User talk:Eol Gurgwathren

January 2024
Hello, I'm Veverve. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Liberal Catholic Church, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Veverve (talk) 19:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Lots of reliable citations. Please not revert. Rather edit and engage in constructive discussion for this page. It's been reduced to a meaningless blob. Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 22:34, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi Eol Gurgwathren! I noticed that you have reverted to restore your preferred version of Liberal Catholic Church several times. The impulse to undo an edit you disagree with is understandable, but I wanted to make sure you're aware that the edit warring policy disallows repeated reversions even if they are justifiable.

All editors are expected to discuss content disputes on article talk pages to try to reach consensus. If you are unable to agree&#32;at, please use one of the dispute resolution options to seek input from others. Using this approach instead of reverting can help you avoid getting drawn into an edit war. Thank you. AntiDionysius (talk) 21:11, 4 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I am only reverting because my careful changes we simply reverted in the first place. No discussion or explanation. Until that happens with the work I'be put into it, I have no choice but to revert. Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 22:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * No, you actually do have a choice, and continuing to revert would risk getting you into trouble for violation of the edit warring policy. Please read that policy carefully. You will note that in the very first section it says that edit warring is banned even if the edits you are restoring are justifiable. AntiDionysius (talk) 22:35, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Engage with I have just said. I undid an unjust reversion first. It is the other users doing this to me rather than engaging with me. They have other options. Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 22:50, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * And now I am being harassed by some ultratraditionalist Catholic (Veverve) who has the clear intention of keeping the Liberal Church information surpressed and ambiguous. Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 22:52, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Please do not add or change content, as you did at Liberal Catholic Church, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. Veverve (talk) 21:44, 4 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Sources are reliable and approrpiate. Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 22:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Veverve (talk) 20:14, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

 You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for persistently making disruptive edits. If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page:. Bbb23 (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Some animosity and frustration has developed with the editing patterns on Liberal Catholic Church page. Complete reversions were made to content I introduced without flagging the content.

After some back and forth, User TSP became helpful and pointed out a better starting point for the article, however, I went through the process of addressing their concerns. If it is required that I apologise to Veverve for mt assumptions of bad faith I will do so.

I am new to editing on Wikipedia and it seems I didn't quite understand the norms and stringency on the topic. Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 00:59, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Some animosity and frustration has developed with the editing patterns on Liberal Catholic Church page. Complete reversions were made to content I introduced without flagging the content.

After some back and forth, User TSP became helpful and pointed out a better starting point for the article, however, I went through the process of addressing their concerns. If it is required that I apologise to Veverve for mt assumptions of bad faith I will do so.

I am new to editing on Wikipedia and it seems I didn't quite understand the norms and stringency on the topic. Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 00:59, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * This is not a valid unblock request. It is utterly unconvincing. Carefully read the Guide to appealing blocks, several times if necessary, and try again. Cullen328 (talk) 08:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Please place your edits in the larger edit window, not the smaller section header window. Your entire initial statement should replace the words "your reason here". 331dot (talk) 09:21, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

See above Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 10:48, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

See above. Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 11:29, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Please clarify what you mean by I am happy to rescind that accusation [..] now that [..] they have accepted some of my sources, are you suggesting that the personal attack is completely justified if Veverve doesn't do that?
 * Secondly, you still haven't addressed your original block reason: edit warring and battleground behavior. You need to show an understanding of these policies before we can be sure that the disruptive behavior won't continue. 0x Deadbeef →∞ (talk to me) 12:31, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Veverve has already added my sources in and added some more neutral ones of their own so I am less inclined to hold to my suspicion of malice.
 * Here is a summary:
 * 1) After his repeated reversions with curt notes I grew frustrated and wondered if he had a special interest in suppressing my changes. I looked at his talk page and saw Veverve has banned multiple times in the past for repeated reversions and content removal, so I assumed this was a similar situation.
 * 2) Given Veverve's avid interest in Roman Catholicism, I suspected they were trying to cut out Independent Catholic narratives by implementing a very strict interpretation of content sourcing, which I have not encountered on related pages.
 * 3) As the conflict reached a climax, User TSP could tell that I was new and pointed me to an older version of the Liberal Catholic Church page and showed me how to access it and instructed me to find more secondary sources. I followed their helpful advice and posted my revison of the page.
 * 4) Veverve complained about my behavioir and I was banned.
 * 5) Veverve then went and reinstated the short version of the page with some of the sources I put in and thanked me for my efforts. This behavioir, while not required by Wikipedia, gave me pause for thought on my suspicions of Veverve's intent for the page. Newbies often help best when they are expanding stubs that seem neglected or vague, but of which they have a lot of knowledge, but often misinterpret the significance of primary vs secondary sources required for further additions. Often experiences editors will completely wipe out and revert changes. This is disorienting and in this case I felt attacked.
 * 6) By the end of the editing experience, I could tell TSP was actually trying to help me and RetroCosmos was trying to show me the difference words can create in tone. Veverve, whatever their personal identity, religion, or motives is not up for speculation, and has demonstrated that they do accept other sources, and I am happy to work with them now that I have a better feel for how they value sources and also how sourcing works on Wikipedia in general.
 * 7) I understand that Wikipedia's policies are geared towards preventing poor sourcing and the engagement I've had on this ban shows me that editors do care, and they are not all out to squash new content. I just have to be more thorough when sourcing material.
 * As the conflict reached a climax, User TSP became helpful and pointed me to an older page for the Liberal Catholic hwhich they said was more helpful and instructed me to source the claims, which I did.urch. Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 13:03, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * There are some of typos in that length response. Just ignore them. Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 13:10, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * You have not answered my question; Are you saying that what you said was justified at that time? 0x Deadbeef →∞ (talk to me) 09:55, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * No. Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 11:55, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, I'd also like you to address the last decline reason left by Yamla. Please tell us why edit warring, battleground behavior, leaving personal attacks, and having a single purpose account could harm Wikipedia. Simply saying "I can work with this person now" is insufficient. You're expected to work with everyone here. 0x Deadbeef →∞ (talk to me) 09:14, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) Edit warring is not good because it doesn't allow for organic progress to be made on Wikipedia articles. It's better to ask for citations on minor changes rather doing reverts all the time. Even better is to discuss on the talk page of an article to resolve on a way forward.
 * 2) Battleground behaviour doesn't allow for nuanced views to come through and makes Wikipedia a confrontational space, rather than an informative space. It's important for comments to be helpful rather than bellicose
 * 3) Personal attacks limit discussions in all environments, including Wikipedia. It's best to avoid accusing the person of having agenda and rather report to admins if there is evidence of bad-faith editing rather than making accusations about the person's faith.
 * 3) Single purpose accounts can pursue narrow interests and makes Wikipedia less balanced. While single purpose accounts can provide a lot more information on a specific topic, Wikipedia does not admins who are committed to broad-based editing, and this comes from cultivating accounts which are not single-purpose. This was my initial assessment of Veverve, by the way. I assumed since they only edit Catholic pages, that this counted as such. They have been banned for this kind of behaviour before. I see that I should have reported them for biting the newbies instead. I had no idea the oversight would be this rigorous, given the state I found the LCC article in. I'm glad I raised my objections but I can see that it's possible to get through on topics with civil discussion on the talk pages (I had no idea these existed before, as a casual user of Wikipedia, by the way: most people don't).
 * 4) I can work with other people. As I was trying to make clear earlier I found TSP's comments helpful to a new editor, and instead of doing a revert, I dug up references on their request. I look forwarward to editing in this spirit. I'm happy to work these kinds of criticism. Next time my editing is reverted wholesale with criticisms I don't understand, I'm going to talk to that editor until it's clear what the next step should be. Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 07:18, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Your repeated attacks against me force me to intervene to clarify some points the admins may have missed.
 * You blame the fact that Veverve complained about my behavioir and I was banned: yes, complaining against your behaviour is something normal. And since you have been blocked, it appears my complaint was legitimate; you have only your own behaviour to blame.
 * I have never in any way attempted to be mean-spirited towards you, please stop those accusations (you wrote: I see that I should have reported them [Veverve] for biting the newbies instead).
 * Veverve has already added my sources in and added some more neutral ones of their own so I am less inclined to hold to my suspicion of malice: the user implies my previous behaviour of asking them to use RSs to add information (refusing blogs, etc.) can legitimately be seen as malicious, that unless I concede to them I can be considered as a POV-pusher or as a disruptive user.
 * [Veverve] ha[s] been banned for this kind of behaviour before: I have never had any block for POV-pushing. And I do not only edit Catholic pages, as can clearly be seen in my user page. Veverve (talk) 11:02, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Veverve, you have been blocked for doing constant revertsvand edit-wars, like you did to me edits. But just chill. It's over. There is some additional content to upload and I'll be happy for you or anyone else to peruse. I have lots to contribute on other topics and this is a learning process.
 * While there is need to curate and keep the editorial standards of Wikipedia high, this needs to be balanced against punitive gatekeeping. This is a work in progress and needs more active active collaboration. I'm not going try sock-puppet to get my view across. I'd like my account to be unbanned so I can continue. Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 12:14, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * While there is need to curate and keep the editorial standards of Wikipedia high, this needs to be balanced against punitive gatekeeping. This is a work in progress and needs more active active collaboration. I'm not going try sock-puppet to get my view across. I'd like my account to be unbanned so I can continue. Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 12:14, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Unblock discussion
Is this adequate to unblock? Do we need a wp:TOPICBAN for Liberal Catholic Church? Or do we punt downfield six months? -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:54, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Six months is more reasonable.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:31, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * "Animosity with User Veverve is resolved," but what about the next disagreement? What happens then? -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:57, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll behave myself and I'm learning as I go. The topic ban sounds like a reasonable measure in case you are concerned. I'm happy to contribute in other areas. Eager to help. Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 18:26, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * No, that's inadequate. Conflict is inevitable in a project with highly intelligent people who see things differently.. You will need to learn about that before you are unblocked, and describe how to deal with it in your old words. I'm afraid you are not ready yet, though you are closer. The problem is, you do not want to be unblocked before you are ready because you could wind up indeffed again there will be little chance of successfully appealing a second time. Ima close this and ask you to not make another unblock request until six months from now. If you can edit a different Wikipedia constructively in that time with five hundred constructive edits over six month, without serious problems, it would work in your favor. Formal decline when my fingers untangle. Best. --  Deepfriedokra (talk) 23:16, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * What is a "different Wikipedia"? Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 08:21, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
 * A list of Wikimedia projects can be found at List_of_Wikipedias .If you are fluent in a language other than English, there's a Wikipedia in that language..Simple Wikipedia is in English, but it's different there. Hope that helps. --  Deepfriedokra (talk) 11:14, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

No CU evidence of block evasion in the recent log. --Yamla (talk) 16:23, 26 June 2024 (UTC)