User talk:Eric Corbett/Archives/2013/August

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Did you notice the list of participants? It's heartwarming to see such a list of IRC regulars looking after the 7 years old who want to edit Wikipedia. Kiefer .Wolfowitz
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 * It turns out, if you "load" this to see what the hell it is, you also send yourself a "welcome to the adventure" message. So don't beat up your cat, Eric, it wasn't his/her fault. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, I forgive her then. Eric   Corbett  16:53, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * What the HELL is it, anyway? Another daft thing like the teahouse? (Gods, Eric has me using "daft"... next thing you know I'll be "nipping down to the pub for a pint" ... yikes!) Ealdgyth - Talk 17:12, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Good idea, it's another baking hot day here. I'll have a pint of lager if you're buying. Eric   Corbett  17:23, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Dear gods, it appears to be a meta-MMORPG. Aren't they going to be disappointed when they find out it's really about reading books? Yngvadottir (talk) 16:36, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * WTF is that image suppose to be? It looks like the love-child of Seabiscuit and the Terminator—even by Commons standards, it's creepy. (And not sure that list of names would be my first choice as a welcoming committee for new users, either.) – iridescent  16:45, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I can make out that it's wearing goggles and that's about it. Nev1 (talk) 16:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that it is a mix of Nobody, Flubber, and the main character in the film 9. SL93 (talk) 02:07, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It is quite clearly some form of fair use, copyright evading, bastardised World of Warcraft murloc. My 7-year-old daughter has pronounced this to be fact. Hampshire Fact with a capital F, to boot. Keri (talk) 02:22, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I rather see it as a fair use, copyright evading, bastardised spirit of the forest from Mononoke Hime (Exhibit 1). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:36, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * You're all a bunch of party poopers. Dinosaurs. The world has passed you by. FAs are too long, and no one reads them: the WMF is floating a proposal to start FT, Featured Tweets. Drmies (talk) 02:11, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Good lord that better be a joke.--Mark Miller Just ask! WER TEA DR/N 02:13, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * (EC!)Please no, Drmies: Ful ofte in game a sooth I have herd saye! Keri (talk) 02:16, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Meh, fiksimini did it first. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:19, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I think Flash fiction came first, Crisco. Amadscientist, I don't like to joke. Remember, I protested X on Twitter mostly because those articles were too long. Drmies (talk) 02:35, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * But did earlier flash fiction have "Featured Tweets"? Ah, yes, I remember that mess. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:37, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't even know Wikipedia had tweets that could be featured? How does that work....wait, don't explain. My head would likely just explode at this point.--Mark Miller Just ask! WER TEA DR/N 03:47, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Providence Chapel, Charlwood
Hi Eric. An interesting building, isn't it? Collapsing the infobox would be helpful; are there any ways you know to achieve that with code, magic words etc.? Otherwise I can see if I could trim any of the less important data out. Cheers, Hassocks 5489  (Floreat Hova!) 19:59, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll do it, and then you can see whether you like it or not. Eric   Corbett  20:12, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see a tin tabernacle at FAC. Anyway, I've done it now, see what you think. Eric   Corbett  20:22, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that looks great – many thanks. I'll add that to my list of useful templates!  Hassocks 5489  (Floreat Hova!)  20:25, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking of going for an FA on an article Hassocks and I worked on a while back on The George Hotel, Crawley. I think I'll open a peer review on it.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  21:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I'd fancy staying in a hotel with a gallows outside. One thing strikes me immediately though, which is that that History section needs to be subdivided in some way. Eric   Corbett  21:23, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it certainly has an interesting history, I'd subdivide it too to make it easier to read. I vaguely recall Hassocks said he had a bit more info on the architecture or something which I'd be eager to see.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  22:01, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I will dig out my wide range of Crawley material and see if I can find anything else. I'm about to start writing another big article though, so I'll pick up later this month.  Hassocks 5489  (Floreat Hova!)  12:23, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Copyediting
Hi, is my use of an em dash in this edit correct? Thanks for the work you've been doing with the Paris article.-- Gilderien Converse&#124;List of good deeds 15:54, 5 August 2013 (UTC)


 * It is. I don't understand the point of all that bitching on Paris's talk page; why don't those who're interested just roll up their sleeves and get on with the job of improving the article? Eric   Corbett  16:13, 5 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Mainly I think they feel that having "contributed more" or for longer they should have a say in how it looks; I wrote a clickable image and added a montage, without realising that they preferred an image of the Eiffel Tower, and Dr. Blofeld and myself added lots of sources and content whilst removing the sacred cow of a massive demographics section (basically Demographics of Paris in a single section), and they have taken offense at this "massive re-write" without consulting them, even though none of them had edited for months.-- Gilderien Talk&#124;List of good deeds 16:19, 5 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm with you and Blofeld fwiw, so we'll line up against them together. Eric   Corbett  16:23, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Did you see ...
This? Ealdgyth - Talk 22:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Can't remember if I've read that or not, but I'll try and take a look tomorrow. Thanks. Eric   Corbett  23:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It's in there, though it's used only once. I can get the PDF and email it to you if you like. Drmies (talk) 01:28, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That would be good, thanks. Eric   Corbett  01:35, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I had seen that yes, but I couldn't find it on my computer, so I couldn't be sure. Eric   Corbett  13:26, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

The Man in the Moone
Ping: see recent edits. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 16:39, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Will do. Eric   Corbett  16:47, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * In other news, here's your run-on for the day, courtesy of Sandro Monetti's PR agent: "He wrote and directed the short film parody Miserable Lesbians which swept the board at the 2013 Toscars in Hollywood winning an all time record eight Golden Fists and subsequently adapted it into a stage musical which enjoyed a sold out world premiere in Los Angeles and is to be performed in New York and which has been performed in Los Angeles at the Working Stage Theatre, New York at the 59e59 Theatres and at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival." Drmies (talk) 17:00, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Naively, I'd have thought that PR agents ought to be able to write. Eric   Corbett  17:32, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * That's a nice article, who wrote that? In a few weeks I may find the energy to revisit The Coral Island. The timing was unfortunate last time, with me getting blocked and both of us on vacation at the same time, but I don't see any major impediments to FAC. Eric   Corbett  18:10, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, yeah, sure. (Al)though there were other issues as well. (Those "thoughs" were all mine, I suppose...) On that note, my colleague (not really a Victorianist, but close enough) suggested we have enough material to produce a critical edition of The Coral Island. Maybe he was just trying to get out of a conversation that prevented him from going to lunch, but I think we're going to think about this some more, and I'll get back to you. He was very impressed with our work on that and on the green children, and also implied that Tristram Shandy needs some serious work. Drmies (talk) 18:28, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yuk! Tristam Shandy certainly does need a lot of work. I know we've got a bit to do yet to address all the points raised at the last FAC, but it all seems quite doable. Another article I'd like to see improved, being half Scottish myself and living in that part of the world during my childhood, is Tam O'Shanter. But first I've got to help Nick with his Jaguar XJ220 GAN. As for the green children, I'm quite pleased with what we did there. I listened to a BBC Radio 4 programme on them a year or two ago, and it wasn't a patch on the WP articles. Eric   Corbett  18:59, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * They got all that out of a V6? Unbelievable. Hey, my wife washed the Camry yesterday. It almost looks like a million bucks. Drmies (talk) 00:07, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I wish I could get my wife to wash my Jag. Eric   Corbett  00:10, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Imagine the irony: an article about Tristram Shandy going into ridiculous detail on things that are off-topic... Kurtis (talk) 17:17, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you caught that, hehe. Would you care to try and write up an imitative lead? Drmies (talk) 18:02, 6 August 2013 (UTC)


 * If you believe they put a man on the moon... Sorry, I know that was kind of pointless. It just came to mind when I saw this section on your talk page. :-) Kurtis (talk) 17:09, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

You're back
Hooray. Right then, you have worked on a shitload of featured articles, and I want you help me to get this one up to scratch. Any and all advice would be massively appreciated. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:55, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Are you planning to take that article back to FAC? Do you believe you've addressed all the issues that came up before? Eric   Corbett  21:25, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think I have ya, at least I have tried to. But having never managed a FA before I am finding it all very daunting. So I need help, cos I am shite and have gotten as far as I can. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:30, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll have a read through it, probably tomorrow, but by the end of the week certainly. Eric   Corbett  22:21, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That is great, thank you. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Eric, I know you said you were not helping out anymore due to my drunken twatishness but I have a quick question, you wrote on my talk about this "Eastern Pakistan seceded from Pakistan to become the independent nation of Bangladesh" I have no idea where that line came from? So I restored the lede to the way it was, just wanted to say thank you for pointing that out. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:53, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

St Nidan FAC
Just to let you know that I've mentioned you in dispatches at Featured article candidates/Old Church of St Nidan, Llanidan/archive1. Hope all is well. BencherliteTalk 14:04, 6 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Good luck with that. Remarkable what you managed to find on a partially destroyed church. Eric   Corbett  14:19, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

As an example of what content editors put up with ...
See the most recent exchange on Talk:Battle of Hastings, where appearantly the "House of Names" is considered a reliable source for English History. (Being a fan of train wrecks, I went on to look up my family name and turned up this. Gees, what a load of hooey.) Ealdgyth - Talk 23:42, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I've got a little kitten to look after, no time to worry about the Battle of Hastings. Eric   Corbett  00:26, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * well of course kittens come first! When are we going to see pictures? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:31, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There's a picture of her on my Facebook page, here. Eric   Corbett  14:35, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * And now you have a friend request. Psst, I'm incognito. Nice cat. Drmies (talk) 19:27, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Nice puppy. Eric   Corbett  20:52, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks! She's our first child... Speaking of puppies, have you done much with the ferret article--was that your token animal? Maybe that should be brought up to FA, so you can leave a legacy if you get blocked again. Are you Facebook friends with ? He might have some nice baby pictures, brand-new ones. Drmies (talk) 22:02, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I rather gave up with the ferret article, rather like I'm on the verge of giving up with the information technology article. Working on something you actually know a lot about rarely seems to work here. I have rather few Facebook friends, and generally only people I either know in real life or from here. I'll have a look for Sitush, but FB keeps suggesting friends I've never heard of for some reason; friends of friends I suppose. Eric   Corbett  22:16, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I never really used Facebook - set up an account so that I could refer to it for problems that customers might be experiencing but even that fell by the wayside. I sorted out a messy virus issue a couple of weeks ago and the customer thanked me, saying that it meant that they could "get back to civilisation". Their primary usage of the laptop was for Facebook. I despaired that they thought so little of civilisation. As for the other matter (baby pics), my brother tells me that his previous and vast experience of tinkering with Brit motorbikes really helped him when delivering his grandchild today. That seems as bizarre a comment as the FB/civilisation one, so perhaps the common denominator is being on some sort of adrenalin high. Neither the customer nor my brother are stupid people. Anyway, don't bother poking me if my FB account is still active, Eric. Drop me a note and I'll stagger over for a proper chinwag. - Sitush (talk) 22:50, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Think I understand… it's the same with Plastic Pigs. A book on the Battle of Hastings refers to the incident where Harold rescues two Normans from an estuary- the author differentiates between Harold's "romantic" and "heroic" reaction and what he assumes William's would be- "Okay, now we're down two knights, how do we solve this problem?". Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 08:30, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Bramshill
Thanks for the copyediting work you've done on it. Would you be OK with a GAN now? Yngva has said that she's happy with it now to be nominated.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  10:35, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it's ready. Actually, I think it'll sail through GA. Drmies (talk) 14:13, 7 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I think it's ready too. Eric   Corbett  14:18, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'll nominate it probably tomorrow unless someone beats me to it! Much indebted for the edits you and that IP have made!♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  14:24, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I've done the nomination; might as well get the ball rolling. Eric   Corbett  14:30, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Nice one, I wonder if Tim riley or somebody could review it.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  14:37, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Apologies in advance
We've just taken on an abandoned kitten, who seems to have an obsession with sleeping on and tramping all over my keyboard. So if you see any nonsense postings from me that seem to contain no obvious swear words it was the cat that did it. Eric  Corbett  22:48, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * We just took in a stray, and given my propensity to name the cats after royalty, promptly christened him "Pepin" as he's a bit of a coward. This goes with the other cats - the brothers "Attila the Hun" and "Ivan the Terrible" (named because they were holy terrors as kittens), "Rufus" - named for William Rufus, Queenie, Charlotte (named for a number of Queen Consorts - she's a diva), and Duchess. And we did have Tyrant, but he's now in the great kitten home in the sky, along with Eleanor (named for Henry II's queen). Tyrant would have been Banshee if he'd been female - he certainly howled like one. He's the one that got us started on royalty names... Enjoy the kitten stage, it's always fun! Ealdgyth - Talk 23:04, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * She's purring away wrapped up in my arms again, so I'm having to type left-handed. Makes you wonder about what's really important. Eric   Corbett  23:33, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Awww... Hey, I'd exchange any of my children, or all of them, for a nice cat right now. They're terrible today. Also makes you wonder about things, like getting in a time machine and getting a vasectomy in 2005. Drmies (talk) 00:08, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Meow. Eric, and assorted stalkers, if you have a moment to spare please have a look at Jacob de Wilde (or his daughter), who probably need a little scrubbing. They're relatively short. Thank you in advance. Drmies (talk) 23:25, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, our cat is called Toasty, since part of her tail got singed traveling under the hood of a car (BEFORE we got her). Ealdgyth, I think you should be nicer to Pepin (the two-legged one); he was in a tough spot. Drmies (talk) 23:27, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * So is ours - caught between the two downstairs cats - Rufus (who is a redhead and has the temprament to match) and Queenie (who closely resembles the Queen in Alice in Wonderland at times with her bloodthirsty attitude.) Ealdgyth - Talk 23:39, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * We've taken in four strays now, they seem to like our house. Two now live with friends, one we kept, and the fourth turned out to be microchipped when we took her to the vet.  When we phoned the number the vet gave us, the woman who answered (once she'd calmed down) told us the cat had been missing for four months from a village nearly ten miles from ours.  She would have had to cross two motorways, three railway lines and a bloody great river to get to us.  It was a nice moment when she came to pick her up, though. Black Kite (talk) 23:55, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * We once took in a stray cat that it turned out belonged to our bank manager. That earned us a few brownie points when she came to pick it up. Eric   Corbett  00:40, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh! Kudos to you!  And a tortoiseshell calico to boot!  Calicos are really quite special!  We adopted this sweet kitty from the shelter, just skin and bones (someone had abandoned her in their parking lot and it took them a couple weeks to lure her in, poor baby) but after we fattened her up and tamed her, we lost her four months later to Feline infectious peritonitis. Until she became visibly sick, she was a bundle of energy too!  (I miss her, but at least we still have this fine fellow, now an inside cat).  Montanabw (talk) 17:40, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * What a shame, she was a lovely looking little thing. Eric   Corbett  18:19, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed, a true beauty. She has her own facebook album too!  Montanabw (talk) 20:30, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Aahaaa the closet pet-rescuers thread (puts hand up) - at our local markets last year there was a puppy/dog rescue stall and I was nagged by my kids for a second dog...I declined but stated that I'd be happy for our household to be emergency foster carers for dogs that were about to be put down pending placement with a potential new owner. Since then we've saved 8 dogs and 4 kitten/cats from Death Row - two Australian Kelpies - very lively but lovable dogs. Just recently we've inherited tempoarily Charley the chocolate labrador who is 9 kg overweight but adorable. However, I am amazed at the difference in appetite - we have a cavoodle who is fussy with food, compared with which the labrador, who willl assimilate all organic matter its mouth comes anywhere in the vicinity of.....(chuckle) - nice though as saving pets seems to be teaching my kids some altruism....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:04, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Bramshill House
Hello, I just wanted to introduce myself and let you know I am glad to be reviewing the article Bramshill House you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by GA bot, on behalf of Tim riley -- 12:06, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Review done. A few minor comments on the review page await your consideration. Tim riley (talk) 08:56, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

That's me told then
Even the IPs are out to get me now.
 * Your scalp is a trophy, Eric. You are Gangster No. 1, you are Alex DeLarge. It's a shitty job, for sure, but take pride in it. Like good cop/bad cop, you and Dennis are the two greatest inspirations to me on Wikipedia, the only ones who keep me coming back and adding content. I wish I had just half of your grasp of syntax and grammar and half of Dennis' wisdom and patience. (Although mostly I wish Wikipedia wasn't infested with so many passive-aggressive, authoritarian assholes.) Keri (talk) 21:04, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Montanabw (talk) 22:09, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Many have thought they'd claimed my scalp, but so far none have. Dennis and I need to chill out by working on another muscle car. Eric   Corbett  23:10, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I've been getting IPs' messages on my talk page as well. Keri, I resemble that remark. Eric, yes, Bramshill House was on the front page last week or so; the DYK template is on my talk page, and it made it into the 5000+ views section at WP:DYKSTATS or thereabouts. As for muscle cars, perhaps your satellite can pick up R U Faster Than a Redneck? It's totally stupid and fun. Drmies (talk) 01:44, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Ha, that IP's remark is cute. Reverting it simply means you hate rich people and their particular sensibilities, which are all good, and the 'vibe' it promotes. Ha, class warfare. Drmies (talk) 01:47, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd love to ship my Jaguar XJ220 over for that. If I had a Jaguar XJ220 that is. Eric   Corbett  17:11, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I have a Camry, an old one. After Mrs. Drmies washed it it was so white it hurt my eyes. Anyway, I was in the graduation ceremony yesterday, in full regalia and all. I had been told that it's quite alright to wear honor cords and medals and stuff when you're faculty (and apparently you can wear whatever you like on your head--I have a colleague who wears a leopard-print hat to graduation). So I finally put my Alabama graduation "medal" to good use, and I used my Sigma Tau Delta cords to dangle a Mercedes star from my neck, a big plastic one I got off Ebay. Next time I might wear a clock, Flavor Flav-style. Drmies (talk) 22:30, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I like the clock idea. I didn't go to my own graduation ceremony as it was 200 miles away and I couldn't be arsed. Eric   Corbett  16:17, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "Couldn't be arsed" is one of my favourite idioms. It says so much with just three words. Ultimate use I have heard so far? On a casevac exercise - where each simulated casualty is expected to give you a brief run-down of their situation/symptoms in order for you to carry out the required actions - a gunner from 19th Regiment Royal Artillery, when asked why he was lying half out of his (simulated) exploded LandRover: "I couldn't be arsed to drive back to camp." Keri (talk) 16:37, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the ce
I appreciate your edits to HMS Warrior. As a result of watching you I have taught myself the difference between which and that which turns out to be really simple. I don't know how I have got this far through life without knowing it. Thanks for your erudition. --John (talk) 17:17, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks. -- Laser brain  (talk)  17:32, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I blame the teachers John. They instill nonsense "rules" such as i' before 'e' except after 'c, and never begin a sentence with a conjunction, but they neglect to teach the basics. Eric   Corbett  17:41, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the "i before e" is a particularly stupid one. I remember Stephen Fry examining it on QI a couple of years ago. --John (talk) 17:45, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I remember that too: "ceiling". Eric   Corbett  17:50, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "Ceiling" is one of the minority that follow the rule. "Weird" is a common word which breaks the rule. Mind you, I am not a particular fan of starting sentences with conjunctions, though I would not claim this to be a "rule". In the English language, as on Wikipedia, there are very few hard-and-fast rules. Just consensuses and precedents. --John (talk) 18:08, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * IIRC Fowler stated the belief that sentences ought not to start with a conjunction was a superstition. Eric   Corbett  22:20, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I feel better now - I am guilty of using the construction, "However,..." Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:53, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That ought to be a hanging offence really, but given that we've abolished capital punishment you ought to say three Hail Marys and one Lords Prayer. Eric   Corbett  23:58, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't that be three "Don't over use commas" and one "copyeditors are the Lord's annointed"? Ealdgyth - Talk 00:04, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The copyediting thing is curious really in the WP context. It's not highly regarded and often done badly, yet it can be the make or break for an article at GAN or FAC. Eric   Corbett  00:14, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It is a very odd thing. I've never understood it. The ability to copyedit without destroying the meaning is something that isn't easy to do, especially if you don't know the subject. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:35, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I know fuck all about fuck all, so it's second nature to me. Eric   Corbett  00:46, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There's a bit of a double negative there so I'll assume you are being self-deprecating. Being a teacher for 25 years and a parent for 10 has helped me to realise the limits of my knowledge; hopefully that comes with some kind of corresponding wisdom increase though I am not always sure about that. Mark Twain put it very well: "When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."

- Mark Twain . Got friends coming to visit from Germany so if I post here again later it's likely I'll have been sampling some alcoholic beverages, as our American cousins like to call them. Happy Friday. --John (talk) 19:49, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Protocol for Content Vetting
Hi Eric, I'm writing, here, because I'm confused. We've been going back and forth on the Information technology talk page and it was pointed out that maybe I should be speaking to you on your personal Talk page, instead. Is speaking with you via your personal Talk page the preferred method, or is it preferred to discuss and vet things on the Talk page of the article being discussed, itself? -- My Best, --FGuerino (talk) 21:49, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Eric. It was my suggestion that the editor engage you directly instead of on the article talk page to see if there was anything from their draft worth using. Happy editing.-- Mark Just ask! WER TEA DR/N 22:01, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I just saw that Mark, thanks.
 * @FGuerino. There's already a section in the IT article on commercial perspectives, and it could do with beefing up and a supporting article on the information technology industry, which is currently a redirect to information technology. That's what I'm talking about. Progress has been held up on this article for ages now, for various reasons, none of them to do with me being resistant to change. Eric   Corbett  22:17, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * @ Mark : Thanks for the help and the advice.
 * Hi Eric,
 * First, please let me say that I'm genuinely sorry for the nonsense you seem to be go through. I did some searching to understand what's going on (more in an attempt to learn about the WP politics and handling of issues) and, to my distaste, found that there's a long history of this stuff.  I don't know what else to say on the subject other than many of us have been through similar things with different communities on the internet and, as a result, I can truly empathize.  I sincerely hope you find resolution in a peaceful and satisfactory manner.
 * While this is probably the last thing that's on your mind right now, I figured I'd ask for clarification on the Information technology industry redirect to IT. (Hopefully, it might even help take your mind off of the other nonsense.)
 * Please know that while I do understand that there is a section on the IT page that tries to go into industry information, I believe that the redirect to the page acts more like and implies a synonym to the average reader... as in "Information technology industry" also means "Information technology." This would support the position that I was talking about when describing that one branch of the definition for IT is Industry, in addition to Technology.
 * Also, were you stating that:
 * The IT Industry section could use some expanding upon, directly in the IT page?
 * Or, were you stating that it would be a good idea to create a whole separate IT industry page?
 * Or, both of the above?
 * In any case, I'd be very happy to help setup and build out either as a means of learning how WP editing and publishing processes work best.
 * BTW, I did put some supporting material from Gartner and Forrester on the Talk:Information technology page that shows that they and their readers view "IT" to also mean an entire industry and not just technology. You might want to take a look at that, too.
 * --My Best, Frank --FGuerino (talk) 14:34, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * My suggestion is that what's needed is a whole new article on the IT industry, which should be linked to an overview section in the IT article. Eric   Corbett  14:53, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * OK. I get it and I'd definitely like to help with it.  For clarity... given that Information technology industry is currently a redirect/link to the Information Technology page, what's the proper process for unlinking the redirect and creating a page that would replace it?
 * For example...
 * Does the draft first get created somewhere like on my User Page, and then it gets developed, reviewed and ultimately published, finally replacing the redirect after it's developed and approved?
 * Or, does the redirect get removed, first, and a draft page immediately gets put in its place, and then the page is developed through review and acceptable publishing?
 * It appears to me that the former makes more sense than the latter but I'm not sure how WP policies impact such things.
 * Thanks again, -- Frank --FGuerino (talk) 16:45, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * There's no approval process as such, but what I'd do is either create the new article in my sandbox and move it to article space when I felt it was sufficiently developed or, more likely, create it directly in article space by editing the redirect page. So we don't need to remove the redirect page, we just edit its contents to turn it into a regular article page. Eric   Corbett  18:11, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * OK. I'd hate to have a page created that had no meaningful content so, if it's ok with you, I can create a page in my sandbox and start to put together some content that can act as the starting point.  I can then point you to it (and any other reviewers you think would be helpful on the topic) and then we can create the page and seed it with that initial content.  It can then grow from there.  If you're ok with this, I'll start to work on some content, right away.  Thanks, --FGuerino (talk) 18:43, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * That sounds fine to me, good luck. Eric   Corbett  19:00, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

As required
Hello. There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Ferret baiting. Thank you.

(Before some eejit tries to block me for not notifying you on your talk: page, as required.) Andy Dingley (talk) 00:51, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The only question remaining is on what basis I should be blocked. Eric   Corbett  00:57, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Grumpiness. Hey, I had two delicious beers and a really nice BLT by way of an anniversary treat. The girls are in the pool, and so is Liam. Ten years, Malleus. Now you go have a beer, or some nice Bourgogne, and cheers to you and to Dr. Malleus/Corbett. Drmies (talk) 01:09, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * And Andy, I'm not a eejit, so I can't block you--I'm just a regular moron. Drmies (talk) 01:11, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why I'm expected to put up with this kind of shit every single fucking day. Eric   Corbett  01:26, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * This user posted quite a bit of personal information about you—are these things that you previously made known? -- Laser brain  (talk)  01:53, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It was published in the Manchester Evening News, and my wife appeared on a Granada TV political programme, so it's not exactly a secret. Eric   Corbett  01:56, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah. Well, it's a disgusting display of baiting and I'm keeping an eye on the situation. -- Laser brain  (talk)  01:59, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * What I'm not happy about is being made fun of because I try to help lost, abandoned and unwanted ferrets. When did that become a crime? Eric   Corbett  02:24, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * People around here just let them go in the forest after they discover that the ferrets are more work than they anticipated. I don't know why they can't at least read the stupid booklet they give out free at the pet store before buying it. -- Laser brain  (talk)  02:32, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Whoa, I missed the stuff in the article--I thought this was just some banter on the talk page. My apologies for my shortsightedness. Drmies (talk) 02:31, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Had it just been some banter on the talk page there wouldn't have been a problem. Eric   Corbett  18:04, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Eric, as I've mentioned previously in conversation on your talkpage, I greatly respect both your ferret-related and Wikipedia work. Anyone who thinks that I would bait another editor in order to get a reaction worthy of dragging them off to AN/I is way off the mark. I won't post here again if that's what you wish, I'm sorry you failed to see the funny side. Regards. -- Mike
 * I think the ongoing ferret-related banter on your talk page along with a reference to "Uncle Eric" speaks for itself. I don't think we have anything more to say to each other. Eric   Corbett  21:54, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Bramshill House
The article Bramshill House you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Bramshill House for comments about the article. Well done! Message delivered by GA bot, on behalf of Tim riley -- 17:18, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Good grief! Speaking as a human being I desire to associate myself with the bot's remarks. Tim riley (talk) 18:24, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for undertaking the review Tim. Eric   Corbett  18:26, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow, that was fast. Thanks for the review! Eric, what do you think needs to be done for the next step? Drmies (talk) 18:46, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * We need to make sure the article is comprehensive, there's nothing obvious we've missed, give some consideration to a floor pan or come up with a good explanation of why one can't be produced, and generally do a bit more polishing. Eric   Corbett  18:58, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, hopefully Yngvadottir can find some more details. No rush anyway.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  20:22, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There may be no more significant details to be found, but we need to be pretty sure of that before we toddle off to FAC. Eric   Corbett  20:27, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * As I have said on the talkpage, there are plans in Cope (although of course they are from before the poor thing was converted from a house). I'll ask around to see whether anyone can help me upload them, unless someone pulls the panic chain regarding copyright. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:40, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Depending on the quality of the images we might do better to redraw them. In fact that might be the best option regardless. 20:52, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * It's a nice article but the images are disappointing. I had a look on Flickr but there are no compatible images.  Unfortunately I'm unlikely to be down in that region anytime soon, but if I am I'll try and get some decent pics. Parrot of Doom 20:56, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, I quite agree, particularly on the interior. Intuition tells me that those Country Life black and white images are probably not clear-cut PD images and I can see them being deleted at some stage. The images themselves were taken in 1923 rather than prior to 1923, UK images are not under US copyright law but I think the 70 years after the death of author applies in the UK. We'd have to assume that the photographer died before 1943 which does seem rather presumptuous and probably lived a lot longer than that if somebody checked up on the photographer's full name and life dates. I thought it worth a try as it seems silly to me though that images taken 90 years ago could have copyright problems, but if we're to take this to FA it really needs to be verified completely. It would be great if we could get some modern colour interior images, perhaps we could contact the coppers and ask them for some images?♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  21:16, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * What we need are pictures of the interior before it was converted to a police college, so I doubt the coppers would be able to help. Eric   Corbett  21:58, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The real estate agent will probably have an interest in our article looking as good as it can. Drmies (talk) 23:22, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Quite possibly. Eric   Corbett  23:41, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I can ask at the national archive next week if you want? Darkness Shines (talk) 00:10, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, although I think some of the rooms and furnishings are still intact, the art work is still on the walls etc.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  08:23, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * A E Henson, the photographer, was still employed by Country Life in 1953. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 14:17, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * We'll have to dump those images then. Eric   Corbett  14:26, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Aww, I was afraid of that when I originally found them. However, the website they came from cites when some of them were used. So I'll ask again, can any of you over there get access to back issues of Country Life? There is presumably at least one luscious article about life at Bramshill. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:44, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't, but I doubt Country Life has much, as it's really just an estate agent's brochure. But there's an article about Bramshill on their web site now in fact, here. Eric   Corbett  20:27, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

This ..
was different.. here Ealdgyth - Talk 00:00, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Now you're talking. Unfortunately the Loudun possessions article isn't in great shape though, and I've got a little kitten to bring up. Eric   Corbett  00:18, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Kittens nap. Of course, one of mine is napping on my books.. bad Rufus!Ealdgyth - Talk 00:22, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Ours keeps wanting to nap on my keyboard for some reason. Eric   Corbett  00:27, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * They probably figure you've been petting that key board enough dammit...now pet them. :-)-- Mark Just ask! WER TEA DR/N 00:31, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I've long maintained that cats can tell how expensive things are ... and they will choose the most expensive item (and most breakable) to sleep on. This is borne our by the fact that our cat is now sleeping on a pile of basically irreplacable late 19th century bound issues of the Jockey Club's newspaper - the Racing Calendar. (this for the curious (Yes, Montanabw, I own something that the Library of Congress doesn't own on racing.)) At least they are declawed... Ealdgyth - Talk 00:44, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I've never considered declawing our cats, which I think might even be illegal in the UK, as they need them to defend themselves against the ferrets. The little bugger's sitting on my shoulder now, batting my ear. Eric   Corbett  01:03, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I would never declaw (ours are only front declawed) an outdoor cat, but all ours are totally indoor cats. Too many things that eat cats where we live. The barn cat that was in our barn when we bought the place was torn to bits by either a feral dog pack or coyotes. I have no more barn cats... get too attached and just can't handle the stress. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:24, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Even front declawing would be illegal in the UK, as an "unnecessary mutilation". The same applies to de-scenting ferrets, which I believe is commonplace in the US. Eric   Corbett  02:12, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Toasty has all her claws still, but when you think about the damage those claws can do--this and this. "We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.4–3.7 billion birds and 6.9–20.7 billion mammals annually. Un-owned cats, as opposed to owned pets, cause the majority of this mortality." Drmies (talk) 04:48, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

"Kittehs." Oh we just don't need much to get started, do we? My cats also have a traditional penchant for keyboards and laptops. As did my bird (a cockatiel) when he was on the loose. I guess they figure if WE are so very interested, then it must be interesting too... LOL! Montanabw (talk) 20:18, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

History of tuberculosis
Just thought this page might be of interest to you, Eric. Regards from an ip, 86.130.63.47 (talk) 18:41, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Borley Rectory
Hello, I just wanted to introduce myself and let you know I am glad to be reviewing the article Borley Rectory you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by GA bot, on behalf of Pyrotec -- 20:26, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks Pyrotec. Eric   Corbett  20:30, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I turned your red link blue, at Borley Church--it's got a few blank spots still. Drmies (talk) 02:38, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a nice little article you've knocked up there pretty quickly. Eric   Corbett  11:53, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I think I'm jealous that I don't live in Europe any more. I miss it. Drmies (talk) 14:42, 11 August 2013 (UTC)


 * It may also have a few tidbits that are of interest to you. Drmies (talk) 03:10, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Aw, I'd have loved to have collaborated on this one. I've been fascinated with this place since I saw it on Strange but True? in 1994! That was a great series, not sure if you saw it!♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  09:47, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Strangely enough I don't remember that series at all. Eric   Corbett  11:53, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * You can watch it here. One of my favourite TV series ever. Worth checking out the Phantom Hitchhiker on the N9 road (South Africa), the monks on the Stockbridge By-Pass, A Scottish stone and the others too.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  12:02, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I used to drive along the Stocksbridge By-Pass every working day when I worked in Sheffield, and I'm sure that one night I saw something that looked very much like that monk. Eric   Corbett  12:27, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Doesn't surprise me, it's supposed to be one of the most haunted spots in the UK. The children singing in a circle though which was mentioned as being seen in that episode I find more frightening! One of the episodes was about a computer message apparently sent from the year 2109. It had a range of the paranormal, usually two cases per episodes, far more stylish with the music and Michael Aspel presenting than most of the US trashy series on things like ghosts. They're really all worth watching if you can access the episodes. The Phantom Hitchhiker who was killed on the N9 in a car accident and later hitched a lift form a biker who gave her ear phones to listen to music and disappeared half way through the ride and left his ear phones completely corroded was the best episode I can recall. I watched it again on youtube about a year ago but I think it got deleted.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  13:16, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Want a simple but real task?
I have Paynter (horse) up for GA. You helped with his half-brother, Oxbow. This one is shorter, easier, but the horse is also quirky (as are his owners, they have a twitter feed going on him). He's also racing this weekend (as is Oxbow, but in a different race), so maybe do a basic run-through to catch everything that needs fixing now, but another paragraph (or at least a sentence or two) wIll be added on Monday ... Montanabw (talk) 17:13, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hey Eric, seeing as how you appear (below) to have bailed on a GAN, want to review this one? It's still languishing in GAN limbo. You won't even have to call me an asshole... ;-)    Montanabw (talk) 21:23, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll look at it tomorrow. I know how disappointing it is to have to wait for GA reviews, and after Bramshill House I owe one. Eric   Corbett  21:28, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Cool. Not sure how solid the article is, have not had eyes on it other than mine for the most part, (though Froggerlaura did her part) but at least you know my style -good and bad!   Montanabw (talk) 22:36, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * And you know mine. Eric   Corbett  22:51, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Exactly. And thanks for helping with this, I've responded to your post on the one issue raised so far.   Montanabw (talk) 19:29, 13 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your thorough(bred) review. ;)  Montanabw (talk) 05:33, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Copyedit/comment request
I know you are a busy man, but if you can find the time I would greatly appreciate a few edits/comments at Ringo Starr, currently at FAC. Cheers! GabeMc (talk&#124;contribs)  21:21, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I won't be able to help. Eric   Corbett  21:29, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * No worries. Best wishes! GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  21:30, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Information Technology (IT) Industry Article
Hi Eric,

As discussed, I spent some time putting together an article on the IT Industry, located at User:FGuerino/Information technology (IT) industry, that is intended to be distinct and separate from IT (as in ICT). And, while I think it can definitely be improved, I believe there is enough to start to move it forward so that others can help review and contribute to it. I was hoping you could help me understand the next steps for proper review and/or submission for GA. Any recommendations?

My Best, Frank --FGuerino (talk) 01:01, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The article is a long way from being ready for GA, but once you've moved it to main space you might usefully try it at WP:DYK to get some feedback. Also, once it's in main space others can help improve it. Just a few specific points:
 * I don't think your proposed title meets the Manual of Style recommendation, which is that "The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles". People are likely to search for either "Information technology industry" or "IT industry", not "Information technology (IT) industry".
 * The MoS also says that section headers shouldn't start with "The".
 * The claim that billions of people are involved in the IT industry simply because they use a mobile phone doesn't really hold water.
 * I think you go way too far back in your consideration of the historical background. Added to which I believe it's now generally accepted that Franklin is highly unlikely to have actually carried out that kite-flying experiment. This article is about the IT industry, not the background to IT, which is covered in the IT article. What we need to know in this article is when did the IT industry begin to blossom, who were the early players?
 * The first computers section is inaccurate, incomplete, and completely US-centric. For instance, in the context of the IT industry the most significant product isn't ENIAC but the Ferranti Mark I, the world's first commercially available general-purpose computer. What you need in this article is a brief overview of the IT article with a link to the main article, not a rehashing of the history of IT. Eric   Corbett  11:49, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Eric,
 * I think all of your feedback is pretty clear except for your statement that the title does not meet the proposed MoS. What do you believe it is that needs correcting?  Is it the parenthesis with the abbreviation?  (BTW, how do abbreviations normally get handled in article titles?).
 * Thanks for the help, Frank --FGuerino (talk) 12:14, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * By the way, I was a little confused about your reference to the Ferranti Mark I being the first computer so I went and compared the two WP pages Ferranti Mark I and ENIAC, the dates in the WP articles seem to be consistent with most computer books that give a historical accounting of computing. The ENIAC was delivered five years earlier than the Ferranti Mark I.  Is it possible that you're confusing the Ferranti Mark I with the UNIVAC, which was delivered shortly after the Ferranti Mark I, also about five years after the ENIAC?
 * My Best, --FGuerino (talk) 12:37, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * It's the abbreviation in the article title I'm referring to, and I'm suggesting that it shouldn't be there. I never said that the Ferranti was the first computer (and neither was ENIAC as it happens); what I said was that the Ferranti was the world's first commercially available general-purpose computer. And as we're talking about the IT industry, that seems far more more significant than a one-off project for the US military. Eric   Corbett  13:02, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Regarding the ENIAC and the Ferranti Mark I... I originally created this section in an attempt to highlight the significance of the the birth of the first electronic computer with no intent to address commercialization, which I agree is also an important topic that I had not considered.  I've added content about the Ferranti Mark I being the first commercially available electronic computer.  I believe that having both events clearly improves the section.


 * Regarding the title of the article... I read the Manual of Style and the Article titles (which it pointed me to).  In both cases, the format of the title seems correct and appropriate, as abbreviations or acronyms appear to be allowable when they're commonly used.  Also, the parenthesis are not considered to be unsupported special characters which is the only thing the policies advise against.  If this is incorrect, could you please point me to the correct policies so I may better understand them.  Also, if it does need to be changed, could I please trouble you to point me to the procedures for doing so without disrupting any of the work or history of the article's progression?


 * Thanks again, Frank --FGuerino (talk) 13:52, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * But ENIAC was by no means the first electronic computer, that was Colossus, and it was never able to store its programs, so it was a dead end both technically and commercially. I already pointed you to the policy on article naming, which to put it in simpler language says that the title ought to be what a reader might reasonably be expected to type in to find the article. Nobody, absolutely nobody, is likely to type in "Information technology (IT) industry". When you move the article into main space you can give it any title you like, but obviously it ought to be moved over the existing IT industry redirect. I'm beginning to wonder why you keep asking for my advice when you're so reluctant to follow it. Eric   Corbett  14:14, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * For the title, you should EITHER pick Information Technology Industry or IT Industry, not both. Having had a quick browse through your draft in its present state, there's a massive chunk of history missing (while the inclusion of coin-operated arcade games seems puzzling). Currently it reads like "electricity, then first computers, compression, internet, arcades, WWW and poof, there's your industry". What happened in the 60ies and 70ies with the IBMs, HPs, Digital Equipments, Sperrys and all the others that built an industry? That's what is interesting about the history. As for the present... what is the size of the industry? What are the remaining key players? What are the major markets and trends? That's what would be expected under such an ambitious title. MLauba (Talk) 14:47, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi, again.


 * Regarding following your advice, please be patient with me. Please understand that it's not that I'm unwilling to follow your advice, it's just that I want to understand things to the best of my ability before making the changes.  And, while I respect your body of work and experience, please understand that I've found you're not always right.  For example, you mentioned that "Nobody, absolutely nobody, is likely to type in Information technology (IT) industry" when searching.  We get daily reports from some of the major Search companies (including the big G) to understand and watch our consistent rise against the terms in the reports.  These SERP reports show that people do, in fact, type in this string, and it is far more common and frequent than you'd think.  (This is not to say I'm not going to change the title, which I gladly will.)  In previous discussions, you also mentioned that ITIL was a fad, after it's being around for about 2 decades, and that it had little use outside of government when, in fact, it has much greater and establishment in private industry, outside of government.  So, please understand that I tend to try my best to understand things before jumping in and making changes.  I always come around when I see the documented facts and I'm using this whole experience as a learning process.


 * Also, some things you recommend, such as what you find important in the history versus what I find important in the history are based on our opinions, neither being right or wrong, so I'm trying to work in as a much as I can to accommodate both and make the article as interesting as possible, across the board. Your criticisms are heard and followed far more than you think.  I just need you to be patient as I work things in.   Hopefully, you've noticed that I've arguably put more into the topic in a weekend than many contributors have published, together and in years, for the general Information technology article.  So, given some time and review from a broader audience, I'm hoping it will evolve quite nicely.


 * Regarding Colossus and your points on B. Franklin and Electricity, those corrections will be worked in as soon as I have time.


 * Thanks, Frank --FGuerino (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Nobody is always right, not even me, but I'm right far, far more often than I'm wrong, and in this instance I'm bang on the money. Your suggested article only mentions the IT industry in passing, and what coin-operated arcade games has to do with the IT industry completely escapes me I'm afraid. You obviously don't have in any faith in what I've been trying to tell you for weeks now, so here's what I suggest you do. Publish your article under whatever title you think fits best, nominate it at WP:GAN, and see just how long it takes for it to crash and burn. You're not listening to me, so I don't think there's any point in our continuing with this discussion. Eric   Corbett  18:56, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Eric,


 * It's as if you personally want to be irritated all the time. For clarity, I keep coming back to you because I do have faith in what you're saying and because I feel that you're a smart person who I can learn a great deal from.  If I didn't, you would have been ignored immediately, as I looked for someone more competent.  Let's face it, it's not your personality that keeps me coming back!  ;-)


 * BTW, where did I ever say that I wouldn't implement anything you suggested? I just wanted to understand and double check everything to be absolutely certain, before doing so, and I intentionally ask a lot of questions so I can learn.


 * Now, where may I please find the procedures for properly changing the name of the article without damaging the history?


 * As for the article content, again, please be patient. I have a long list of open items I'm working on and I'm in no rush.  It will all come together.


 * My Best, Frank --FGuerino (talk) 00:05, 13 August 2013 (UTC)


 * About how to move/rename an article, hope this helps / hope this is at the right level: you don't need to be an admin, and you can/should just move it yourself.  It's a menu option, above the article, perhaps under a triangle, to "Move".  Select that, and you can move it from User:FGuerino/Information technology (IT) industry to User:FGuerino/Information technology industry or to Information technology (IT) industry or whatever.  Pay attention to the first part of the two part title, i.e. User: or (Article).  It's only if there's already a page at the target title, that there is any problem.  Otherwise, you can follow instructions at wp:RM to request help with a move. -- do  ncr  am  01:35, 13 August 2013 (UTC)


 * doncram, thanks for the instructions. I appreciate the help.  Frank --FGuerino (talk) 21:10, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Articles reviewed
For some reason every GA reviewer now has a tally in brackets of articles reviewed I think. I was surprised to learn that I've reviewed 111 articles, I've only been recording the last 75 but I thought it was more 90. Do you know where they're getting their information from and if the articles reviewed by reviewer has some page on here? I'm sure I saw something a while back on articles reviewed and I didn't bother including myself but it seems it is now doing it automatically?♦ Dr. Blofeld  20:31, 13 August 2013 (UTC)


 * No idea where it comes from, or what its purpose is. Eric   Corbett  20:48, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

It seems pointless to me, and I don't like the fact that it places emphasis on review count like some competition for all to see, a little creepy actually! Did you get around to watching those Strange But True? episodes afterwards?♦ Dr. Blofeld  20:53, 13 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I watched the one on the Stocksbridge By-Pass, and I'll probably have another look at what's available later after I catch up with the latest episode of Count Arthur Strong on iPlayer. Eric   Corbett  20:59, 13 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I saw Count Arthur on stage, I prefer the radio version so I don't have to look at him, he's rather creepy. I think the tv version is awful, I only saw the first one. J3Mrs (talk) 16:46, 15 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I think both the radio and TV series are great, and I can't wait for the second series. It's just about the only comedy programme I watch that makes me laugh out loud. You should watch the last episode, which is on iPlayer, it's really good. Eric   Corbett  18:06, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * My husband laughs out loud but I usually squirm, I don't like creepy men. J3Mrs (talk) 18:15, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't imagine what it is about him that you find creepy, but there you go. Mr Bean is my idea of a creepy man, and Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em always made me squirm. Eric   Corbett  18:19, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it's the pencil moustache. J3Mrs (talk) 11:12, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Ricky Gervais in The Office makes me squirm too. J3Mrs (talk) 18:33, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Another squirmer comes to mind, the first series of Blackadder: Mr Bean in the 14th century. Eric   Corbett  22:15, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Doug Hutchison and Dean Gaffney are the creepiest guys I can think of. David Mitchell (comedian) has creepy eyes!♦ Dr. Blofeld  08:42, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Our naming conventions
I was surprised to see that Great Eastern Hotel, London was renamed to Andaz Liverpool Street London Hotel. I don't know why that rubs me the wrong way, or maybe I do (besides the fact that the mover didn't think to ask anyone's opinion)--I don't think the title of the article should depend on the present owner of the joint. The place had 122 years of history as "Great Eastern Hotel", and the present owner (not even owner--their brand) is just a speck of fly poop on the radar screen. Does our MOS mandate that present ownership/present name determines title? Even if history speaks against it? Sigh. Drmies (talk) 00:06, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * If Newcastle Central station is possible, any of that sort of crap is possible, Andy Dingley (talk) 01:27, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * According to WP:COMMONNAME, you go for whatever the majority is in the sources you cite. If most sources talk about "Great Eastern Hotel", and the bulk of the article is cited to those references, and due weight is followed, then Great Eastern is what you should use. To give another example, Rowntree's has not been officially recognised as that name since 1969, yet that's what's on the article name (although Rowntree Mackintosh, the last UK-only name before Nestle moved in in extremely controversial circumstances, is also used). Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   15:53, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes we should not give in to WP:Recentism. Ian Spackman (talk) 16:53, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems has done the rounds on a number of hotel articles, saying "hotel has been renamed" without discussion. I have set up a requested move on the talk page - since the move is controversial we have to go discuss. Have your say!  Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   17:18, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks Ritchie, I appreciate it. Drmies (talk) 02:55, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Latest bad boy...
How's Roger Norreis looking to you? Battle of Hastings just passed FAC, and I'm ready for an obscure clergyman for a bit. Still trying to get the energy up to work on Harry or Eddy Ealdgyth - Talk 21:22, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure it's quite ready, but I'll take another look through tomorrow. Eric   Corbett  21:39, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


 * That's fine. Again, I should thank you for all you do with copyediting my stuff. I don't want you to ever think I don't appreciate it greatly. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:47, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I was watching a TV programme on the Anglo-Saxons the other evening, which was mostly about Alfred's children, and in particular Æthelflæd. What a formidable woman she must have been, pity our article doesn't really do her justice. Eric   Corbett  16:12, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I came,
I kinda wrote, I failed. I should not have pissed you off Darkness Shines (talk) 21:17, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It's rarely a good idea. Eric   Corbett  21:35, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Which? pissing you off or failing Darkness Shines (talk) 21:43, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Failure is sometimes inevitable, luck of the draw, but it's quite easy to avoid pissing me off. Just don't be dishonest, a complete dork, or try to patronise me. Eric   Corbett  21:51, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I am guessing I am the dork then? My honesty tends to get me in the shite, and I suck at patronizing given I can barely spell it. Please tell me I did not try to patronize you? If so it was purely a drunken accident, dork I can live with, even arsehole, but to patronize, ugh. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:56, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Drunken accident I can empathise with, we've all been there. I ought to have included that in the list. Eric   Corbett  22:02, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Well I am sorry for being all of the above, I never actually meant to piss you off. But it no longer matters, if you recall a while ago on Dennis's talk I mentioned an admin who was stalking me, well he did it again and muffed up the FA, personally I thought it was damn close anyway, but so long as he has his axe to grind I will never get it there, again thanks for the help, and I am sorry to have been such a dick to have pissed you off. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:10, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It was always going to be a difficult article to get through FAC. Eric   Corbett  22:12, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The thing is Eric, it should not have been, I spent over a year reading and researching this, it is as close to being spot on as one could hope for, I honestly think I covered everything. Bet you a tenner if I were a popular guy it would have pissed it. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:17, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I dunno. I'm not a popular editor, but I've only had one FAC flop, which I'll sort out one day. Eric   Corbett  22:34, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That would be because you are far better than I at writing, cheers and take care. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:36, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Darkness, if there is a long-standing dispute over the article neutrality then it would never stand a chance of passing FAC anyway. Issues really need to be sorted out before nomming, otherwise they'll manifest at the FAC.♦ Dr. Blofeld  08:39, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Teahouse
I've hatted the discussion there where you were pretty obviously the topic of discussion. To be frank, I've never seen discussions like that before at the Teahouse. I don't really care about who is right / wrong in the disagreement you two had, but when I don't think an editor is taking my advice (and I advise many new editors), I usually just disengage and direct them to someone or someplace else without saying that they're not listening to me. Might be worth considering next time. <font color="green" face="Candara">I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 01:27, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * If I ever feel in need of your advice I'll rattle your cage. Have you addressed FGuerino's personal attacks simply by hiding them? Are you really naive enough to believe that the question wasn't in reality a vehicle for those attacks? Eric   Corbett  01:31, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Eric, I regret that this guy keeps discussing his grudges with you at the Teahouse. I also apologize for my poor word choice on his talk page. I did not intend to predict anything, as I have learned long ago that my crystal ball is cloudy. Best regards.  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328  Let's discuss it  01:44, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The so-called friendly Teahouse ought to have dealt with that immediately, but chose to ignore it, because a new editor such as FGuerino is so much more important than an old editor like me. I'm just a number, I can easily be replaced. Eric   Corbett  01:48, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That's fine-- you can take it or leave it all the same. I talked to FGuerino about their comments on their talk page here. I don't think there is much else to be done now except get on with our business. <font color="green" face="Candara">I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 01:56, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * So you're determined to avoid the problem, that the Teahouse was allowed to become a forum for personal attacks. Fine. Eric   Corbett  02:10, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That feels unfair to me. Look, I'm also frustrated that these kinds of comments appeared on the Teahouse-- it's not what we're about.  But after keeping the comments redacted, hatting the thread because it was unproductive, and speaking to the editor directly to admonish that behavior, what would you have me do, exactly?  <font color="green" face="Candara">I, Jethrobot  drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 02:27, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Take your blinkers off and recognise the truth. FGuerino wasn't asking a question. Eric   Corbett  02:41, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The Teahouse is not a living being with consciousness, Eric. It is simply a place for experienced editors to answer questions from newer editors. Accordingly, the response to such matters depends on which Teahouse host is available to field which which question, and they may not always have the time or insight for a complete investigation. Sometimes, it may not be immediately clear whether a new editor is acting in good faith, or is grinding an axe. I have tried, at least twice, to speak in your defense, or at least to present a more balanced view incorporating the positive contributions you have made to this project. I venture to guess that you may think that I am a wimp. So be it. But is it necessary to skewer your allies as well as your adversaries?  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328  Let's discuss it  04:07, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know if Eric can take all the blame here. Sorry, but this situation began at the Teahouse with the other editor and ended with the other editor making personal attacks...back at the Teahouse. Read what Eric is saying. Look at how much time was put into the engaging the other editor. Will Eric ever be as sweet as a rose here? I doubt that, but sometimes we try as hard as we can, and in this situation I can tell you that Eric tried. We really can't ask much more, but I know for a fact that he was attempting to help the other editor.--<font face="Mistral" size="3;" style="text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #999;"> Mark 05:20, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think Eric was at fault in this matter, Mark. He was a bit abrasive regarding a content dispute, but nothing that constituted a personal attack. The other editor just can't give it up and move on, and just moans and groans at every opportunity. OMG, a child might read adults having a forceful debate. The tyke will be scarred for life!  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328  Let's discuss it  23:31, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I simply pointed out the truth, which is that Fguerino isn't competent to write an article on IT or the IT industry. Call that a personal attack if you will, or even bullying as FGuerino does, but it remains a fact nevertheless. Eric   Corbett  23:56, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

The Teahouse is increasingly being visited by passive-aggressive forum-shoppers in this way. Their catty and sometimes underhand behaviour is being rewarded and reinforced by often well-meaning but naive and meddlesome do-gooders giving them saucers of milk and scratching their ears. Keri (talk) 09:37, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm rather surprised that Jethrobot is so clearly unable to see that. Eric   Corbett  14:24, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Attractively coloured.....
Is "attractively coloured....." a grammatical no-no? See Featured article candidates/Boletus calopus/archive1 for context - I was surprised as I'd never come across that before and I thought it was a good neat construction......Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:47, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It's fine grammatically, but it does beg the question of attractive to whom? Eric   Corbett  12:52, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Books talk about how pretty it is - I guess sometimes writers assume some supposed objectivity with these things, like peacocks, roses, y'know..pretty things. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:14, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I don't have a problem with saying it's attractively coloured, I was just playing devil's advocate. Eric   Corbett  13:24, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes so was I - I don't really like roses as much as Australian flora either. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:36, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

PS: Note discussion and dilemma on "pending" too for bonus points....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:50, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Pending of course means in anticipation of, or waiting on, so "will most likely be placed in a new genus pending further study" is clearly not correct. You could say "has been placed in a new genus pending further study", but that's not the sense of what you're trying to say, so something like "after further study" is better. Eric   Corbett  12:58, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmmmm, so one would only use "pending" if it already had been placed in a new genus and that placement depended on the study....? Had to read that a couple of times....thx. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:14, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That's my understanding, yes. Eric   Corbett  13:24, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Ned Painter
More details here from p. 49-53♦ Dr. Blofeld  21:07, 16 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I just wanted to make a start on it, nothing more. Eric   Corbett  21:27, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, I doubt it'll ever be expanded much further, I can't imagine too many biographical details existing for him and we don't want to reel off every punch thrown in the fight of course.. ♦ Dr. Blofeld  21:51, 16 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I simply felt that someone who has an ODNB article ought to have a WP one. Eric   Corbett  21:55, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

DNB too in my opinion. still about 10,000 missing articles stored on wiki source I believe. Not sure exactly how many missing ODNB articles there are but I gather it's in the thousands too. As if there isn't enough to do already... ODNB at least is updated though, some of the DNB articles have known inaccuracies of course.♦ Dr. Blofeld  22:09, 16 August 2013 (UTC)


 * And yet some use the excuse that there's nothing left to write about to explain WP's declining editor numbers. Eric   Corbett  23:05, 16 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Do people actually cite that as a reason? I'd think a stronger reason would be the rules that have grown in number and complexity, and an increasing (subjective to me) tendency for new editors to arrive here for the purpose of promoting something, whereupon they are blocked and don't return.


 * I seem to find a new article topic a couple times per year. Most of my creations tend to attract almost zero other editors, though. I thought funding bias and Just This Once would be sufficiently controversial or interesting that they would grow boundlessly, but that was not to be. At least my latest creation, Bitmessage, seems to have taken off. I haven't tried my hand at a full blown biography yet. The only one I've done is a stub, Sayyid Baraka, and I moved on to other things. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:13, 17 August 2013 (UTC)


 * They do, very frequently. Much easier than addressing the real problems here of course. Eric   Corbett  00:17, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Yep, and it's the ones who say "wikipedia has run out of topics" who do nothing to build content on wikipedia. Just looking on other wikipedias for five minutes gives you a headache with just how much is missing. And often whenever I start another article from another wikipedia most of the links in it end up being red links. There are millions of missing notable articles, especially if you consider that there are "hidden" topics on subjects in past periods which could have a general credible article written about them such as "Sheep farming in medieval Northumberland", "Road building in Roman Wales", "Neoclassical architecture in 18th century Florence" etc.♦ Dr. Blofeld  09:49, 17 August 2013 (UTC)


 * An interesting exercise is to look at the interwiki links on other languages' Featured Articles, and realise just how many of them are still redlinks on en-wiki, which is theoretically supposed to be the most complete of them all. We're not talking obscure popular-culture pages that wouldn't have any English-language interest, but relatively major topics like one of the most significant ecological reserves in Latin America, the former mass-transit network of a major French city and one of the defining moments in modern Germany's coming to terms with its wartime past—three of the areas (geography, railways and WWII) with which en-wiki is supposed to be most obsessed. – iridescent  11:08, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * And Britain's first private detective, who used his fee from his first case to build a terrace with busts of himself in disguise; the last man to be gibbeted in England (attracted 40,000 viewers in 3 days); and a merchant captain, trained in youth as a butcher, who served his ship's carpenter to the rest of the crew telling them it was "beef", and who went on to a successful career in the Russian navy. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 11:56, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

The statement that the encyclopaedia is almost finished or that nothing of major significance remains to be written up flabbers my gast every time I encounter it. I think it is a sad commentary on the state of education, or at best, on the limitation of the writer's frame of reference. Until recently (someone else wrote the stubs; despite the official classification of most of my articles, I don't like to write stubs) we had articles on only 2 or 3 of the stations on the Vienna U-Bahn, and I recall being mocked when I used that as an example in some discussion. I admit I can be accused of having peculiar tastes&mdash;I was the one finally got Techno Viking to stick after a long trail of deletions (there's even a YouTube video about Wikipedia not having an article on Techno Viking), I rushed in where angels fear to tread and did Vagindra script after the linguists wouldn't, and my current project is central and northern European wooden idols many of which are joyously ithyphallic&mdash;but that I should have had to write Organ building is a disgrace. And Kristni saga (I very very much did not want to write that, but unfortunately someone created it as a totally erroneous redirect, and it would have been intellectually dishonest to delete it). And Old Saxon Genesis. Quite apart from things like my first major article here, Heathen hofs, which an encyclopaedia needs but there are not many who can write up. For us not already to have had those others is really pretty sad. And yes, the existence of such embarrassing gaps by no means means we don't also need expansion and improvement of existing articles. I have a guilt-inducingly long personal list of those that I need to get to, too. But the redlinks in almost everything I write! Argh! I cannot really understand how others can fail to see all those redlinks. They must only be looking at articles on TV shows and pop stars ... but every season brings new pop stars, new hit songs, new TV programmes, new winners in everything from literary awards to the Nobels - not to mention the new theories that come out every five years or so in science, education, politics ... so even so, I just don't really understand how anyone can think that. So I guess I'd better get back to my sacrificial bog with dismembered human sacrifices and the first European record of house cats like a good little ivory-tower academic. Yngvadottir (talk) 16:47, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Cross burnings
Ah yes, the good old days: it's been over twenty years now--so those days are not that old (paragraph starting with "Each new story of cross burnings", though there weren't that many stories). Our article on The Machine doesn't include that cross burning and really needs a good scrubbing. FWIW, I was elected into the SGA the year it was allowed back, and nothing had changed. Those white good old boys and their perfectly manicured girlfriends still ran the show. Oh, someone needs to write Bryan Taylor (politician), haha. (That's funny to me cause I was there when he ran for SGA president, as a Greek boy against the Machine. And now you couldn't tell him apart from his former opponents.) Drmies (talk) 23:56, 16 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Be careful you don't blow your cover. ;-) That US frat thing just seems totally bizarre to me. Eric   Corbett  00:01, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There's money in it. It's the way in which the Old South (well, they have the same system up North and wherever else there's power and privilege) keeps its money and its genes contained within certain sections of the population. Place I teach at, the students are just too mature and, in many cases, too poor to be involved with that nonsense, and the Greek system we have on campus is nothing to speak of. Also, there's a pretty direct line from the Alabama campus/SGA to Montgomery (the state capitol), and that's how they keep running things. Ah well. I should do something with Beowulf, but all my books are at the office. Drmies (talk) 00:29, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * (Northerner weighs in) It's bizarre to a lot of us who wanted no part of it, either. As far as I can tell, the "Greek system" also serves a primary purpose to consume large quantities of alcohol (particularly cheap beer and oversweetened "cheerleader beer" drinks that girls like...) and  I guess that means that it's to basically make sure that if the sorority girls party, it's with fraternity boys whose genes their parents could live with in offspring should accidents happen. :-P    Montanabw (talk) 05:41, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

HMS Warrior FAC
I appreciate your work on the article, but I just saw a delegate's comment that he didn't see a clear consensus to promote, so I'm hoping that you might be willing to formally support, if only on the prose, so we can put this puppy to bed after all this work. If not, then I'd hope that you could identify any remaining issues that should be addressed.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:23, 17 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll try and look properly at the article tomorrow. Eric   Corbett  02:15, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Borley Church
Thanks for your help. It's not the first time I pull a red link out of one of your articles. Ha, it's the first day of school for the kids, and I am pooped! Drmies (talk) 00:54, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I find cats and ferrets enough work. The Coral Island is still gnawing away at me, but I'm going to be away again in a couple of weeks time, which is why I haven't rushed it. Eric   Corbett  00:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * My gosh. I've only just noticed that Borley Church has appeared in the DYK slot today. At least it's got an interesting hook for once. Eric   Corbett  01:04, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah well, it's all in a day's work. :) I just wrote up a set of articles on a bunch of Dutch TV stuff of Monty-Python level silliness, and am grinning with every reference I look at. And I can't translate a single one of the jokes! Who cares that it's "Wilhelmina Kuttje" with two t's? Ask a Dutchman and they're in stitches! Or the title of Jacques Plafond's show Plafond over de vloer--it's idiomatic and totally stupid. Over the vloer--get it? (no!) Drmies (talk) 01:37, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * You're quite right, I don't get it all. But perhaps you may be able to help with an article I failed at GAN earlier today? It's Netherlandish Proverbs. The nominator is unhappy with my decision not to list the article, and I'd be interested to see what you think. Eric   Corbett  01:50, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, well, I can guess why you failed it, after reading the first half dozen paragraphs. I'll have a look at the review. Marvelous painting--had no idea it existed. Drmies (talk) 02:27, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The Dutch article points to "adage" as well as a possible translation. I suppose "spreekwoord" is as narrow in terms of grammar as "proverb", but "gezegde" (adage) might be broader--and "idiom" is a possibility as well; could easily be done with some explanation in the text. I agree with your assessment, though you point at things (correctly) I hadn't even thought of. I'd have failed simply on quality of writing (below par) and the fact that it's just a list, mostly. Drmies (talk) 02:35, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I made a few tweaks to the article, but yeah, that's a problem. If the article had ten times the content it wouldn't be so unbalanced, and if it is to be a list some of the newly added content needs to be scrapped as irrelevant. Hey, I'm thinking about putting Jacob de Wilde and Maria de Wilde up for GA--do you think they're anywhere near ready? Drmies (talk) 03:02, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Well done Dr! Lead needs expansion on those Wilde articles.♦ Dr. Blofeld  09:47, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The church had over 6000 visitors today. Drmies (talk) 02:09, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

FA
Hi, you might have seen the image discussion/!vote at Talk:Paris. I would be interested to know your opinion regarding which would be better at FAC. Thanks, Gilderien Chat&#124;List of good deeds 02:29, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Barton Aqueduct
Hello, I just wanted to introduce myself and let you know I am glad to be reviewing the article Barton Aqueduct you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by GA bot, on behalf of Dr. Blofeld -- 12:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

The "I just wanted to introduce myself" part is really irritating. ...♦ Dr. Blofeld  13:21, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * It is. I wonder whose brilliant idea that was? Eric   Corbett  13:27, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Goodness knows. I've reworded Template:GANotice (last section) but it could probably be improved further by a decent copy-editor... BencherliteTalk 13:33, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Chris G seems to own the GA bot. I'll ask him to reword the message, I'm sure most find it patronizing and annoying.♦ Dr. Blofeld  13:35, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * it's not a bot-only message - anyone can use and edit {[tl|GANotice}}, as I have just done. BencherliteTalk 13:38, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I see, I've reworded. Still not perfect, but better.♦ Dr. Blofeld  13:39, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Borley Rectory
The article Borley Rectory you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Borley Rectory for comments about the article. Well done! Message delivered by GA bot, on behalf of Pyrotec -- 15:47, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I enjoyed reviwing it and it brought back memories. I attended a series of evening lectures on this topic / theame given by the late Prof Archie Roy, some twenty to twenty five years ago (I've got a signed copy of A Sense of Something Stange, so that would tie it down to 1990 or 1991). Pyrotec (talk) 15:47, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Malkin Tower
Hi Eric, it's been a while. I've seen all the drama that's been going on here so I'm not sure if you're up for much writing at the moment, but last summer when we worked together (along with User:Trappedinburnley of course) we always said that we'd try and get the Malkin Tower article up to FA standard. Would you still be interested? To be honest, if we do this it will probably be the last thing I ever work on here, I'm bored of this place nowadays. But anyway I have a few spare weeks at the moment so it would be good to get something useful (if you can call writing Wikipedia articles useful any longer) done. What do you think? BigDom (talk) 21:53, 28 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure there's much else we could do to it, it's about as good it could get I think. We're out of sources until someone comes up with a credible site revealing convincing archaeological evidence, so I'm inclined to believe that GA might be, at least for the time being, the end of the line for Malkin Tower. But if you and or Trappedinburnley want to take a shot at FAC I'll certainly help. Eric   Corbett  22:12, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Upon reflection I've changed my mind, as I've explained on your talk page. Eric   Corbett  16:56, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry I didn't get back to you last night. Glad to hear you think that it might have a chance. Like you say, there are shorter FAs and it's the most comprehensive account of Malkin Tower in existence; it certainly covers most if not all of the available material. It's likely I'll be going to the library some time this week so I can have a look if they've got any new books in or if I missed anything last time and then we can get started from there. I'll leave Trappedinburnley a message to see if he's interested and get him to post here if he is. As for the swansong, we'll see. Maybe this will be the tonic I need to reinvigorate myself. Cheers, BigDom (talk) 17:10, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll have another look around as well, and when we're satisfied there's nothing more to be found we'll have a go. Eric   Corbett  17:29, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * If possible I'll go into Nelson library and have a look there; they might have more on the witches with it actually being in Pendle. BigDom (talk) 19:28, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi chaps, thanks for thinking of me. I'm not particularly active here at the moment, I've been busy with other stuff. But I've still been doing a bit here and there. I'll happily contribute if I can be of use. I've never been involved with FAC before, so on that front I expect to not be vastly useful. But on the content front one area that I've always wanted to expand on is the Mawkin Yard location possibility. The present Malkin Tower Farm seems to be in about the right place to be the same site. As I mentioned previously it seems to have had its name changed from Blacko Tower sometime between the surveys for the 1848 OS 1:10,560 and 1893 1:2500 County Series maps. A little way down the road is the Cross Gaits Inn. I’ve seen a photo of the old sign there. It shows a fairly classic witch blocking the road in front of a man on horseback. The road appears to be an impression of the junction where the pub stands today but prior to its construction. I say impression because there was probably a building there in the 1610s. And the tower in the background? Well that looks amazingly similar to the view for that location of the 1890ish Stansfield tower. Stansfield was ostensibly built to provide its owner with a view over the hills into the Ribble Valley. It is considerably sort of achieving that aim, it seems to be much more useful as an attempt to claim the legend. Just need sources...maybe these guys can help us?? --Trappedinburnley (talk) 22:08, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I've been watching the FAC progess, so far as I can tell it seems to be going OK. As very much the junior partner at this stage, I did't want show any discord on the comments page, but I do think that the sheep thing is worth adding. I could easily knock something up merging Potts "Device stole a Wether from John Robinson of Barley" and Halsted's (and probably others) suggestion that he was a neighbour. However it just occurs to me that James didn't live at the tower, so maybe not. --Trappedinburnley (talk) 17:33, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Quite. Only Demdike and Alizon lived at Malkin Tower, so I fail to see the relevance of John's theft of a sheep. Eric   Corbett  18:56, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

It might be just me, but I can't work out what Quadell's angling for. It's not meant to be an article about the role of Malkin Tower in the witch trials. BigDom (talk) 18:42, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * There's already a rather good article on the witch trials for anyone who's interested. People get bees in their bonnets, but I'd rather see the FAC fail than pad it out with irrelevant stuff about sheep stealing or exactly who was present at Nowell's examination of Demdike and Alizon, or the value of goods stolen in a reported break-in. The only relevance the break-in has is that Alizon mentioned a fire house in her statement, nothing more. Eric   Corbett  18:56, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose the current arrangement is a good compromise, even if the footnote seems a little pointless to me. BigDom (talk) 21:44, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems pointless to me as well, but sometimes it's politic to bend a little. What I will not compromise on though is padding out the article with irrelevant details just to bulk it up. Eric   Corbett  22:01, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks
Just wanted to drop a note saying that I appreciate your comments and replies to questions at the Teahouse lately, particularly here on the role of gender. <font color="green" face="Candara">I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 15:54, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks. WP is a strange place. One month I'm blocked and accused of driving editors away, the next I'm thanked for my contributions to helping new editors. What's doubly curious is that I only looked at the Teahouse because I was being bad-mouthed there. Either I'm Jekyll and Hyde or there's something seriously wrong here. Eric   Corbett  15:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Or both... --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:14, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but I think The Hulk would be a better analogy than Jekyll and Hyde. Eric   Corbett  16:26, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Is that why your signature is green? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:29, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Possibly. Eric   Corbett  16:31, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * My over-simplified analysis: when you see that an editor is clueless, but new, you recognize this and help. When you see a similar edit by an editor who has thousands, or maybe even tens of thousands of edits, so ought to have picked up a clue by now, you are less willing to tolerate it, and sometimes express your views with colorful language.-- SPhilbrick (Talk)  18:02, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That's about right I think. Eric   Corbett  18:14, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * You also don't like bullies, which is admirable. Even if you occasionally look before you leap. ;-)  And speaking of leaping, how's the kitten?  Speaking of kittens, Kitten's Joy sired three winners at Arlington last weekend, including the official winner of the [{Arlington Million]].  Never mind, I'm just rambling here ...  Montanabw (talk) 00:18, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The kitten is a bundle of energy. She's just woken me up playing with my hair. Eric   Corbett  03:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Barton Aqueduct
The article Barton Aqueduct you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Barton Aqueduct for comments about the article. Well done! Message delivered by GA bot, on behalf of Dr. Blofeld -- 10:38, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

SFNP
I just saw your article on this and made a minor edit. I also noticed you used sfnp, which I didn't know about, even though I usually use sfn. I am going to start using sfnp as I like that even better and will now go convert the Sherwood article to sfnp. Pumpkin Sky  talk  01:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I favour sfnp because it make for a more consistent look with the source formatting. Eric   Corbett  03:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Ned Painter
As this is evolving into a personal discussion, I though I would drop you a line on your talk page. Thanks for your kind assessment of my reading abilities. If the lead is not referring to the baptism of Mary Painter, then why were you so upset at my initial edit "He was baptised at St Mary's Church Stretford on 15 February 1784" (unless, of course, there is a record of the parents attending a baptism of their unidentified child)? But I can see we are going round in circles here. I don't normally run into such difficulties with other editors - in fact I think this is the first time in years and years of editing that my edits have been reverted twice without adequate explanation. Although I do not usually edit biographies of 19th-century boxers, when I come across something strange in the lead to a recent article, I often try to improve it. Pity we can't cooperate on this one. I see you have only recently started to write articles under your new user name but I have for years appreciated all the great work you have undertaken as Malleus Fatuorum. I know you have a special interest in Manchester and surroundings, a city with which I have both family and professional connections myself. Perhaps we'll meet again on a more positive path in the future.--Ipigott (talk) 07:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I've just taken a look at this and at the cited source ... and I for one have dealt with 19C pugilists previously, eg: Isaac Perrins. Eric seems to be correct here: the source makes no definite statement and indeed is explicitly uncertain. - Sitush (talk) 07:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

March 1974? ♦ Dr. Blofeld  07:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Glad to see everything has now been sorted out. The latest version of the lead certainly conveys the element of doubt. If I had had access to the latest version of the ODNB, I would probably have appreciated the problem. The 1900 edition only served to add confusion. --Ipigott (talk) 08:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * If you're in the UK you can quite probably get access to the online edition of the ODNB through your local library. Eric   Corbett  10:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know. Unfortunately I am not resident in the UK and therefore have no access to sources available through the public libraries. I spend most of my time in Luxembourg and Denmark where I am now. The local library here does not have a very good reference section and it usually takes about three or four days to get books delivered via ILL. If I had been able to consult the latest edition of the ODNB, I would no doubt have realized why you worded the lead as you did. I'm glad Sitush came along with a clarification. I apologize for adding to your "travails" but I certainly had no intention of causing an argument: I was only trying to understand what the lead actually meant. I also realize why you wanted to cover Ned Painter in the first place now that I note the special interest you have shown in the Stretford area since early 2007 as well as your recent work on another bare-knuckle boxer, Tom Spring, one of Painter's opponents. I see, though, that Painter is not included under the notable people in the Stretford article itself, only via the category. If ever you should feel like further enhancing the coverage of bare-knuckle fighting, there is an interesting background article here with quite a few boxers from the Manchester area. Keep up the good work.--Ipigott (talk) 09:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That's an interesting link, thanks. Eric   Corbett  10:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Mew!
Sorry if my messy indentation caused a bit of an identity mix-up at the Teahouse! Here's a kitten to make up for it :P

LukeSurlt c 21:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC) <br style="clear: both;"/>


 * Just thought we ought to get that straight, as some are all to eager to accuse me of anything. Eric   Corbett  21:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually, that kitten looks remarkably like my own kitten, who's climbing up my leg and wanting to play fight even as we speak. Eric   Corbett  21:24, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Love kittens. They don't make accusations. ;-)--<font face="Mistral" size="3;" style="text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #999;"> Mark 21:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

from formerly Ling.Nut, question for British English speakers

 * Hey. First of all, I was quite surprised to see that Malleus is now Eric. I dunno if that's a sign of mellowing, or a form of protest... but... I'm sorry to intrude. It's not even vaguely on any topic related to Wikipedia, and I don't even edit any more.. but.. may I be so bold (and off-topic).. if any speakers of British English would be willing to answer one question about prosody in spoken usage... if you would be so kind as to email me, I would be grateful... tks. Sorry to intrude, again. &bull; Serviceable&dagger;Villain 12:00, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Spam--but not my spam
Hi Eric, and maybe, , and others, I received a link through email with some sales for books, from Oxbow Books (aka David Brown Book Company), with lots of historical, classical, and medieval stuff on it. There's some ridiculous sales there. If it's too spammy for you, Eric, just hit rollback. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 16:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Gods, no. No Chaucer or Piers. (shudders). I was a Anglo-Norman HISTORY major, not a Middle English major. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:00, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Lead us not into temptation, Drmies! I've seen these before, & this time these are 3331 bargain titles. Archaeology and the M3 [Paperback], P J Fasham (Author); R J B Whinney (Author), Regular Price: £25.00, Special Price: £2.95 - fortunately I have just no room. Did people see The Early Anglo-Saxons on Wikipedia: an Assessment btw. Deserves a response. Johnbod (talk) 17:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Interesting article - but waaaay outside my normal topic area - once long long ago I briefly thought of pursuing biblical archaeology, but got distracted by other subjects. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
 * A rather well balanced blog, I thought. Would be great to have more of that sort of person as an editor here. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:28, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. Archeology is out of my league. If it were of professional interest and benefits for academics to contribute here we could quickly be in much better shape, but it's hardly encouraged since contributing to Wikipedia does not ordinarily count as professional work; I speak from experience. Drmies (talk) 18:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I wonder if you've seen this? J Milburn (talk) 00:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Things chance, JMilburn, and don't you know better than to take Wikipedia for a source? Let's just say that there was spin on all sides. Drmies (talk) 02:49, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Do you have any spare change?
The keyboard on the laptop I usually use to edit here has suddenly refused to accept one of the cursor keys. I understand that WP has in the past offered help with hardware. Any chance I could have a top of the range laptop to allow me to continue contributing here? Eric  Corbett  20:39, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure....but then you have to fix the r that never seems to appear when I type "your".--<font face="Mistral" size="3;" style="text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #999;"> Mark 21:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Blame the kitten...?  Montanabw (talk) 19:20, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I've already given her a severe telling off, and forbidden her to even to put one foot on the alphabetic keys. I think she got my drift. Eric   Corbett  19:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * She s cat, you think that is going to work? Foolish fellow! :-D  Montanabw (talk) 21:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
 * She's certainly very determined, but one of us is going to have to break soon. I'm amazed by how much she's grown in the four or five weeks we've had her; she'll soon be big enough to square up to the ferrets. And believe me, they take a lot of squaring up to, even if you're a human. Eric   Corbett  01:29, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

need a translation for "televisiemaker"
Eric, et al., I need a word. "Television maker"? Someone who writes, directs, produces, acts in--all of those. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 02:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Generally interpreted as producer. Dutch online monolingual dicos may  provide additional  definitions. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "programme-maker" ? (Oh, alright, "program-maker"). Probably with "television" first. Other examples: "Sir David Frederick Attenborough /ˈætənbərə/, OM CH CVO CBE FRS FZS FSA (born 8 May 1926)[1] is an English broadcaster and naturalist. His career as the face and voice of natural history programmes has endured for 60 years. He is best known for writing and presenting the nine Life series,...".  Louis Sebastian Theroux (/θəˈruː/ LOO-ee thə-ROO)[2] (born May 20, 1970) is an English journalist and broadcaster. He is best known for his documentaries in the television series Louis Theroux's Weird Weekends and ....". But I think "broadcaster" is a bit limp.  Johnbod (talk) 16:20, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I went back to "television writer and director"--also limpish. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 20:32, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd be inclined to go for something like "creator of television programmes". Eric   Corbett  23:25, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Keith Moon
I've put this up for a pre-FAC peer review here, mainly because there are still a few sources I deliberately tagged, and somebody could do with giving it a serious copyedit, as I could chip away at it for years at my glacial pace. Since I'm relatively inexperienced in the FA world, I thought I might as well do things "by the book" first. Ritchie333 <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   16:12, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


 * If you succeed in enticing Brianboulton to cast an eye over it then the exercise will have been worthwhile. Eric   Corbett  01:56, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Ping on former article
If the illustrious Mr. Corbett has a moment, I added a section at Oxbow (horse) and tweaked the lede to match. as you know, it's already FA thanks in large part to your previous copyedits, just want to be sure the new material conforms to the standard. Horse pulled up lame in his last race and is out for the season, so not likely to add any more to this until 2014. Thanks. Montanabw (talk) 19:39, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll try and take a look at that tomorrow. If I may ask you a personal question, do you really live in Montana? Eric   Corbett  23:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * and are you a dental floss tycoon? Incidentally, I've heard great things about that state, and they involve mountains and horses. Drmies (talk)

Yes, I live in Montana. But no, I can only wish I was a dental floss tycoon! We refer to the wages here as the "scenery tax." Ask User:Mike Cline, who made his fortune elsewhere... LOL Montanabw (talk) 23:29, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


 * What little I know of Montana comes from cowboy movies, but it looks to be a beautiful place. Eric   Corbett  23:34, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The Horse Whisperer (film) and A River Runs Through It (film) were both shot in a radius of about 100 miles of where I grew up; I think I mentioned somewhere here that my parents' old barn (now torn down) outside Bozeman, Montana (where only people with Mike's resources can afford to live these days, it's getting to be a lot like Jackson Hole) was actually scouted as a location for the Horse Whisperer (but, obviously, was not selected). However, only in the movies would someone haul a horse in a trailer from the east coast to Montana via what looks like the Beartooth Highway when Interstate 90 will take you straight in... movie errors, sheesh!  Montanabw (talk) 23:41, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Mike Cline made his fortune right here in Montgomery, and he spends it in Montana, fly fishing. And some of it he spent in a very expensive sushi restaurant in DC, at Wikimania last year; he was kind enough let me share that bounty. You know my uncle from Mississippi drove his horses in a trailer up to Montana for a vacation? Drmies (talk) 00:13, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I hate Japanese food in general even more than I do German food, except for teriyaki of course. And as for that disgusting saki, least said soonest mended. Did the horse enjoy its vacation?


 * I'm reminded though of a recent exchange in an episode of Count Arthur Strong. He walks into his local cafe and is offered the new menu item, croque-monsieur: "No, I can't be doing with that foreign muck, I'll have a toasted ham and cheese sandwich." Eric   Corbett  01:12, 29 August 2013 (UTC)


 * It reminds me of that exchange in Life on Mars : "What's a vol-au-vent?" "It's puff pastry shell filled with a savoury meat mixture." "So its a pie then." Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   15:02, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, that's sad, to hate Japanese food. I didn't ask the horse, though I'm sure anytime it's not being sat upon by 300 pounds of Uncle Chip it's pretty happy. Chip's a big man--his palm can basically hide a 9mm, though the Colt 45 he favors sticks out just a bit. Drmies (talk) 18:21, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Million Award
The Million Award is a new initiative to recognize the editors of Wikipedia's most-read content; you can read more about the award and its possible tiers (Quarter Million Award, Half Million Award, and Million Award) at Million Award. You're also welcome to display this userbox:

If I've made any error in this listing, please don't hesitate to correct it; if for any reason you don't feel you deserve it, please don't hesitate to remove it; if you know of any other editor who merits one of these awards, please don't hesitate to give it; if you yourself deserve another award from any of the three tiers, please don't hesitate to take it! Cheers, -- Khazar2 (talk) 22:59, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't feel I deserve that as it happens, the credit should go to Ealdgyth. Eric   Corbett  23:05, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay--I'll remove you from the listing for this one. Thanks all the same for your work on it, though-- Khazar2 (talk) 23:40, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * All the credit does NOT go to Ealdgyth - quit being modest. That was an insane amount of copyediting and figuring out bad prose. You deserve it. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:40, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. But until I get paid royalties on page views it doesn't seem very important to me. I couldn't have written that article, but you not only could, you did. 01:39, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Collaboration is what I like here. I could not have written Kafka, I would not even had the idea to touch it without PumpkinSky. Of course I don't deserve "all" of the award that I now proudly present on my talk, next to a city in England - sorry it's not Manchester ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:15, 31 August 2013 (UTC)