User talk:Faendalimas/Archive 6

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Wikispecies user box
You are really busy busy with the animals here at EnWp as well, nice to see!

I just wanted to remind you that you can promote Wikispecies by using the WS admin user box. Dan Koehl (talk) 15:08, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Done that, thanks for reminding me. Cheers Faendalimas  talk 00:13, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

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I need help with an identification issue!
Hey Faendalimas, I have a serious question and I didn't know who else to ask about this. On the French Wikipedia, the page titled "Cylindraspis indica" has this picture:

On the english cite, there is a picture titled to be Aldabrachelys gigantea hololissa:

Aren't these pictures the same thing, just changed a little? If they are one or the other, what can I do about it?

Can you identify which species they are? It is hard for me to tell if it is an Aldabran or not.

Nicksamphibians (talk) 23:09, 12 June 2015 (UTC)


 * the specimen is Cylindraspis indica and this photo was originally published by Sir Walter Rothschild here in 1894. It was the last known specimen of the species and wasd in captivity in Mauritius. So the French WP hasd it right and this needs to be corrected for EN WP. By the way I noticed you made sub species pages for the different Aldabran forms, be careful with that if each one does not have significant unique content they will be deleted. We cannot waste space on here and it is very rare for sub species to be permitted unique pages. It can all go under the species, subspecies are subjective and generally not that relevant. Cheers, Faendalimas  talk 23:30, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
 * addit, to deal with it we must get the photo corrected then remove it from the Aldabrtan page if it is being used. The EN WP photo has no reference whereas the French one does, I go with the referenced one. Faendalimas  talk 23:32, 12 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that correction. The information available on the pages for those subspecies is unique and details needed information. It details history, morphotype information, description, and significant conservation as well as where the species exists right now (i.e. location). Thanks for the response.


 * a couple of papers that may be of use to you: TTWG Checklist 2014 and TEWG Checklist 2015 these are very up to date reviews the second one is the Extinct Turtles from the Plio - Pleistocene to Recent. Also the person who uploaded the photo on EN Wikipedia was so I am pinging him so he can see this conversation too. He can then fix his own upload. Cheers,  Faendalimas  talk 00:14, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * That cannot be Cylindraspis indica, it went extinct (1840s) before photography was even invented, and before that picture was taken. Furthermore, that species had a "saddleback" shaped carapace, unlike that in the photo, which is rounded. The source the photo was taken from states the specimen was brought to Mauritius from the Seychelles. And I've read several papers and books about extinct Mascarene animals, none mention this species was photographed alive. Also, Rothschild was a highly unreliable writer, and probably just made an unfounded assumption. FunkMonk (talk) 00:15, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The animal was in captivity, in all likelihood for over 100 years, on Mauritius, it was also examined by Gunther. I know Rothchild had reliability issues, I will check and see if the animal was kept after its death, they sometimes were. I will ask Justin Gerlach, I do work on turtles and tortoises, including giant tortoises for over 25 years. Reunion and Rodrigues had both saddle back and domed forms a total of some 5-6 species. The saddle backed form was Cylindraspis vosmeari. Rothchild's works on the giant tortoises when cross referenced with Gunther were not too bad once you dealt with the nomenclatural issues. Cheers Faendalimas  talk 00:32, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The original publication of the photo claims its from the Mascarines not the Seychelles and diagnoses it accordingly by its lack of nuchal scute and extremely long neck, comparative to Seychelle specimens. From what I can see that is not an Aldabran, it does not look right, it was also a larger animal than the maximum size for Aldabrans. Yes this is relying on Rothchild, but we can only go on what he has said and what we can see in a photo. I will look into wether it is now in a museum, maybe if we are lucky we can get better info. Cheers Faendalimas  talk 00:39, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Note that Rothschild only states he heard it currently lived on Mauritius. The later 1905 book states it was brought there from the Seychelles. If this specimen was C. indica, it would be very well known in the literature, but it isn't. So I'm pretty sure we can rule out C. indica, but the question is then what it is. FunkMonk (talk) 00:46, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * A picture on the C. indica page appears to be saddle-backed. The reference you gave me for the french photo just kind of has the photo thrown in that book. When I read it it seems like they could have been talking about an Aldabra tortoise and that was what the photo was for, but I am totally unsure. The photo uploaded says it was an A. hololissa, is that accurate anyway? Also what is the size of C. indica, I think it was supposed to be like 1-4 feet long but that doesn't narrow it down much. Nicksamphibians (talk) 00:49, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps related (I wonder if Rothschild's imagination went a bit wild, as no other sources confirm his claim): "The giant tortoises now seen on Mauritius are mostly derived from animals imported to Mauritius from the Seychelles in the 1880's, following the recommendation of Charles Darwin, who was concerned that the Aldabra species would become extinct. He wanted to have captive breeding of endangered species as a conservation measure. Following Darwin's intervention, the governor of Mauritius and the Seychelles agreed to the introduction of the tortoise to Pamplemousses Botanic Gardens.". FunkMonk (talk) 00:55, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Many of these species are messed up because there is very little material left to go by. I have asked Roger Bour if he knows of this specimen he is formally of the MNHN in Paris and has published on giant tortoises from the Indian Ocean. I will also try get a hold of Justin Gerlach. My hope is it was put in a museum and then I can get fresh photo's of it, from better angles, so that we can be more positive. It is not A. hollissa I am sure of that. It is a Cylindraspis I am guessing the French WP went by the original documentation on the specimen, limited as it was. Cheers Faendalimas  talk 00:59, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * This 2010 paper states that the name T. indica was used for several species of tortoise: "Nominal species included in Gray’s synonymies of T. indica are understood to refer to several distinct genera and species of giant tortoises from Aldabra Atoll, the Galápagos, and the Mascarenes." Again, I am 100% sure the photo does not show a live Cylindraspis, as all recent publications states this genus went extinct before the photo was even taken (around 1800 according to the IUCN). Also remember that Rothschild only mentioned Testudo indica (which can mean many different things), so linking this with Cylindraspis specifically is just conjecture. FunkMonk (talk) 01:08, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * That paper was part of Jack Fraser's discussions on the typer issues with A. gigantea, but in any case this paper actually deals with Cylindraspis. I think it is Cylindraspis because from the photo it looks like one, I am not taking Rothchild's word for it, at species level I accept your points, but genus I can identify it. My difficulty is there a 3 domed taxa, C. indica (actually it is both domed and saddlebacked - yes thats a problem) from Reunion, and C. inepta from Mauritius, this is doubtful it was extinct too long ago and C. peltastes, from Rodrigues, problem was this was a small species. So based on what I can see, I would run with C. indica however I accept that trying to get more data would help. Austin and Arnold (2001) did not mention this specimen which leads me to believe it was not preserved, unfortunately. Or maybe its still on Mauritius. Who knows, need more data to take this further. Cheers Faendalimas  talk 01:23, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * We do have the 1905 statement that the specimen was imported to Mauritius from the Seychelles. I'm more inclined to trust that source than Rothschild. So unless the newer statement is false, a Cylindraspis was imported to the Seychelles, then brought back to the Mascarenes, which seems a bit unlikely. It is certainly premature (and potentially misleading) to add the photo to the article before we have any kind of confirmation. Rothschild alone certainly isn't strong enough as a source. He also gave us stuff like violet macaw and Réunion red and green parakeet. Furthermore, classifying it in article space based on our own examination is original research. FunkMonk (talk) 01:28, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The 1905 statement of locality is unsourced and for all we can know wrong, no evidence of where that is from, Rothchild stated he was told it came from the Seychelles by the Military in Port Louis, Mauritius, but even then locality data is often dubious, and Rothchild went on to use characters to identify it, characters that still hold up today, but are not visible in the photo. I suspect the 1905 paper have made the mistake of considering third hand information about a specimen, over an analysis and that is not a good thing to go by, in other words the 1905 paper is quoting Rothchild also and ignoring the analysis. What you are saying based on the evidence is that a paper in 1905 that quotes Rothchild is a better source than Rothchild, he has to be the source of the information since he was told this in letters when he tried to buy the animal. The holotype of Myuchelys bellii is from South America according to the original description, the species is from Australia. I never, as a taxonomist, rely on metadata for specimens alone, particularly third hand and old. Saying the statement is false is overstating it though, they are probably wrong not false, there is a subtle difference. I shall see what I can find out, tracking down this stuff is what I do. Until more info is available I want it not used at all, not added to the Reunion article, its misleading also to have it on the Aldabrachelys pages, since it is not a specimen of that genus. Like I said, leave in Commons, unused, until we have more info. Cheers, Faendalimas  talk 01:50, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Note that the specimen Rothschild describes is not the one in the photo, but another specimen that was sent to him. Looking further, Rothschild's location data for other giant tortoises has also been questioned in this recent account: Anyhow, perhaps the following paper may hold the answer: Rothschild, W. (1915):. On the gigantic land Tortoises of the Seychelles and Aldabra-Madagascar group with some notes on certain forms of the Mascarene group. Novitates Zoologicae 22; 418-442 And here's a paper that suggests that Seychelles–Aldabra tortoises are morphologically variable: http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2744/CCB-0828.1 FunkMonk (talk) 01:53, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * If any of you have access, this paper seems to be rather important: Bour, R. 1980. Systematique des tortues terrestres des iles Mascareignes: genre Cylindraspis Fitzinger, 1835 (Reptilia, Chelonii). BULLETIN DU MUSEUM NATIONAL D'HISTOIRE NATURELLE SECTION A ZOOLOGIE BIOLOGIE ET ECOLOGIE ANIMALES 2 (3): 895-904 FunkMonk (talk) 02:07, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes I have access or can get any of these papers, including the old ones. Check my user page, I am a museum based taxonomist/ paleontologist for turtles and tortoises. I am second author on the TEWG Checklist 2015 pdf I linked earlier. So I do know these recent authors personally, including Roger Bour. Do you have the Rothchild 1915 paper? If not I can link a pdf for you. It is nearly midnight here in Brazil though and early morning in France, so I will have to get to this over the next few days. Until then probably best to just put the photo on hold and see what I can dig up. Let me know if you need any papers, or if you have pro version of drop box I can share my library with you. You will need pro though over 500 pdf's in it on turtles etc~, I will need your email to share the folder, or I can link individual papers on here. Cheers, Faendalimas  talk 02:20, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Cool, yeah, Rothschild 1915 is free online in full, Bour 1980 could be interesting, but I would only be able to read French through my Spanish skills, which are pretty lacklustre... From my reading of Rothschild 1915 so far, he does not mention the photographed specimen. FunkMonk (talk) 02:23, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok got better information. The specimen is in a museum, NHM or British Museum, (BMNH 1947.3.4.1) Now this is important, apparently Rothchild did get the specimen eventually, at Tring (he published further on this in 1915), but its not 100% certain its the right animal because he got a group of them. As best as we can determin it is now the holotype of Testudo sumeirei (Gadow 1895), please note most sites list Sauzier 1892:396 as the original description of this species but that seems to be wrong. Testudo sumeiri is a junior synonym of Aldabrachelys gigantea gigantea so currently it is neither Cylindraspis or A. g. hollissa maybe that will change but officially in synonymies it is an Aldabran and same subspecies as the living form. The paper by Sauzier 1892 (here) has more photos including again the photo we have been discussing, so clearly they were all talking about the same specimen. I will be honest I am not convinced that is an Aldabran, but my opinion does not count since it is a holotype we must follow published synonymy (see Reptile Database). Next time I am in the British Museum I will make a point of examining the specimen, until then we can only go by published lit. I got this information from Roger Bour who went through his notes on the specimen for me, he has actually examined the specimen and published on it. Sorry he did not have a pdf of his 1980 paper I shall look into getting it elsewhere. So my recommendation is to change the photo to Aldabrachelys gigantea gigantea with a sub note it is the holotype of Testudo sumeiri a junior synonym. We can then use it accordingly, ie on the Aldabran page or not at all, up to all I guess. Hope this helps, cheers Faendalimas  talk 15:30, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Wow! Thanks for the help determining this, its much appreciated. I guess all that is left to do is to change the photo. Nicksamphibians (talk) 23:29, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Great work! Now we only need to change the file description of both images and remove it from incorrect pages. FunkMonk (talk) 05:58, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

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Turtle ages
I'm only categorizing based on whatever information was already present in the actual article, I don't claim any expertise and you can recategorize them based on whatever evidence is available for the actual age of the taxa. I just want to make sure that they are being categorized by first appearance and will leave the specifics/corrections to the discretion of editors who watch those pages. Abyssal (talk) 18:06, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

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