User talk:Fabrictramp/Archive 05

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Delivered by SoxBot II (talk) at 18:28, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there is an excellent reason for my actions...
... I completely screwed up! I completely forgot dead end was for outgoing links. I was cursing and muttering to myself about "stupid people using non standard orphan templates" that have completely bamboozled orphanbot and carefully replacing each tag (even making sure to keep the date). Damn, I'm sorry. Thank you for noticing my misguided rampage and for fixing some of them. How many did you catch? I must have tagged a couple of hundred over the weekend. I'll try to go through and self revert. DAMN! So where's my trout? That's gotta be a trout worthy stuff up! Cheers, Paxse (talk) 15:43, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Make sure you have that trout with a little herb butter and a nice salad. Sounds like a glass of your favorite beverage might be in order, too. :)


 * I only saw the two I mentioned, and then only because I went to this toolserver page to update the list of pages needing deadend tags and saw two had been visited by me before. Seemed odd, so I checked it out.


 * Don't stress too much about any you didn't catch, as they're somewhere in the toolserver list and will get retagged eventually. -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:59, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Coincidently, I was working from this very similar toolserver page when I began to mass revert your tagging - doh! The herb butter sounds damn fine, I think I'll just go and get the G&T now. :) Paxse (talk) 17:41, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I've closed 3 AFDs on minor league players thanks to you

 * Articles for deletion/Collin DeLome
 * Articles for deletion/Trey Hearne
 * Articles for deletion/Derek McDaid

I've heard you say in the past that you're not a big fan of NACS but due to your sourcing these articles, I felt it ok to close these despite a few "drive by vague wave" delete !votes. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:44, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * As the originator of the AfDs (I was wasn't I?) I just want to say that I think that is the right thing to do (admin or not), and I appreciate all the work that Fabrictramp put into these articles, all 22ish. kelapstick (talk) 03:37, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem on these Ron. You're the exception to my "not a fan" rule, because I've never seen you close an AfD without putting thought into it. And thanks for the appreciation Kelapstick. I wouldn't have gotten off the stick (pun intended) to work on this (insert some Daily Show type phrase here that alludes to the overwhelming number of articles that needed evaluation) without your great work on sorting the 200 articles in question.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  13:57, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * And to think I just got (figuratively) yelled at on my talk page for closing Trey Hearn early. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I respect DGG immensely, but sometimes he needs to lighten up. :) -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  00:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * He tries to save articles. That's always a good thing. My position on the whole "7 days is 7 days is 7 days" thing is here. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 12:22, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed, and I think they were snowballable, even if it wasn't said in the closing.--kelapstick (talk) 05:37, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't like to say "snow" for AFDs with unwithdrawn "delete" !votes (even "drive by per noms") or for AFDs that are being closed anywhere within the neighborhood of of 7 days. Also, "snow" is overused in AFD, especially by non admins. It's only appropriate for articles where it's obvious to any reasonable person that the article is not going to be deleted (ie George W Bush) or articles that fall under WP:OUTCOMES if there are no arguments for deletion besides the nominator. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 11:41, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Haiku Poetry of Stevardo 56
Hi to Fabrictramp,Tried to delete ALL on my Talk Page but it kept on coming up again.Can you please wipe it all as I have pre-storaged it on a 3.5 floppy. Was intending to do this anyhow but your note motivated me, so thanks. Enjoying the use of the page and will endeavour to get more in as its good for my grey matter...Hi, Thanks Stevardo56 Stevardo 56 (talk) 14:02, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  17:36, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The word "Gotten"
It's interesting to read still the American usage of the word "Gotten" This word is a hang-up from the past when the word must have been used widely in old English.It also seems to have been part of "Bible Speak" and there also is the word "Begotten" Gotten nowadays is rarely used in modern English as the word "Got" fits the part. Of course others will disagree.Stevardo 56 (talk) 19:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of poetry etc
Hi to Fabrictramp and thanks for the deletions.I think i have managed to delete superfluous verbage also on my user page so i can start on a clean slate.(D.V.)Stevardo 56 (talk) 19:49, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

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Delivered by SoxBot II (talk) at 04:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Minor leagues
Hi, I wondered if you would be so kind as to lend a second opinion to a discussion I've been having with kelapstick regarding these articles. I've worked on a few of them and, while they may not all pass the GNG in the strictest sense, it is my, humble (though biased because of my opinion on the policy!), opinion that, now they at least resemble articles rather than piles of statistics, they should be left where they are, regardless of their notability status. Of the five that I've done so far, I beleive 2, possibly three, have a genuine claim to notability aside from "I play minor league baseball", 2 probably fall slightly short of the GNG and the last is very dodgy- a note to which effect I've left by its link in kelapstick's sanbox. Kind regards, HJ Mitchell (talk) 12:04, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Any chance you could point me to the specific articles in question? I won't have much time today, but could take a look tomorrow. -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  17:42, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Articles in question were: If you consider this profile (which is on the "official athletics site of Arizona State University", so hardly independent) significant coverage (I wouldn't) it may tip the scales on Sogard and Davidson, but the other two are just sourced with stats sites, I wouldn't consider either of them to pass the GNG as is without additional sourcing per the GNG.--kelapstick (talk) 18:41, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Eric Sogard
 * Doug Brandt
 * David Austen
 * Daniel Davidson


 * I've added more sources to Sogard, along with a couple of external links that go to interviews with him. If it were at AfD, I'd probably be in the weak keep camp on him. Will look at the others as I get time in the next couple of days.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  21:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm striking out on Brandt. I added one more source, but that's all I found, which means notability is either hinging on the all-star appearance or the "minor leaguers are profesionals" thing. This would be a good candidate for redirect or deletion.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  21:35, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I feel like I'm missing sources that are out there on Austen. There's not enough at present to pass GNG, but it seems like someone who got pitcher of the year in the VWL ought to have more buzz. True, the VWL is definitely minor league, but I do see a lot of guys there who are on the cusp between AAA and the majors doing some work during the off season, so I assume the level of play isn't too shabby. Perhaps someone like Hit Bull Win Steak will have a better line on sources for him.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:05, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Davidson has had his cup of coffee in the majors, so he passes WP:ATHLETE. Getting enough to pass GNG would be a bonus, but I'm too tired to look for it right now. I did add a source for the dfa, and more sources will probably pop up if he gets picked up by another team.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:14, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I've done what I can for the articles in question. I'd be the first to admit they're not exactly going to be FA candidates in the foreseeable future. However, they're there, they're not copyvios, defamatory or anything else so why not just let them be? Your casual RC/ RA/ NP patroller would be unlikely to prod them or send them to AfD. The only people who would would most likely be WP Baseball members or someone who's followed this mini- saga! Anyway, I stuck my oar into the discussion so I felt I should do what I can for the articles. I say just leave them where they are and see what happens. Regards, HJMitchell  You rang?  22:42, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't get me wrong, I'm not in a rush to delete them. (Except that I do feel the Brandt article shouldn't stay in its current form). But in general, I can't agree with the "it's not hurting anything so let it stay" argument -- that's the thin end of the wedge. Next it's "the article about my garage band isn't hurting anything" and "the article about my cat isn't hurting anything". If WP:Notability needs to be changed, then let's change it. But ignoring the guidelines isn't the way to institute change, IMHO.


 * I'll also respectfully disagree that the casual NPPer would be unlike to nom at least Brandt for deletion. I spend a lot of time patrolling deletion cats, so I think I have a pretty good handle on what gets nom'd. (I was rescuing an article from speedy deletion when you left your message). Articles like these get nom'd all the time, some correctly and some incorrectly. That's why I like to get as many quality refs as I can into the article, instead of trying to rely on WP:ATHLETE, so that any incorrect deletion noms become blindingly obvious to non-baseball fans.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, a question about how you categorized these articles at User:Kelapstick/Sandbox. Except for Davidson, I can't find any evidence these guys have been on an MLB roster (either 25 man or 40 man). Can you link to a source for that? It would help the notability argument. Thanks!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:57, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Just a note, that I found these articles while I was new page patrolling and have no ties to WP:BASEBALL (until now). I did prod a lot of them, and send to AfD some of the ones below AA.  I agree with Fabrictramp, and in fact "it is not harming anyone" is one of the  arguments to avoid in deletion discussions, for the reason posted above.  And I have no problem with keeping minor league articles about players that pass the GNG, or either of the baseball standards (if one were universally adopted), and Fabrictramp has been doing a great job sourcing the articles that were up at AfD (that had sources available) and commenting on the ones that don't.--kelapstick (talk) 15:38, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I know, I know, it just seems a shame to see good faith contributions obliterated because it's been decided that they're not worthy, especially considering some of the crap I see patrolling! Having watched from the sidelines, I don;t really hold out much hope for a change in WP:N or either of the other policies, though it's worth raising the issue. If we can't keep them then, I suggest we prod all but Sogard and see if anyone objects. Sogard, however, I hold out some hope for, his claim to notability might be a little dodgy, but he seems fairly well known, though I know sweet fa about baseball, I can do a google search. He gets more coverage than the rest, even after you discard the blogs etc. HJMitchell  You rang?  23:24, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The only one I'd suggest a prod on at the current time is Brandt. Davidson definitely passes WP:ATHLETE, so if you think he needs to go (and it sounds like you don't), then prod wouldn't work because I guarantee you that will be controversial. I also have a gut feeling that David Austen is notable and any lack of sources is a failure of my google-fu, so that would be better at AfD as well. (Again, only if you think he needs to be gone -- I don't think that one should be deleted).-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:34, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to agree- they're a combination of the efforts a number of editors and, if it were up to me, almost all would stay. They're not the best articles on here but I've seen much worse! I think they contribute more to wikipedia than "my cat" or "my myspace band that no-one's ever heard of"- it's not unlikely somebody would look them up. I agree that Brandt is a bit dodgy and I'm sure there are others out there that are equally dodgy. The question is what do we do with them? To follow the "the article about my cat" line, they can't stay on here if they don't pass some test of notability. I'm more than willing to trawl through and make these articles resemble decent encyclopaedic entries but, frankly, what's the point if they're not going to pass these tests?

How about merging some of the worst ones into a single article with a title to the effect of "List of minor leaguers who do not, on their own, pass the GNG"? Could that work? It would be a pain in the arse to make, though we could just copy and paste the best titbits from each one. It would, at least, solve the problem of what we do with them. HJMitchell  You rang?  00:03, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * So far a number of them have been redirected to articles such as Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim minor league players. Not ideal, because the section will have to be moved when a player changes organizations, but at least it gives the reader a redirect leading them to a paragraph about the player. I have a hunch it was done organization-by-organization to keep the list from becoming overwhelming -- I wasn't involved in the decision, so I have no idea.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  00:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

It's better than nothing, I suppose. It keeps the information on here. How about an article similar to List of fictional United States Presidents which also raises a good policy point- how can we have an article on a load of presidents who never existed and not on a bunch of baseballers who blatantly do? Anyway, my point is that we could stick them all in there, dividing it by alphabetical order of name and redirecting them there so they're still searchable?
 * Could I ask a favour? Since it's gone half one in the morning here, regrettably, I must sign off. If you'd leave a talkback on my own talk page, I'd be grateful and I shall gladly resume the discussion at a more sociable hour! Until then... HJMitchell  You rang?  00:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Might be a good idea to bring it up at WP:MLB. I personally don't care where they're redirected to, just so long as it's a standard place that gets maintained once in a while. :)-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Again, I'd tend to agree with you. It might be a lot of hassle to change them round, as you stated, when the players move from one organisation to another, but it's better than nothing. At least the edit history is preserved for future use if it's needed. HJMitchell  You rang?  16:38, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Listas
I saw that you use a list as script for AfDs, I tried to set mine up and couldn't get it to work...Do you have any suggestions? --kelapstick (talk) 16:30, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It took me a while to get the right configuration -- looks like mine is a bit different than what you were trying.


 * Mine is:
 * importScript('User:Quarl/util.js');
 * importScript('User:Quarl/wikipage.js');
 * importScript('Wikipedia:WikiProject User scripts/Scripts/Add LI menu');
 * importScript('Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/delsort.js');


 * I commented out the line importStylesheet('Wikipedia:WikiProject User scripts/Scripts/Add LI menu/css'); because it seemed to break other things and the script runs fine without it, even though it's listed as mandatory. Also remember that you need Twinkle installed -- IIRC, I needed it to be before any of the other lines for things to work correctly.


 * If all else fails, feel free to copy the contents of my monobook complete, and then start eliminating anything you don't like. HTH!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:39, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I have twinkle, but I use Google Chrome not firefox, I wonder if that is an issue, but I will try it. Thanks. --kelapstick (talk) 16:45, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * That could be a factor. I tried Chrome for a day and it drove me nuts (short trip); I can't remember if the scripts worked in it.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:47, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's chrome, seems to be working now, too bad, I prefer it to Firefox, might just need to use it for listing AfDs I suppose :D, thanks! --kelapstick (talk) 17:11, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

BLP and BOT
Dear Fabrictramp Can you please comment on the following:

"[edit] BLP unsourced tag in article on Albert Bitran I don't understand this tag since there is a References section in the article. Please explain or remove. Thanks. Bgoodnam (talk) 15:50, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

All the bot does is convert unreferenced to BLP unsourced on biographies of living people. The page was already tagged as unsourced before the bot edited it. As with any maintenance tag, you are free to remove it if its not correct. If you want to find out why it was tagged as unsourced, I suggest you ask User:Fabrictramp, who added the unreferenced template in the first place. Mr.Z-man 17:22, 2 May 2009 (UTC)"

I would also appreciate if you could explain what is BLP and what is BOT. Thanks Bgoodnam


 * A BLP is Wikipedia shorthand for Biographies of Living People. Biographies of living persons has more information on the special requirements for those type of articles. A BOT is short for a robot, an automated or semi-automated tool that carries out repetitive tasks on Wikipedia. Bots has more on this. In general, if someone uses an abbreviation here that you don't understand, type "WP:" (without the quotes) into the search box, followed by the abbreviation. Odds are very good it will take you to a page that explains the abbreviation.


 * You could certainly remove the unsourced tag, as there are sources in the article now (there weren't when I placed the original tag, and whoever added the sources didn't remove it). The formatting of the sourcing does need to be improved (see Citing sources), and preferably changed to inline citations (see CITE), but I can't see that anyone would have a reasonable objection to you removing the tag. HTH.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:17, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your assıstance Bgoodnam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.108.247.62 (talk) 13:47, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

AWB
Please be careful when using AWB on articles containing Article issues. The current version of AWB has several major bugs with this template. I have had to fix several articles you broke today. --Pascal666 00:02, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I started going through your contributions fixing all the problems, but there are just too many of them, I do not have time. Per WP:AWB: edits made using this software are the responsibility of the editor using it. Please review all of your recent contributions and fix all articles containing broken Article issues templates. If you review my recent contributions you can see the kind of problems with your edits I have been fixing (usually just the word "date" added onto a parameter). Thank you. --Pascal666 00:25, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I had time today to finish going through your contributions. As long as you use AWB version 4.5.3.1 or newer in the future you should not have more of this problem. --Pascal666 19:47, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the assist. I thought I had caught them as I was making the edits (I already filed a bug report on this on Saturday), but obviously some slipped by.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:29, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

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Delivered by SoxBot (talk) at 21:47, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Smellypits
Hi. Just curious why you flagged Smellypits with a level 3 warning. I don't see a level 1 or 2 appearing on it prior to your level 3 warning. Just two speedy delete notifications, which I didn't think counted toward warning counts. With my subsequent L4 warning (followed by your duplicate and then reverted L4--Sorry about that), he's on the verge of a block, but without L1 and L2, that's not actually proper. Am I missing something? Have a good day! &mdash; Will scrlt ( “Talk” ) 17:57, 9 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Pretty much a judgment call. Between the name, the history of inappropriate articles, and only one marginally useful edit in the history, I felt pretty confident that this user is fully aware of what he's doing. I try to bend over backwards when it comes to AGF, but when there's pretty good evidence to the contrary, I don't see a need to give them extra chances to vandalize.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:06, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Ok. I remember a couple years ago bringing something to the attention of the admins, and because the user hadn't been "properly" warned with the correct sequence of templates, my notice was ignored and I was essentially told to do better next time. Maybe things have relaxed a bit since that time? Because of that experience, it makes me a little nervous to report anyone now.
 * I double checked the pages on warnings to make sure nothing had changed since I last looked, and it's still okay to start higher than 1.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:23, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and FWIW, I only gave him a level 3 on the second vandalism. It occurred before the previous warning, so I didn't see a need to escalate the level.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:36, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Huggle automatically one-ups the level number and sends out warnings after 4 (as I discovered with another user who kept vandalizing Volcano). That experience taught me that it could be easy to break WP:3RR when using Huggle, because I ended up with 3 reverts to that article almost effortlessly and then reported it to WP:AN/I without realizing it. Now I check my contributions in a regular browser after each Huggle action just to figure out exactly what Huggle did so effortlessly on my behalf. Very cool tool, but very easy to abuse without trying. Is that why you use Twinkle? TW seems to have a bit more fine-tuned control to it. Thanks for the explanation. &mdash; Will scrlt ( “Talk” ) 22:47, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I've tried Huggle, and I prefer the slower, more controlled pace of Twinkle. I see exactly what TW is doing and I get to confirm. I keep Huggle on the machine for when I want that video game type thrill, but TW is more my style. :) -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:23, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

And now our friend is back vandalizing and writing about his band again. Blocked for 31 hours.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:29, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Voice in the Wilderness "Holy Scriptures"
I am the publisher of this work. I stumbled upon this Wikipedia entry by accident while searching something else, and in checking out the history, discovered that it was a former subscriber who created the entry. However, it was full of many irrelevant links, and factual inaccuracies. So I edited it by removing the inaccurate stuff. A few days later, after tweaking a few things, posted a version that was fully accurate, but also 'brief', with external links to further information.

As I now read your policies, I see that this is NOT a proper forum for the VW-edition to be presented in. An encyclopedia is a place that presents 'facts', not opinions. And facts, by definition, are either true or false. If Wikipedia is also, so to speak, a 'blog' where everybody can willy-nilly add their two-bits worth, this is not the proper place for the VW-edition to be described by people who don't know the facts.

The person who made the original post did so without my knowledge or permission. Please advise how to delete the entry. It does not need any further "internal links". What it presents is 'facts', and needs no further modification.

If you are a moderator, I'm sure you can find my e-mail address to let me know what's what.

Thank you, Paul Becker (pfbecker) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pfbecker (talk • contribs) 23:15, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


 * As I stated on the top of this talk page, I prefer not to use email to discuss Wikipedia matters. Frankly, it's a matter of transparency, because on Wikipedia there will be a public record of the discussion.


 * Yes, if the article sticks around, it does need the work requested by the maintenance templates. (Did you read the policies I pointed you towards on your talk page? You should also check out WP:COI.) Using a variety of IP addresses to repeatedly remove those maintenance tags is not particularly productive. In fact, it's a pretty good way to get blocked from editing.


 * You, or any editor, can propose the article for deletion. However, if the issues with the article can be solved by a rewrite, it's unlikely that the article will be deleted.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:09, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting how, after I made the original corrections, no 'templates' appeared for several weeks. It was apparently "OK" that way. But then now, suddenly, the entry is not allowed to exist without them cluttering up the place. And somebody was apparently sitting there, as if 'waiting' for me to restore the entry to its completed form, and 'zap', they were inserted again. Who is 'vandalizing' the entry??? And no...I have always signed in as the 'same' userid. (Perhaps, the fact that I have several different dialup numbers to my ISP gives the appearance of a different IP??) Like I said...I am the publisher of the VW-edition. If you need to verify this, please click the external links and check out the originating website. There -are- no external "3rd party" entities that can add anything, by linking to them. The entry is complete enough AS IS. If this is not good enough for you-all (whoever "you-all" is), since I did not submit it originally, I will pursue its removal...by whatever means necessary.

Paul Becker (pfbecker) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.251.76.158 (talk) 16:16, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * As I said above, feel free to propose the article for deletion. The instructions are at Articles for deletion.


 * Please don't see conspiracies where they don't exist. If you look at the main page of Wikipedia, you will see there are over 2.8 million articles. There are no where near that number of editors who patrol pages for needed improvements. But once editors see a history of things such as removal of maintenance templates, they often put the article on their personal watchlist, something you yourself can also do.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:24, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, since the article is semi-protected right now and you've mentioned several times you would like it deleted, I've added a proposed deletion tag. If you have a problem with that, let me know and I'll remove the tag and send it to AfD. HTH.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:44, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Re: I've added a proposed deletion tag.

Thanks! Paul Becker —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pfbecker (talk • contribs) 17:33, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Re: Wolfiporia extensa revisions
Hi Fabrictramp,

Could you please explain why you reverted the Wolfiporia extensa article to the revisions by Deli nk/Nawlin Wiki? Those revisions removed a great deal of relevant information and an image, with giving a reason. I have reverted the page to its full content. I would appreciate it if some rationale were provided if you or Deli nk or Nawlin Wiki choose to eviscerate it of its content.

Respectfully,

Trappem (talk) 00:08, 14 May 2009 (UTC)trappemTrappem (talk) 00:08, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I did explain on your talk page two days ago. Did you not read the explanation? Or did you have a specific question you'd like answered.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  00:11, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi FabricTramp,

Sorry, I just now found your comments, and am trying to understand them. In my initial edits of this page back on 25-Feb, all I did was add more info, add an image, and corrected some typos. I did not delete any sources, maintenance tags, or anything else. I made the article more informative, factual, and well-written. The reversions to the Deli nk render this page factually useless, and certainly no more in conformance with wikification than my versions. I guess my specific question is what exactly am I doing that displeases the Wikipedia gods more than the fluff from Deli nk?

best,

Trappem (talk) 00:22, 14 May 2009 (UTC)trappem


 * This is the difference between the previous version and your current version. It shows clearly that you did delete the primarysources tag, the entire external links section, the entire references section, and all the categories.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  00:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate your time. I have restored the primarysources and categories tags. The reference section had nothing in it (other than separately captioned external links). Eviscerating an entire article based on these minor technical issues seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater however... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trappem (talk • contribs) 01:09, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll give you some friendly advice here: repeatedly throwing around words like evisceration when it comes to article edits verge on incivility. And eliminating entire sections dealing with references are not "minor technical issues" here.


 * I'll again encourage you to read WP:OWN and take it to heart. At least three editors felt your edits to the article were not a net improvement, so you might want to reread the article with a very critical eye and see if it could be even more "informative, factual, and well-written". HTH-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:08, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Aces
I made it to that Reno Aces game we were talking about, the park is awesome...If you ever make it out to a game, don't waste your money on decent tickets, they have standing room with general admission (or any other ticket) behind the left field wall, and is one of the best seats in the house. Also a pretty cool "mound seating" area in right field, bring a blanket and sit on the grass. Great park for a family event.--kelapstick (talk) 20:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Glad you enjoyed the park! That's what I love about the minors -- rarely a bad seat in the house without paying MLB prices.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Animas-La Plata water project
I have described the real history of the Animas-La Plata project, and, although there was discussion posted about whether it should be deleted because of a non-neutral point of view, the consensus was, "Keep it." Yet I see that the prior, "official" description of the project has been reinstated almost immediately, without reference to the discussion of my article, and without having retained a single word from my article.

Mine contains citations and quotations from United States Supreme Court and Court of Claims decisions and is 100% true and factual. The official version contains only self-serving propaganda referring back to "source documents" created by the same interests who benefit from the project, so that there's this circular back-slapping going on, and no real information communicated. That was even more true with the prior "official" version which my version replaced.

It appears that you've removed my post not because it is not factual, but because you don't LIKE the facts, which describe corrupt official acts which I have documented in the past. I can put more sources into the article, if failure to source completely is your problem with it (although you haven't said it is). I haven't done so only because I don't know how to make the link. I'll get help with that and put them up.

Can you state for me, please, in plain English, what you need me to do? Also--and no disrespect intended--please tell me what authority you have to remove my posting in its entirety and replace it with the "official" version. Is it your position that U.S. Supreme Court and Court of Claims decisions are irrelevant?

Thanks,

parsimmon —Preceding unsigned comment added by Parsimmon (talk • contribs) 21:42, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * A few corrections. I did not remove your post today, it was an [|an IP editor]. My only involvement today was to warn you again about violating Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. My only edits to the article were in March, in an attempt to save it from deletion. Yes, the article was nominated for deletion as a "Blatant opinion piece.", however it's a mistake to think that the consensus of keep was to keep your version -- every single editor who argued to keep the article mentioned that the previous version, not yours, was preferable. The version you describe as "official" was reinstated almost immediately because of this.


 * Yes, citations from court decisions are great, and could really add to the article. However, phrases like "the so-called Animas-La Plata Project", "taxpayers are being required to fork over a billion dollars", "a huge boondoggle", "nothing but a racket" and many other phrases you've used in the article are in no way neutrally worded. You also have a number of unsourced allegations about people and organizations in the article, which violates another Wikipedia policy.


 * To answer your question of "please tell me what authority you have to remove my posting in its entirety and replace it with the "official" version"... I'm not even sure where to start with that. I did not remove your posting in its entirety today (although I did in March, because I removed all the unsourced material). Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, so the IP user who reverted back to a previous version has exactly as much right to do so as you had to remove in its entirety other editors' material on April 27 and today. This is something you agree to each time you click "save page". And there is no such thing as an "official" version of a Wikipedia article. However, there are several core principles of Wikipedia which all editors must adhere to, one of which is Wikipedia has a neutral point of view, which means we strive for articles that advocate no single point of view. Sometimes this requires representing multiple points of view, presenting each point of view accurately, providing context for any given point of view, and presenting no one point of view as "the truth" or "the best view". It means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible, especially on controversial topics. When a conflict arises regarding neutrality, declare a cool-down period and tag the article as disputed, hammer out details on the talk page, and follow dispute resolution."


 * My suggestion, in plain English, is to take a few minutes to carefully read Neutral point of view, especially the section on undue weight, impartial tone, and attribution. Then discuss any proposed changes on the article's talk page, or even better, ask any of the editors who are listed as active at WikiProject Neutrality for a review of any proposed changes first. That way you can improve the article and get a more balanced perspective into it, without worrying about any bias of your own you may have missed.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:36, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Deleted userbox
I noticed the creator and suggested WP:DRV. Cheers,  Dloh  cierekim  16:10, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

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Delivered by SoxBot (talk) at 12:50, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Recreation of deleted article
Hi Fabrictramp, I see you reinstated Lucifugum? It has been deleted after AfD and then speedied a couple of times--there is nothing new under the sun. The article still relies on highly unreliable sources and is being pushed and repushed by SPAs who, by now, are getting a bit disruptive, and whose final argument usually is a. "you're trying to destroy metal" or b. "we know this scene, you don't." Please have another look at the article and its history. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 14:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi, dear Fabrictramp. It seems to me users Drmies and Blackmetalbaz simply don't like this band and try to "destroy" this article "at any cost":). But please first ask these guys to prove the notability of the following bands: Diaboli, Clandestine Blaze, Deathspell Omega, Xasthur, Black Funeral etc. If these bands are notable then Lucifugum is notable also. In other case all these articles should be nominated for deletion together with Lucifugum's article. At least it will be fair. Thank you for your help.--Black pauk1488 (talk) 15:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I've never heard this band, so I don't know if I like it or not. Blackmetalbaz has pointed out to you, no doubt, that Wikipedia has a policy that undercuts your "proposal": Other stuff exists (and Lucifugum is not a high school or a geographical feature, for instance.) Feel free to nominate any of those articles you mentioned for deletion, or, better yet, find reliable sources to prove the notability of Lucifugum. Drmies (talk) 17:16, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Everything looks like Drmies doesn't respect administrators and their decisions. Probably, he thinks he's more educated of them all. Yes, Lucifugum is not a high school but Darkthrone and for example Nokturnal Mortum are also not schools or geographical features. --Black pauk1488 (talk) 17:41, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Black pauk1488, you might want to be a bit more careful with your comments, because they are bordering on incivility towards Drmies. Also, please do not use edit summaries such as "This article has been recreated with kind permission of administrator User:Fabrictramp". It implies an approval of the article which I explicitly did not give. Since you did not address any of the issues as far as I can see, I'm strongly tempted to apply a G4 speedy deletion tag myself. (And may do so).


 * And I have applied such a tag. Also, Black pauk1488, do not move pages by copying and pasting the content. That destroys the edit history. Instead, use the move tab.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:56, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Drmies, you might look at my userfication comment at Requests for undeletion.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:50, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Since nothing has happened to the article, as far as I can tell, to increase its verifiable claims to notability (but I don't have access to the deleted version, so I can't do a point-by-point comparison), I'm afraid we're heading to AfD again sometime soon if the speedy doesn't go through. This article has a long history, with reinstatements and socks and personal attacks (not so much toward me, mind you, until now). Thanks again, Drmies (talk) 19:07, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

. I see I've stumbled into something a little bigger than a trivial speedy decline. I have a habit of doing that! <font color="Teal" face="Tahoma">HJMitchell  <font color="Navy" face= "Times New Roman">You rang?  23:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I got curious and googled it. How would this fit in with WP:RS?


 * I know squat about metal, so it might be best to ask someone who does know something about the sources. :) All I know is a recreation when I see one. Cheers!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  00:17, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Cheers, I'll ask around! It's idle amusement if nothing else! <font color="Teal" face="Tahoma">HJMitchell  <font color="Navy" face= "Times New Roman">You rang?  00:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I've found two others, so I've put hangon on the article and requested a little more time for someone to determine how useful they are. I'm reluctant to remove the speedy tag since, procedurally, it's correct and I took the last one down and edit warring is not high on my list of priorities. Just thought I'd explain! <font color="Teal" face="Tahoma">HJMitchell  <font color="Navy" face= "Times New Roman">You rang?  00:39, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Because of GFDL issues, it might be best to have the Lucifugum article deleted, do the improvements at User:Black pauk1488/Lucifugum, and then move it back to Lucifugum. Looks like Lucifugum was already deleted, so the first part is done. -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:08, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Pasig Christian Academy
oh!sorry,but I'm just editing Pasig Christian Academy because I'm a student of this school.and I Almost there for 10 years on that school.sorry, but just respect my editings...thanks --User:Jpuligan 12 4:15, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * People will respect your edits a whole lot more if you respect copyright law and consensus on what should be included in the article. Take a look at WikiProject_Schools/Article_guidelines for why the faculty list keeps getting deleted. You've also been asked several times not to include copyrighted (and non-encyclopedic) material such as the school hymn. Since you continue to add this material after being warned repeatedly, I've blocked you from editing for a week. Please take this time to read WikiProject_Schools/Article_guidelines and WP:COPYVIO and take them to heart. I'm sure you can be a valuable editor, but you need to follow the rules.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:43, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Chicken wing tackle
I'm tempted to push for deletion of this article. Thoughts? ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:52, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I really don't know enough about Australian Rules Football to know if it's notable or just a case of one event. I had thought it was made up, and was pretty shocked at the number of ghits. Would a merge somewhere (perhaps to the player?) be appropriate?-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:54, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Looking at gnews hits, this is a term that's been used for at least several years with multiple players, so merge to player doesn't make sense. Perhaps WikiProject AFL could be of help here.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:56, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay. Thanks for the response and for looking into it. I guess it just needs better sourcing. It sounds kind of cool and has a cool name, so I'm happy to have it stay around. I was sad for example when the made up one day non-sport of snowbagging ("skiing" with garbage bags on your feet) was deleted, but it didn't seem to meet our guidelines. Silly guidelines! ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

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Delivered by SoxBot (talk) at 03:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Vicci Laine Article
Hi, I have added the links to the above page. Thank you for the suggestion. I also deleted the box requesting links be added. I hope that is ok. Thanks for the help. I am new here and trying to make this the best page possible for her. Baileysmom (talk) 15:59, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Vicci Laine page
Thank you so much for the "minor formating" you did for this page. I believe so much in how this person lives her life and what she does for her community that I wanted her to have a great page and, you have helped to make it better! Thanks again for your help. Baileysmom (talk) 17:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Barnegat Fund Management - nominated for deletion?
I don't understand why you want to delete this article. It makes no false claims. Asks no one to invest. States only facts. And the article appears to be under construction. Can you lay our in English (not Wiki shorthand) where this article goes wrong so that its contributors can make proper amendments? --Djbarnes (talk) 19:27, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The deletion page has a link to the issue, which is Notability, especially Notability (organizations and companies). Also, you should take some time to read WP:COI.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  00:03, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Coppell Copperheads
Yup, spotted that and corrected it.. in all the other ones. Doh. Thanks for picking up on it :). Ironholds (talk) 16:24, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Not a problem. I'm sure you'll need to do the same for me one day. :) -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:25, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Formal Mediation for Sports Logos
As a contributor to Wikipedia_talk:Non-free_content/RFC_on_use_of_sports_team_logos, you have been included in a request for formal mediation regarding the subject at Requests for mediation/Use of Sports Logos. With your input and agreement to work through mediation, it is hoped we can achieve a lasting solution. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:39, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Matt Duke (musician) Article
Hello, I see that you protected the deleted article Matt Duke (musician) on March 9, 2009 and it can no longer be recreated. I understand there were instances of copyright related issues with the page, as well as consistent recreation of the page after a deletion discussion took place. However, most of the core issues with this page, including the fact that the page did not display any reason for notability for Matt Duke and the lack of credible sources to support the information on the page, would no longer be an issues if the page is allowed to be created again.

I am not sure what copyright issues caused the previous deletion before yours, but upon my proposed re-creation for the page, I can assure you that many credible sources will be cited (including references and features from Teen Vogue, MSN, Perez Hilton, ABC News, the Columbia City Paper and others) and copyright infringment will not be an issues in any way. Also, Matt is now signed to a notable record label, Rykodisc, which is owned by Warner Music Group, so I feel two years after the first article was created, he is now definitely a more established artist at this point and has achieved the required notability for Wikipedia. Thank you for your consideration, I do hope you decide to release the protection on this page so this artist can finally have a decent article created about him. Dr3w05 (talk) 18:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest you create a version of the page at User:Dr3w05/Matt Duke (musician), making sure that you address the issues from past deletions, especially the lack of sources and not meeting the notability requirements of WP:MUSIC. When you think it's ready, put a helpme tag on your talk page (note the curly brackets) and have an experienced editor look it over. Once it's ready for main space (and only when it's ready), put an adminhelp tag on your talk page, and any admin who comes along can move it over for you. HTH!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:25, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much, I will definitely get on this. Dr3w05 (talk) 00:11, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

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Delivered by SoxBot (talk) at 22:22, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Tyler Herron
Found anything new on this guy? If you have I'd be happy to withdraw. This may sound silly with all my AFD work but I really don't like deleting stuff. Also, can you review John Drennen? Another article on a minor league player whose speedy deletion I declined. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I may not have time today or tomorrow, but for sure by Wednesday I can take a look. Cheers!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:35, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Haven't had time to revisit Tyler Herron yet, but I did take a look at John Drennen and added a few sources there. That one's tricky (and would be controversial, so declining the speedy was definitely appropriate). On the keep side, we have first round draft pick, South Atlantic League all-star (which I didn't add to the article), and lots of sources available. On the merge to Cleveland Indians minor league players side, we have the fact that first round draft pick being notable is a minority position, the SAL is class A ball, so an all-star appearance giving notability isn't widely accepted, and other than the North County Times article, most of the press is due to the homer off Roger Clemens, which is not a unique event (Clemens gave up 363 in the majors). If this came up to AfD, I'd be in the merge camp, but I probably wouldn't bother to nominate it myself. Hope that helps a bit. :) -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  00:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Another thought: User:Hit bull, win steak is brilliant at finding baseball sources. If he's around, he might be willing to give it a look. -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  17:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I took another look at Tyler Herron and didn't find any more. :( -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  13:49, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

new entry
Hello,

I see that you have helped delete the "widwi" entry from wikipedia. Can you please explain to me why widwi should be removed or what I missed to make it qualify to stay? I don't see how it's an less relevant then the many other websites defined in wikipedia.

Thanks for your help.

- Aaron —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aprice88 (talk • contribs) 15:30, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The article didn't show how it met the requirements of Notability (web), particularly Notability (web). (You might also want to read WP:OTHERSTUFF.) HTH! -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, you should spend some time carefully reading WP:COI. Wikipedia really isn't the place to be advertising your web site.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:35, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is my site, but I am not put it up for advertising. I will review the posting rules again, but I don't see the harm in leaving up the entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aprice88 (talk • contribs) 17:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Ah
Thank you for letting me know about that, much appreciated :). Murgon (talk) 14:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

The Immaculate Mules
The band, The Immaculate Mules is in the music charts and has been broadcasted by various DJ's and VJ's throughout canada. I see no reason that you need to delete my Wiki. I have all rights to write about this band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Immaculatemules (talk • contribs) 16:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Then, as I suggested on your talk page, you need to write a version that tells us the band meets the requirements of WP:MUSIC. If you need time to make such a version, try creating it at User:Immaculatemules/The Immaculate Mules, which will give you more, but not unlimited, time to work on it. When you think it's ready, put a helpme template (note the curly brackets) on your talk page and ask an experienced editor to look it over before moving it to article space.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:48, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Searchme
Since you are one of the active admins at Special:Log/delete, I've come here to ask you userfy the contents of Searchme to User:Cunard/Article/SearchMe. I'm certain that I can source and expand the article with the large number of sources found in Google News Archive. The two other admins I asked have been unresponsive to my request, even though they were editing when I posted my requests. Please be more responsive than they. Thank you very much! Cunard (talk) 16:59, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The most recent version basically said Searchme is a search engine, with about 4 more sentences of advertising. There really isn't anything to userfy. Probably best to start from scratch on that one. HTH!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  17:01, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * What about the other four versions? Cunard (talk) 17:02, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Only version with anything is the March 13, 2008 version. I'll userfy that for you in a second. Good luck... you'll need it. :) -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  17:06, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * ✅-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  17:08, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for userfying it! Hm, SearchMe does indeed need a lot of work, but at least I don't have to fill in an infobox. By the way, if I make such requests in the future, should I do it at WP:DRV, or is it okay for me to choose a random admin who is active at Special:Log/delete? Cunard (talk) 17:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Probably the best way is to make a request at WP:REFUND (which stands for REquest For UNDeletion, but I like the unexpected acronym a lot. I also wanted to see WP:UNDEAD link there, but apparently not everyone has my warped sense of humor). WP:REFUND was created to take care of these kind of uncontroversial undeletions, to take some load off WP:DRV.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  17:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * That's a nice link to remember. I'm going to start "unkilling" this article now, so that it can be "undied". Cunard (talk) 17:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Hope you don't end up with a zombie on your hands. ;-) -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  17:23, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * My zombie is not dead anymore, but it's not 100% alive (in mainspace) yet. When you get the chance, would you restore File:Searchmewiki.jpg and then move User:Cunard/Article/SearchMe to SearchMe? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 21:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * ✅ and ✅. Impressive work!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:25, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for unleashing Frankenstein to the world. :) Cunard (talk) 22:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you should delete File:Searchmewiki.jpg since it's completely blank. Cunard (talk) 16:33, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * ✅. And thanks for inadvertently putting Young Frankenstein dialog in my head all night. ;-P -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:38, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

J. Todd Anderson
Thanks for helping out with getting the speedy deletion removed. I'll definitely work on it some more! Drinkybird (talk) 17:35, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Safari Ltd.
Why did you delete Safari Ltd. page I wasn't advertising but stating information on my company. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aligraph (talk • contribs) 18:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Phrases like "was created to provide superior, innovative toys" and "unparalleled accuracy and uncompromising detail" are not the type of language you'd see in a neutrally worded, unbiased encyclopedia article. And since you're admitting that this is your company, spend some time carefully reading WP:COI -- writing articles about yourself or your company is strongly discouraged, precisely because of the difficulty of writing in a neutral, unbiased fashion.


 * If your company is truly notable, someone not connected with your company will eventually write an article on it. If you just want to let people know facts about your company, your own website is the place to do it.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I understand your response and thank you. so if someone were to write about our company in a neutral an unbiased fashion this will be accepted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aligraph (talk • contribs) 19:30, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * That's one requirement, but not the only one. The company also has to meet the requirements at Notability (organizations and companies).-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  19:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

buddy
why u delete DOnE aT tWo (talk) 22:08, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If you read the deletion notice on your talk page, you'd already know the answer: "because the page appears to have no meaningful content". -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * u unpatriotic?????? Do you care about deception in our government?????? It's a theory on 9/11, it IS meaningful! DOnE aT tWo (talk) 22:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, please. "nevar 4get lol" is hardly encyclopedic, and the subject is already covered at 9/11_conspiracy_theories.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Crixxx
Hey Fabrictramp, I have unblocked User:Crixxx with a warning that any further ownership of articles will result in a bigger block. If you think I've made a mistake, let me know. :) \ Backslash Forwardslash / {talk} 02:46, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem. There's been a long term pattern here so I'm not hopeful, but we'll see how it goes. :) -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:22, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the deletion of Barack Obama administration controversies
If you are going to delete Barack Obama administration controversies then why is there a whole category for George W. Bush administration controversies? Danvers (talk) 21:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)Danvers


 * I didn't have a thing to do with the previous deletions (only added the deletion sorting to the AfD discussion). But thanks for inadvertently alerting me to delete your inappropriate rant in article space.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  21:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Shameless thankspam


FlyingToaster Barnstar Hello Fabrictramp! Thank you so much for your support in my  recent RfA , which passed with a tally of 126 / 32 / 5. I am truly humbled by the trust you placed in me, and will endeavor to live up to that trust.  Flying Toaster 
 * Putting in a useless comment to fool the bot into archiving.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  17:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Wisconsin Circuit Court
I came across wikilinks involving articles that mentioned the Wisconsin Circuit Court redlinks that I changed to bluelinks.One of the changes I made to reflect this was the article about Senator Joe McCarthy who was a Wisconsin circuit court judge before he was elected to the US Senator. I though the changes I made were enough to removed the orphan tag.My apologies for any misunderstandings.Thank you-RFD (talk) 17:34, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, I see now. It wasn't an orphan tag you removed, but a deadend tag. That tag means there's no outgoing bluelinks in that particular article.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for the comment. Let me look at the article and see what I can do-Thank you-RFD (talk) 18:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay- I look at the article and need some wikifying. I limit this to proper names like the counties, etc. In looking at the article I think an editor who is a lawyer will have to edit the article and provide the citations.Many thanks-RFD (talk) 18:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Adrienne Papp
There is a comment at the top of Adrienne Papp's page "This biographical article is written like a résumé. Please help improve it by revising it to be neutral and encyclopedic. (May 2009)". It has since been edited twice to comply with the comment, yet the comment still remains. Can you help me or suggest what more can be done so that this comment can be removed?

Thank you! --Cheryledbernard (talk) 17:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Help request (and answer) moved over to the users talk page. Fabrictramp, sorry for not spotting that it wasn't the users talk page initially; hence I answered here first, but have now moved my answer. Cheers,  Chzz  ►  17:41, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No problem -- I was formulating a reply, but yours is better than mine. :)-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  17:43, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * user:chzz/help  Chzz  ►  18:08, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Coolness! I'll add a link to this at User:Fabrictramp/Useful tags and links. -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  19:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Claudia Meyer (erased page by you)
Hello, Would you please let me know what makes you eligible to erase the Claudia Meyer page. Mrs Meyer is a Swiss contemporary exhibiting in numeral art galleries in Europe the USA and France. There was numerous website referenced on her wikepedia page which justified and attested of her existence. All you had to do is visit and contact the art galleries websites if you wanted to verified the accurency of the posted informations. Furthermore. A google search would have help you even more.

Who are you? Can you please clarify. I am Mrs Meyer agent and partner in life you can contact me avia the official website or visit the Artist website at www.claudiameyer.com

DO NOT erase her page again or I will contact Wikipedia for a formal complain.

Thank You Mr Meyer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.225.121.145 (talk) 22:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * While I do have the authority to delete pages that don't meet Wikipedia's guidelines (see WP:ADMIN), I did not erase the Claudia Meyer page nor did I make a single edit to the page. That page was deleted by Spartaz as the result of the discussion at Articles for deletion/Claudia Meyer. I did not express any opinion in that discussion -- I simply listed it on two lists that track deletion discussions for those who are interested in following them.-- Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  23:13, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Serious newbie
hi,I've been contributing to the Wikipedia entry for AATCC (American Association of Textile Chemists and Colorists)and need some guidance to help make the entry more neutral and wiki-like, being a complete newbie at this. Any help (and yes a little hand holding) would be appreciated! Dyewebber (talk) 15:23, 11 June 2009 (UTC) June 11, 2009
 * Phrases like "serving textile professionals worldwide since 1921" are very typical of press releases and advertisements, not encyclopedia articles. In fact, it's extremely close to a line in the first paragraph of [www.aatcc.org/media/pr/2009/2008_Chapin_Award_Winner.pdf one of their press releases]. The whole first paragraph (and other parts of the article) verges on a copyright violation of their website, which is always a red flag. One suggestion might be (and this is just a suggestion -- I'm not the best article prose writer in the world *grin*):


 * The American Association of Textile Chemists and Colorists (AATCC) is a not-for-profit association of textile professionals, located in Research Triangle Park, North Carolina. The association was founded in 1921 and has members in over 60 countries around the world. The association has developed standard methods of testing fabric and fibers, and new methods are published each year in the AATCC Technical Manual.


 * This gives a quick overview of what the association is and why it might be notable (ultimately, reliable independent sources need to be added to the article to show notability), without using language typical of press releases.


 * The link to their website should get taken out of the first paragraph, and only be used as a reference or in the external links section of the article. Try to find some other sources that talk about the association as more than a passing mention (again, not press releases).


 * So a word about copyright. Wikipedia takes copyright issues very seriously -- all it takes is one volunteer adding copyrighted material to get the Wikimedia Foundation involved in a lawsuit. However, if the AATCC gives permission to use the material, we run into advertising issues. The best solution is to rewrite the article in your own words, using more than just the association's website as a source. Yes, it can be a daunting task, but once you get it down there's a lot of personal satisfaction. :)


 * Guide_to_improving_articles and WP:FIRST have some good suggestions on how to proceed. HTH!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:11, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Jhoeni Darren Is Real
Jhoeni Darren Is Real —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.212.105.252 (talk • contribs)
 * No one said he isn't real. Just that no one can find a shred of proof that he's a "multimedia superstar". Add some proof that he meets the requirements of WP:Notability, and I myself will argue to keep the article.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:01, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Issues with Bonnie_Jo_Campbell Page
Hello,

I've noticed that you added issues to the page that I am working on. First, thanks for taking the time to provide input, it is appreciated.

I've modified it to comply to the guidelines as best as I can. Please advise if issues remain. Nancygarrity (talk) 19:23, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The external links issue still remains. Check out EL for the problems there, especially #10 and 11. Also check out WP:MOS, especially MOS and MOS. And quick look at her blog shows that WP:COI would be a good read. HTH -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  21:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

World Wiffleball League
I apologize if my rather hasty posting of a commissioner seemed as if it were done under false pretenses. When writing the article, the commissioner mentioned was not yet official, so I was hesitant to post it until the final agreements were made. I believe I stated this in my article--that the position held by Jameson S. Arnold was tentative. This league, I can assure you is legitimate, we just need to work out a few kinks in our organization. Again, I made no attempt to hide this in the article and was pressured by the prompting issued for me to mention a commissioner. I will obviously fulfill any requirements you want in order to prove that the contents of my article are not mere figments of my imagination.

Thank you for understanding, Eatierney92 (talk) 00:51, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * First you need to prove to Google that the WWL is not a figment of your imagination. Even my pet bird gets more hits than that.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  12:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Um ok thanks. The website is almost up and ready. Will that help? And, if so, should I just post here again to get you to check it out and verify it again? Eatierney92 (talk) 16:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Spend some time reading WP:Notability. Making your own website isn't going to be enough.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:24, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If the local paper does a long-anticipated spot on us, would that, along with establishing our website, makes us notable enough for a Wikipedia page? Eatierney92 (talk) 03:24, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably not. In most deletion discussions, features by a local paper aren't seen as enough -- most local papers, including the one in my town, will do a feature on almost anything local because they figure all the relatives of the people involved will buy papers. (My personal rule of thumb is that I'm not notable, nor is my business. So the coverage needs to be more than what I've received, and my local paper has done a couple of features on me.) National coverage in at least two sources would probably be the minimum to survive a deletion discussion. WP:Notability has a lot more detail on what's needed. HTH.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  13:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure that we're not currently in a position to gain NATIONAL attention. We are a regional organization that is steadily growing, and, as a part of our attempts to spread this program even further, we are trying to establish a name for ourselves on a site that is easily accessed and informative (hence me attempting to establish a Wikipedia page).  The communities that we play significant part in are notable enough to be on Wikipedia, so I guess I don't understand why we're not considered legitimate enough Eatierney92 (talk) 01:13, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As I suggested before, spend some time reading WP:Notability. From Notability (organizations and companies): "Evidence of attention by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. On the other hand, attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability." Also,
 * "Organizations are usually notable if they meet both of the following standards:"


 * "1. The scope of their activities is national or international in scale."
 * "2. Information about the organization and its activities can be verified by third-party, independent, reliable sources. (In other words, they must satisfy the primary criterion for all organizations as described above.)"


 * In a nutshell, Wikipedia is not the vehicle for you to advertise your group. There are plenty of other methods for you to do so; your time will be better spent on those methods.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:01, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * How long do I have until the article I already wrote is inacessible or impossible to retrive? Eatierney92 (talk) 17:44, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * There's no set time, mainly because a software or server issue could make deleted pages disappear permanently. Currently, deleted pages several years old are still accessible to admins. See DELETE. Seems like you'd be able to easily recreate the entire article from the sources you used to write it, though.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:57, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Cayuga
I have removed the prod tag from Cayuga Wildcat Basketball, which you proposed for deletion. I'm leaving this message here to notify you about it. If you still think the article should be deleted, please don't add the prod template back to the article. Instead, feel free to list it at Articles for deletion. Thanks! Eldumpo (talk) 20:07, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Cheers, I think that's better for now, although it's not a strong keep. I realised the school article didn't exist but was just picking up on the historical nature of the write-ups, thus suggesting a degree of notability (assuming good faith that most of the text is factually correct!) Eldumpo (talk) 07:52, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It might be factually correct, but it's a copyvio of this. (Go about 1/4 of the way down). I've removed the offending material.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:13, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Good to find that page, I've added it as a reference to the article. Eldumpo (talk) 22:30, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

re:Illinois high school boys basketball championship
Hellooooo Fabrictramp! On April 5, you posted a boilerplate on this article citing that it had multiple issues (which I completely agree existed). I have recently removed this article after it received upgrades, which I believe addresses the issues you cited. I don't like to remove tags like that without notifying the original poster, and give them a chance to repost it, if they still think it is warranted. You need not respond, but I at least wanted to alert you, and give you an opportunity to act, should you find it warranted. LonelyBeacon (talk) 16:21, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Impressive work! -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  19:05, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

101 Squadron (Portugal)
I've proposed 101 Squadron (Portugal), an article you've edited, but didn't create, for deletion because it's an unwikified stub that doesn't state the nobility of 101 Squadron. --I dream of horses (talk) 14:06, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hardly necessary to notify everyone who ever added a maintenance tag about a prod... -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:30, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks.
Thanks. You have several nice articles.

NinjaDomain —Preceding unsigned comment added by NinjaDomain (talk • contribs) 20:18, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Take a read through WP:SPAM before you make any more edits or new articles promoting your web sites.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  21:11, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

== Wikipedia Signpost <span style="color:#666; font-variant: small-caps; font-size:80%; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">: 15 June 2009 ==


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World ice arena hangzhou
Quick question; when you put various tags on an article like this, does that mean you'd prefer that it not be speedied, or are you leaving that up to others? (Watchlisting) - Dank (push to talk) 03:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * When I'm doing DEP tagging with AWB, all it means is that I didn't see anything so glaringly obvious that I wanted to tag it for speedy/prod/AfD myself, but I did want to note the issues with the article. No objection to anyone else coming along and doing a speedy/prod/AfD.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:55, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks much. There was major COI on this one, I deleted it. - Dank (push to talk) 14:58, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Hasan (artist)
I restored the page. You may delete at the conclusion of your review if you believe that's warranted. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:51, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Ichiro
I appreciate the remark on the Ichiro article in that I forgot to provide the source. However, you're mistaken if you think the edit was intentionally libelous on my part. It's a fairly well known fact. Not to sound amateur, but I've witnessed Ichiro avoiding tags around the bases because of his phobia. Just to clear that up.--68.44.243.157 (talk) 00:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm impressed that you can know what's going on in someone's head just from watching them and can eliminate any other possible explanation. Still, Wikipedia does require independent, reliable sources, and your personal conclusion isn't enough to avoid defamation issues. However, since this "fact" is so well-known, you'll have no trouble at all finding multiple reliable sources to back it up.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  13:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Dimethyl ether (data page)
Hi there

You don't need to tag pages with (data page) in the article titles, because they are supplementary to the main page. In this case, dimethyl ether. Hope this helps. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 02:12, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, these data page type "articles" show up on all the maintenance lists. Until people figure out some solution to that, they'll get tagged again and again (in part because there's also no standard that I can see for naming these things.) Sounds like WikiProject Chemistry needs to figure out a way to do these pages so they don't show up in the dead end, uncat, and other frequently regenerated maintenance lists.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  13:21, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Countdown to 100k
Congratulations (early) to an amazing editor and admin! Let's start the countdown to 100k edits for Fabrictramp! Based on your editing history I am guessing you will roll the odometer on/around 9PM EST on June 14th. Anyone else want to join the pool? <span style="padding:2px;background: #cccccc; color: #0000cc; BORDER-RIGHT: #6699cc 3px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #6699cc 3px solid;"> 7   talk   01:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I will gladly accept any and all bribes to fix the outcome of the betting pool. I'm not a fan of old-time baseball for nothing. Bribes are non-refundable, even if you lose the pool. -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  12:26, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * What time is <span title="No more bets (French thing)">#|Rien ne va plus ? I'd like to go for midnight UK time (which is UTC+1), on 18th June, pls. You know that you must make your 100,000th edit naked, right?  Chzz  ►  17:59, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Edit naked? I thought there were rules about not frightening children and horses. ;-P If my 100K edit is while I'm at work, it could be a bit problematic.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  13:11, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Chzz must have paid up... only like 100 edits today. ;)   <span style="padding:2px;background: #cccccc; color: #0000cc; BORDER-RIGHT: #6699cc 3px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #6699cc 3px solid;">  7   talk   03:31, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Well I certainly didn't get the bribe yet. I'm thinking a little more subtle fixing is going on here -- making sure RL rose up and bit me in the hindquarters, just so I wouldn't have time to edit. Hmpf.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  13:08, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Only 88 to go!
I think the recent server performance must be slowing you down. <span style="padding:2px;background: #cccccc; color: #0000cc; BORDER-RIGHT: #6699cc 3px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #6699cc 3px solid;"> 7   talk   22:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Nah, it's that real life crap again. And the whole making a living nonsense. *sigh* -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Well done!

<span style="padding:2px;background: #cccccc; color: #0000cc; BORDER-RIGHT: #6699cc 3px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #6699cc 3px solid;"> 7   talk


 * Thank you! To celebrate, I created John Churry as #100K.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:30, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Gena Knox
Hi Fabrictramp, I appreciate you helping me with comments on the Gena Knox page. I have tried to edit the page so that I have resolved the issues you brought up, could you let me know if there are further suggestions you have? Thanks. YCmedia (talk) 15:04, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've removed the wikify and deadend tags. However, Wikipedia does strongly discourage you from editing pages where you have a conflict of interest. -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:16, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, appreciate the feedback. Are there parts of the bio that don't seem neutral?YCmedia (talk) 15:21, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The only thing I see that stands out right now is duplicating the use of her own sites both as sources and external links -- it has the air of being promotional. And even if everything is completely neutral, I'd still advise against it because people will see the conflict and wonder if bias is there even when it isn't.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:26, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks for the help. I changed the book link to Amazon and removed the link to Fire&Flavor as a reference and added an additional national magazine as a reference.  What needs to happen in order to have the page not considered as having an issue?YCmedia (talk) 15:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Pretty much as long as you continue to edit it, the COI tag needs to remain.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:44, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks. I have no more edits to the page (only recent edits I made were to try to conform to wikipedia standards). At what point does the COI tag get removed?  Appreciate your explaining to me, new to this.  YCmedia (talk) 15:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll remove it myself if you'll give me your word on two things: that you won't edit the article except to fix factual errors, and that you won't recruit anyone who is associated with Gena to edit the article for you.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:12, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent, you have my word. Thanks again for all your help.YCmedia (talk) 16:33, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:34, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi again - would I be able to add a photo to the entry, or is that not proper? Thanks!YCmedia (talk) 16:07, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that would be fine. Images trip a lot of people, so be sure to read MOS:IMAGE and Image use policy before you start.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  00:47, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Great, thanks!YCmedia (talk) 15:51, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

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Acoustic Horn
Hello Fabrictramp, Thank you for your recent feedback about the new acoustic horn page. I can assure you that the GE owns the copyright for that information and I have approval from our legal department to add it to the Wiki. Would it help if I had a letter from our lawyer or something or maybe I can send you more information about me and the role I have within GE? We strongly believe that this page would be a great resource for users looking for information about acoustic horns. Also, I wanted to make sure I selected information that was non-branded and void of promotion.
 * Donating copyrighted materials, especially Donating_copyrighted_materials, has all the instructions on how to give permission to reuse the material. HTH!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  19:04, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

User: Smellypits
You blocked this user for 31 hours for abusive A7 articles. Smellypits is back. I have just posted a CSD A7 author notification for a similar new article. Just thought I'd give you a heads up. Capitalismojo (talk) 02:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Request for mediation not accepted
This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to perform case management. If you have questions about this bot, please contact the Mediation Committee directly.

victor di suvero
Dear Fabrictramp,

thank you for your help with the new article about victor di suvero.

Victor did not place this article himself. I am a graphic designer who has worked on websites for victor and I placed the article about him on wikipedia.

I did put this information on the talk page after receiving the warnings about posting an article about yourself- but it must not have been read.

Please help me!! I am very concerned that the article about Victor will be taken off unecessarily... because I used victors name to sign in?? I'm not sure why but I should have used my name: eabeyta

Please let me know what I can do to ensure that the article remains on wiki. I would greatly appreciate it.

I have also tried to give plenty of references to articles about victor. He is Mark di Suvero's brother. Should I make reference to that as well. Mark is a sculptor who has had an article on wiki for quite awhile.

thank you for your help in advance. eabeyta Vdisuvero (talk) 23:39, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * There are a multitude of problems that you've brought up here; hopefully I'll be able to cover each one.


 * First, since you say you're not Victor, I've removed the autobiography tag from the article. However, since you are someone he has hired in the past, I've place a coi tag on the article. Take a few minutes to read WP:COI carefully -- you'll see that Wikipedia strongly discourages you from editing this article.


 * The conflict of interest issue ties into a related issue, that of copyright violation. Much of the article is a direct copy of this site, and was also on victordisuvero.com before that was taken down. Either way, it needs to be rewritten ASAP, because it's either a copyright violation] or an advertisement. Given that http://wecametosantafe.com has a link to the Wikipedia article, I'm going to assume the latter, however I may not have time this morning to deal with it personally and I may have to report it at [[Wikipedia:Copyright problems for someone else to look at.


 * As to the relationship to Mark di Suvero, while it might be worth a sentence in the article (assuming there are references available), that's about the most that should be mentioned. Mark's notability doesn't affect Victor's at all as far as Wikipedia goes.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

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AATCC wikipedia edit
Hi, I wrote you a note about editing the AATCC wikipedia article June 11, which you kindly replied to. I wikifying it, added third party references, and making it more neutral. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks! Dyewebber (talk) 18:55, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Licensing update reminder
Hi. :) I'm investigating William N. Ryerson, which DumbBot listed at CP, and I see that you removed a copyright tag from it on 27 June 2009 because the evident source is released under GFDL. Coincidentally, I just posted about this yesterday on AN and WT:CSD to point out to admins who might not be aware that we can no longer accept material that is licensed under GFDL unless it is also under a license compatible with CC-By-SA. (The conversation about it at AN is way more interesting than the one at CSD; until it disappears it's (here). Obviously, there are a number of admins who don't realize that this has changed, so please help spread the word. In this particular case, I'm pretty sure that the apparent source is just a Wikimirror anyway of an earlier article that was deleted for infringing on. I'm off to figure out if it needs to be put through the CP queue again or speedied. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:42, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads up. I hadn't known it at the time, but I'd seen the notice since then.


 * The Wiki mirror idea is a good one, but the dates don't work out. The earlier Wikipedia article was made in March of 2009 while the "mirror" was last edited in 2008.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:21, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Interesting! I wonder where they got it? The official source would seem to be the first publisher. :) Just out of curiosity, I'll run a wayback on them to see where they date to. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:23, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No wayback on the official page. I'm going to chalk that one up as a mystery and move on. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:36, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Sometimes that's all you can do. :)-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:42, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Duration of Copyright (UK)- Possible Copyvio
Thanks for visiting the page I created. It will be easier for you to judge whether this is a copyvio if I give a few words of guidance. To my mind, all we have in common is that we have both chosen to represent the information in visual form, and both chosen to use the correct legal jargon. To my mind, Tim is the acknowledged expert, and any diagram must lead the editor to the identical conclusion. Tims representation is flawed because it does not attempt to stick to BS flowchart convention. My diagram is limited by Wikimedia not supporting the use of a background image in table cells, and the need for a high resolution monitor to display the image correctly.
 * All the information was taken from the one page that I cited, but references back to other pages that were less clear.
 * I found the route through his diagram to be very woolly.
 * I recast the logic, in a way that was easier to be followed by someone with CS training. Original work.
 * I recast the work to distinguish between questions, and statements by using different symbols.  Original work.
 * I recast the rendereing of the diagram so all nos go down and all yeses go across.  Original work.
 * I recast the logic, so each blue shaded question box had one point of entry, two points of exit, and each red outlined output boxes had a single point of entry. Compare with Tim Padfields output boxes that breach this rule.  Original work.
 * I used the same legalese as Tim Padfield as (this as matter of fact) is the language to use matter of fact
 * I added the advise Not on Commons and the correct Wiki copyright tags to all red outlined output boxes.  Original work.

After having read all the points above, could you let me know if I have missed something obvious and any point of the page does contain a copyvio, or what was the sticking point that caused you to suspect that any part of the page was dubious so we can tag that area for future users --ClemRutter (talk) 20:53, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * As I said in my message to you, I'm certainly not an expert on copyright violations, but it definitely seems like the changes are superficial. I do know that things like changing a symbol or a color aren't enough to avoid copyvio. Perhaps the best course would be to post at Wikipedia talk:Copyright problems -- feel free to link to this conversation to save on retyping.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:16, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * That is a rather quick response. I have done as you requested. But if you are no expert would you like to explain what you find superficial? I took time to explain 5 major area of original work- I have pointed out that we are both using legalese- that is fact which cannot be copyrighted. I asked you point out what you interpret to be a copyvio. If you can explain the problem, I can point you to the policy- or the case law, but please do research my responses before continuing with this time waster. If you can't do that- go back to the list I have provided and explain where your reference is to suggest that my logic is wrong, but if you can't justify your tag- would you please remove it. Best wishes Clem. --ClemRutter (talk) 23:46, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Let's back up just a bit here. My reply was more than two hours after your reply here. And remember, I had already looked at the article when I placed the tag. How on earth is that a "rather quick response"? If you reply to nothing else, I'd like a response to this one.


 * Since you seem to want a point-by-point discussion, here we go:


 * "All the information was taken from the one page that I cited, but references back to other pages that were less clear." No problem here.


 * "I found the route through his diagram to be very woolly." Nothing to do with copyvio issues.


 * "I recast the logic, in a way that was easier to be followed by someone with CS training." Frankly, I'm not sure what you mean here. They are both flow charts, with the same questions, same flow, and same logic.


 * "I recast the work to distinguish between questions, and statements by using different symbols." To me, the use of different symbols is superficial, as I said above.


 * "I recast the rendereing of the diagram so all nos go down and all yeses go across" Again, to me this is a superficial change.


 * "I recast the logic, so each blue shaded question box had one point of entry, two points of exit, and each red outlined output boxes had a single point of entry." Again, superficial.


 * "I used the same legalese as Tim Padfield as (this as matter of fact) is the language to use" I think we're in agreement here. But, of course, if this was presented in encyclopedic prose instead of a chart with no intro, you would be quoting and referencing each piece of legalese back to the original legal document, and using your own words inbetween, making it fair use.


 * "I added the advise Not on Commons and the correct Wiki copyright tags to all red outlined output boxes". This is where we get into a gray area. My understanding is that small additions like this aren't enough. But it's not clear-cut, so I listed it at Copyright problems rather than speedying it.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  00:29, 4 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Good morning; thanks for the clarification. Lets get down to business. I haven't referred to this page since I wrote it, having moved on into another Wiki area, but it is useful to examine the concepts.
 * "I recast the logic, in a way that was easier to be followed by someone with CS training." Frankly, I'm not sure what you mean here. They are both flow charts, with the same questions, same flow, and same logic. Technically, Tims work is not a flow chart as it does not obey the fundamental rules. He is attempting to do a Process Flowchart-using the constraints of a Wordprocessing system, without distinguishing between process and decision. We should test whether correcting that is an act of creation. In colloquial language they are flowcharts.
 * Same question: but they are a matter of legal fact, so we can't copyvio by using them. We should test if this is correct.
 * Same flow: the test is simply the number of statement boxes (outputs). Tim uses 8-(artistic choice) I use 12. When he made his representation he chose to break the flowchart convention to restrict the number of output boxes to 8 so they would fit on the page. With the same information, I chose to adhere to the flowchart convention, and place my statement boxes at the end of each logical flow- that to me is sufficient  Original work. If the flow were the same I would agree with you. We should test whether adhering to the convention is an act of creation.
 * Same logic: (two intrepretations on word logic) 1. Yes, this is a different rendering of legal logic. 2: No. The fact that the flow is different, means the flowchart logic is different
 * "I recast the work to distinguish between questions, and statements by using different symbols." To me, the use of different symbols is superficial, as I said above. Using a different stylistic convention for a symbol is a clear no no. What I have done is to differentiate the meaning implied by a box and separated out questions from statements, then rendered them in a form that is as close the BS4058:1973 and BS6224:1982 as is possible within the limitations of Wikimedias table rendering.
 * "I recast the rendereing of the diagram so all nos go down and all yeses go across" Again, to me this is a superficial change.
 * If the diagram remained the same, but portrait rather than landscape, a reflection or rotation- I would agree. In that it give a fundamentally different shape, I can't see that superficial is right. The fact that I, humble user can now actually navigate through the diagram and consistently get the same result, (which is why I started to re-render it) is a major act of creation! We should test whether this is an act of creation.
 * "I recast the logic, so each blue shaded question box had one point of entry, two points of exit, and each red outlined output boxes had a single point of entry." Again, superficial. No: fundamental. A statement box can only ever have one point of entry. Each function has a separate symbol. Correcting Tims mistakes (design choices) creates  Original work.. You are absolutly right that changing the bgcolor or shape of a symbol would not be sufficient, but I have done far more than that. We should test whether correcting that is an act of creation.


 * I do hope, that demonstrates why I was requesting a longer response. I would like to say that when I was drawing up the flowchart that I had ploughed a different way though some of the questions. I am sure I did, though I can't find it now and what it was, and whether I reverted it I just can't remember. Anyway the photographs I was trying to upload failed all the tests- and have to be used as Fair Use. Still, I am going to put on some coffee and you are welcome to join me.--ClemRutter (talk) 09:43, 4 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Clemrutter - I was asked to review this and this is certainly not a clear-cut case, but here's my opinion. The derivative diagram by you exactly duplicates the structure of the original diagram, which is not dictated by the laws that it claims to represent but is a creative contribution of the original author, Tim Padfield. Although the changes are probably substantial enough to earn a copyright of their own, I don't think they're substantial enough to discount the contribution of the original author.
 * The best solution that I can see is that someone can create their own diagram based directly on the underlying law, or prose summaries of those laws, without consulting Padfield's diagram. The fact that such a diagram would almost certainly differ in structure highlights the issue here. Dcoetzee 20:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Supposed vandalism of Beavis and Butthead
Hello, you sent me a message claiming that I vandalized the Wiki of "Beavis and Butthead". However, I did not do so and I have never even been on the page before. I'm not sure if it was an IP error or what, but no one using this computer has ever been on that page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.178.0.133 (talk) 17:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * This is the edit back in February that triggered the message. Someone with that IP definitely scrawled on the page, but as it says in the box at the bottom of your IP's talk page "Some IP addresses change periodically, and may be shared by several users." If you didn't do it, don't worry about it, but getting an account and logging in will prevent you from getting messages not meant for you. HTH!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:36, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

reference for anjarakandy
thank you for your coments on my new project i had added a new page for anjarakandy and working on it while time permits, your suggessions are welcome and i might need help in some area too. regards AG — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raamah (talk • contribs) 04:47, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * There are a lot of very helpful links in the welcome message I left for you. Also, Writing better articles has some really great suggestions. HTH!


 * Also, when you leave a comment on a talk page, be sure to sign it by typing ~ at the end, or by pressing the button above the edit box that looks like a squiggle (it's supposed to be a portion of a signature. -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:19, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Clinical utility of diagnostic tests
Hello, You put some things as 'orphan' and 'wiki'above the text 'Clinical utility of diagnostic tests'. So I categorized, added some links and added references. May I ask you to omit those mentioned things? Thanks, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michel soete (talk • contribs) 17:19, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The article is still an orphan, but you've taken care of the wikify and deadend issues, so feel free to delete those tags yourself. Thanks for the great work!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  20:33, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Question
In an AN thread about Hell in a Bucket you wrote the following aside: "(although ThaddeusB got notability and importance mixed up)." I have tried to help this editor understand our guidelines quite a bit (I've written him several log explanations, some of which are archived now), so hopefully I didn't say anything too far off base. Can you please point out exactly where I goofed for my own knowledge. I'd like to think I have a pretty good understanding of policy, so perhaps I just misspoke or was unclear; but in case I was actually wrong, I'd like to correct myself/my thinking.

Thank you, ThaddeusB (talk) 22:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Glad to explain. For example, you wrote "Only people and companies can be speedy deleted as non-notable" and "To avoid speedy deletion, an article only needs to assert notability". But if you read A7, it says "An article about a real person, an organization (e.g. band, club, company, etc., except schools), or web content that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant. This is distinct from verifiability and reliability of sources, and is a lower standard than notability."


 * I have a feeling you understand the application, but just got the words mixed up, because you went on to say "Additionally, the bar to asserting notability is pretty low. Although it varies form admin to admin, generally statements like "Bob Smith is a successful movie producer" or "The Junk Band is a popular rock band in the Phoenix area" are considered assertions of notability." These are just assertions of importance -- an assertion of notability would be something like "Movie producer Bob Smith has been the subject of several biographies and his life story will soon be a motion picture".


 * Sounds nitpicky, but with an editor like this who feels a lack of references is enough to nom for deletion, it's often important to keep the terms straight. I see a strong possibility that he can become a good editor if he works on a few issues -- thanks for taking the time to work with him. -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:26, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I understand what you are saying - I used the word "notable" which has a specific definition in Wikipedia, when I should have really used the more general word "importance." I assure you, it was a poor word choice and nothing more. :) This was at least the third time I'd tried to council him on the correct use of speedy tags, and indeed some of my advice actually resembles what you wrote pretty closely. (Feel free to see his talk archives if you like.) I certainly agree that in all but the worst cases (attack pages for example) there is no reason not to give the new page creator a chance to develop their article before it gets tagged. When I personally do NPP (which is pretty rare), I either go to the back of the queue or use the tag search to find articles that are likely to have specific problems - for example large unwikified articles are often copyvios. --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:34, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * P.S. thanks for the advice - I will definitely choose my words more carefully to avoid any possible confusion in the future. :) Also, I wrote my reply after reading the first version of what you wrote in case it wasn't clear why "resembles what you wrote" part doesn't make much sense anymore. --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:35, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * LOL -- I just knew as I rewrote it that I'd get busted. :) -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  00:08, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Hell in a Bucket
I'm still needing help with this user. Check the talk page, he's blatantly admitting that he's going entirely off his own opinion and throwing WP policy out the window. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 23:00, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * He's about to head off to the wilderness for a bit, so let's just see how he reacts after a short break to think things through. Drop me a line if there's more problems after he gets back.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:16, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

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Re: F1 2010 (video game)
I am happy to do that. I just reverted one; however, on the IP's talk page, you've said he will be blocked, which obviously I can't do. But I'm happy to post the message on other people's talk pages in the future. <font face="Impact"> Darth Newdar <font face="Impact"> (talk)  20:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * IP now blocked for 31 hours. If they've had a recent final warning and they do it again, drop me a line or report to AIV. Cheers!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Excitipanica
I would like to add a new compound word to Wikipedia...the issue is that I went through the process of adding this word and then it was automatically deleted. Can you help me work in the system? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamiewk (talk • contribs) 00:29, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm just walking out the door, but quickly I can point you to NEO and WP:FIRST. You'll need to show this word is in widespread use before it merits a Wikipedia article. HTH -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  00:32, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Samuel Carpenter
Thanks for catching the Samuel carpenter and fixing it. I was rather tired when I posted and saw all the errors. I was cleaning it up when you made the correction. When you have a chance, please review the article again? No doubt I mis-spelled and have a poor twist of words here and there. Thanks again. Jrcrin001 (talk) 01:16, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Just popping in for a second, but the cleanup looks good. Don't count on me to catch typos -- I can look straight at them and miss them altogether. :)-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  01:56, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Aye, Same here! Take care! Jrcrin001 (talk) 21:20, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks
...for fixing my Talk page. This person seems to know everything I'm editing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:76.117.1.254#Leave_Me_Alone He followed me to a new article (and opposed me there). How can somebody see other people's contributions. I can only see my own. Noloop (talk) 23:22, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * No problem. To see an editor's contributions, click on the history tab of a page they've edited (try it on this page). You'll see each edit, and after the editor, a link to their user page, their talk page, and their contributions. Go ahead and click on the contributions link for any editor listed. Another way is to go to that editor's talk page. Over on the left side, you'll see a link for "user contributions" (try it here -- click on it and you'll see my last 50 contributions. You can keep scrolling back, if you're so inclined, and see all 100,000+ contributions I've made. I can't say it will be exciting reading.) HTH!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:26, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Curt Flood
Mr flood had five children from a previous marriage to Beverly Collins according to his book "the way it is"and a "well paid slave" by Brad snyder. The article states he left the country because he was running from bankruptcy which is an opinion. Mr Flood decided to leave the country because of presure from suing MLB the media scalped this guy hounded him everywhere and marked him as an ingrateful negro who was ruining Americas past time he also had 30000 dollars cash from Bob Short owner of the Washington Senators no small sum in those days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alphawest69 (talk • contribs) 15:59, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You are more than welcome to work that in to the article, but you need to do it right. When sources contradict each other, discuss both in the article and state that they contradict each other. (Bill Veeck contains a good example of how to do that). Just removing sources and passages wholesale, especially without any edit summary, will look like vandalism and be treated as such. I'd suggest you start by proposing a change (and listing your sources, including page numbers) at Talk:Curt Flood. HTH-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:06, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

— Ω (talk) 18:24, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why is this conversation being held here? I've copied the above text to the Curt Flood Talk page for everyone else, but... what the heck? Are there ownership issues here, or something?


 * No, I would much prefer that it happen at Talk:Curt Flood. Alphawest69 came here as a result of a warning about removing content without an edit summary. So, yes please, let's have all additions to the conversation at Talk:Curt Flood-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:38, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

— Ω (talk) 18:48, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, gotcha... I was really confused there for a minute!


 * BTDT. Wanna buy the t-shirt? ;-) -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:51, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Aircraft In Miniature Limited for deletion
Tnuag (talk) 15:41, 15 July 2009 (UTC)You are listing the article on Aircraft In Miniature Limited for deletion. I created the article in order to give a signpost for people with questions on the companies we have bought and it is intended to make it similar to existing company profiles. I am intrigued by the desire to delete it - why?


 * I spelled out the reasons at Articles for deletion/Aircraft In Miniature Limited. Did you read that, or do you have questions about something in particular there?


 * But your post brings up another issue.If this is a company you have bought, you have a conflict of interest. Wikipedia strongly discourages you from making this type of article. If you want to answer questions people have about your companies, a website for the company would be the best way to do that. HTH -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for this note. Please also make a one reference if you want
Just a friendly note on Peter Eglin. I declined the speedy deletion request, but I have some concerns about copyright violations. A number of sentences in the article are directly from the source -- they really need to be rewritten in your own words, or the article may wind up being deleted. Thanks! -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  19:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The purpose of referencing is an acknowledgement of a source that is not his/her own thought but a thought of a person in a third party. However, referencing simple fact that is not readers’ discretion is also avoided as a way to acknowledge readers for their common awareness. So the act of over referencing is kind of arbitrariness in a sense as an act to undermine readers by referencing simple facts. Therefore in such cases, I do not reference simple facts. However, if you see the matter differently, please just reference it yourself. I entered a reference note under the “external link” if you need a source. Nevill Fernando (talk) 23:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll reply where I left the message, on your talk page. You might checkout the talkback template for future use. :) -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

RFA followup
Hi there. :-) Last June, you opposed my RFA on the grounds that you felt my understanding of deletion policy was a bit shaky. If you get a chance sometime, could you review my recent activities down those lines and let me know if there are still problems I need to address? Thanks! --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:26, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like you fixed the signature problem. :) I'll take a look later this afternoon and get back to you. Cheers!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  20:32, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * First off, congratulations on getting the mop. Hope you're enjoying all the cleanup on aisle 5. :) I do appreciate you asking for feedback,and feel free to ask for it any time -- I was always a bit unsure when I was a new admin who I could ask questions of. I had a sneaking suspicion that my next question would make everyone realize they'd made a huge mistake. *grin*


 * Second, take everything I say with a grain of salt. I'm pretty much a process stickler when it comes to CSD. Partly because I think it's important to follow that process because so many articles that wind up at CSD are created by new editors, and an incorrect CSD can complete turn off a well-meaning editor from Wikipedia. But at the same time, CSD is crucial to keep out pages that have no business remaining even 7 days. (You know the article type -- "Rachel is pretty and I hope she notices me", "Come buy stuff from our company", "Our band will make it big as soon as we learn to play an instrument" and the ubiquitous "I like cheese". What is it about cheese that is so fascinating to bored middle school students? LOL)


 * In summary, the deletions I looked at I agree with the end result, but I have some minor quibbles on wording and on one rationale. So, on to specifics.


 * On Winxnet, Inc, I agree with the deletion, but not the reason. Being "the first Microsoft Certified OCS Partner in Maine and was nominated for Voice Partner of the Year in 2009" would meet my definition of a good faith claim of importance (but not notability); however, the user name Wixy1 would set off the advert alarm bells in my head. G11 really would have been the way to go here, or even a prod.


 * On Newland School For Girls, the decline is correct, but the edit summary gives me a little pause. A7 doesn't apply to schools, so the edit summary would make one think you didn't know that. (Probably would have been a good idea to drop the speedy tagger a friendly note to that effect.)


 * Minor wording quibble on two others: on the edit summary where you correctly declined the speedy for Keenan Davis, you said "asserts notability". Actually, it asserts importance, which is enough to avoid speedy. Asserting notability would be something like "Three books have been written about Keenan Davis' life", ie. asserting that there's enough independent reliable sources out there to meet WP:BIO. It's good for an admin to use the terms correctly (and too many flub it up), because understanding the difference between asserting importance and notability trips up a lot of CSD taggers. If an admin can't explain it to them, who can? :) Same issue with the decline of Enoch Cronin.


 * So, nothing earth-shatteringly bad here, but a little tweaking wouldn't hurt, either. Cheers!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  21:26, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Cool, thanks for the review. :-) Re: Newland School -- yes, I realize I keep forgetting that A7 is limited. :-( With Winxnet, you're right that G11 would have been better, but I've worked for Microsoft partners -- and for Microsoft. I'm also registered as a Microsoft Partner, though not a Certified Partner like Winxnet. Hence, my definition of "claim of notability" is a little more stringent than average in this field. :-) I'll have to more carefully review the importance/notability distinction soon and develop a better approach.
 * Again, thanks for the feedback, and I appreciate the speedy response. :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Dropped by to say "apologies if I was a little terse yesterday". Hope you don't mind my butting in on your CSD master class here - we could all do with a little coaching! Cheers. Ben   Mac  Dui  19:31, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Invitation to provide further input on desysop proposal
As someone who commented either for or against proposals here, I would like to invite you to comment further on the desysop process proposal and suggest amendments before I move the proposal into projectspace for wider scrutiny and a discussion on adoption. The other ideas proposed on the page were rejected, and if you are uninterested in commenting on the desysop proposal I understand of course. Thanks! → ROUX   ₪  04:31, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅. Thanks for the heads up, and thanks for all the work you've put in to this.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:11, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Kerala Congress (Balakrishna)
You'd suggested a merger, but I checked the two pages and the content on one page is a subset of the other, so I've boldly redirected. - SpacemanSpiff Calvin&#8225;Hobbes 05:11, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Works for me. Thanks!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:53, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Tom Denton
How can I improve the article on Tom Denton. I have tried too add useful links and references to improve the article yet everytime it gets deleted. This player has more notability than a player such as Tommy Manship (also in the Cheltenham players list) due to Denton having played at a higher level of football and more likely to progress further than Tommy Manship who has only played as high as Level 6 Denton at Level 5 and will play in the league by August. If its a case of me having to wait until he appears in 1 game to add him then I will do that though still the point on Manship exists he never even managed that and makes it on here.

Just seems pointless me wasting my knowledge on Cheltenham Town F.C. only for people with less knowledge on the subject to just delete what work I have done. Makes me not want to continue with my work. I have now stopped working on other work for wikipedia that was due to go on in the next few days as its wasted here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrombo (talk • contribs) 18:57, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


 * As I suggested on your talk page, read Recreation of previously deleted pages. Also, read Articles for deletion/Tom Denton (2nd nomination) -- the main concern is that he doesn't meet the requirements of WP:ATHLETE. Also, the people who hang out at WikiProject Football can give you some clues on what might be needed.


 * If you want to take a stab at an article and you aren't confident you have clearly established notability, try writing a draft as a subpage of your user page, such as at User:Wrombo/Tom Denton. That will give you more, but not unlimited time, to work on it. (And if you'd like the deleted page restored to your subpage, let me know and I'll be happy to oblige). Once you think it's ready, put a helpme tag on your talk page and have an experienced editor look it over. Then, and only then, move it in to main space and it will have a much better chance of sticking around. HTH -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  20:07, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Dunt dunt dunt
It was taken to AfD twice in two minutes, and it's obviously a hoax! ;-) - <font face="Verdana">CobaltBlueTony™ talk 18:53, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hoaxes are specifically excluded from patent nonsense which was the criterion you used to delete it. And I'm not convinced the hoax is obvious -- it could easily be a regional usage that's not notable. The only reason it got AfD'd twice is that you deleted the article while I was writing up my AfD summary. Twinkle would have caught the AfD nom that happened two minutes prior if the article hadn't been speedied after my decline. -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  20:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It may have been nominated under <tt>g1</tt> (by User:Syrthiss, not me), but I deleted it under <tt>g3</tt> as an obvious hoax (the second deletion was to get rid of the unintentional recreation; that one should have been <tt>g6</tt>, maybe?). This is simply a case of getting our wires crossed.  It's all good. - <font face="Verdana">CobaltBlueTony™ talk 14:00, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

article Arthur Sarkissian
hi i was added a article Arthur Sarkissian and it was deleted. now it's blocked please help me to add.....!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vahansarkissian (talk • contribs) 12:51, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * See User talk:Moonriddengirl for this same matter. MLauba (talk) 13:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, MLauba - I've added some facts there.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:31, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

AATCC wikipedia edit
Sent a message July 1 about edits I made to the AATCC wikipedia page based on comments sent to me in June. Has enough work been done to remove the notices on the page? Thanks, Dyewebber (talk) 13:51, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've done some cleanup for you and removed most of the maintenance notices on American Association of Textile Chemists and Colorists. However, there still aren't any independent sources in the article that show notability -- AATCC is associated with ISO according to the article, and the standardsportal.org ref is just a directory listing.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:41, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Zorin OS deletion
Hi, ZZZChris here. Firstly about the nearly 1500 downloads, here are the links to the 32 and 64 bit downloads: 32 bit http://www.zshare.net/download/619781508aac3381/ and 64 bit http://www.zshare.net/download/620170359b344c54/. At the bottom it says how many downloads there were, currently it is 1338 so I rounded to the closest 500 and I got 1500. Unless there was an error with the counter on zshare for 21 days that is how many people downloaded it. Also on notability, Google search "Zorin OS" (including the quotation marks) and see what you get. Zorin OS is on softpedia and ibiblio.org and will soon be in the distro list on distrowatch. And finally, what is ghits and gnews anyway? If you need me to change something please tell me or change it yourself. ZZZChris (talk) 17:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Ghits is a common Wikipedia abbreviation for "google hits"; gnews is an abbreviation for "google news". Being listed on softpedia, ibiblio, or distrowatch does not show notability, as those are basically directory listings. I'd suggest you read N, which says "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article", and goes on to say what significant coverage is. If you feel that Zorin OS is in fact notable, then make your case at Articles for deletion/Zorin OS. (Because making your case here won't affect the deletion discussion in any way.) HTH!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:47, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Insite Security page deletion
I am writing to find out what else you think needs to be added to this article in order for it to remain up since similar firms such as Kroll Inc. are able to maintain an article.

We have more 3rd party references if that is what is needed. The company has been in the news quite a bit over the past few months.

I look forward to your response and thanks for any assistance you can offer in advance.

Nmilman (talk) 18:02, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I haven't had any involvement with the article since I closed the deletion discussion over a year ago. At that time, it was deleted because the consensus was there was not enough independent, reliable third party coverage of this company to show notability. As to why similar firms may have an article, see WP:OTHERSTUFF. More third party references would have been useful at that time, but apparently that's not the current issue.


 * According to the logs, the two most recent deletions were under G11: "Unambiguous advertising or promotion. Pages that exclusively promote some entity and that would need to be fundamentally rewritten to become encyclopedic." Your message indicates you have a connection with this company, so please take a few minutes to read WP:COI. Because it is almost impossible for people to write about their own company in an unbiased manner, such editing is strongly discouraged.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Is it possible that if someone besides me rewrites this article to be less encyclopedic and posts it that it will not be taken down? As I mention earlier, similar organizations are able to maintain articles.  We are just trying to make sure this is done properly. Nmilman (talk) 15:08, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It would need to be someone not at all connected with the company. So not one of your friends, colleagues, someone you recruit, etc. Then, the article would need to be written in a neutral, unbiased fashion, and show that it meets WP:Notability. -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  20:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

lukeheron
Hi - thank you for editing luke heron page. I have made some amendments and would appreciate your feedback. I have added 2 further references so far. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MyraSendak (talk • contribs) 23:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Good work so far. (You can remove the deadend template if you want). Keep up the good work! -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:32, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

At what point do the "please help improve this article" and "wiki needs more links" tags disappear? Obviously as and when I add further content to this page and others I remain under your scrutiny, but if I have (so far) dealt with your queries, I would be grateful for your removal of the tags. Again, I really appreciate your help. My plan is to add a big section on young wealthy investors and pioneers - a fascinating topic and one I think is needed on Wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MyraSendak (talk • contribs) 23:38, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The tags don't automatically disappear -- editors like yourself have to make the decision that the work has been done, and manually remove them. (Although there are projects where people review the tags, but many of those projects have months long backlogs). As I said above, the deadend tag can now be removed, so feel free to do so. Generally, the expand tag should remain until there's at least a couple of paragraphs, or about 10 total sentences. (That's just a rough guide). Perfect_stub and Writing better articles would be good guides to read. HTH! (Also, remember to sign your talk page comments. You can do that easily by pressing the button at the top of the edit box that looks like a squiggle.)-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:46, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Assumption of bad faith on edits
I was a bit taken back by your comments on WT:CSD. In particular:
 * I already had this particular editor in my sights for some other bad tags, and it looks like Xeno is stepping in to work with him (assuming the male gender from the user name). Hopefully this will get straightened out quickly.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  20:30, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

If you have had such concerns with my editing, why did you not communicate them to me earlier yourself? I have only received one bit of feedback from you on my talk page. If you look at my communications with other admins, I am always receptive to advice and criticism and listen to what they have taken the time to inform me.

My major misgiving with the discussion on this page is that there was an immediate assumption of bad faith about my edits, that I was just "trying to be the fastest one to click the delete button". If you read the notes on Xeno's talk page I thought long and hard on this one as I was on the fence regarding the notability. It was my examination of the creator's block log and talk page that motivated the final decision. You will also see that once Xeno gave me feedback I saw and admitted my error.

I regularly fix pages I go through on NPP. I always read all the references to verify they are valid, not primary sourcing and not deadlinked. If an article is on a subject that sounds notable but has no cited references, I find them and include them. None of the editors involved in the aforementioned discussion bothered to look at my edit history. In the discussion I was simply characterized as a Machiavellian vandal that had no care for established policy or guidelines.

I would recommend in the future, along with an understandable concern that you do not want to discourage new editors, that you also take the time to consider how much you may be discouraging more established editors that are putting a good deal of effort into trying to learn to improve the project as a whole. LeilaniLad (talk) 21:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry you took my comment the wrong way. However, when I approached you about a bad tag, I got absolutely no response. And since I had watch listed your talk page waiting for any response, I saw several other editors bring up concerns about tagging, again with no response. I'm glad that you are receptive to criticism, but I really couldn't tell that from your talk page. So when I came across a couple of other tags I disagreed with, I really didn't see a lot to be gained from pestering you again. (Ironically, I was trying not to discourage you, which you are now accusing me of doing. And, of course, the whole thread started because another editor felt ready to quit the project over a speedy tag you applied. So perhaps finger pointing isn't productive here.)


 * I'm also sorry that you assumed the previous paragraph of my comment was aimed at you. I can see how you could think that (because just as I can't read your mind, you can't read mine), but it was a general comment about a large number of NPPers and not you specifically. I think between assuming the first paragraph was about you and taking offense at the second paragraph, you may have come to the assumption that I didn't read your reply to Xeno on his talk page. In fact, I did, and that's what gave me hope that things were getting straightened out.


 * And lastly, I'm sorry that you felt unfairly categorized as someone who doesn't look at references and tags too quickly. Sure, in an ideal world, every editor who commented in any way would have gone back and looked at all 1000+ of your non-deleted article edits, and all 200+ of your deleted article edits, and tried to assess if in this particular case, where you tagged the article with A7 two minutes after creation for a professor with 430 hits in google scholar was a trend or a one-time brain fade. But it's not an ideal world, and I'm sure more than one editor looked at the article history, looked at the number of comments about speedies recently on your talk page, and made an assumption. (You'll find that's one reason why many Wikipedians like to keep a conversation in one place. It helps other editors get a sense of both sides of the conversation without bouncing all around. But I digress.) In that same ideal world, the original article creator wouldn't have removed the speedy tag, and instead would have taken his concerns directly to you. And in the ideal world, you would have left him a nice note on his talk page apologizing for the one time lapse that made him ready to leave the project, and the whole thread at WT:CSD would never have happened.


 * So to sum up, I will definitely take your recommendations to heart. I hope you will accord me the same courtesy, and will assume the same good faith about me that you would like assumed about you.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:33, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Will do, and I didn't assume bad faith on your part as much as just wanting to communicate the experience of the issue from my eyes. And, clumsily enoguh, I did respond to your comment, but unfortunately to RoboFish's talk page. My fault entirely for forgetting to put the comment back where it belonged. I'm sorry if I spread any angst I felt about the issue towards you. I try to remain NPOV in all actions (not simply edits) on Wikipedia and may have let my emotions slip in here. Thank you very much for your response as it did relieve some of my negativity a bit. LeilaniLad (talk) 23:06, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * So glad we could work it out. Looking forward to the fresh start. :) -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:13, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Addie Joss birthplace
I found a reference to Addie Joss's birthplace-the Wisconsin Historical Society put up a historical marker in Juneau, Wisconsin which mentioned he being born in nearby Woodland, Wisconsin. According to DeLorme Wisconsin Atlas&Gazeteer, the unincorporated community of Woodland, Wisconsin is not too far away from Juneau, Wisconsin in Dodge County, Wisconsin. This is not to be confuse with the town of Woodland, Wisconsin which is in a different county and where the confusion comes in. An article Woodland, Juneau County, Wisconsin eventually will be needed to be started. Please look at the Addie Joss article- I made the change but it can always be changed back. Also the city of Juneau, Wisconsin has an exhibit on Addie Joss. Thanks-RFD (talk) 21:08, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As long as you think the source is reliable, it works for me. I'm a little leary of the facts in 27 Men Out because of a couple of errors it makes on team names, which is why I didn't just change the birthplace to match that source. Thanks for the good work!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  21:13, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Re:Starstruck (Lady Gaga song)
That source does not specifically state that it is a single. It only lists a small majority of songs from the album of which have charted on numerous kinds issued by Billboard. Even if it was a single, there is no notable third party coverage to warranrt an individual article. The article is completely unsourced. Therefore being, speedy deletion is required. It is a true example of WP:FANCRUFT. • вяαdcяo  chat  04:47, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If the song exists, and the artists has an article, consensus has been for quite a while that redirecting to the album or artist article is the way to go, not speedy. Certainly a deletion as a hoax would be totally inappropriate, because the article title is about a song, not a single.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:20, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Happy 's Day!
For a userbox you can add to your userbox page, see User:Rlevse/Today/Happy Me Day! and my own userpage for a sample of how to use it.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:00, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Woo hoo!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  00:03, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well earned, keep up the good work.--kelapstick (talk) 14:55, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Deleted
Hi, I think it's you who's deleted "David Lee (author)" before i had a chance to develop it and put in the important factors, connections etc. If you could undelete it so i can develop it, or at least send the text and code to me to rebuild it that would be great.

For example, I've been asked to put info up about "David Lee (author)" as he's mentioned around wikipedia, with no further explanation. People are also quoting his books, but without any point of reference. For example, someone on wikipedia has been accused of writing about themselves, when in fact David Lee (author) wrote it. Confusing eh? But we need to square-the-circle.

Anyway, any help respectfully received. thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Valedied (talk • contribs) 21:24, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I've restored it to a subpage of your userpage so you can have some time to work on it. You'll find it at User:Valedied/David Lee (author). You might want to read WP:BIO as you go -- someone can be a source on Wikipedia and still not be notable themselves. HTH!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:07, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Deleted Page
Hello, can you please restore the deleted page to my account so that I may work on it? I have been working on the page for Abbotsford Community Foundation. I was encouraged to do so by the Vancouver Foundation, who also has a page. The information was very basic, and I don't know why it would offend anyone. I was working on the page and asked questions, so I was disappointed that it was deleted. There were quite a few volunteer hours there, and my first venture into wikipedia. Can I start again? Ldaschuk (talk) 23:02, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * ✅. You'll find it at User:Ldaschuk/Abbotsford Community Foundation.


 * Take another careful read of the article, and make sure you don't have a conflict of interest that's preventing you from seeing that it's written like an advert. (Phrases like "We provide funding and support to all segments and sectors of our community" just scream advert.) WP:FIRST and Writing better articles might be helpful reads, too. Looking at your contribution history, I can't see any questions that you asked, so I don't know what advice you've been given previously. Hopefully this isn't redundant. :)


 * And when you think it's ready to move back, put a helpme tag on your talk page and ask an experienced editor to look it over. Once all the fixes are made, and only then, move it back to article space. HTH!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:18, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

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Note.
Hey,

The author of the Richard O'Barry article that you deleted came to my talk page to ask why it was deleted. Maybe you can read the comment on my Talk page, then expand on my comments to the editor on his talk page. It might help him learn so he won't make the same mistake twice. Thanks!-- Gordonrox24 ''' &#124; Talk 23:39, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the heads up. I'm a bit pressed for time atm so my answer was short, but I've watchlisted the page and can answer any further questions on Friday. Cheers!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  00:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Syghe Loveture
I found nothing on Google or Google News; I'm dubious that such a person exists. 99.0.83.41 (talk) 01:09, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Which is why I deleted the article.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  01:11, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Cheers, 99.0.83.41 (talk) 01:12, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Nicole Levin
Thanks for undeleting the above page. I have made some improvements, added a review I found (there may be more) and added some more links. Would value any further input on it. Have also removed the "no third party tag" (as there is one now), not sure if the other tags are worthy of removal. Am new to Wiki contributing so still learning - input valued!

Regards Albatross555 (talk) 13:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC)Albatross555

Incorrect information on F1 2010 (video game) page.
The page is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_2010_%28video_game%29 I corrected the release date and in the features tab "All the teams, drivers, and tracks from the FIA 2009 Formula One season." to "All the teams, drivers, and tracks from the FIA 2010 Formula One season." First time I forgot to include ref. My bad. But next time I included the ref, but you reverted the info back to the incorrect one + also banned me from editing that page. I was like wtf? Did you even check my source? :( It's user created FAQ which includes all the info from that F1 game developers. The info at http://www.simracingworld.com/content/375-f1-2010-f1-2010-features/ is waaaay outdated. Vebero (talk) 19:18, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I did check the source you listed. Besides the fact that it's an unofficial FAQ in a forum, it does not say "All the teams, drivers, and tracks from the FIA 2010 Formula One season." It says some platforms will be 2009 and some will be 2010. If you had written that, I'd have happily not reverted your edit.


 * The reason I protected the page is that one or more editors (hard to tell how many when it's a stream of IPs and spa's) have been changing this without edit summaries and without citing any refs at all until your latest edit. At this point, you really need to make your case on the article's talk page and get the editors involved to agree on the facts. I'll be glad to enforce any consensus developed there, but the constant cycle of changes without edit summaries, sources or consensus has to stop. (And quite frankly, the article as it is has so little in the way of quality sources that it's practically a deletion candidate. I'd hope that the interested editors would spend a little more time working on beefing up the article and a little less on arguing over what year an unreleased game might wind up based on.)-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  20:57, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Florestan Trio
Thanks for your note about my new page Florestan Trio. I wonder if you could take a peak at it again and see if problem note #1 (ref) and #2 (links) have been addressed and could be removed. I agree that problem note #3 (expansion) is still needed. Thanks! Derekwwww (talk) 21:05, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Both the refs and links tags can be removed. Just a few pointers on the refs, though. On the first one, it's probably better to link directly to the allmusic overview. The second ref is a link to a Wikipedia mirror that duplicates the Gramophone Award article, so it's not needed. HTH!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  21:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * great points, thanks! Derekwwww (talk) 22:49, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

ok to delete
It's ok to delete the Larry French article. He did get a Supplier of the Year Award but I have no interest in writing about him. Technically, only non-notable articles are supposed to be deleted, not badly written articles that can be fixed but I don't have time to fix that article (too many others to do)User F203 (talk) 22:34, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem. I'll do an WP:IAR deletion. Cheers!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:46, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

If you delete it, put a reason that will not discourage recreation. Maybe "possibly notable article that was created by mistake, editor has no time to expand it" User F203 (talk) 22:55, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I already deleted it with G7, author requests deletion, with a note to see this conversation. That shouldn't discourage re-creation, or encourage a future deletion. HTH!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Grant & Eisenhofer P.A. Page
Hi,

I've written a new section to be added to the Grant & Eisenhofer P.A. page that gives more detailed information on the class action cases listed in the History section. Everything in the new section is cited using secondary sources (similar sources to those used in the current page). I'm hesitant to post it because of the speedy deletion nomination. Since you declined the nomination, I just wanted to know if you thought it would be safe/appropriate to post this new "Notable Cases" section.

Thank you for your help, Steph0513 (talk) 14:32, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Now the page has been moved out of the main namespace to my user subpage User:Steph0513/Grant & Eisenhofer P.A.. As per your opinion on the deletion and the amount of copy editing you believe is necessary, is this page move appropriate? I am more than happy to make any changes that are necessary to make the page the best it can be. I appreciate any assistance you can provide in this matter.

Thanks, Steph0513 (talk) 14:51, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Best to talk to the admin who moved it after I declined the speedy. I don't understand his/her reasoning, and s/he didn't consult with me or give me a courtesy heads up on it.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I have already spoken to that particular admin regarding the notability tag s/he placed on the page. Our discussion became tense and somewhat hostile after I believed his/her initial response to my comment was a personal attack. I do not think continuing a discussion with this admin will promote any progress. I'm truly just trying to contribute what I can to wikipedia, and I believe wikipedia users who are looking for information on law firms will benefit from having this page available. I'm not sure what else I can do. Thanks, Steph0513 (talk) 15:05, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Seems like you have a couple of options open to you. You can go back to User talk:Billinghurst and say "look, I'm very sorry we got off on the wrong foot. I'm a new editor, trying to make my first page, and I'm frustrated and confused about what I'm doing wrong. Is there any way we can start fresh and you can explain to me what I need to do to get this page where it needs to be?" At best, you'll get the information you want. At worst, Billinghurst will tell you to go fly a kite, and you'll look like the bigger person.


 * Option 2 is you can decide that you've burned that bridge pretty thoroughly, in which case you can place a helpme on your talk page and ask an experienced editor to give you some guidance.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:32, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I have asked for help on my talk page. Thanks! Steph0513 (talk) 15:42, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm helping him/her. We are currently on #wikipedia-en-help. You can join here or here.

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Delivered by SoxBot (talk) at 04:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Good point
Obviously my comparison of text wasn't as useful as it should have been. Reviewed it again today, agree with your initial assessment. Thx -- billinghurst (talk) 13:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

To Fabrictramp
Hi

Would you please, please send me the deleted page for Daily-Update Publishers. I did not have a copy, not suspecting that this could happen. My email address is du@dupublishers.com

I would like to rewrite the article so that it conforms to Wikipedia policy. I also promise to contribute to general editing of Wikipedia

Thanks

Cameron Russell — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.69.5.179 (talk) 20:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd rather not email it, if it's all the same to you, because then my email address is out wandering around on the internet. :) And since you're not logged in, I can't send it to a subpage of your userpage. However, since it was deleted via prod, I have no problem restoring it, and you can copy any text you'd like from there. Just be aware that anyone can come along and nominate it for deletion via AfD at any time, so I'd suggest grabbing whatever text you want quickly.


 * Also, it doesn't seem like Juliancolton answered your question about being blocked. The block notice at User talk:DUP2008 has instructions on how to get unblocked. I think a more helpful notice might have been Uw-ublock, and you could follow those instructions instead. I don't see a problem with getting unblocked if you follow one of those two sets of instructions. Hope that helps!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Re: Don Philpott
Thanks for letting me now. It does seem that he's notable enough to merit an article, but I'm concerned about the conflict of interest since Philpott himself is the sole contributor to the article. I'm not familiar enough with the subject to rewrite it, though. - X X X antiuser 23:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'm really, really, really not fond of those autobiography articles. But it's not blatant enough for G11, either. *sigh* -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  00:00, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Counter-vandalism tool for OSX?
Hey there, do you know if there are any counter-vandalism tools for Mac OS X other than WikiGuard? WikiGuard seems to be broken (won't install, older version does nothing) and I'm getting tired of reverting stuff by hand :)

Cheers - X X X antiuser 01:42, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I use twinkle with Firefox on the Mac for semi-automated reverting and warning/reporting. To find vandalism in the first place, I use Lupin's tool. IIRC, Twinkle doesn't always play nicely with Safari, but I gave up on Safari a long time ago, so no big deal to me. :) HTH! -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  13:41, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

'rational discussion'
I am sick to death of attempting cold discussion, because of two things: 1) It all gets swept away anyway. So why not get angry? As WWWAG said, the drum needs to be banged louder and louder until someone actually does something. 2) It really doesn't matter what is said or how. The vicious defence of the status quo ensures that nothing will ever get changed around here.

I try anyway. → ROUX   ₪  00:03, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Still doesn't give you a pass to take broad swipes at whole groups of people. And how things are said does matter. Both on wiki and in real life. -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  00:06, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * When it's as futile as getting admins subjected to the same standards as regular editors? No, it really does not matter. Nobody will listen anyway, and the only hope is to bang the drum loud and often until finally something is done. → ROUX   ₪  01:28, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Something was done before you banged the drum a second time. .  What were the intervening several hours of discussion all about?  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * About exactly the same issue: admins--in the second case Jehochman--getting off scot-free for behaviour that would get any regular editor blocked. Or, apparently, threatened with one. Your collection of diffs was interesting, I'll grant you that, but nowhere did I sink to the level of accusing editors of meatpuppetry and collusion--without a single substantiating diff, yet. Thing is, Jehochman is better at the Wiki-game than I am; he couched his ridiculous accusations in such a way that if someone were to squint from a great distance they might consider it reasonable. It wasn't, of course; unfounded accusations of his sort are quite explicitly considered to be personal attacks. And yet.. he gets a nicely-worded warning. Editors who get pissed off at this double standard get.. the double standard reinforced by way of threats. Interesting.
 * You see, I believe quite passionately in the aims of this project. The very idea that people from all over the world devote unpaid time--and even spend their own hard-earned money on research materials--to a project whose goal is as lofty as collating the sum total of important human knowledge. Where that falls down is in the unfortunately predictable human tendency for power and associated structures to accrete to the point of stultification. At which point someone's Law of Bureaucracy comes into play (it may have been Frank Herbert somewhere in the Dune novels): (paraphrased) "At some point every power structure reaches a tipping point whereafter more and more of its energy is devoted to retaining that power." The admin corps as a body--with exceptions--has drawn closer and closer to that point over the past 18 months or so, if indeed it hasn't already passed it. Admins frequently gloss over behaviour that would get a regular editor slapped on the wrist at the very least--hell, look at the brouhaha over Bishonen finally being taken to task for telling an editor to fuck off. Any user other than Giano, and possibly Ottava or Malleus, would have been blocked on sight. Bish? Not. It's all too Orwellian for words, some users being more equal than others, and Animal Farm is exactly where the editor-vs-admin divide is heading.
 * What the admin corps needs is a Gorbachev; the project needs wiki-glasnost and wiki-perestroika, coupled with an adamant refusal on the part of the admin corps to ever let behaviour like this slide from admins. I doubt you can honestly tell me that a newbie making the unsubstantiated allegations that Jehochman made would have escaped without at least a severe warning with a block threat immediately. What the project needs even more is accountability, and a recognition that what worked when a thousand people were here does not scale to worldwide reach and engagement.
 * But I guess that's all neither here nor there. What those hours were about was a welling up of intense frustration at an admin corps that lets behaviour from admins slip by, go past, apparently solely because they are admins. And yes, I do indict the entire admin corps for this. Whether it's conscious or not, admins are given wider latitude when it comes to unacceptable behaviour, when that latitude should be noticeably narrower than that afforded to regular editors, particularly new ones. Whether or not policy says so, it is an unavoidable fact that admins are regarded as leaders within the project, and as such they should be setting an example--not behaving poorly and having their colleagues brush it off. Jehochman is well aware that WQA serves no real function and has no real effect on user behaviour. As such, his attempt to shuffle a problem off to there is very clearly roundfiling the whole concern; sending it to die in committee, as it were. That is the proximate cause of this becoming a bigger issue, followed immediately by his incendiary allegations.
 * And he just gets a little warning, hours after the fact. You don't see this as a problem; non-admins do, and you don't seem to be giving that any weight or credibility whatsoever. Which is basically the root of the problem. → ROUX   ₪  03:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm very sorry that you feel it's necessary to lump all admins into the same pot. I hope you'll understand that every time you (or anyone else) makes sweeping statements about all admins that I will be offended by it. This really saddens me, because I know you care about the project as much as I do. And frankly, it makes it that much harder for me to do a thorough, careful, even-handed job whenever I pick up the mop when I know that my thanks for it will be to have undeserved mud slung at me. I hope you achieve your goal -- I really do, because we actually have the same aim, which is to get the bad admins out. But I feel strongly that insulting all admins will make the goal harder to achieve because everyone will stop paying attention to you and the admins who are on your side won't be motivated to help you if it only means we'll get kicked in the teeth. But still, I wish you well.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  13:56, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * And I'm sorry you feel that way. But if you want to get rid of the bad admins, why did you say nothing about Jehochman's badfaith allegations? It may be trite, but you're either part of the problem or part of the solution, and at this point every admin that does not take a hard line against administrator abuse is part of the problem. You know, I hope, that I respect you and what you do, but in this specific context there is a disconnect between what you say and what you do. → ROUX   ₪  21:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't say anything because I only skimmed through most of the drama above. I generally stay off of ANI because of all the mud flinging and whining, both by admins and non-admins. But the pictures at ANI caught my eye, I was offended by the caption on the second one, and it was followed by a general round of admin abuse from a number of parties. I was already in a mood from comments Malleus made earlier, flinging mud at all admins because of a rather stupid edit summary one admin made in reference to someone else, and that mood wasn't one where I wanted to read the previous sections. Should I have? Possibly. But I also might have been so mad that I would have said something really stupid. After all, I'm only human.


 * I was going to offer to read through the whole section and work with you about a plan to go forward. But I felt my blood pressure rising just reading the complaint -- I've seen worse directed at admins in general in the last week by multiple editors in multiple venues, yet any requests for a toning down of the abuse are met with more abuse. It's always the same few names. Perhaps they are just the few who are brave enough to speak out. Or perhaps they just like to poke people with sticks until they get a reaction. All I know is that I'm going to take a break from this place for a couple of days because they've poked me about all I can take.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how much my word means to you, but I guarantee I am not a member of the Pokes-With-Sticks tribe, though I'm sure you and I could think of at least three names that are definitely members of that group--self-admittedly so, in one case (unless my memory is faulty). I think the reason that requests to tone it down are met the way they are because admins hold all the cards in these situations. The actions of admins are what's being complained about.. and then admins say, essentially, "hush now, be good kids." Whether or not that is the intent, that's how it comes across. This is enraging, because it's yet more evidence of how many admins are simply blind to the divide. We already have to act on whatever terms admins set, and then when admins try to frame the discussion about admin abuse the way they want it--which invariably means 'under the rug'--it just becomes yet another reason to be pissed off about how so many admins act. Jehochman's laughable 'rudeness' rubric is the perfect example of this behaviour in action: it gives him licence to not only be as rude as he wishes, but to dictate precisely how people must react to it in order to get any sort of resolution out of the matter. The net effect of these requests from admins, from the point of view of those of us without admin buttons, is "I will behave exactly as I please, my colleagues will support me overtly or through inaction, and I or they will dictate how you will behave." And it's really that simple in how it comes across. If such requests were prefaced with "what that admin did was wrong, you guys are right, and this will be dealt with" it might go some distance towards ameliorating the problems in such discussions. But that virtually never happens; the regular editors get smacked down for being pissed off at uncontested admin abuse, and then get further pissed off at the smackdown. And then it very neatly becomes absolutely nothing about the admin, despite the efforts to keep bringing up the subject; editor is pissed off and makes their point in stronger terms, admin tells them to tone it down, editor gets more pissed off because the admin is paying zero attention to the actual complaint, lather rinse repeat.
 * For what it's worth to you, I am sorry that I've been a proximate cause of you needing to take a break. But I do stand unequivocally by this: you are part of the solution or part of the problem. Allowing admin abuse to pass uncommented because you're pissed off is very, very much being part of the problem. Understandable, yes, but doesn't go far in reaching the goals we share. Admins, by and large, have absolutely no conception of how their behaviour comes across to those of us who are not admins. And most of the time, that behaviour appears to consist of closing ranks and telling the peons to stop complaining. Is that how it's intended? Unarguably, in many cases. In others it is merely spillover from that attitude. There's the rub, as someone once said. I'd like to work with you; I understand if you wouldn't. → ROUX   ₪  23:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm back, with a clearer head. Fresh air and lunch with old friends always does one good.


 * In no way do I lump you in with the pokes-with-sticks crowd. Hopefully you won't change your mind about working together after you read this.


 * I see the problem of abusive admins as part of the larger one of respect Wikipedians have (or don't have) for each other. We like to throw around things like AGF and CIVIL, but those are just pale reflections of the necessity of seeing the person on the other end of the internet connection as an equal human being with feelings. The great thing about Wikipedia is that we can't see that other person's age, race, gender, physical disabilities, or sexual orientation unless they choose to reveal it, but the bad thing is it's too easy to see that person as just a bunch of letters on a screen. Respect for each other means the difference between building the greatest encyclopedia in the world and the greatest insane asylum.


 * So why this seeming diversion from the issue of abusive admins? Because to me any victory that involves renouncing respect for the basic humanity of others is a pyrrhic victory, if that. If the means has to be one of posting joke images implying sexual assault, I can't be a part of it. (Yes, I know you didn't post the image.) If the means is one of slinging mud at large groups of editors, I can't be a part of that. But if it involves sitting down and working out the exact extent of the problem and a solution that has a chance of working, then I'm your gal.


 * Even if you decide you don't want to work with me on this, feel free to let me know if there are instances of admin abuse you'd like me to look at. Malleus complained that two unblocks wasn't enough, and s/he's certainly right, but I'm just not fond of the drama boards where such events usually come to light. (And WP:ANI is already off my watch list. I'd rather spend less time around the pokes-with-sticks crowd, at least for a while.) E-mail is enabled, and while I don't generally encourage editors to email me since I believe in transparency, I can also understand the wish to avoid retaliation by abusive admins.


 * Best,-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  19:24, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * PS My internet access may be spotty for a few days - computer is acting up.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  19:24, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * And in rereading this, I see I accidentally deleted one of my main points from my draft. Argh! The most important part of the respect equation is that in every "admin type" interaction, admins simply must remember they are dealing with a real human being, and one who is probably frustrated coming in to the interaction, either because of a deletion request, potential block, or whatever. That's why remembering there's a human involved is so critical, and why we need a system to de-sysop those who aren't grasping that.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  01:29, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

(out) I'm very tired, and have family visiting, so the nutshell version: of course I'd like to work with you; see WP:RFDA; need sleepnow. → ROUX   ₪  03:40, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Glad to hear it and looking forward to it. Enjoy the family visit.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  13:42, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment made at the talk page. My big concern is will this go far enough to solve the problem? It's a great first step, but I'm wondering if there will need to be a second step here.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:02, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Cool beans. I'm borrowing my roommate's computer intermittently until I can buy a new monitor next week, will respond in more depth then. → ROUX   ₪  21:27, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Just when I fixed my bad capacitors, you lose a monitor. I feel like I passed my computer woes on to you somehow! LOL-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  21:28, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Daniel Doen Silberberg
Fabrictramp, please delete this page. After reading the criteria for notability, I do not feel that I can provide supporting citations at this time. Perhaps after Doen's book has come out in October and subsequent independent articles have been written about him. Thank you for your attention to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeff Markham (talk • contribs) 01:45, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * All you need to do is put a db-author template on User:Jeff Markham/Daniel Doen Silberberg, which is the page I assume want deleted. HTH! -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:53, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Response to my commentary
Thanks for your response to my commentary to the article, Homeowners' association. I didn't join as an editor because I don't have special extertise on HOAs. I went to the page because I wanted information, but I noticed that there are notations of "weasle word" and citation needed" next to negative remarks. I think these citations can be overused and even misused as a means of beating down people whose opinions are different. For the example, the comment about officiers of HOA's being protected against liability for lawsuits was tagged "citation needed." That is nonsensical to me since the officiers of most corporations are protected from liability and it is not uncommon for them to use that immunity as a means of evading accountability for unethical actions. There have been too many financial scandels, particularly with banks and stock trading houses, for me to buy the idea that any intelligent, reasonably informed person is unaware of this aspect of corporation law. So why single out HOAs for a citation needed unless one is trying to protect HOAs?

As a practicing litigation attorney (employment law, not real estate), I see these tactics in court all the time. I have no desire to see them on Wikipedia as well.

Bill Brawner —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.5.14.128 (talk) 02:07, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


 * There are (as I type this) 154,121 articles on Wikipedia marked as needing citations. Hardly singling out a single article.


 * But I'm afraid you missed the point of my message to you. If you want to make a comment on the article, please do it on the article's talk page, not in the article itself. That was the only issue. HTH.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:56, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Corrin Campbell page
Hello,

Thanks for the links, i'm sure they'll come in handy as i work my way around the trials and tribulations of putting up my 1st wikipedia page. Again, said it just before but Thanks it's heartening to see a nice person out here on the interwebs. :P

Chocobofarmer86 (talk) 21:48, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Hope you enjoy it here!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Skitzo Metal
An article that you have been involved in editing, Skitzo Metal, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 22:51, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of La Martina
An article that you have been involved in editing, La Martina, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 22:54, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Can you take a look at the new version of page you deleted?
Here is its new version, with more information about this composer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BETEP/Bern_Herbolsheimer

This composer has over 300 works, so the list of works is far from complete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BETEP (talk • contribs) 01:10, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The main problem is that independent sources showing he's notable are a bit missing from the article. (It would also help tremendously if they were inline cites: see Citing_sources for how to do this.) The Seattle Weekly bit is great, but awfully short. UW and Cascadian Chorale are not independent of him, and the NY Times is basically a passing mention.


 * WP:BIO might help you understand what's needed in the article. Hope that helps!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:46, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestions, I will continue my research, finding cites showing that he's notable. Some publications exist in such magazines as Opera News and New Yorker, but those may not be online, so I could not link to them, but I will see what I can do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BETEP (talk • contribs) 01:05, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Improving the article about Nemos Music indie label
I checked the help articles about how to create new (and better :) articles. There was a definition about indie labels (an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable). The first double cd "Tulevikutee" released in 2006 included artists which have been in the atmospheric scene for a very long time (P.B.K., Pariah, Intersperse, Aural Imbalance). Pariah and Intersperse have both been released by LTJ Bukem's Good Looking Records for example. Aural Imbalance has been the starting point for some noted labels such as Cadence Recordings, Within Records and Deep Space Recordings and is also scheduled to be the next release under Nemos Music within this year. This would be the fifth release in three years. A slow, but a quite stable start for an indie label which is also one of the very few releasing atmospheric drum and bass on physical media (cd, vinyl).

However most of these artists are not present in Wikipedia. The only artist related to Nemos Music who is also present in Wikipedia is Blu Mar Ten, but although this is a long friendship, there probably are no public sources to cite. So it almost seems like a dead circle. The label has been active for 3 years, 4 releases have been released, co-operation with some of the big names (confirmed by "Tulevikutee" tracklisting) has been done...

So, it seems that in the intelligent drum and bass article the label deserves a place, but the label itself would not qualify as an article yet? As information both articles would add to each other. Please advise. I'm puzzled... :)

Thanks. Planetaryfunkalert (talk) 06:57, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It sounds like you're going to need to track down some independent, reliable sources that show the label is notable. Any magazine articles about the label? Major newspaper articles? Those types of things would establish notability.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:49, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

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Delivered by SoxBot (talk) at 03:31, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

WYNP
Thanks a lot for the help. Epitome! Epidemy is a medical term I believe... for an epidemic. =]

And sorry about the notice. I didn't know it meant anything on a user page. I'm still fairly new here, and I'm just trying to grab the ropes.

My apologies if this isn't the correct place to post; you did say the bottom. :) WYNP (talk) 21:22, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


 * No problem, that's why I left you a friendly message. :)


 * And you got the place on my talk page exactly right. Have fun here!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  21:23, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I certainly hope so. I was also wondering if you had any ideas of how to make a sexy article-like user page? :) I'm a very creative person, and I would like to do something creative and neat that people would stop and say "hey, that's cool!" Also, I was wondering if there is any kind of code that lists my contribution counts, usage statistics, anything I can show off in a proud manner? I am usually proud of my work and contributions to anything, so yeah. :)


 * Glad I got the spot right. :) I like this talk page; very clean and well presented. WYNP (talk) 02:06, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the compliment. I try not to clutter up the talk page too much, because it needs to be functional first and foremost.


 * I'm not great at userpage stuff -- almost everything on mine has been swiped creatively inspired by other Wikipedians. However, a quick bit of searching led me to User page design center. Sounds like poking around there might get you some ideas.


 * I've seen the contribution counts on some user pages, but have no clue how to do them. I'd suggest when you find one on someone's user page, hit the "edit" button just to see what the code is that does it, then cancel out so you don't edit anything on their page. Most users are flattered when you copy a design element from their page, so drop them a line letting them know. HTH!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Ajloun Forest Reserve
I've added some information about a page you marked for expansion. I'm new to wikipedia and was hoping that you could take a look at it and tell me if I'm citing/organizing things correctly. I could also use some suggestions for further work if you have any. You can find it here Ajloun Forest Reserve. Thanks. TheLastShot (talk) 15:02, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I've removed the expand tag. Thanks for improving it!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:47, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks
Just wanted to thank you for the feedback! DDNYG74B (talk) 18:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:36, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

St Emlyn's
Thanks for the feedback on St Emlyn's. Happy that you recognise the conflict of interest. Simon.carley (talk) 20:43, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of Resonant Vibes Article
Hello Fabrictramp,

I am writing to get a bit a feedback about the deletion of the Resonant Vibes article. You probably saw my comments about the fact that Wikipedia has articles on Juno Records and Beatport, both of which are very similar in nature to Resonant Vibes. I'm guessing that the problem with the Resonant Vibes article has more to do with the way it was written than with the actual subject matter. Can you give me some feedback or advice about how to edit the article to make it more suitable for inclusion on Wikipedia?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Eddie Babbage —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.85.241.50 (talk) 22:29, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, first we have the problem that you are the CEO of the company. Wikipedia is not the place for you to write about your own company. This is because none of us, myself included, could write in a completely neutral, unbiased way about a company we own or work for.


 * Second, we have the problem that the article was already deleted via a deletion discussion at Articles for deletion/Resonant Vibes. The reason for the deletion was that the article didn't demonstrate how Resonant Vibes meets the requirements of Notability (organizations and companies), and neither of the recreated versions met the requirements, either. While it's tempting to compare one article to another, that can be problematic, because you don't really know that the other article meets the requirements, either. Wikipedia is closing in on 3,000,000 articles, with more being created at any given time than the volunteers can review. So meeting the guidelines is the best way to go.


 * Hope that answered your question.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:45, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Fabrictramp,

Thanks for taking the time to give me some feedback. That is in fact helpful ;)

I will take steps to address the two issues you mentioned.

First, I will try to find a disinterested industry professional who might be willing to write and submit an article about Resonant Vibes.

Second, I will also make sure that industry professional has the relevant information related to Resonant Vibes' notability - e.g. the numerous print and online articles about our company, our awards, interviews of our management team, etc.

Over the past four years, we've made a considerable impact on the global electronic dance music scene...so hopefully an article about Resonant Vibes will be approved at some point.

Thanks again!

Eddie Babbage —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ebabbage (talk • contribs) 23:23, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Discussion at WikiProject Video games
At your suggestion, I have begun a discussion of the various DSi / Wii list pages at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Cleanup. Please join the discussion there if you have further thoughts on how to handle these pages. Cnilep (talk) 00:46, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads up. Time will be limited today, but I'll try to take a look.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:39, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

downloadable content: DS vs. DSi
I really hate to butt in about the WiiWare/Wii thing and merging the DSiWare list into/under DS games and all that (as seen here), but though the DSi can play DS games, it is not possible for the DS or DS Lite to access the DSi Shop and play DSiWare games. It's like the Wii; while it can play GameCube games, the GC cannot access the Wii Shop and play WiiWare or VC games. When Nintendo gets around to releasing DSi-only retail games, there would definitely be an argument for combining that list into the DSiWare list I think, but as it stands, i think it would be somewhat misleading to list games that can only be played on the newer system under an article featuring games playable on the system that came before it. ^^;; -- Khisanth (talk) 01:49, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:38, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Lake Hayward
Sorry, I will not use delete templates until I become more familiar with them. -- An ' ha ' mi  rak  12:53, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Notability standards/conflicts of interest etc
Star chefs originally put up my page and an editor edited it to reflect the actual biography but I uploaded it because she didn't know how. A journalist is also trying to give a neutral viewpoint but they won't let her modify the draft.

As to notability standards. This link has almost every article written about me since I started my career http://www.zarela.com/about/press-media/almost-complete-press-list/ (Zarela Martinez (talk) 02:35, 16 August 2009 (UTC)) (Zarela Martinez (talk) 02:33, 16 August 2009 (UTC))

Qi Lu article deletion
Hi, noticed you deleted the Qi Lu (head of search development at Yahoo, and now Microsoft); what was the reason? He is an extremely important person in the search industry and I had been hoping to reference his article and get more information about him by having it in place; you don't think he's notable enough? Since he is mentioned in dozens of other wikipedia articles.

Jaredlicina (talk) 07:58, 17 August 2009 (UTC) Jared, August 17th 2009


 * I hope I can make my reply concise -- there's a lot to touch on in your question.


 * First, I've restored the article. In reviewing to see why it was deleted, I noticed the references which I didn't see the first time because there was no tag at the end of the article. The Business Week article is enough to avoid speedy deletion (although if there are more references out there, I'd suggest adding them). I apologize for missing that the first time.


 * Without the Business Week reference, however, the article as it stood really didn't say much about why Qi Lu is important. The first paragraph consists of "Qi Lu is a former technology developer for Yahoo!'s technology search division." This doesn't tell the average person if he was one of thousands of people working in the division or the main person who came up with everything, or even what kind of contribution Yahoo!'s technology search division has made to the world at large (for example, did they pioneer something? Or just adapt algorithms they purchased?)


 * The part about overcoming adversity, while impressive, really doesn't make any claim of importance or notability of itself. So we get to the last two sentences, one of which is "Lu is currently an executive at Microsoft working on the Bing search engine." Again, this doesn't really tell us why Qi Lu is important.


 * Being mentioned in dozens of other Wikipedia articles is not enough for an article. (FWIW, I searched to see the types of articles he's mentioned in, and all the ones I saw about this Qi Lu are passing mentions.) You might want to read WP:BIO to see what needs to be in the article to show notability, and WP:BETTER to see what types of content should be in the article. Hope that helps!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:45, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

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Delivered by SoxBot (talk) at 02:01, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of Mens Derby Coalition Page
This page was called for in either the "roller derby" article or the "list of roller derby leagues".

It was posted as a stub as there has been little traditional media written on this group, although that looks like it will be changing in the near future.

There are a number of references on neutral sites, the creation of the stub page was critical for beginning to organize that information. Amy &quot;Bitches Bruze&quot; Moore (talk) 17:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Other than the infobox that gave no more information than the title, there just wasn't any content in the article. Not even an introduction. But if you'd like me to restore it to a subpage of your user page so you can expand it, I'll be more than happy to do so.


 * However, you might want to read WP:N first. The media attention needs to happen before the article. HTH -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  17:52, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Let's wait until the media comes in September. I hadn't written the intro because I could not do so within guidelines I was editorially comfortable with - although there is some media out there upon which I could write the intro. I'm too new to understand what it means about it being a subpage of my user page - but I'm up to that if that's possible and will read and learn more about how to build from there. There is some press on DerbyNewsNetwork.com - the accepted online media outlet for all things derby. I just have to dig deep for it. 75.69.13.197 (talk) 22:42, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry
Sorry about the 6teen All Characters,I knew about the other page, but i have to write an article that character and it has to be signed by the guy. RuneScape Adventure (talk) 00:55, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Between the Silence page
I am unsure of what you want me to do with the page? The production has already been staged as a staged reading at the brockley Jack, it is debuting at the Soho Theatre in October and has mass interest which is why the page is useful for people looking for information on both the playwright and play itself. It is listed on doollee (the playwright listings) and many articles are online. Therefore I thought it was valuable to Wikipedia. I will change any information you wish but at the moment I am unclear as to what you wish to change???? Please can you help.

Also what do you mean by prod contested by original author?? I am the original author, so I am unsure what you mean. Regarding the notablilty on gnews and gsearch, do you mean not enough information comes up on search engines etc? As many listings and information do appear when searched on Google etc. Please could you explain. Thank you. --Moss.steele (talk) 12:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Did you read the response (and the linked pages) at Talk:Between the Silence? The key link there is Notability, especially the section Notability. If you can find articles that have significant coverage of the play (not just listings or show times) in independent, reliable sources, by all means add them to the article and/or AfD discussion. I gave it an honest look and I couldn't find those sources, but you would have a better handle on them than anyone. (Just read WP:COI first.)


 * As to "prod contested by original author", this means you removed the prod tag (and a few others which you shouldn't have removed) in this edit. That's called contesting the proposed deletion (prod).-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:10, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for getting back to me. I have added explanations of the reference links. However articles such as independant reviews and articles will not be online until after the show in October which may mean at the moment i cannot provide them. If there is a way keep it up and add when they are published that would be very helpful, however i completely understand if it must be removed and re-added after the publishing of the articles.--Moss.steele (talk) 13:17, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Another candidate for speedy deletion
Hi, since you took care of this case and are familiar with it, could you also have a look at that one. I just filed it. It is about the chairman of Vintage Real Estate and was written by the same user,. I tagged it for speedy deletion. Thx  SPLETTE &#32;:]&#32;<font style="color:#104E8B;font-size:90%">How's my driving? 00:38, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like MoP already got to it.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  01:33, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, thanks.  SPLETTE &#32;:]&#32;<font style="color:#104E8B;font-size:90%">How's my driving? 01:40, 22 August 2009 (UTC)