User talk:Eye Smith

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Wilbert Rideau
Welcome to Wikipedia, Eye!

I took a look at your edits to the intro of Wilbert Rideau. WhisperToMe (talk) 14:40, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * 1. We have to acknowledge past and present in articles. The awards Rideau received were in collaboration with Sinclair, so that has to be noted in the intro. The awards Rideau received were not in collaboration with Sinclair.  Rideau won a Polk award and an ABA award, by himself.  The Angolite magazine won two other awards during the 6 years Sinclair was a co-editor.  Placing Sinclair in the lead paragraph because he was a co-editor for 6 of 25 years that Rideau was editor is not only disproportionate to his presence on the magazine, it slights the other associate and co-editors that did equally important and impressive work.
 * 2. The intro is supposed to be a summary of an article. We don't have to say "Wilbert Rideau is going to see the Dalai Lama in 2011" in the intro - that can go in the history section. A summary of Rideau's life should begin with his present status, not with information that is 25 years old.
 * 3. Please do not use "ibid" when making references. Ibid is easily broken. Instead use the same reference name, such as and for second and other times
 * 4. Please do not use IMDB as a reference. It is a good external link, but we don't like using it as a reference. Who is "we"?
 * 5. When you do link to news articles, please supply the URLs so people can see them readily. Also try to include authors, page numbers, etc. so people can easily find them in print media too.

While Rideau did have a number of co-editors, it seems like he had Sinclair the longest, and Sinclair was the most significant. Sinclair stayed with Rideau until the late 1980s. We can talk about other coeditors, but because Sinclair was with Rideau the most and interacted with him the most, Sinclair will show up the most out of all of the other coeditors. Sinclair was not with Rideau until the late 1980s, nor was he the one with whom Rideau produced the most noteworthy work. Sinclair is not the subject of this biography and his presence here is disproportionate to the role he played in Rideau's life.

In regards to the "Wordman" I haven't been able to find a record of the Times Picayune article on Google News, but I will open a resource request on it and see if a Wikipedian can find a digital copy of the article. WhisperToMe (talk) 14:47, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request - Resource request opened on Wordman WhisperToMe (talk) 14:52, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Rideau won a Polk award and an ABA award, by himself. The Angolite magazine won two other awards during the 6 years Sinclair was a co-editor. Placing Sinclair in the lead paragraph because he was a co-editor for 6 of 25 years that Rideau was editor is not only disproportionate

Got some good news - I got a copy of the article about the lawsuit dismissal of Sinclair's lawsuit. He indeed did name those other guys as defendants :) WhisperToMe (talk) 06:56, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Talk page
Firstly, please pay attention to your talk page. I am giving you important information here. Please respond to it and get in a dialog with me.

1. Please be careful when editing. Use the preview feature. Reviewing this version I see errors in italicizing and broken tags in the lead.

2. Remember that Rideau's article is under WP:BLP - Our Biography of living persons policy. You have to be extra careful when editing his page.

3. Stop using ibid. Please stop using ibid. It gets broken easily.

4. Always, always find URLs of news articles and include them in your citations. That way a Wikipedian can easily check whether the information is true. And I notice some of your citations are incomplete. Please see Citing sources and WP:V
 * ""Angola: Louisiana's Sore That Won't Heal," and "Imprisonment: Steel, Concrete Jungle," and "Veterans in Prison are Nation's Orphans," all July 2, 1975" - It's not saying what paper it's from. No page numbers. No URLs. That's a problem
 * "see " is not an acceptable citation

5. It turns out the Picayune story is real, I will include that. Thank you for finding the article that stated that the Sinclair suit was dismissed.

6. The fact that Rideau's going to a conference with the Dalai Lama does not need to be in the lead, but because Rideau and Sinclair together got those awards, Billy Sinclair has be mentioned in the lead of the Wilbert Rideau article.

7. Your version of the page only mentioned Sinclair twice. Problem is, all of the sources around the late 1970s and early 1980s mention how Rideau and Sinclair cooperated and together won the awards. How they had a bitter falling out in the late 1980s. All of that needs to be mentioned. Sinclair didn't just sue Rideau out of the blue. It's an ongoing feud.

WhisperToMe (talk) 21:39, 19 February 2011 (UTC)


 * About this
 * They don't talk to each other, but there has been activity. There's the book written by Sinclair, which has a negative viewpoint of Rideau. There's Jodie Sinclair speaking against Rideau at his trial. Rideau himself talks about this in his own book. You have to include this.
 * Your edits are still breaking the page.
 * "Restoring last page edited by Eye Smith. Subsequent edits have added information, particularly about Billy Sinclair, that are disproportionate to his role in Wilbert Rideau's overall life and are inappropriate on this site"
 * I argue that Billy Sinclair is a very important figure in Rideau's life, and is more notable than any of the other co-editors. Most of the early awards were joint Rideau-Sinclair awards. All of the references in the late 1970s to the time when they broke off contact around 1986 make this clear that this from was both of them. Because the bulk of the notable Rideau articles were in conjunction with Sinclair, Sinclair needs to be mentioned in Rideau's lead, and vice versa.
 * Let's solve this. I started Fringe_theories/Noticeboard
 * By the way, please begin to respond outside of edit summaries. Please see Talk pages
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 23:01, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Also, your intro says: "Wilbert Rideau (born February 13, 1942), is the author of In the Place of Justice: A Story of Punishment and Deliverance (Knopf, NY: 2010), which recounts the 44 years he spent in the Louisiana State prison system," Rideau's claim to fame is his journalism, not his writing the book. You mention what he is known for first. Please see Manual of Style (lead section) to learn about writing the lead of articles. WhisperToMe (talk) 23:17, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Wilbert Rideau article corruption
Stop corrupting the formatting of the article. If you can't make edits properly, don't make them at all.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:01, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Wilbert Rideau. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been reverted or removed. Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive; until the dispute is resolved through consensus. Continuing to edit disruptively could result in loss of editing privileges. Thank you.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:06, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor then please discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page. Alternatively you can read Wikipedia's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant notice boards.
 * If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, please seek assistance at Wikipedia's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.

Edit war notice
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war&#32; according to the reverts you have made on Wilbert Rideau. Users who edit disruptively or refuse to collaborate with others may be blocked if they continue. In particular, the three-revert rule states that: If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes. Work towards wording, and content that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If edit warring continues, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. --Bbb23 (talk) 01:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period is almost always grounds for an immediate block.
 * 2) Editors violating the rule will usually be blocked for 24 hours for a first incident.
 * 3) Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

Responses
WhisperToMe (talk) 02:22, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * 1. You need to read Talk page because you are not commenting correctly, Eye Smith. You really need to stop editing and read up and learn how to edit.
 * 2. "The awards Rideau received were not in collaboration with Sinclair."
 * Yes they were.
 * "Prison Success Story." - "The latest prize: a George Polk Award, on Feb. 24, for special interest reporting, shared with associate editor Billy Sinclair"
 * "U.S. APPEALS COURT THROWS OUT 1961 CONVICTION OF KILLER WHO BECAME A JOURNALIST IN PRISON." Under Rideau and Billy Wayne Sinclair, who became co-editor in 1978, the magazine won the Robert F. Kennedy Journalism Award and the American Bar[...]
 * "Press: Jail Journal": "Last week Rideau, 38, and Sinclair, 35, both convicted murderers serving life terms, won a prestigious George Polk Award for special-interest reporting." - They both won the same award, together
 * "Shared Fate": "Today, 20 years later, the convicts who were once hailed as the Woodward and Bernstein of prison journalism are both back in the public eye." - Woodward and Bernstein were a *team*
 * Even if it's 6 of 25 years, the most famous, heralded works done by Rideau and Sinclair occurred during those six years.
 * 3. "it slights the other associate and co-editors that did equally important and impressive work." - Sources? As per WP:V information needs to be presented in proportion to how often coverage occurs in reliable sources (newspapers, books, journals) - The articles from the late 1970s to 1986 always talk about Rideau and Sinclair equally. After 1986, I don't hear about Rideau's other co-editors that often (although Wikberg seems to have gotten some coverage) - It's mainly centered around Rideau. Even if the other co-editors did good work, the reliable sources focus heavily on Sinclair.
 * 4. "A summary of Rideau's life should begin with his present status, not with information that is 25 years old." - No, it begins with what he is famous for. Maybe a sentence or two can state his current status, but firstly and foremostly you talk about what he or she is known for. Many people are known for what they do in the past. There is a girl who did a webcam series in 1996 (Jennifer Ringley). Now she's leading a private life. When the article talks about her, it mentions her as being famous for her webcamming. What she does as a private person isn't that relevant.
 * 5. "Rideau won a Polk award and an ABA award, by himself." - The Polk award was not by himself, as demonstrated by the Prison Success Story quote above. The "U.S. APPEALS COURT THROWS OUT 1961 CONVICTION OF KILLER WHO BECAME A JOURNALIST IN PRISON." shows that the ABA wasn't by himself either.
 * 6. For the other two awards, that makes it... four awards during Rideau+Sinclair. How many when it was just Rideau alone?
 * 7. "Placing Sinclair in the lead paragraph because he was a co-editor for 6 of 25 years that Rideau was editor is not only disproportionate" - As demonstrated by the sources I find, it is very proportionate, in my opinion.

One last thing:
 * I must add: "Sinclair is included in Rideau's memoir only to the extent the story demands it." - Articles are based upon the total sum of secondary sources, not solely on a single memoir. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:17, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

--Bbb23 (talk) 02:50, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

A friendly note.
Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. It seems that you are off to a rough start, but that sometimes happens to editors. Here are a few pointers that may help you improve your experience. Thank you and good luck. -- Tom N (tcncv) talk/contrib 03:13, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * First, please take a look at the bold-revert-discuss cycle. You have been bold is making edits that you believe would improved the article.  However, another editor has reverted your edits because they disagree with your changes.  Rather than repeating the edits and engaging in an edit war, is is preferred that you take the issue to the article's talk page (here)to discuss the proposed changes and the reasoning behind them.  Wikipedia is a collaborative process and the experience is much more rewarding if you work with others towards a consensus.  If you cannot reach an agreement, there are mechanisms for inviting others for their opinions.  See WP:dispute resolution.
 * Second, please take a look at WP:Help and in particular, Help:Wiki markup. It is important to recognize that there are differences between the article presentation and the article source.  One cannot be cut and pasted into the other.
 * I noticed that some of the material you have added contained references. Rather than displaying that information as part of the main text, Wikipedia displays them as footnotes.  To do this, your reference information should be surrounded by " ".  Wikipedia will move "your-reference-information" to the references section, assign a reference number, and display that number in the main text.  There are actually more formal ways of formatting references, but you can learn that as you progress.  Ask others for help if you need it - either on the article's talk page or at the Help desk.
 * When you add notes to a talk page, be sure to sign you notes by ending them with four tildes " ". That will be automatically replaced with your user name and a time stamp.  Also, when responding to others, it is customary to precede your response with one or more colons (":") which will indent your response.

You're being discussed for possible sanctions
Hello Eye Smith. Please see WP:AN3. You may respond there if you wish. You may be able to avoid sanctions if you will promise to stop warring. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 04:14, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Please see the result of this complaint at WP:AN3. You are urged to participate in discussions before doing any further reverts on this article. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 19:25, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Updates on Wilbert Rideau
Please take a look at Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard WhisperToMe (talk) 20:53, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it is best if you start talking on the BLPN noticeboard and stop editing. In particular, the changes at Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard were what a third individual (neither you or I) proposed regarding this WhisperToMe (talk) 00:59, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit warring at Wilbert Rideau
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 48 hours for edit warring. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the text, but you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. The complete report of this case is at WP:AN3. EdJohnston (talk) 03:32, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Can someone please tell me how to "talk" to someone on their "talk" page? I have gone to the talk pages of Whisper to me and Ed Johnston. I see no button to push that will allow me to type in anything. I am sorry that I am not an experienced wikipedia user or editor. That does not mean that those more technologically advanced should be allowed to say whatever they wish, whether it is true or not. I am sorry that I must work hard to earn a living as a self-employed person and do not have the luxury of spending hours trying to figure out how to respond to your other editors. If wikipedia is only available to the technologically savvy, that is a real shame. By the way, this post is from Eye SmithEye Smith (talk) 03:56, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

And, may I also say, that the revert to Whisper To Me's lead does not make sense as Rideau was NEVER primarily known as a "former death row inmate" and only held that status because of unconstitutional convictions, as proved by his 2005 trial and jury verdict of manslaughter, which other editors have apparently deemed insignificant.

I am really frustrated that I cannot talk to any of the editors, to include Whisper To Me, Ed Johnston, Bbb23, and the other one, tvc or whatever his name is, that have decided that my edits, fully sourced, are inappropriate. And I really do not understand why my reverts have blocked me, but the reverts of others have not blocked them. I would really appreciate it if someone who is neutral would talk to me.
 * Eye, please read Talk pages - it tells you how to respond to people's comments on a talk page, how to intend your comments. Stuff like that. You edit comments in the manner. To talk to someone, you have to edit his or her talk page or a discussion page and insert your comments in a separate line. The Wikipedia page explains what the process is.
 * Let's look at the lead: "Wilbert Rideau (born February 13, 1942) is a former death row inmate in Louisiana, as well as an author and award-winning prison journalist." - He is famous for being all three; a prisoner, an author, and a journalist. He's not primarily known for writing a memoir. That is secondary to what his main role was. I talked about it more at Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard
 * "I am really frustrated that I cannot talk to any of the editors, to include Whisper To Me, Ed Johnston, Bbb23, and the other one, tvc or whatever his name is, that have decided that my edits, fully sourced, are inappropriate." - Well, it turns out that other editors agreed that Billy Sinclair should be mentioned less often (as in he shouldn't be mentioned in the lead). But I still argue that the award that Rideau won was a joint award, based upon the TIME magazine source (the one that you cited yourself) and another source I found, the Long Island University source. While you cited sources yourself, I took out a quote, looked at the quote, and determined from it that there was one award.
 * "If wikipedia is only available to the technologically savvy, that is a real shame." - Well, if you are not technologically savvy, you need to be extra careful. It's not impossible to edit, but it takes time learning the tools and being conservative about your actions. Instead of reverting over and over again, you should have only participated in the talk page discussions. Your block will expire, so during the time your block is in effect, please read the tutorials.
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 04:36, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Would it be alright if you e-mailed me microfilms of some of the articles you are citing? I mentioned some of them at User_talk:Infrogmation to a person in New Orleans. If you have scanned copies or microfilms of the articles, please send them to: whisper (dot) world (at) yahoo (dot) com. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:44, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Another idea would be to create your proposed version of the article in your userspace, such as User:Eye Smith/Wilbert Rideau - And then people can compare it to the current version and comment on it WhisperToMe (talk) 12:57, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

As an FYI, you are now unblocked. WhisperToMe (talk) 23:10, 24 February 2011 (UTC)