User talk:EspyHop

May 2018
Please do not add or change content, as you did at Fleetwood Mac, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. - FlightTime  ( open channel ) 19:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Campbell_(musician)

Michael Wayne Campbell (born February 1, 1950) is an American guitarist, songwriter, and record producer. Campbell was formerly a member of Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers and co-wrote many of the band's hits with Petty, including "Refugee", "Here Comes My Girl", "You Got Lucky", and "Runnin' Down a Dream". His work outside the group includes composing and playing on the Don Henley hit "The Boys of Summer". On April 9, 2018, Fleetwood Mac announced that Campbell would be joining the band along with Neil Finn to replace lead guitarist Lindsey Buckingham.

- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Finn

Neil Mullane Finn OBE (born 27 May 1958) is a New Zealand singer/songwriter and musician. With his brother Tim Finn, he was the co-frontman for Split Enz, a project that he joined after it was initially founded by Tim and others, and is now frontman for Crowded House.

- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Mason

David Thomas "Dave" Mason (born 10 May 1946) is an English singer-songwriter and guitarist from Worcester, who first found fame with the rock band Traffic.[3]

Easily verified information
Fleetwood Mac features New Zealander Neil Finn, which is easily verified by looking at his Wikipedia entry. Neil was in Split Enz, Crowded House, and the Finn Brothers, which is also easily verified on his Wikipedia page.

The other new member is Mike Campbell, formerly of Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. Also, given Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham have recorded with that band, they were already related. Again, easily verified.

As for adding Traffic to related artists, Dave Mason was in Traffic. If Savoy Brown is related, so is Traffic. EspyHop (talk) 19:34, 22 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The guideline at Template:Infobox musical artist sets a higher bar than just one band member in another band. Binksternet (talk) 19:49, 22 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Indeed, and Savoy Brown are included because more than one member of Fleetwood Mac was also in Savoy Brown.
 * How many other members of Fleetwood Mac were in Chicken Shack?

Nicks and Buckingham were not in the Heartbreakers, and merely having recorded with them is insufficient. With regard to the nationality of the band, it does not reflect the nationality of its members, obviously, but the formation of the band itself. Formed in the UK, and effectively/arguably reformed in the US. Not New Zealand. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:07, 22 May 2018 (UTC)


 * No, only Dave Walker was from Savoy Brown. No other member came from that band. As for the other rules about the band’s nationality, where was that written?


 * Bob Brunning. And well, it's pretty obvious, I'd have thought, and it's used across all the band articles I watch. Where is your theory written? Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:27, 22 May 2018 (UTC)


 * In that case, shouldn’t Delaney & Bonnie be added, since Dave Mason and Rick Vito played with them, they appeared on a Zoo album that featured Mick Fleetwood and Bekka Bramlett, and they are the parents of Bekka, not to mention Delaney wrote songs with Billy Burnette? Seems more relevant than a band that had a guy who was in the band six weeks and another six months.   As for my theory on nationality, Fleetwood Mac was referred to as an British-American band when Bob Welch joined.


 * No, because neither Delaney nor Bonnie ever joined FM, and no member of FM ever joined D&B and Friends. That's how it works. If we're going to include all the bands that a member of FM played with, any musicians who played on a FM album, or anyone a member of FM is related to, then that's going to be a ridiculously long list. Whatever seems more relevant to you, there are rules and guidelines which take precedence, and they've been linked here. If you have a contemporary source for your last comment, then please provide it. If you are referring to the album articles, they cannot be used a source, obviously. I'd say the Future Games article (etc) shouldn't say what it says. To my mind, in the real world bands don't have nationalities. On here, people like to ascribe a nationality to a band for reasons best known to themselves. I've explained the way it's generally done, and consensus usually carries the day. If you can find a source that says FM are, even in part, a "New Zealand band", then please add it. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:53, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * ”and no member of FM ever joined D&B and Friends. That's how it works.” But Dave Mason and Rick Vito joined Delaney & Bonnie, and last I checked, they were members of Fleetwood Mac.  It sounds like you’re making the rules up as you go.  Like, you are finding ways to pick apart anything that came after 1987.

“If you are referring to the album articles, they cannot be used a source, obviously.” Why is that obvious? “I'd say the Future Games article (etc) shouldn't say what it says. To my mind, in the real world bands don't have nationalities.” And, yet there it is. You talk about precedent, yet dismiss that based solely on your personal opinion. “If you can find a source that says FM are, even in part, a "New Zealand band", then please add it.“ I was using precedent that’s existed in music press that predates Wikipedia. Fleetwood Mac now has a New Zealander in its ranks, so it can legitimately be considered a British-American-New Zealander band.
 * Mason I'll accept, having looked at it, although it's a little tenuous because D&B are a duo. That would have to be decided by consensus on the talk page, I suspect. When did Vito join D&B? I'm not talking about playing on an album as a guest or a friend or playing on a tour as a guest, I am talking about actually joining that band as a member.
 * https://stevie-nicks.info/2013/10/rockin-with-rick-vito-former-fleetwood-mac-guitarist-returns-to-alma-mater-kutztown-university/


 * “And, in fact, a group that I was very fond of – Delaney Bonney and Friends – used to play in the area, and I used to go to see them and introduced myself to them and gave them some things that I had recorded and they invited me at one point to sit in with them live at Lehigh University.


 * “And I guess that made a good impression – it was a good night; got a great response. And so they invited me, when I finished school, to move out to L.A., which is what I did. And they hired me.”


 * The very clear rules have been provided for you by another editor; if you choose to ignore them, that's your issue. I don't know why you are suggesting I have an issue with "anything that came after 1987". You're presupposing a lot there. If you're interested, I don't really bother with much after about 1974.
 * It is obvious because Wikipedia articles cannot be used as sources in other Wikipedia articles. Does this need explaining? Apparently. WP:CIRC.
 * Yes, yet there it is. I was voicing my opinion. I do not control Wikipedia. That article says what it says because consensus has apparently accepted it. I might change it. Someone might change it back. That's how it goes.
 * You do not understand how Wikipedia works. Read some guidelines, starting with WP:RS and WP:V. If these are not followed, then your edits will no doubt be reverted as they have been so far. "Precedent that's existed in music press that predates Wikipedia" is utterly meaningless on here. You need an actual independent reliable source that says FM are a New Zealander band, in part or otherwise. I see that you were happy to dismiss Walker and Brunning as short-term members, although Finn's only been in the band for a few weeks of its 51 year history, has done precisely nothing so far, and yet suddenly FM are, in part, a "New Zealander band". In my opinion, nobody is going to take that seriously. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:33, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Finn has already been an official member the band longer than Brunning was. Using Brunning as a justification to list Savoy Brown is a stretch. He was in the band for six weeks with the understanding that he was out as soon as John McVie agreed to join.  At most, he was a temp, and he said as much.  Stevie Nicks recorded more songs and performed more shows with Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers (which, remember, had a future member of Fleetwood Mac) than Brunning did with Fleetwood Mac, yet somehow that band isn’t an associated act?  Crazy.
 * You're not getting it. Nicks isn't Fleetwood Mac. SN doing whatever with TP is nothing to do with FM's associated acts. SN and TP are associated acts, but on the FM page, what's required are acts that at some point featured two or more members of FM as members of those bands, or artists with whom FM worked as a whole on a regular basis, or for a reasonable length of time. Your beef is with the rules, and as such there's little point in arguing about it here. Can you actually imagine how many acts would be included under your criteria? Dozens. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:39, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * None of the media are calling the band UK/US/NZ. I'm not in charge of the media, but as a veteran observer, I would guess that they never will. The small NZ element is not moving the center of gravity that way. Binksternet (talk) 22:24, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with your rational. -  FlightTime  ( open channel ) 22:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

May 2018
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war&#32; according to the reverts you have made on Fleetwood Mac. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement. Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states: If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Binksternet (talk) 19:47, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
 * 2) Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.