | contribs) deleted page Talk:Glary Utilities (R2: Cross-namespace redirect from mainspace)
 * 12:08, 2014 February 6 Davidwr (talk | contribs) moved page Talk:Glary Utilities to User:Enquire/Glary Utilities (talk) (Userfy recently created talk page of previously-deleted article. On request of User:Enquire. See discussion on this page for details.) (revert)
 * 04:07, 2013 June 24 JamesBWatson (talk | contribs) deleted page Talk:Glary Utilities (G8: Talk page of a deleted page)


 * I just noticed that while the page title was Glary Utilities (talk) ~ it was actually a user page, not a talk page, so I moved the content from User:Enquire/Glary Utilities (talk) to Talk:Enquire/Glary Utilities.   The move actually worked this time, so many non-admins can only move content within their own user space?!?  Also, will ammend the link on the WikiProject Computing page Category talk:Computing articles needing expert attention - Glary Utilities ... recovery mission.
 * Enquire (talk) 22:46, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Is history available?
I think I speak for all of us; in that this is not our day job ... so it would, of course, be less onerous to start with prior contributions, that to start from scratch with nothing at all. Noting that the most recent edition of Glary Utilities contained copyright violations, is it (at least) possible to recover the last version of the page? Of course, any copyright violations should have been reverted, but apparently not. Ideally, it should be possible to recover earlier versions prior to copyright violations. Anyway, I have created a sandbox for this page, could someone with admin privileges copy either the last live version of the page and/or an earlier version without (or less) copyright violations?


 * See: User:Enquire/sandbox/Glary

Of course, any and all welcome to assist in shaking-down the article until it is ready to go prime time on the subject page. Enquire (talk) 05:36, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I really don't know whether I can make this clearer than I already have, but I will try.


 * There is no question of restoring any version of any page which contains copyright infringing content. That is not just a personal whim, nor even just a matter of Wikipedia policy: it is the law.


 * Right from the very first version of this article, it contained substantial copyright infringing content. Thus, there are no "earlier versions prior to copyright violations". The content was almost entirely a copy of content which was at http://www.glarysoft.com/glary-utilities/. It appears to have been removed from there now, but that does not invalidate the copyright. The copied content can still be seen on other sites, such as http://trustednerd.com/tag/glary-utilities/. The copyright infringing content persisted through all revisions of the article, from the first one to the last one.


 * For the above reasons, no version of the article can be restored. However, for future reference, in case you ever find yourself in a situation which is similar but not identical, if the last version of the article had been purged of the original copyright-infringing content, it is very unlikely that it would have been possible to restore that last version, because it would almost certainly have contained contributions from a number of editors, and without keeping the history of their individual edits, there would have been no record of who wrote what, which is required by Wikipedia's copyright licensing terms. JamesBWatson (talk) 16:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


 * NOTE: I posted a request for assistance here:
 * Category_talk:Computing_articles_needing_expert_attention
 * Enquire (talk) 20:05, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I do recall visiting the article page previously, if only to check on the current release version and date and/or to update the release version and date. It probably deserved more work, I am sure it did, but didn't have the time to invest in tightening it up previously.  However, I did look at the site http://trustednerd.com/tag/glary-utilities/ and can say that it didn't much look like what I recall from the previous Wikipedia page (Infobox, etc.)  I do know that there are a number of Wikipedia archive mirrors ... maybe we can find a reasonable facsimilie (with Wikimarkup) to put in the sanbox?  I am sure that other editors have invested time in the past.  Possibly some user deleted the independent review conteentr and substituted content direct from the Glarysoft marketing literature at some point, I don't know.  I was really hoping to get at the history of that page and find a reasonable baseline to revert to, before starting work on reserrection.
 * Enquire (talk) 20:41, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Glary Utilities from glarysoft.com is one of the more popular and reputable Windows utilities, per:
 * CNET review of Glary utilities
 * Softpedia review of Glary utilities
 * Softonic review of Glary utilities
 * MajorGeeks review of Glary utilities
 * ZDNet review of Glary utilities
 * LifeHacker offers Glary Utilities Pro for Free (Normally $40) (v2.56 (released 2013-05-26) never expires, can update to current version (currently v4.5.0.89, released 2014-01-22) which is 30-day trial version, although free for "private use" ~ both versions can co-exist if installed in different directories, such as /Glary 2 & /Glary 4)
 * I am sure that with a few hands, a few stem cells, this article can be resurrected sans copyright issues.
 * Enquire (talk) 21:05, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Archive discussion on deletion of Glary Utilities
Hello, I was looking for Glary Utilities and found that you had deleted it at 04:07, 2013 June 24. Since it does not exist, I intend to resurrect it and update it. Could you please restore it, and let me know what issues you feel the page had previously? Since I connot see the version of that page when you deleted it, I can only guess. However, no matter what this page contained previously, I can say that this is a reputable software utility and it is entirely possible to form an unbiased description of the utility and its function with copious independent third party reviews, etc. Thanks in advance. Enquire (talk) 18:22, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Evidently, you have seen the deletion log entry, in which case you will have seen that it was deleted as a copyright infringement. There is no question of knowingly restoring copyright infringing text. To do so would be illegal, and I would personally be liable for doing so. In any case, since you indicate that you know of "copious" suitable third party sources, there should be no difficulty writing a new article from scratch. JamesBWatson (talk) 20:27, 25 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Is there a non-copyvio version available? An article I worked on years ago got "hijacked" by a copyvio and was deleted.  Fortunately, I recorded the page name so I could ask to have the older, legal versions, restored.  See [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=SeriousFun+Children%27s+Network log].  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  02:10, 26 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Unless there were other problems as well as copyright, that should not have happened, davidwr, because an article should not normally be deleted as a copyright infrignement if there are early versions without the copyright infringing content: instead, the later versions should be removed, and the article restored to an earlier version. I never delete an article for copyright reasons without first checking back to the earliest versions to see if there is a version I can revert to. In this case, unfortunately, copyright infringement was present right from the creation of the article. Even more copyright violating content was added later, and eventually there was a mixture of copyright infringements from different sources. (The one source I cited in the deletion log was just a sample to show that there was infringement. When there is copyright infringement from various sources, it is often impracticable to cite every source, especially when, as in this case, content has been copied to so many places on the web that it is impossible to determine which was the original source.) Unfortunately, I think this one just has to be a case of starting again from scratch. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:35, 26 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Postscript: I see that, in the other article you refer to, Graeme Bartlett eventually restored the earlier, non-copyright-infringing versions of the article. It would probably have saved trouble if those versions had been kept in the first place, rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:41, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
 * He restored them after I asked for a refund last month. davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  20:06, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
 * So, it is possible to view this old (non-copyright-infringing or copyright-infringing) version somewhere? Of course, there is no intention to restore copyright-infringing content, but it would be helpful to see what went before while restoring this page.  See the new page in process here:
 * User:Enquire/sandbox/Glary_Utilities
 * Enquire (talk) 00:09, 27 March 2014 (UTC)