User talk:Eupator/Archive 2

view of Ararat
How does it look out of the window? Must suck not being able to set foot, eh? Lutherian 17:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * yeah, lets leave it, like that there is proof that I said it, LOL Lutherian 17:44, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Feeding of trolls
Don't feed the troll. How will that look on his WP:RFAR ? Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:28, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Civility
Regarding edits such as this: Please do not make personal attacks on other people. Wikipedia has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by admins or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please resolve disputes appropriately. Thank you. --InShaneee 18:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter. Making derogatory statements towords ANYONE is not allowed. You've also been attacking users in other comments, so please try to be more respectful. --InShaneee 20:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * This is your last warning. Do not call other users trolls, or you will be blocked. --InShaneee 20:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Do not call ANY other user a troll, and do not accuse other users of trolling. --InShaneee 20:34, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That doesn't mean you can just throw the term around in a debate. --InShaneee 20:56, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Quite simple actually. Don't use it, period. --InShaneee 22:45, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The fact is that it's too easy for the word to be used as an insult in discussions, and too often is, as you have. So, to be safe, just don't use it. --InShaneee 22:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That's not my POV, that's the way things are, so know that if you continue to disrespect other users, you will be blocked. --InShaneee 23:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Again, call it what you like, but the rules are here. If you want another example of your incivility, look here. --InShaneee 23:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Regarding this edit: [[Image:Octagon-warning.png|left|30px]]You have been temporarily blocked from editing for disrupting Wikipedia by making personal attacks. If you wish to make useful contributions, you are welcome to come back after the block expires. --InShaneee 23:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

unblock request

 * Wikipedia has standards for civility, no personal attacks etc. The block looks fine to me. --pgk( talk ) 07:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Admin InShaneee
Hi, I was hoping you could voice your views on the conduct of InShaneee here: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Inappropirate conduct by admin InShaneee. Basically, I am making the case that InShaneee hands out unfair warnings, refuses to discuss them and holds double standards. Paul Cyr 21:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * As I told Paul: a RfC against Shaneee would be in order. --Candide, or Optimism 23:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Survey on the use of Latinized/Greek names for Byzantine rulers
Hi. There is a survey on the names of Byzantine rulers at Talk:Constantine XI. Maybe you are interested in.--Panairjdde 17:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Image:SoghomonTehlirian.JPG
Hi! I'd like to move this image to commons to make it available for use in other wikipedias, as well. Could you please specify, why this image is supposed to be in the public domain? Thank you. --Matt314 15:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

FYI...
Articles for deletion/Turkish Massacres. &mdash; Khoikhoi 16:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * BTW, watch out for the 3RR at Kanayan & Armenian Legion. &mdash; Khoikhoi 17:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Isn't it copyrighted then? Regardless, just don't get sucked into his trap. And who's Effendi Mehmet Oglu? 18:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, then I'll just drop on his talk page. Cheers. &mdash; Khoikhoi 18:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Survey on the use of Latinized/Greek names for Byzantine rulers Follow Up
Greetings. As a recent contributor to the survey on the names of Byzantine rulers at Talk:Constantine XI, you may be interested in the following. A mediation sought by Panairjdde resulted in the recommendation that "that proposal two from this page be implemented in the short term, until a consensus can be reached about proposal three". Accordingly, before resuming the editorial process, I am seeking feedback on whether option 2 or 3 of the former survey is more acceptable. Please state (or re-state) your opinion in the follow up survey on Talk:Constantine XI. Thank you for your time, Imladjov 14:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Macedonia
Hi, do you know the Armenian word for "Macedonia"? We need it for the language section of Macedonia (terminology), and I can't find it anywhere. Thanks in advance. --Telex 20:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. We'll be wanting "Makedonia" - I "tried" to fix it, could you tell me if it's OK. --Telex 21:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Titles
Eupator, here are a few links I’ve found

Marzpan/Marzban –
 * Vahan Kurkjian about marzpan government in Armenia


 * The article on Armeno-Iranian relations in the pre-Islamic period in Encyclopedia Iranica also contains some info about the Armenian marzpanate.


 * Britannica describes the historic developments during the marzpan rule, but doesn’t go in details about the title itself.


 * List of marzpans of Armenia

Contemporary accounts on the marzpans in Iberia are scarcer. The marzpan government existed in both Armenia and Iberia in parallel with local feudatories, but unlike in Armenia, the marzpans of Iberia were exclusively foreigners. The first known Sassanid marzpan of Iberia was the Armenian Vasak of Syunik (circa 439-442). Then there was a revival of Georgian royal authority though for a short time. In the 540s, we hear of Arvand Gushnasp and Vezhan Buzmir, perhaps the most powerful Persian marzpans of Iberia. The marzpan rule came to an end with the establishment of presiding principate in the 580s.

Ostikan –

This title seems to have been first conferred upon the Armenian princes who initially retained considerable autonomy under the Arab rule. These were Theodor (653-5), and his successor and son-in-law Hamazasp Mamikonian (655-8). Subsequently, ostikans were Arab governors who ruled over the province of Arminiya including Armenia, Iberia, and Albania. These ostikans (from the 690s to 790) are listed at. The emirs of Tiflis functioned under the ostikan’s authority, but later ruled independently.

Melik/Malik –

I could not find any valuable info on meliks in regards to Armenia and Georgia in the Arab period. As far as I know, Arabs (also Mongols) used this term to apply to non-Arab/non-Mongol rulers of the subject or neighboring peoples. For example, Marco Polo mentions the Georgian king David VII as melik: "In Zorzania (i.e., Georgia) the king is usually styled David Melik, which in our language signifies David the King". The 1854 English edition of his Travels comments on this: "The title of Melik shows that our author’s information derived from Arabs or Moghuls, who would naturally substitute it for the native title of Meppe".

Here’s also an excerpt about the melikdoms of Karabakh and Siunik in the early modern period. They: "enjoyed a new, all-purpose, title of melik, maintained castles, had about 1,000-2,000 infantry, had sovereign rights over their subjects, and collected taxes, transferring much of their income, as tribute, to their overlords. There were four melikdoms in Karabag (and a fifth established in the seventeenth century) and eight in Siwnik established in the middle of the fifteenth century by the Black Sheep (Kara Koyunlu) as buffer territories." Armenians, by Redgate. ISBN 0631220372, page 263.

In late medieval/early modern Georgia, the title of melik was usually granted to the governors of Lori ("Loris meliki", hence the noble surname Loris-Melikov). There’re also full-length articles on marzpan and melik in Encyclopedia of Islam, but unfortunately they are not available free online. --Kober 06:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Below are the Russian definitions for ostikan and marzpan. If you have any problems with translation, drop me a line and I’ll help. ОСТИКАН (из среднеперс.) – букв.: «верный», «доверенный», «лицо, близкое к царю». В этом смысле термин и применялся в др.-арм. литературе по отношению как к должностным лицам армянам, так и к представителям персидских царей и византийских императоров. Иов. Драсх. первым стал применять это слово именно к арабским правителям Арминии. В этом последнем значении термин остикан стал употреблять Чамчян М., позаимствовав идею у Иов. Драсх. И уже после него арменоведы, как отечественные так и европейские, стали применять термин остикан исключительно в отношении арабских правителей Арминии (Тер-Гевондян А. Замечания о слове «востикан», с. 247).

МАРЗПАН (из древнеперс.) – окраиноначальник, краеначальник, отсюда марзпанутюн-краеначальство. Этот термин отсутствует в первых надписях Сасанидских царей, так же, как и в титулатуре правителей, которая имеется в надписи Кааба-и-Зардушт. Впервые термин марзпан встречается при царе Бахраме V (420-438), когда был назначен марзпан в Армению. (См.: Ачарян Гр. Этимологический словарь.., т. III, с. 282-283; Christensen A. L'Iran sous les Sassanides, с. 137). Во время Иов. Драсх. термин марзпан потерял реальное значение и употреблялся, по-видимому, как почетный титул. Так, он называет марзпаном Гургена Арцруни – брата первого васпураканского царя Гагика Арцруни. 

Registered members
"If only registered editors were allowed to edit, the quality of Wikipedia articles would skyrocket to a much better level."

Exactly, I think not only will it improve wikipedia but it will let many wikipedians sleep better at night! --K a s h Talk 20:58, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Marzpan
Sure man, anything I can do. In between, the current History of Armenia article first of all needs a major expansion secondly it's quite short and a bit hostile towards Parthians and particulary Sassanids (There is no Armenia under Sassanids section. There were many important Armenians in Sassanid's court, namely Rostam Farrokhzād, Shirin, Sarkash, .........). Do you agree ? Ciao. Amir85 22:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
Hi Thanks for the award. BTW do you speak Russian? I have been arguing with some users in the Nizami from the republic of Azerbaijan and have consistently defended the Christianity and Armenianness of Shirin. This is because it is accurate from historical point of view, but these users have problems with it. --Ali doostzadeh 23:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Revert warring
Revert warring with another editor is not going to solve the content dispute. As a result, two pages have been locked for the moment, and I suggest you try to work it out at the talk page before asking to unprotect the pages. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 21:41, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Your analysis could be right, however, it is not going to resolve the issue in the long run, and when the page gets unprotected, it will start again. If there are sources that back him up, acknowledging that those sources exists ight be a better way to dealw ith it, and leave the answer in the middle. We are not here to resolve those issues. If there are better sources, that provide good counter arguments, other paths to resolution needs to be found, and maybe needs to result in more formal ways of dispute resolution. If that is needed, contact me, and we can see what is needed. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 23:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Tigran the II
HI I thought the following information from the Encyclopedia Britannica might be of use for the Armenian Tigranes II:

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9072452

Tigranes II The Great Encyclopædia Britannica Article born c. 140 died c. 55 BC

Tigranes also spelled Tigran, or Dikran   king of Armenia from 95 to 55 BC, under whom the country became for a short time the strongest state in the Roman East.

Tigranes was the son or brother of Artavasdes I and a member of the dynasty founded in the early 2nd century by Artaxias. He was given as a hostage to the Parthian king Mithradates II, but later he purchased his freedom by ceding 70 valleys bordering on Media, in northwestern Iran.

Thereafter, Tigranes began to enlarge his kingdom, first annexing the kingdom of Sophene (east of the upper Euphrates River). He also entered into alliance with Mithradates VI Eupator of Pontus, whose daughter Cleopatra he married. The interference of the two kings in Cappadocia (in eastern Asia Minor) was successfully countered by Roman intervention in 92 BC.

Tigranes then began war with the Parthians, whose empire (southeast of the Caspian Sea) was temporarily weakened after the death of Mithradates II (about 87) by internal dissensions and invasions of the Scythians. Tigranes reconquered the valleys he had ceded and laid waste a great part of Media; the kings of Atropatene (Azerbaijan), Gordyene and Adiabene (both on the Upper Tigris River), and Osroene became his vassals. He also annexed northern Mesopotamia, and in the Caucasus the kings of Iberia (now Georgia) and Albania accepted his suzerainty. In 83 the Syrians, tired of Seleucid dynastic struggles, offered him their crown, and in 78–77 he reoccupied Cappadocia. Tigranes took the title “king of kings” and built a new royal city, Tigranocerta, on the borders of Armenia and Mesopotamia (the actual site is disputed), where he accumulated all his wealth and to which he transplanted the inhabitants of 12 Greek towns of Cappadocia, Cilicia, and Syria.

In 72 the Romans forced Mithradates of Pontus to flee to Armenia, and, in 69, Roman armies under Lucullus invaded Armenia. Tigranes was defeated at Tigranocerta on Oct. 6, 69, and again near the former capital of Artaxata in September 68. The recall of Lucullus gave some respite to Mithradates and Tigranes, but in the meantime a son of Tigranes, also called Tigranes, rebelled against him. Although the younger Tigranes was given an army by the Parthian king Phraates III, he was defeated by his father and was forced to flee to the Roman general Pompey. When Pompey advanced into Armenia, Tigranes surrendered (66 BC). Pompey received him graciously and gave him back his kingdom (in exchange for Syria and other southern conquests). Tigranes ruled about 10 years longer over Armenia, as a Roman client-king, though he lost all his conquests except Sophene and Gordyene. He was succeeded by his son Artavasdes II

(So it seems he was not Parthian). --Ali doostzadeh 06:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Not true. Once again, nowhere does it say that he was ethnic Armenian -- whilst he indeed was king of Armenia, and indeed "king of kings" very briefly. I've provided all the variety of source -- it is well-established fact and it is solid, that Tigranes II Great, and his dynasty, were Parthian. Here's one English language source:


 * "On the other hand the Romans, with all the pride and haughtiness of conquerors, consider their instruments or allies alone as the legitimate kings, and they generally speak of the Arsacidae as a family imposed upon Armenia by the Parthians. As to the origin. of the Armenian Arsacidae, both the Romans and Armenians agree, that they were descended from the dynasty of the Parthian Arsacidae, an opinion which was so generally established, that Procopius (De Aedificiis Justi?iiam9 iii. 1) says, that nobody had the slightest doubt on the fact."


 * From: Smith, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, page 362, http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0371.html  --AdilBaguirov 17:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The Arsacids have nothing to do with Artaxiads. Tigranes was an Artaxiad. Artaxiad Dynasty VS Arshakuni Dynasty.--Eupator 17:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Read the page, it is definitely about Tigranes II Great, no way around it:

The following is a series of the Arsacidae and other kings of Armenia according to the Romans.

artaxias I., praefect of Armenia Magna under Antiochus the Great, became the independent king of Armenia in b. c. 188. [artaxias I.]

tigranes I., the ally of Mithridates the Great agciinst the Romans. [tigranes I.]

artavasdes I., the son of Tigranes I., taken prisoner by M. Antonius. [artavasdes I.]

artaxias II., the son of Artavasdes I., killed by his rebellious subjects. [artaxias II.]

tigranes II., the son of Artavasdes I., and the brother of Artaxias II., established in Armenia by order of Augustus, by Tiberius Nero. [ti­granes II.]

artavasdes II., perhaps the son of Artaxias II., driven out by his subjects. [artavasdes II.]

tigranes III., the son of Tigranes II.; the competitor of Artavasdes IL, driven out by Caius

ARSACIDAE.

http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0371.html  --AdilBaguirov 17:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It appears you can't read. Look where the "ARSACIDAE" start in that partial list, right after tigranes III. Vonones is the first Arsacid on the Armenian throne!--Eupator 17:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No, "ARSACIDAE" right after Tigranes III is just a header on the page, see it again carefully. And on the preceeding page, http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0370.html, it makes it clear that due to general confusion of people with names of those dynasties, and some conflicting info about who ruled when and who was legitimate ruler and who was not, they do the following (also note that they bring my point that "King of Armenia" is imprecise, and means Kings in Armenia:

"The expression "kings of Armenia" is in many instances vague, and leads to erroneous conclusions, especially with regard to the Arsacidae. The trans­actions of the Romans with Armenia will present much less difficulties if the student will remember that he has to do with kings in Armenia, and kings of Armenian origin reigning in countries beyond the limits of Armenia. The history of the Arsa­cidae cannot be well understood without a previous knowledge of the other dynasties before and after that of the Arsacidae; for Armenian kings were known to the Greeks long before the accession of the Arsacidae ; and the annals of the Eastern em­pire mention many important transactions with kings of Armenia, belonging to those dynasties, which reigned in this country during a period of almost a thousand years after the fall of the Arsa­cidae. But as any detailed account would be out of place here, we can give only a short sketch.

I. Dynasty of Hai'g, founded by Hai'g, the son of Gathlas, who is said to have lived b. c. 2107. Fifty-nine kings belong to this dynasty, and among them Zarmai'r, who, according to the Ar­menian historians, assisted the Trojans at the siege of their city, where he commanded a body of As­syrians ; Dikran or Tigranes, a prince mentioned by Xenophon (Cyrop. iii. 1, v. 1, 3, viii. 3, 4); and Wane, the last of his house, who fell in a battle with Alexander the Great in b. c. 328. The names of the fifty-nine kings, the duration of their reigns, and some other historical facts, mixed up with fabulous accounts, are given by the Ar­menian historians.

II. Seven Governors appointed by Alexander, and after his death by the Seleucidae, during the period from 328 to 149 b. c.

'''III. Dynasty of the Arsacidae, from b. c. 149 to a. d. 428. See below.'''

IV. Persian Governors, from a. d. 428 to 625.

V. Greek and Arabian governors, from A. d. 632 to 855.

VI. Dynasty of the Pagratidae, from 855 to 1079. The Pagratidae, a noble family of Jewish origin, settled in Armenia in b. c. 600, according to the Armenian historians."

--AdilBaguirov 17:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, there is no contradiction with what i'm saying.

Lets see if you can understand the following:


 * Moses of Khorene claims that Artaxiads were Arsacids. Moses of Khorene is the source that links Arsacids to Artaxiads, capiche?

The link you gave says so :

"the dynasty of the arsacidae. (See above, No. III.) It has already been said, that there are considerable discrepancies between the statements of the Romans and those of the Arme­nians concerning this dynasty. The Romans tell us that Artaxias, governor of Armenia Magna for Antiochus the Great, king of Syria, made himself independent in his government B. c. 188; and that Zadriates became king of Armenia Minor, of which country he was praefect. The descendents of Ar­taxias became extinct with Tigranes III., who was driven out by Caius Caesar; and among the kings who reigned after him, there are many who were not Arsacidae, but belonged to other Asiatic dynasties. The Armenians on the contrary say, that the dynasty of the Arsacidae was founded by Valarsaces or Wagharshag, the brother of Mithri-dates Arsaces [arsaces III.], king of Parthia, by whom he was established on the throne of Armenia in b. c. 149. A younger branch of the Arsacidae was founded by Arsham or Ardsham, son of Ardashes (Artaxes) and brother of the great Tigranes, who reigned at Edessa, and whose de­scendants became masters of Armenia Magna after the extinction of the Arsacidae in that country with the death of Tiridates I., who was establish­ed on the throne by Nero, and who died .most"

However, just like many other things Khorene said it is incorrect, not unlike the Jewish origin of Bagratids.


 * This has nothing to do with Tigranes.

At best we can mention that Moses of Khorene erroniously claimed that Arsacids had a connection with Artaxiads on the Artaxiad Dynasty page. Like it's done in the Bagrationi dynasty for example in regards to the Davidic line.--Eupator 18:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * And what exactly did you try to prove here? How does it contradict this very source confirming that Tigranes II Great was Parthian? It's in English, and should be easy to comprehend. --AdilBaguirov 18:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, I forgot to mention, but the articles about Armenia, as well as Azerbaijan and Georgia in Encyclopedia Britannica were co-authored by prof. Ronald Grigor Suny, an ethnic Armenian. His article on Armenia is twice longer than either Georgia or Azerbaijan, and he cites about a dozen Armenian books as references (e.g., on the Azerbaijan page, he cites only one Azerbaijani source about music). Same is true of Great Soviet Encyclopedia, where an Armenian was First Deputy Chief Editor, and considering that the Chief Editor was a Nobel-prize winning physicist academician Prokhorov, who was never there to edit much except on hard sciences, then he was the Chief Editor (there were also three Armenians on the Editorial Board, whilst in Britannica there is one Armenian who is member of Trustees). --AdilBaguirov 18:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Why werent there any ethnic Azeri Turkish scholars involved in the writing of thse highly respected encyclopedias? There weren't any or they just weren't invited? Please elaborate.--Eupator 18:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * And can you explain how would that relate to the discussion? I mean if someone cites Enc. Britannica about history of Armenia, it is fair game to also mention/remind that those articles were written by Armenians themselves, with yet even more references to themselves once again. So it's like a circle. Meanwhile, Azerbaijanis did write some articles in Great Soviet Encyclopedia, as did Armenians and Georgians and others, but what matters is who is the editor -- and he was Armenian. As of Britannica, not sure if there were any - but Azerbaijani community was not nearly as big as Armenian. Neither did Georgians write about themselves -- or are you gonna imply insults to them too? ;-) Or perhaps to Iranians -- they didn't author those articles either -- so what do you say? ;) --AdilBaguirov 18:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, so it's an Armenian conspiracy to takeover the Encyclopedias of the world. Why didn't you just say so? I can think of a number of Georgian and Iranian scholars. Ask user Kober or Mr. Ali doostzadeh, i'm sure they can help you with that. Btw there are about 25 million more azeri turks in the world than Armenians. Now RFA or be ignored, otherwise I will consider this harassment from now on.--Eupator 18:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You are displaying a wonderful example of misunderstanding -- neither your question, nor my answer, dealt with total number of scholars and researchers, but those who authored and edited the two largest encyclopedias, Britannica and GSE. Both had Armenian authors, both have Armenians on the Editorial/Trustee board, and one had an Armenian first deputy chief Editor. If you can show me Georgian or Iranian editors of Britannica or GSE, it would be wonderful. Likewise, let me know if the article about Iran in Britannica was written by an Iranian. --AdilBaguirov 19:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Once again, Azeris are spreading vicious lies and trying to get them to be believed. And they'll deny anything, even concrete evidence. Hakob 00:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Such as? What's the "concrete evidence" that you have presented? Meanwhile, why are you supressing and being so hostile to the evidence presented from VERY SOLID sources? And what do "Azeris" have to do with any of that? What are you talking about? --AdilBaguirov 06:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Tigran the II part 2
Hi for the sake keeping Wikipedia accurate I have to say that Tigran II was Armenian. 1) It seems Adil claimed that Tigran II is mentioned in book I chapter 18 of Joseph Flavius. That is not true as I looked for it: http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-1.htm He is mentioned in Chapter 18 as the king of Armenia


 * Wow, let's hold on a minute. What does it mean, "Adil claims" and "not true"? First of, you got the wrong book -- Flavius wrote several, and it is not Jewish Antiquities, but Jewish War. Secondly, Tigran was king of Armenia, just as Catherine II was queen of Russia -- and yet both were not ethnic Armenian or Russians. Third, I've provided the FULL online reference to the book, and it calls his very clearly as "Parthian". So how can it be "not true" when so many sources, most of which I quote directly, say it openly? Fourth, as I've said, it's not a secret in Armenia itself, many Armenians know this and it is tought at least at universities about those Parthian dynasties. --AdilBaguirov 16:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Now you're shamelessy lying.--Eupator 16:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

2) The book of procopius Chapter 3 also says nothing about Tigran II http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Procopius/Anecdota/3*.html Indeed over here, which is a book on Armenian history: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Asia/Armenia/_Texts/KURARM/13*.html It says: Tigran II, younger brother of Artavazd II and ruler of Armenia from 95 to 54 B.C., obtained the throne by ceding to the Parthians the districts which their predecessors had wrested from the Medes and Iberians, a seizure which supplied the excuse for the expedition of Mithridates II of Parthia

So he is not Parthian according to this book.


 * Once again, what is this? You once more got the wrong book -- see Procopius' "On Buildings" -- and it is not available online in English, otherwise I would have quoted it (unless I missed it). And again, I've provided full online reference and quote to check, it's very easy.


 * So Tirgan II Great was indeed Parthian, as multiple sources -- Armenian, Jewish and Byzantin -- attest to. --AdilBaguirov 16:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Nobody says so :) Some incorrectly refer to Moses of Khorene's connection of Arshakunis to Artashesians.--Eupator 16:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No, all solid sources say so! And no, Movses was absolutely correct and his info coincides with that of other sources, since aside form prof. Shahbazi's vague reference, everyone else is clearly saying that both dynasties, Artaxias and Arsacid, were Parthian, and that Armenia was ruled by many different kings -- Jewish, Atropatene (Median), Iberian, Parthian, Persian, Roman, etc., in that ancient period. --AdilBaguirov 18:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

3) On point three where he says: by Tigran's time, Armenian nobility was subjected/underwent strong Iranization, which begun as far back as Achamenid period, you can remind him that the Ghaznavids and Seljuqids went under rapid Iranization of culture and even considered themselves Iranian. That was not the case for Tigran II.


 * There is no need to "remind" anything. Tigranes' spoke his native Parthian, and Greek at the court, not Armenian. Turkic rulers spoke native Turki at home and in the army, and some spoke/wrote Persian. Just like today many speak English. --AdilBaguirov 16:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Tigranes spoke Greek and Armenian at the court and since he was a hostage of the Parthians during his early years he knew Parthian as well.

--Eupator 16:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No my friend, Tigranes II Great did not speak Armenian in the court -- there is no such evidence. He probably didn't even know it, as once again, most people in his cities were not even Armenian -- neither were his generals, most were either Parthian or "from China" like Mamikonian, or closest advisor, Jewish Smbat. In fact, which "Armenian language" do you refer to at the time? Grabar, the ancient Armenian, didn't exist yet. It was first written down in 5th century AD, despite usage of Pahlavi script by Armenians before Mashtots invented the Armenian alphabet -- which means that it was either invented/evolved, or adopted by all Armenians, only recently, at least all sources concur that it was first used to translate the Bible. In any way, Tigranes II could not have known Grabar. But it's well known he knew Greek and Parthian, Pahlavi, and perhaps Latin. --AdilBaguirov 18:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * 1)Armenian cities had a majority of Armenian population. 2)Metropolotian cities had captured peoples such as Jews and Greeks. 3)Mamikonians were not Chinese. 4)Bagratids were not Jewish. 5) The Armenian script was invented in the 5th century. 6) Armenian was spoken since at least 3rd millenium BC. 7) Strabo attests that all lands unified by Artaxias I spoke the same language, Armenian.--Eupator 18:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Your opinion is noted, but it needs to be verifiable, and not original research. All the sources presented, contradict your point of view, most notably all the relevant Armenian sources. Meanwhile, where did Strabo "attest" this? --AdilBaguirov 19:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

4) The Encyclopedia Britannica and Iranica are the latest and most updated sources and they are to be quoted. So I do not find any backing that Tigran II was Parthian from the latest sources.

--Ali doostzadeh 13:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * sorry Ali, but neither source denies Tigranes' Parthian ethnicity -- fighting with Parthia doesn't mean he was not Parthian, quite the contrary. Georgians constantly fought each other, as did Russians, as did Turkic people -- that's world history for you. Meanwhile, when the "father of Armenian history" Movses of Khorene of V century, Byzantin chronicler Procopius and Jewish chronicler of I century all say he was Parthian -- and so many modern sources concur and provide more details, like Armenians were not even in majority in cities at Tigranes' time in Armenia proper -- then we definitely have to mention that. --AdilBaguirov 16:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Your historical ignorance is astounding. Answer me this, if the founder of the dynasty was not Parthian than how is a direct descendant of the dynasty Parthian ? I'll play along though, it's quite amusing to see how desperate you people are.--Eupator 16:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Interesting and indeed very exciting: so for bringing all that wealth of sources I am the one who is "shamelessly lying" and ignorant of history? Bravo, that's classic! ;-)


 * Although Russian-language books from Armenian (!) authors are good enough, here's another verifiable English-language source for all those without shame to learn: Smith, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, page 362, http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0371.html:


 * On the other hand the Romans, with all the pride and haughtiness of conquerors, consider their instruments or allies alone as the legitimate kings, and they generally speak of the Arsacidae as a family imposed upon Armenia by the Parthians. As to the origin. of the Armenian Arsacidae, both the Romans and Armenians agree, that they were descended from the dynasty of the Parthian Arsacidae, an opinion which was so generally established, that Procopius (De Aedificiis Justi?iiam9 iii. 1) says, that nobody had the slightest doubt on the fact. --AdilBaguirov 17:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Adil, please check the recent discussions. I do not think the Parthian theory is valid, but I think we should move the discussion to the actual talk page.  --Ali doostzadeh 15:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You are confused in your own web of lies in a desperate attempt to find something where nothign exists. Request an RFA please, i'm getting tired of your nonsense.--Eupator 18:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Eupator, sorry to bring the discussion here, as this was one discussion I originally did not want to get involved in, but since somebody asked me too verify the matter.. --Ali doostzadeh 15:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi
I'm from Laval, which is in the Greater Montreal area, in Canada's province of Quebec. I was born in Lebanon and arrived here when I was 5 years old.

What about you?

--Davo88 14:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah... Armenians of Quebec in Wikipedia...


 * There are also plenty of Armenians in Chomedey (Laval), where I currently reside.


 * For how long have you been here?


 * --Davo88 14:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Why did you initially think that I'm Hayastantsi? Is it because I was writing a lot about Soviet Armenia and the Republic of Armenia?

--Davo88 14:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I see. When I was younger, a neighbour used to call me Davo, so it stayed. Nowadays, I only use Davo when I'm online. It's short for David, my actual name.

--Davo88 14:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Conservative_notice_board
Hello, I noticed that you identify as a conservative Wikipedian. So I would like to invite you to post any conservative issues you might have over at the new project page, Conservative_notice_board. Thanks. --Facto 05:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Featured article candidates/Azerbaijani people
Eupator, if you want Tombseye to work on History of Armenia next like he plans, you might want to state the reasons for your oppose vote. ;) &mdash; Khoikhoi 17:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, can you have a look at these changes made to the Azerbaijani people article? Thanks. &mdash; Khoikhoi 18:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks to Khoikhoi, I just noticed the problem. See my latest comment on Christianity and Albania. There were faulty sources that were inserted..  --Ali doostzadeh 04:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Edits on History of Armenia
Hey bro. I made some changes on the History of Armenia article. There is some stuff about orontids and stuff. I had no time, so if you want to link some words to your article, or clean it up, you are more then welcome.

Imijiaylots, yete en mer harevan yerkri kaghakatsin chorord angam pokhi hodvats@, karogh es zekutsel metserin.

Re: Hi
Che, chei nayel ed ejerin. Heto knayem. Shnorhakalutyun zgushatsumi hamar.

By the way, congrats, my Italian American friend--neither country won in the soccer game, but both played great (it was a draw--1:1) :)

emails statsar? --TigranTheGreat 22:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khojali

check it out ... seems like more pov moving in ...

Iraq and the War on Terrorism
WOT has opened its straw poll, and is open to discussion. Rangeley 01:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Civility
Regarding this edit: Please do not make personal attacks on other people. Wikipedia has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by admins or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please resolve disputes appropriately. Thank you. --InShaneee 20:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Exchange with Mr. Baghdasaryan
Hey Eupator,

Can you post your exchange with Mr. Baghdasaryan on the Nakhichevan talk page under the disputes section? Thanks! -- Clevelander 23:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Great! I always figured that the point of his text was that the Armenians should take care of their own house before criticizing the destruction in Nakhichevan.  This only proves my point, thus furthering disproving Adil's argument. Kenats't! Clevelander 00:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Azeris
Hello Eupator. Okay, so if I add mention of the Armenians in the west, will that give us your support? It would much appreciated as I wrote the article to reflect as much neutrality as possibible with academic views only. Also discussed this with Tigran who approved after some minor changes. Also, was wondering how Armenians wikipedians would feel about me doing the same to the Armenians page. I basically wrote the Azeris article myself (with research help from some folks and copyedits etc.) and I've written two featured articles : Iranian peoples and Pashtun people. Just wanted to run that past and see how folks would feel about it. At any rate I'll do what I can. Cheers. Tombseye 06:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I checked and indeed there were regions of today's Azerbaijan under Armenian control until the 400s so I changed it. Cheers. Tombseye 06:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

New War?
I just realized your "busy" label on the top of this article but if you can, maybe we can talk about this together with Tigran, Cleve, and perhaps Moosh. I just finished reading this and it seems it maybe the final nail for the coffin of the peace process so to speak. I'm not sure how familiar you are with military doctrine and stuff like that, I'm quite new to it, but it would be an interesting issue to discuss. The film looks great, I just hope the next ones will all be about the 1992-1994 and I just hope that I'll never have to turn to writing a "Nagorno-Karabakh War Pt. II" article.--MarshallBagramyan 15:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Country survey for WikiProject Armenia
Which country do you live in specifically (I'm doing this so I can include a flag next to your name on the WikiProject Armenia participation list). -- Clevelander 20:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Translation request for article
Greetings Eupator!

Can you please help me translate the additional doctrines of this article into the Armenian language? Your help would be very gratefully appreciated. Thankyou very much.

Yours Sincerely --Jose77 00:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Mount Ararat
You removed centuries of history in the Mount Ararat entry. The map I saw said that Mount Ararat was part of the kingdom. But even if that is wrong, you left several centuries unaccounted for. Would you please fix it or revert? Thanks Ssilvers 03:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your message. Sorry for the confusion--It was my fault entirely for my original slapdash research.  --Ssilvers 14:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Your re-write added a lot of useful info. Good job! -- Ssilvers 16:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The Armenian Revolutions?
Take a look at this. Looks like a fork of the Armenian Genocide article.--MarshallBagramyan 18:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Sources themselves look questionable.--MarshallBagramyan 18:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Added tags, I dont think some of those books even exist.--MarshallBagramyan 18:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Marshall and Eupator, I put a notice about this on WikiProject Armenia. Be sure to help out in anyway you can to improve these articles. -- Clevelander 20:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Civility (again)
Regarding this: Please do not compare other users to Neo-Nazis. It's not polite to refer to other users in any context, much less one such as this. --InShaneee 16:53, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't get it. --Tēlex 17:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * ...Thankfully, you weren't the one being warned. --InShaneee 17:13, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Ruining the Nk Article?
Were you attributing that to my edits or Adil's? Because I added the correct sources and you deleted them.--MarshallBagramyan 17:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I was just wondering why you deleted my references, that's all. I know the guy is ruining it, he just added Azerbaijan's flag and removed any mention of Armenians in the first line of the article. Just confused me a bit. MarshallBagramyan 17:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Move request for emperors of the Palaeologus/Palaiologos dynasty
Hi. There is a move request for several Palaeologus/Palaiologos dynasty emperors at Talk:List of Byzantine Emperors. I tought you might be interested in.--Panairjdde 22:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Georgia (country)
Hi Eupator. Thanks for your voting on the Georgia talk page. Sorry for being late :). Honestly, I don't see the way out of such a complicated situation like renaming the article on Georgia, but, anyways, I really appreciate your support. --Kober 10:54, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Possibly unfree Image:Artaxias stele.jpg
An image that you uploaded or altered, Image:Artaxias stele.jpg, has been listed at Possibly unfree images. If the image's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. Please go to its page to provide the necessary information on the source or licensing of this image (if you have any), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. User:Angr 10:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks for clarifying that. Could you forward a copy of your request and the copyright holders answer to permissions@wikimedia.org? They like to keep a record of the copyright statements they get. Thanks! User:Angr 14:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

images
Eupator, Vontsez? I got that one on ebay too and i scanned it. The source which ebay seller claims was © Bettmann but there was no rights protection. If you need more historic photos of armenians/armenia let me know and I’ll email you them. I have purchased some of photos of Armenians in WWI and genocide. Also Professor Abramian gave me interesting WWII photos of Armenian Legion as a gift. Let me know if you need them. All the best. Ldingley 15:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Eupator, Im not good on Wiki commons upload and tagging. Give me your email, i'll send you photos and rights to them. Some of them are from ebay, some from other places. I'l send you also Armenian Legion, including Varden Sarkisian (Hauptmann). Mr Abramian (one of the best WWII armenian historian in Yerevan University) has amazing collection. Ldingley 15:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Mr Eupator, you email has no space :( my photos came back.


 * Now that’s an email :) all of them departed from my server :) let me know about you impressions. I have more images Ldingley 15:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Enjoy! Ldingley 15:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Question
Hi, can I ask you a rather irrelevant question. What does 'Hye Etch' mean? --Tēlex 15:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, thanks. --Tēlex 15:24, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Armenians picture
Alright, here's my new plan (from left to right): Tigranes, Gregory the Illuminator, [Armenian woman - we can decide who later], William Saroyan, Viktor Ambartsumian, Minas Avetisyan, Tigran Petrosian, and [someone else from more recent times]. Sound good? -- Clevelander 22:54, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey Eupator, any ideas for that Armenian woman? I don't think we need a "modern Armenian."  I say we use Ivan Aivazovsky instead of Minas Avetisyan.  What do you think? -- Clevelander 23:47, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I too am at a loss for thinking of a famous Armenian woman. I don't think it matters, though.  I mean, there are no women present on the pages for Italians, Greeks, or Russians.  I think we have a good mix.  -- Clevelander 00:59, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I finished the image: Image:Famous Armenians.png. What do you think? -- Clevelander 01:36, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Re: Renaming an image
While I wish one could simply move an image as one does with an article of Wikipedia, I'm afraid it isn't possible in this instance. The only way you can rename an image is if you save the uploaded image to your computer, rename it, then re-upload it (obviously, you would have to credit the original photographer). You then need to say that the image is a renamed version of ".jpg". The original then needs to be tagged as a duplicate. It will be deleted shortly. -- Clevelander 19:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Please.
Stop replying to Tabib. Please. - FrancisTyers · 14:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

History of Nagorno-Karabakh
I've blocked you and User:Grandmaster for 12 hours for edit warring. - FrancisTyers · 20:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)