User talk:Evlekis/Archive5

 🇷🇸 Serbia - Please do not modify; you may start from fresh on my current talk page. ''Please note, this special page covers April 2011, a month on which there was no talk activity! Sorry about that, but the period had to be covered by one of the archive pages!''

Proposed deletion of Đuro Keškec
The article Đuro Keškec has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * WP:N, arguably even WP:V. No reliable, secondary sources to demonstrate the notability of this poltiician under the GNG.  He probably exists, there's a redlink to his name in the Macedonian wikipedia  at his party page that indicates that he managed about one-seventh of one percent of the vote in a parlimentary election, but there's no sourcing there that indicates his name. Searches for his name (Juro, Djuro or Gjuro) (Keškec, Keshkec) in Roman script proved futile via books/news/web after excluding Wiki-mirrors, a search on the Cyrillic name (Ѓуро Кешкец) found a letter to the editor he may have written to something, possibly a newspaper, but referenced via Google only via an IP address  -- information which would be neither secondary nor significantly verifiable.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. j &#9883; e deckertalk to me 21:34, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and delete the article. I created it over four years ago and the nature of my editing has changed over time. I believe I simply wished to create a page where there had been a red link and my hope was that others may be able to develop it, but we are talking about a minor Macedonian political party so there is little information on its leader. He may not even be the leader now. Evlekis (Евлекис) 23:04, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the note, yeah, it can be pretty hard to find sourcing there. Thank you for letting me know that you saw the issue. What will likely happen is that the PROD notice will sit for another 5-6 days just in case another editor is able to find more significant sourcing for the subject. If not, and nobody objects, then another administrator (that is, someone beside myself) will review the nomination one more time, just to make sure that I haven't missed something obvious. Your contributions--they are appreciated, they're just getting caught in the drive to try and make sure that biographies of living people are well-sourced. Have a great week, and thank you again for the note. --j &#9883; e deckertalk to me 23:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No worries Joe. Given we have an article based on an actual person, I suppose there is no harm in recreating a previously deleted article if indeed new information emerges. I'll see what I can do in the meantime. Thanks all the same. Evlekis (Евлекис) 23:22, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, if new info emerges, it will be uncontroversial for me or another administrator to undelete the article at that time, either drop me a note in that case or make a request at WP:UNDELETE. Cheers! --j &#9883; e deckertalk to me 23:52, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Problems with some IP idiot!
Hi Evle, listen I fed-up of some IP idiot who is removing the spaces and {{0 } } from Macedonian players stats in the infoboxes. I already tryied to leave him comments on his IP talk pages, but it seems that he didn´t bother. He seems to not understand what are usefull for, doesn´t see the difference, doesn´t bother, and edits every single Macedonian player on wiki. I fed-up! This is a tipical edit of his:. See? All other Macedonian players ended up having the stats together because of him (exemple: 87(5) instead of 87 (5). It is minor vandalism, but extremely annoying. What to do? FkpCascais (talk) 00:41, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi FkpCascais, for the time being I will use your edits as a thread each time I log on to give you the extra muscle in fighting against these disruptive users. By all means keep an eye on them but if I am here when you are not, then I'll restore your version. On principle it is very difficult to deal with IPs; one attempts to communicate with them only to find that by the time they have returned, the same user has hopped number. This way, irritating users avoid the block and warnings and continue to assert rubbish. What is worse is that users monitoring Recent Changes cannot detect the unconstructive nature of the edits and so they pass as decent, it is sneaky vandalism. The only thing to suggest is that the pages be raised to Established User Only status. That way, whoever is messing about will have to get an account, dealing with him will be made easier. For now, I will back your edits up and if the idiot persists, we'll see about blocking the IP range and disabling the pages to new users. Evlekis (Евлекис) 13:46, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If you are referring to this activity, I wouldn't worry, a month has p:assed and nobody has reverted you. Evlekis (Евлекис) 13:53, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your support, anyway, the exemple I gave you is the one I found yesterday, bt I´ve seen almost all Macedonian footballers having the exact same edits. Anyway, beside annoyingly removing the spaces and zero´s the IP has been adding a lot of stats for clubs that were missing caps&goals, but mostly without sourcing it. If it comes that the stats he has been adding are right, well that is usseffull, but if not it will be a huge pain in the a*s. Anyway, the first part that leaves the numbers in the infoboxes all together is what is most annoying, and I don´t beleave the guy even undertsnads what do they serve for and what is he doing... FkpCascais (talk) 07:20, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Right, I see your point. The anonymnous nature of this activity makes it impossible to communicate with the user. We cannot even establish whether he is being constructive or stupid; there is a chance it is the former. For now, what I would do in your position is continuously revert the user citing "unsourced" in the summary. This way if the IP engages in an edit war without explaining himself then he, not you, will eventually be blocked. If it goes on over days and days with different IPs then an admin will have the sense to see that the page is being abused by IPs so he should increase the protection level of the article. Hopefully by this stage, if the IP has something constructive to add, he'll realise he needs to start behaving appropriately and communicating in the summary if nothing else. Evlekis (Евлекис) 07:50, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Good correction
Yeah Evle, this is very nice! I also started using such lede´s, and everybody from Footy Project was wrongly using the unnencyclopedic expression "currently". Currently, when? No sence. Non encyclopedic and against WP rules (I´m not sure where exactly where the rule is, but I remember reading it somewhere). FkpCascais (talk) 21:09, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your support. So far it has had no resistance. Obviously, "currently" means at the time of writing which should also mean the time of reading (because it would need to be edited instantly once something changed). There are two reasons I remove the word, the first is because it has no place in an encyclopaedia, only a journal; secondly because its inclusion does not modify the sentence. If taking it out made a difference then I would not have done so. 99 times out of 100 the word is superfluous anyway, even in newspapers; and if you come across the word then feel free to remove it. There are times however when its inclusion is for the more constructive and there is no way of removing it without spoiling the piece. If in politics, one wishes to say that Mr.X is the 21st and current President of ABC-land then there is no way you can remove the word unless you also remove the information that he is No.21 in a series. His predecessors will all be "was the 20th", "was the 16th", etc. Evlekis (Евлекис) 21:18, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Obviously there are situations where "currently" is usefull, but I was talking only about footy biographies. But beleave me, it is not only our opinion on this, there is somwhere a WP policy not to use it in that context. I´ll try to show it to you when I find it. I first saw it when some veteran, but non-footy editor corrected it in some article I just had created, and I obviously convinced of myself reverted him explaining him that was the usual practice. Then he explained it to me and showed me the policy... It was some time ago, and despite that I didn´t reverted him, of course, but I continued leaving the "currently" in the articles, however after some time I fully understand it now. Beside, it is exactly as you say, it doesn´t change anything. Hey I forgot to mention you, I got to talk with the Macedonian IP user. He is Ace and he was blocked already for an account he had (Ace something, I can´t remember now) so he continued editing as an IP since then. As I told you, he is by no means a bad intentioned vandal, he was just totally unfamiliarised with wiki ways of working and he just tought he was correcting everything :) I still can´t understand how is that he didn´t noteced that the infoboxes after his edits were looking much uglier, but perhaps we differ in taste and style... I explained to him the usufullness of some thi8ngs he was removing and "correcting" and why they were wrong, and despite all, some improvement was archived but I still have some doubts that he understood it all. :P FkpCascais (talk) 21:35, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, and Evle, you don´t need to post your comment twice, here and in my talk page, since I have your talk page in my watchlist so I know when you respond, so you can only post here if you want to. FkpCascais (talk) 21:36, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I've only recently started doing this, it is just to facilitate threads when looking back. Generally people leave a talkback template on the recipient's discussion page but I haven't advanced that far yet!! :) Evlekis (Евлекис) 21:56, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You don´t need it with me :) See you around! FkpCascais (talk) 22:01, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Concerning Ace, maybe his intentions were good but there may have been communication difficulties; he may not be very good at English. Ako to je tačno onda ja bih govorio sa njega na srpskom ili makedonskom, sigurno razumije jedan od naših jezika. Evlekis (Евлекис) 22:02, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, that was most likely the case. We spoke in Serbian and he is not fluent in it either, but at least a conversation was possible. Anyway, since then he didn´t edited no more despite me not having been intinidating towards him at all (well, maybe a bit in the beggining when I was annoyed of having to correct a bunch of {0} and similar stuff) but it all ended with me inviting him to participate more, to open an account, and to be a regular caretaker of Macedonian League stuff. However, I did also explained to him how to do correctly many other issues that he was not doing, like adding sources, and he tried, but he just added the main page of general Macedonian Football sites. I provided him a link for WP:Sources. I think that he understood that by not knowing English and failing to understand how to make everything right he may gave-up by now, but perhaps he´s only having a break. Thinking of, Evle, it´s striking how people from ex-Yugoslavia speak so bad English, well many doesn´t speak at all! I remember for the period I lived in Belgrade that I had English classes in primary schooll, but it looks that they don´t serve for people to learn a language, but are rather just another discipline. I don´t speak so well English, but because I´m not ashamed of not speaking it, I go on, and that is why somehow I keep on improoving everyday. Well, troth to be said, I did go to an English schooll when a kid, but it was a long time ago anyway. For exemple, here in Portugal many people also don´t speak it, but everyone knows something and they are not affraid of speaking bad English with forigners, but on other hand, in ex-Yu I think people are affraid to look ridicolous if they try, so they just give up. I think that attitude may be one of the major problems why so many people doesn´t still today, in XXI cetury speak English in our area! FkpCascais (talk) 22:22, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Zanimljivo, ali ja mislim da oni iz bivše Jugoslavije govore dobro engleski. Ti sve razumiješ iako ponekad slabo pišeš! Nema problema, stvarno! Evlekis (Евлекис) 22:31, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Govore dobro??? Čekaj, misliš oni što govore, govore ga dobro, za razliku od Španaca koji govore i izgovaraju (pronounciation) tragično. Ja mislim da kod nas malo ljudi zna engleski, možda samo 1 od 10, dok u Portugalu engleski govori 5 ili 6 na 10. Razumeš na šta mislim? FkpCascais (talk) 23:25, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Moj problem sa engleskim je to što ga govorim bolje nego što pišem, i pišem ga onako kako ga govorim, a ne kako gramatički treba (my grammatical sentence structure must be terrible! but if you listen to what I writte you will hear me :), get it? FkpCascais (talk) 23:28, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

100% razumijem! Znam da ti odlično govoriš, ne brini. Nisam znao toliko su znali engleski u Portugalu. Evlekis (Евлекис) 23:36, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Pa engleski skoro svi mladi govore. A kad sve gledaš, možda 2 ili 3 na 10 ga baš dobro govore, a 2 ili 3 ne znaju uopšte. Ostali, većina su oni što sam spomenuo, oni što govore onako, znaju toliko za "basic conversation". FkpCascais (talk) 00:00, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Human height
From me: ''Please stop amending the average height of Dinarian people on Human height. There is a reference to substantiate the listed heights and your original research is not sufficient to change information. If you have a source that confirms the heights at 1cm less then please produce it, otherwise leave it. Evlekis (Евлекис) 07:26, 3 March 2011 (UTC)''

Reply Average height of adolescents in the Dinaric Alps. This study contributes to an update of average heights among European populations. Our investigation covering 2705 boys and 2842 girls aged 17 years, shows that, contrary to the general belief, adolescents of the Dinaric Alps are, on average, the tallest in Europe. With an average height of 185,6 cm, they are taller than Dutch adolescents (184 cm on average). Above all, the density of very tall subjects appears to be characteristic of the Dinaric Alps, since 28% measure 190 cm or more in height, as opposed to only 20% in Holland and 1.5% in France. Although our information is not complete, adolescent girls in the Dinaric Alps, with an average height of 171 cm come a close second to girls in Holland. To cite this article: J.-C. Pineau et al., C. R. Biologies 328 (2005).

Abridged English version: The diachronic increase in the stature of European peoples has always been of interest to anthropologists. Since the 1960s and until now, Scandinavians of both sexes had been the tallest Europeans, followed, in descending order, by the Dutch, Danes, Norwegians and Swedes. With the recent enlargement of the European Community, it has become necessary to establish which European country has the tallest adolescents on average. In 1968, Montenegrin teenagers, with an average height of 176.9 cm, had already been found to be the tallest, followed by Norwegians at 173.6 cm. Since then, there has been a significant increase in average heights in all European countries, especially Holland, where the average height among adolescents increased the fastest (8 cm in 40 years), to reach 184 cm in 2000. However, given the lack of recent data on average heights among inhabitants of the Dinaric Alps, we carried out a study to update the information available. The study was conducted among 17 year-olds (2705 boys and 2844 girls) in schools in various towns in Herzegovina and central Dalmatia. Boys, unlike girls, are still growing in height at 17 years of age. Different longitudinal studies have shown that boys, on average, grow by at least one centimetre between the ages of 17 and 20. We have therefore added one centimetre to all average heights for boys. As in other European countries, height is influenced by the social environment: in our study, lycée pupils were found to be 2–3 cm taller on average than pupils in vocational schools. Taking these variations into account as well as observed differences between coastal and inland communities, we found that the inhabitants of the Dinaric Alps are the tallest in Europe (185.6±6.84 cm), ahead of the Netherlands (184 ± 7.3 cm). Average heights found in the main representative towns in the regions surveyed were 185.48 cm in Split, 184.14 cm in Dubrovnik and 188 cm in Drnis (central Dalmatia) and 185.9 cm in Trebinje (Herzegovina). As well as the average difference of 1.5 cm between Dinaric and Dutch adolescents, the density of very tall subjects among the former is also the highest in Europe: 28% of our subjects measured 190 cm or more in height, 2.5% measured 200 cm or more and 6/1000 measured 205 cm or more. These differences are partly due to the highly variable stature of Dinaric people, although the coefficient of variation (3.68) is lower than for Dutch adolescents (3.97). Just as adolescents in northern Holland are taller than their southern counterparts, the inhabitants of mountain areas were found to be taller than those in coastal towns. This density of very tall subjects makes the Dinaric Alps a sanctuary for giants. In comparison, surveys of a similar number of males in other countries produced only one person in 2700 measuring 2 m or more in France, 8 in Germany, 40 in Holland and no less than 70 in the Dinaric Alps. Would this average have been greater still without the war of 1991–1995 and its attendant stress levels and malnutrition among the subjects we surveyed, who were 6 to 7 years old at the beginning of the conflict? Basketball players from the former Republic of Yugoslavia were already noted for their height. Players in the Croatian national team had an average height of 203.5 cm at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics, where they won the silver medal. In 2002, the Serbo-Croat national team, which won the world championships, measured 204.5 cm on average. Although there is not as much information available on European girls, it appears that girls from the Dinaric Alps, with an average height of 171.1±6.15 cm are the tallest in Europe, along with Dutch girls. As with boys, girls from mountain areas are taller than in coastal towns. We found average heights of 171.1 cm in Split, 169.4 cm in Dubrovnik, 171.52 cm in Trebinje and 174.3 cm in Drnis. As in other European countries, the genetic contribution is significant. Inhabitants of the Dinaric region, whether Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian or Montenegrin, are currently the tallest in Europe, and there is every indication that this will continue to be the case in the years to come. We intend to repeat this study with a larger number of very tall subjects, in the three Dinaric regions where the probability of a significant secular trend appears to be established. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Centrum99 (talk • contribs) 16:07, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the information on your post but you need to make that kind of documentation available in the article. It is no good adding a footnote when people such as I cannot gain access to that text. Even so, if an cm has been added then it has done for a reason; suffice it to say that early studies found a certain height whilst the additional count is based on an estimate. The source in this case is still listing 1.856. I'm not going to revert you on this occasion but I'm not walking away from this either, I'm hoping you address this matter and not just for me but on the talk where everyone can examine your version of events. Evlekis (Евлекис) 16:34, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I would simply quote only measured data. Not estimates. Can we come to an agreement? The measured mean is 184.6 cm in 17 years olds. 185.6 is an estimate in fully grown adults. Centrum99 (talk) 23:12, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Question on my mind
Zar nije "tjećno"? FkpCascais (talk) 00:11, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

But, isn´t for instance: "Rijeka Miljacka tječe kroz moj grad Sarajevo!". Rijeka tječe (sounding "tjeĆe")? FkpCascais (talk) 00:17, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice Evle. Thanks! Sad možeš nastaviti tečno editovati, a ja ću tjećno i srijećno. Have a nice week-end! FkpCascais (talk) 00:28, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Look at these guys faces. Hahahaa... Koje ludilo! FkpCascais (talk) 00:22, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree with all you said, but anyway, I don´t know why, but in comparison of other Poselo viseos, the crowd in this one looks specially funny and crazy. :) FkpCascais (talk) 00:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Feelgood Suits
Thanks for your edits on Pub Rock. Sorry I had to change "artistically unpolished" back to "filthy" but that was the word used in the original source and I was concerned it would get reverted as original research. Your phrase is much better and makes it clear that it was a deliberate sartorial choice on Lee's behalf. If you can find a good source on pubrock fashion, it would be great to get this back in. Silverwood (talk) 09:58, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

2011 Libyan uprising
Hello Avanu. I appreciate your good faith edit when you removed a great chunk from the intro of 2011 Libyan uprising. I also agree with you that it had become needlessly POV with many editors pushing to present certain angles. I know that intros should generally be short and this one was extremely long and was enough to repel novice readers. I just wish for you to know that my recent restoration of part of that text is not an act of defiance, I just believe that the information I had previously added belongs on the article. Please note also that I am neither pro- nor anti-Gaddai or opposition and I have only aspired to paint the picture of the episode. My biggest concern involves User:Gazpr who has twice now removed sourced information concerning rebel attacks on pro-Gaddafi civilians. Each time it has been conducted in a stealth manner but if I spot the source removed again, I shall discuss this with him. It had already been taken out by the time you blanked the section and now I have placed a small part of the removal into a new overview section before the timeline actually begins. I hope this is all right with you and I hope you appreciate I am neither pushing for rebels nor government. Evlekis (Евлекис) 08:47, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh I saw your edit, and I thought it was quite nice. Keep up the good work and thanks for keeping an eye on it. :) -- Avanu (talk) 08:50, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * And incidentally, I really hope that article can survive all the POV pushing going on. Parts of it really are jumping back and forth to things that I am simply surprised anyone could honestly see as anything belonging in Wikipedia. -- Avanu (talk) 08:52, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I realise this. I would personally advise you with the best of intentions that blanking is generally looked upon as hostile and it is far better to add citation tags, reduce smaller lumps, amend "journal-style" usages ("tyrant" or "dictator" to become "leader" or "president", "regime" to be "government" or "administration") and go about other ways to draw attention to the section. To be fair to you, I see you are standing by for a consensus and so am I for that matter. But as this is a current event with news coming in thick and fast and edits following suit, it may be better to wait a while until the situation settles down and then everybody knows where everybody stands. I'm just pointing this out so that you avoid ugly issues with other good-faith editors. Thanks. Evlekis (Евлекис) 16:41, 23 March 2011 (UTC)