User talk:Eyebeemer

Regarding the ThinkPad Wikipedia page....it is apparent by our continual exchange of posts, edits and accusations of "inaccuracy" that we have a different perspective on details of ThinkPad design development.

Therefore, rather than continuing to refute each other's information by editing the Wikipedia ThinkPad page, I suggest we begin a dialogue on this "talk" page to resolve our apparent disagreement. Like many disagreements, I feel ours is simply a matter of communication. I'm certain you will agree our ultimate goal should be to portray the most accurate information on the ThinkPad page.

Do you agree with having a "talk" page dialogue?

Dezignr (talk) 20:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

No talk needed. The ThinkPad was designed by Richard Sapper, which is a publicly known and well documented fact.

In certain instances, a designer, whether they be an industrial designer, fashion designer, architect, graphic designer, photographer etc., might be supported by or collaborate with a team to bring a product into existence. These teams can be cited along with the designer, as reflected in Eyebeemer’s version. However, with respect to the actual design of the product, ultimate credit for its conception and development should remain with the lead designer responsible for the design element of the project.

To suggest, as Dezignr does through the use of deceptive phrasing and language, that the ThinkPad design was conceived and developed by Tom Hardy “in collaboration with” Sapper is simply false. Furthermore, for Dezignr to delete numerous published citations from reliable, legitimate sources, which include interviews of persons at IBM and Lenovo, and which attest to ThinkPad’s design by Sapper, on the basis that these citations used by Eyebeemer are inaccurate, is preposterous.

Certain individuals might have had a role in the strategy or development of a product line at IBM, but no documentation or citation attests to their direct participation in Sapper’s design, especially in the case of the first ThinkPad, with the exception of Mr. Yamazaki’s collaboration. Using word manipulation, such as referring to design “concept”, or naming certain individuals ahead of the designer, as in Dezignr’s version, to unjustifiably capture credit for another designer’s work certainly does not promote accuracy for Wikipedia readers.

Eyebeemer (talk) 09:55, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

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Eyebeemer's acerbic tone, false accusations and argumentative language do not warrant a response. The following is merely to set the record straight:

Dezignr did not intentionally use deceptive phrasing and language to imply that the ThinkPad design was conceived and developed by Tom Hardy. Furthermore, to the best of Dezignr's knowledge, Mr. Hardy himself has never made or implied such a claim to capture credit. This false accusation by Eyebeemer is misguided and misinformed personal opinion. The use of the phrase "in collaboration with" applies to the complete development process...not the ThinkPad industrial design itself as Eyebeemer mistakenly claims. As far as the accuracy of Eyebeemer's "follow-up team version", Mr. Hardy retired from IBM after 1992 and was consequently not involved beyond the first ThinkPad. It is obvious that EyeBeemer has not taken the time to read credible in-depth published sources such as the 1999 book, "ThinkPad: A Different Shade of Blue" or the 1994 London Business School Case Study (also published as a chapter in the 1998 book, "Management of Strategic Alliances"). These publications go to great lengths to illustrate the complexities of how the overall success of the 1992 ThinkPad product came about by in part from DESIGN MANAGEMENT STRATEGY, RISK TAKING, and the COLLABORATIVE PROCESS, in addition the contribution of Mr. Sapper's superior industrial design skills. Likewise, Mr. Hardy's 1998 article, "Design Saves the Brand" provides insights into key COLLABORATIVE DESIGN MANAGEMENT actions taken to enable Mr. Sapper to achieve his design vision for IBM, not only for ThinkPad, but across the entire product line. Mr Hardy was named "Innovator of the Year 1992" by PC Magazine...not for "designing" ThinkPad, but for his IBM design management leadership effort that ensured Richard Sapper's outstanding ThinkPad design came to fruition. Dezignr (talk) 00:40, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

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Intentional or not, that is exactly how Dezignr's previous version read especially since it was all under the heading "Industrial Design". Anyway, the new version sounds more accurate and interesting, an improvement all around. For the future, Dezignr, you do not own the ThinkPad page, others are allowed to contribute as well without you deleting everything and having to have the last word/version! That is how Wikipedia works. BTW, since when has LBS become the ultimate reference bible on design matters?

Eyebeemer (talk) 15:53, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

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Thanks for your feedback. I understanding and respect the independent contribution principle of Wikipedia. My specific deletions and postings were predicated solely on a conviction that the reference sources I possess were more in-depth, thereby providing an accurate accounting for the ThinkPad page.

Regarding your question, "when has LBS become the ultimate reference bible on design matters?"...that document was developed by a reputable and independent academic institution in 1994 (published 1995) shortly after the original ThinkPad was announced. The content focuses on design execution, strategy and collaboration, including history of IBM's notebook computer development and interviews with Sapper, Yamazaki and Hardy during 1993-1994. There are also descriptions of their respective roles/responsibilities + how they interacted with each other. The document is hard to find but I located a PDF online for $35. In order for you to have a copy, I posted a PDF on dropbox so you can have a gratis download at this link -- https://www.dropbox.com/s/w7lgtxjdwoudd75/LBS%20Case_ThinkPad_1995.pdf

Dezignr (talk) 18:53, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Dezignr. Just to clarify on the accuracy and credibility of references used, Eyebeemer used Michael Webb's book on Sapper (and interviews with Sapper himself) as sources, in which Sapper describes his thinking behind his ThinkPad design. Eyebeemer is not sure how a source by LBS would be more accurate than statements from the horse's mouth. For example, on the issue of the Bento versus cigar box inspiration, Eyebeemer cites references where Sapper, as the designer himself, states that the proportions of a cigar box were his inspiration for the first ThinkPad. The Bento box reference is repeatedly mentioned in some sources, as used by Dezignr, but stem from statements made predominately by David Hill (rather than Sapper) who, according to sources cited, collaborated with Sapper only from 1995 onwards and not on the first ThinkPad. Eyebeemer's references are therefore at least as in depth, if not more accurate, than the sources used by Dezignr. Also, just by looking at a Bento box, which is square, versus a cigar box, which indeed has very similar proportions to the first ThinkPad, the cigar box seems to make greater sense as Sapper's source of inspitation. Maybe the Bento box is more frequently cited by IBMers due to its black color or because a cigar box sounds less pc than a Bento????? Bento or cigar box or other disputes aside, thank you to Designr for respecting contributions by others as well going forward.... Eyebeemer (talk) 09:57, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Dezignr (talk) 15:21, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the point of whether the Bento box or the cigar box was Sapper's first source of inspiration, the LBS author (Kiyonori Sakakibara) also interviewed Sapper himself in 1994 about his thinking. Consequently, the Bento box statement was directly from the horse's mouth shortly after ThinkPad was announced. To add further credibility to the Bento box being the initial inspiration, Sakakibara interviewed Yamazaki and Hardy in 1993-1994, both of whom directly worked with Sapper during the project from 1990-1992 and were together with Sapper at the 1990 meeting in Sapper's Milan studio when the first model was revealed. This seminal meeting is chronicled in Peter Golden's article "Big Blue's Big Adventure" (1999) where the "Bento box was stated by Sapper as the concept inspiration. Therefore the dates for which the Bento box is cited as the initial inspiration for ThinkPad are twelve years earlier than Eyebeemer's Michael Web's book reference. This is not to say that Eyebeemer's references are incorrect. But while they are credible and accurate, as are Dezignr's references, the 'what was first' issue simply comes down to dates. References to the Bento box began by Sapper in 1990 and the cigar box was not referenced by Sapper until 2002. Futhermore, David Hill was obviously involved in the 2008 Lenovo video where Sapper discusses the cigar box, yet in Lenovo's 20th anniversary book, "ThinkPad: Spirit & Essence" (Dezignr reference) Hill dedicates an entire page to the Bento box as the ThinkPad concept inspiration. The cigar box does not appear anywhere in the book, which would have been approved by Lenovo design consultant Sapper. Consequently, the credible 1990's date references (including interviews with Sapper) together with Lenovo's official position in the 20th anniversary book are evidence that validates the Bento box as Sapper's initial inspiration and that he uses the cigar box a relevant and effective metaphor. Dezignr (talk) 15:21, 28 July 2013 (UTC)