User talk:Falcadore/Archive 3

2009 Falken Tasmania Challenge
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RE: Dean Fiore
Hi, that was only me being bold, because its better not to multi-link as per WP:OVERLINK. -- M aen K. A. Talk  15:54, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Then the method lacked technique. If removing links surely you preserve the first instance and delete the repeats? Those in tables are worth keeping because they are looked at seperately compared to in-line links. And 'cleanup' doesn't describe anything. --Falcadore (talk) 15:58, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

B24 Succession box
Wouldn't that be a matter of opinion though? To those guys and those involved in the 2 Bathurst 24hrs, it wasn't pointless.HoldenV8 (talk) 16:38, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I have no problem with that :) HoldenV8 (talk) 22:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I see your point there. But, with reference to the Calder 500, it was only ever a one off created as both a warm up for the WTCC 500km race at Calder, which ceased to be in Group A after 1987, and to give the Thunderdome a test before the WTCC race so I can't see it as relevant since the Bathurst 24hr only stopped being run due to financial problems of the promotors. Of course, this race has now been scrapped and the 12hr for production cars brought back.

But, in saying that I do see your point and will leave such things to just mentions in the main body of an article.HoldenV8 (talk) 11:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Dutch Grand Prix
Why not? Does it bother you? I only did those links, because i saw the same thing was done on another GP site (can`t remember which right now). If you dont like it, remove it ;) Luka666 (talk) 22:53, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I will, because I did previously because of massively unnecessary WP:OVERLINKING (of which it might be worth a quick look). --Falcadore (talk) 02:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The Malcolm Rea car did escape my attention. The 1989 Lansvale car was a mistake due to a wrong photo being vied by me mistakenly. What I saw was their 1988 car which was the Walkinshaw VL, not the HDT VL Group A. As for the VN Group A SS being an SV, check your facts there Falcadore. Yes the VL was an SV as it was Walkinshaw produced but the VN was Holden and was never designated as an SV.HoldenV8 (talk) 08:02, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Australian Formula 3‎
I have a feeling your actions on the tables issue is starting to become more of a personal battle against my edits. Please explain properly why you have done this, what benefits it brings and please don't just direct me to another Wiki page on "why the blind can't read". Thank you. Officially Mr X (talk) 21:01, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe you're feeling to be wrong. I don't believe someone saying edits that happen to be yours are bad, is personal. It's entirely possible that they are just bad. Don't diss people just because they disagree with you, they may have valid points. Try to learn something from the collective wisdom assembled within WP:MS and from the greater Wikipedia experience. --Falcadore (talk) 21:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You still didn't answer my question (incase you didn't notice I want your wisdom but not your unhelpful criticism). Officially Mr X (talk) 22:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I and others have answered many times, and I quote from myself and others...
 * Overpowering use of both bold text and colour shading, it just drags the eye away from everything else in the article. Plus is it really necessary to show champion teams, top three point scorers and minor class champions? Wouldn't that information, particularly the latter two, be better conveyed by the article written on each years series?
 * The extra detail is not necessary. It goes against the style of Wikipedia...
 * I had a quick look and all I saw was flagflagflagflagflagflag...
 * I think it's too much work and it's too overwhelming for no reason. Per WP:COLOURS, we shouldn't be using colours...
 * Revert it all back to what it was before. It's just plain ugly right now....
 * My wisdom, and the wisdom of others, is to change it all back.
 * --Falcadore (talk) 02:37, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

"Would have been there, but..."
We're having a discussion about that right now on the AOWR discussion page. Namely, at what points to put in "Rpl" or "DNP". Others have commented, and I tend to now agree with, the notion that "Rpl" should mean that the driver qualified the car, but someone else raced it...since the amount of times that one could write that given drivers were replaced by one team, but then went to another, makes the choice of whether to put "Rpl" for that reason almost arbitrary, eventually. Since Helio was unable to even show up, but was still on contract with Team Penske, I am saying DNP should be present instead. --Chr.K. (talk) 20:51, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I know, I started it. Personally I think it should be blank. How many other drivers could claim that they should have been there but for other factors, like being sacked, not being hired, team having run out of dollars etc, a criminal trial is just another variation of that. If you don't show up, if someone else drives your car when you don't even set foot inside the venue you are at best, DNP, but since in this instance it was never likely he was going to start the race from over a week out it should just be blank. The team had specifically planned for him not to be there! Will Power did all his pre-season testing for over a month ahead of time. It was never likely he would start.
 * There are many terms, leading of which Rpl and Inj which are just unneccesary variations of DNS or blank. If we are going to detail the reasons there and for Castroneves, then why not detail the retirements? Acc, Eng, Gbx, Fue, Fir etc. Its a double standard. --Falcadore (talk) 21:10, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

No probsHoldenV8 (talk) 13:08, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Road racing and Australian motorsport
Hi, Falcadore! I've revamped the article about road racing and it seems that you disargee with some changes. I wanted to use current circuits as examples, that's why I removed the Mille Miglia and the Targa Florio. As far as I'm concerned, Spa-Francorchamps, Bathurst and la Sarthe are public roads most time of the year (except some portions, like the Bugatti Circuit).

You'll surely know Bathurst better than me, but the article about it says what I wrote in Road racing. I didn't mean that it's a high-speed motorway/highway/autobahn (English is confusing) but an undivided highway, just like Spa and la Sarthe. Perhaps I should have used this other link rather than one to highway.

I wanted to ask you another unrelated question: are V8 Supercars silhouette racing cars or production-based race cars? I want to make that clear in articles both in the English-language and Spanish-language Wikipedias, and I believe you are a good source for this. I expect you answer here. See you later! --NaBUru38 (talk) 17:43, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The main part of the objection, if I remember correctly, was the use of Road course for highway based circuits when road course is a term used principally for permanent race tracks and in the US is used generically for anything that isn't an oval, so I was keen to remove the potential for confusion (we have enough US/Euro issues in this subject already), reading the article it seems the term persists in places other than where you've editted and needs further editting.
 * The Mount Panorama Circuit has residents and businesses all along its route and always has really, well roughly since World War II certainly. It's marked as a tourist drive loop, it does not take anyone anywhere like a highway might except back to the start. It might not be a street circuit in the sense that is has painted street lines, traffic lights and intersections, but those aren't qualifiers I believe.
 * Additionally I had believed that Spa-Francorchamps has been permanently closed to public traffic for about five years now. This is not the case? Historically it's been a highway circuit of course. Undivided highway might be technically correct, but its a term ripe with confusion possibilities because of the usage of highway as a term which largely means inter-city road yes?
 * While those within V8 supercar, and a large portion of fans, will tell you they are production based, but its fantasy. While some sheet metal remains the same the mechanicals do not. Silouhette definately. --Falcadore (talk) 23:37, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Hold on a minute, don't change the subject! We were discussing about the nature of specific circuits, not whether "road racing" includes racing in temporary circuits. I'll won't get inside that discussion but leave that to you English native speakers instead. For example, you'll know better than me how to describe circuits placed in non-city routes ("highways").
 * As I wrote in Street circuit, those circuits are laid inside "human settlements" (i.e. cities, towns, villages, etc.) That's clearly not the case of Bathurst. And since you tell me it's not permanently closed, that's one issue less for us. Le Mans is well known, so that's also settled. We'll need to find out whether Spa is closed now.
 * Now what? My question is: do you think you should revert this?
 * In Spanish, purpose-built paved motorsport circuits are called "autódromos" - that's the same in other languages. (see Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Autódromo Internacional Nelson Piquet, Autodrom Most, Autodrome de Linas-Montlhéry, Autódromo do Estoril, Autodromo Nazionale Monza). Not only that word doesn't exist in English, but there's no article in Wikipedia about those circuits (Race track is a messup). But keep in mind that paved ovals are purpose built as well. See you! --NaBUru38 (talk) 01:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You clearly don't know Bathurst. The University grounds and a church are right along side race track, people live within the Bathurst race track, there are over a dozen residences whose driveways exit directly onto the race track, both on the straights and along the top of the Mountain and main residential suburbs of the town are only sperated from the circuit by a short walk over a crest. Many spectators staying at small hotels within the city walk to the track on race weekends. Just because the circuit is not lined with buildings doesn't not make it a street circuit.
 * I don't think it should be reverted, because what you changed it to is not correct. What is there presently is not completely correct either as you have pointed out, but I reverted because what you'd written was wrong, not because what had been there was right, it was in essense and invitation for you to research it a little better and get it right. --Falcadore (talk) 01:46, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

(Reply to this) I don't understand your question. I haven't read that article in weeks, working on stuff like this instead. --NaBUru38 (talk) 21:21, 22 March 2010 (UTC)


 * A hunch? Wild guessing? Me bad. See you later! --NaBUru38 (talk) 00:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd say the latter. Start anytime you want. :) By the way, I disagree with some of my old edits. Bye! --NaBUru38 (talk) 02:41, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Defaultsort
Links/examples please? Skier Dude ( talk ) 00:03, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Category:1997 in V8 Supercars --Falcadore (talk) 00:05, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Category:1992 in motorsport --Falcadore (talk) 00:14, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Imagine the mess if you default sorted this category? You'd have a mix of what had been sorted by year or name... --Falcadore (talk) 00:53, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll leave a note with the AWB folks, as this is a "default" feature now - looks like they have to add in an exception. Skier Dude  ( talk ) 02:46, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Re: Spa Record
I didn't know that the lap record had to be in current config? I found on Spa's official site that the current track (regardless of config) record is held by Schumi as opposed to my change of Kimi in 2004 (which is what F1's official site lists as the lap record). Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Existencebyproxy (talk • contribs) 18:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Waggott
If you check out you'll find that the 4cyl Waggott engine was a Holden Grey Motor. The Waggott V8 was the Ford based engine.

Fair enough about the V8 used in the Matich SR3HoldenV8 (talk) 10:48, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I haven't replied before as I've had a few pc issues to sort out first.

Ok, I see your points and won't change things unless necessary.HoldenV8 (talk) 11:56, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Subcats of Category:Racecar drivers by century
Hi Falcadore. FYI, I've clarified what I'm proposing be done with those subcats on Category:Racecar drivers by century at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009_September_11. I thought I'd let you know in case you need to update your comment (I don't think you do, but I thought I'd let you know just in case). Regards. DH85868993 (talk) 04:41, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

"You're got to shout, shout and shout again!"
Look, I'm a shouty kind of guy. Think Stephen Fry in the third-season finale of Blackadder, and you're on the money. But you can start judging me once you convince me you're never let your emotions overcome you. Go back and re-read them in context: it was over someone ignoring an infobox! Either it's the single biggest over-reaction in this history of over-reactions, or maybe, just maybe there was something more going on. Yeah, I was worked up over somethng that was going on. Yeah, I took my anger and frustrations out on someone that I shouldn't have. And yes, I am sorry for it. I would have apologised, but in my wrath I couldn't recall the user in question. But don't sit there and judge me without thinking tht maybe there was something more to it. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 11:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

2010 Bahrain
Hi, this is my edit... not this :D --Francesco Betti Sorbelli (talk) 09:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem Falca :) --Francesco Betti Sorbelli (talk) 10:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Speculation of the highest order?
Without meaning to sound rude or aggressive, I do not think that it was appropriate to remove my section on what would happen if Alonso's result is to be nullified. Such a question is bound to come to somebody's head. It can't just have been me thinking about it.

So, to make things easier, I put it on Wikipedia.

In a nutshell, the gist of my paragraph is, "The race plan, if any, affected the championship in this way ..." Sk8er Boi (talk) 09:57, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Speed World Challenge
Sorry about my edits to Speed World Challenge. I've had the same problem on other Wikis. I was simply adding cars previously used. Please note my source. 67.188.45.27 (talk) 20:33, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Mark Skaife
Hi Falcadore. I'm not sure if it is where they were born or where they live on the most wins etc on the V8 Supercars Page. It had Craig Lowndes down for Queensland! That's where he lives. He was born in Melbourne. Mark Skaife lives in Melbourne. But i'm not sure, you should probably change it. I'm just a starter on Wikipedia, sorry. Vicmillsy

Mount Panorama Circuit
Outstanding work on Mount Panorama map compared to previous version, and your continued work on racing circuit maps.

A small critique if you don't mind. A few corner names are not quite correct. Slightly odd to see Quarry in use for Griffin's Bend. It's not wrong, it's just Quarry was the original name and used up until about the 1950s. Similarly Griffin's Mount is a rather old name although it has never had a consistent name since. The Dipper is actually corner 14, refered thus as the track plunges sharply mid corner. Forrests Elbow is corner 18, corner 19 has never really had a name beyond the kink in Conrod Straight. Skyline was renamed Brock's Skyline after Peter Brock's death in 2006. --Falcadore (talk) 09:53, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you leave a note on my Requests forum? Accounts are free and I prefer suggestions there.  That will also enable you to receive notification when the new version is ready. Will (Talk - contribs) 23:45, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

User:KembanganGreen
I noticed your warning about Sockpuppetry on KembanganGreen's user page. I would say that at the moment, he's not violating policy, as per WP:SOCK. There is no requirement to maintain only one account, and since Fen grip is not editing any articles, this is not yet something that requires investigation. Also, judging from their user pages they appear to be siblings, or at least that's the claim. IIIVIX ( Talk ) 21:39, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll take no further action. Should I remove the original complaint? --Falcadore (talk) 22:53, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I've never dealt with WP:CHILD before. Is the personal information on their user pages an issue? -- ToET 23:16, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Reading further, I see that consensus has never been reached on the subject. (I have no involvement here beyond the redirects I've nominated for deletion.) -- ToET 23:28, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

This user has added pratice (sic) times to the 2009 Japanese GP again. Britmax (talk) 08:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

It has been suggested at WP:Redirects for discussion/Log/2009 October 24 that this user is now editing as Aquadeias (talk). -- ToET 00:01, 28 October 2009 (UTC)


 * It wasn't a suggestion. There appears however to be no malicious intent so I've not done anything further apart from continuing to RFD/Speedy these odd redirects. --Falcadore (talk) 00:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

2009 F1
You seems to tell me something about the 24th driver, right? Let me tell you, if you want to be the 25th, (if now add in it should be 26th). be my guest. By the way, are there teams going to HIRE you to drive for their them? If there are, i will put in a slot for you at the F1 2009 page. And then, if they blame me for adding your name E.g. 🇦🇺 Falcadore ....... <-- this, i will say it is YOU who told me to DO that. Véṭ ṭèĺ 543  07:51, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

User:121.6.54.207
I'm going to take a fanciful guess that our recent RFD/TFD vandal, User:121.6.54.207, is infact User:Aquadeias. Beyond the fact that RFD and TFDs are the exact things that we've been using to mark Aquadeias' additions for deletion recently, I also find it funny that Aquadeias stopped editing his user page, then seven minutes later we get vandalism, then five minutes after the vandalism stops Aquadeias is editing again, on the very user talk page the IP vandalised, asking me how he can block someone for no apparent reason.

I think a watchful eye is needed on Aquadeias here. IIIVIX ( Talk ) 07:43, 28 October 2009 (UTC)


 * My thoughts exactly. He was watching your user page and I was debating how to alert you. --Falcadore (talk) 07:48, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

2011 Bahrain Grand Prix
Hi Falcadore. I noticed your recent RFD of 2011 Bahrain Grand Prix. You may care to add 2011 Indian Grand Prix into the same RFD (I thought it made sense for them to be in the same RFD rather than for me to start a new one). Hopefully that's the last of them. DH85868993 (talk) 07:15, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Actioned, thank you. --Falcadore (talk) 12:58, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

2002 V8Supercar Championship Series
Hi Falcadore. I accidently forgot that Tomas Mezera was partnered with Jim Richards in the Queensland 500. I'm still basically a starter on Wikipedia, sorry. However, Rick Kelly and Nathan Pretty were partnered together for both the Queensland 500 and the Bathurst 1000. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tonykart8877 (talk • contribs) 12:40, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

V8 supercars
Shocking there wont be any coverage of the v8s tomorrow until midnight. Dont know how they could have let this happen. Cheers 211.30.29.19 (talk) 11:27, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Chevrolet British?
As far as I know, the Chevrolet WTCC team was a Chevrolet idea, who got RML to run their programme, beacuse they have a complete lack of experience in such racing. I may be wrong, so I'll bring it up at WT:MOTOR and see what others think. Thanks - mspete93   [talk]  23:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Chevrolet is an American company yes. Chevrolet isn't doing the racing though is it? It's RML. If Chevrolet set up their own team, or even if they bought another team then yes USA would be correct, but they haven't, they've hired a British team to represent them. They've subcontracted the team out. If you follow the link on the WTCC page it goes to RML Group, the British race team, not to Chevrolet, the American manufacturer. Even the existing Wiki-WTCC page format is against the idea of being US flagged.
 * This is the follow of flags. If we are going to have them, they need to be accurate. --Falcadore (talk) 04:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL
Please read WP:CRYSTAL where it says "It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur". The current article is referenced and up to date on quite where we are on the whole 2010 British grand prix debacle. Given the page views the page is getting people are turning to Wikipedia to see the current state of affairs. Francium12 00:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Surely that can go on the 2010 Formula One season or British Grand Prix articles. The race is eight months away. Still plenty of time to develop the individual race articles later. And bearing in mind that the race may not actually occur, which in that instance there will be no 2010 British Grand Prix article. --Falcadore (talk) 01:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)::
 * Fine, merge. Given the large amount of contribtutions you have made to F1 you clearly have ownership issues over the topic. I'll back off and go and edit something else. Francium12  03:35, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm asking for comment, not a hissy-fit. And why does the fact that the majority of my work is in other motorsport articles or on the periphery of F1, when F1 is already well served by many-many edittors both good and bad have to do with anything, either what I say has validity or not, please do not make this some sort of elitist "I've got more edits than you do arguement." If it does not have any validity say so and why. Save the sulking for someone who may be impressed by it. --Falcadore (talk) 04:01, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

No probs about the linksHoldenV8 (talk) 07:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey
At List of 2009 motorsport champions, you didn't add the 2009 NASCAR Sprint Cup and Nationwide champions. B-Machine (talk) 16:39, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Why do I have to do it? Can;t you? --Falcadore (talk) 23:10, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

2010 Australian Grand Prix
I dont think its too early to create the article. By the way, why didnt you delete the 2010 Bahrain Grand Prix page? Their time difference is only 2 weeks. Aquadeias (talk) 13:28, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Because it is the next race. Unless there is a specific news item about the Australian Grand Prix that is newsworthy now, much like the debate over the British Grand Prix for example, then all you are doing by starting the 2010 Australian Grand Prix is creating the template which describes the race location, date, and race format. All of this information is already available on the 2010 Formula One season page. This is a good measure of whether an article is justified or not, when it carries information that is not already on another article. This goes for all 2010 Grands Prix. The 2010 AGP is in March, it is November, that is five months away in which the article essentially carries no information, it is far too early. If there wasn't a time when an article is too early then we could create articles say for the 2015 Singapore Grand Prix.
 * There are times when we just have to exercise patience. Wikipedia is not a news source. There is no race to get information up on the web before everyone else. The most important thing about wikipedia is to be correct the first time information is posted, which is why wikipedia does not post rumours. If you want to write about anything you like, months in advance then I suggest Wikipedia is not for you and there are dozens of chat forums out there you can post that kind of information. --Falcadore (talk) 08:36, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Formula Three Articles
What do you mean by "not a derivative of Formula 3 article"? Why did you feel compelled to remove the link to the main F3 article off the top of all the F3 sub-articles? Officially Mr X (talk) 14:01, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * For the very simple reason that they are not 'sub-articles'. The article on the Manchester United Football Club is not a sub-article of Association Football is it? Please use some better judgement in your editting. --Falcadore (talk) 14:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Torana Motorsport
Hi mate, Grant from GMH-Torana.com.au here. Great to see all your info going up about the greats of Aussie motorsport. Not real good at this Wiki stuff, but I'm sure we in the Torana community would love to see as much Torana content as possible :D Esp. love the Bond and Morris pages, and use of the pic of Rory's HDT L34 replica.

If by chance I could shoot you some stuff to put up regarding the likes of Toranafest that would be great.

Do you plan any more on Torana drivers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.9.185.137 (talk) 01:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * My current plans are to write up profiles on historically significant Australian drivers regardless of vehicle, with a focus on ATCC championship and Bathurst 1000 winners and additionally on ATCC round winners. Most if not all now appear to be covered. My current focus in on the past of the Australian Grand Prix, particularly in the 1930s and 1940s and this years Australian GT Championship. I do not anticipate further expansion of Torana drivers now the major ones, Peter Brock, Allan Grice, Bob Morris (motor racing), John Harvey (motorsport) and Charlie O'Brien (racing driver) in place. Expanding beyond that into say, for example Garth Wigston or Graeme Parsons, would be of tennuous notability. Wikipedia is not supposed to be a completeist work. Peter Janson because of his colourful character and Garry Rogers because of his subsequent success as a team owner would justify inclusion but I can't honestly think of anyone else. Barry Seton could use some expansion, including his efforts to break away from Capri racing into Toranas would be includable.
 * Possibly a motorsport section in Holden Torana, might be feasable, even more so should the Torana article be split into HB/LC/LJ/LH/LX/UC sub pages but at the moment my priority is elsewhere.
 * Toranafest, I'm guessing is a gathering of Torana owners and clubs at a venue that shifts state-to-state each year? That would be hard to justify on the basis of notability as well being as there are such events for dozens of cars in dozens of countries, and unless there is something of particular note to distinguish it from the herd it would probably not hold up to a notability challenge, so I'm unwilling to write about 'Toranafest'. My personal focus has always been motorsport rather than motoring anyway.
 * Nevertheless, thank you for taking the time to write to me. --Falcadore (talk) 02:42, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Re: Constructor Formula One drivers
Thanks. When I made the edits, I believed that it was based on constructor participation. However, your comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport is very convincing and I agree that we should have clarification on the issue. If you think that it should be based on works team only participation, then maybe the name of the categories should be changed to simply Formula One drivers by team, and we could have a separate category, possibly entitled "Non-works McLaren Formula One drivers" etc. Thoughts? Thanks again. WilliamF1two (talk) 16:00, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I disagree. Refer to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport to see my ideas on your comment. Thanks. WilliamF1two (talk) 17:15, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but this still doesn't hold water. De Cesaris has 13 categories in total, where as David Beckham has 37 categories, more than three times as many. WilliamF1two (talk) 11:15, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * 37 is ridiculous. As is Beckham really. And not really that relevant to the topic. --Falcadore (talk) 20:18, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Several things are really stupid about this comment. Firstly, a personal attack on David Beckham, who I am fairly sure you've never met, so can't really comment. And, as a fellow sportsman to de Cesaris, I would say that David Beckham is highly relevant, a good comparison between footballers and the sportspeople in question, Formula One drivers. You claim that Formula One drivers comparatively have too many categories, but they have less than a third than that of footballers?! Please, it's simple arithmetic. WilliamF1two (talk) 10:34, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * My personal opinion of Beckham is not relevant, and I'm fairly sure Beckham interest in me is much the same as his interest in you. Firstly, Beckham is almost as much a celebrity as he is an athlete, but Beckham having 37 categories has no bearing on whether 13 is a lot for a formula one driver. 13 is still a lot. In chosing Beckham you've probably selected the most extreme example possible amongst athletes. --Falcadore (talk) 11:28, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by the "most extreme example possible"? He is as much of a sportsman as de Cesaris, and barely any of his 37 categories are at all related to his "celebrity"?! You are deviating from the point. WilliamF1two (talk) 12:40, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Are there any with more than 37? --Falcadore (talk) 12:41, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Nicolas Anelka - 34
 * Ronaldo - 40
 * Ronaldinho - 36
 * Dida (goalkeeper) - 38
 * Even Franz Beckenbauer - who can definatley not be considered a "celebrity" - 45
 * Need any more examples? WilliamF1two (talk) 13:10, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * That footballers are WAY over-categorised? Nope, that's just fine. --Falcadore (talk) 13:28, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * We are definatley getting away from the point. The original discussion was about Constructor Formula One driver categories,and this discussion isn't getting us anywhere. WilliamF1two (talk) 14:19, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Then don't use off-topic items as justification. --Falcadore (talk) 21:00, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Once again, please explain how Beckham, Anelka, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Dida and Beckenbauer are "off-topic!" Your just getting grumpy now, and that really isn't appropriate. WilliamF1two (talk) 10:14, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Because they are footballers. Is a tried to explain in the other thread, Formula One drivers are not even really relevant compared to other racing drivers. Footballers are sufficiently removed that they may as well be planets. Or vegetables. Or collectible decorated toy horses. --Falcadore (talk) 10:49, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * OK then - so how can you say that F1 drivers have too many categories, if you are not willing to compare them to anything else? Formula One drivers have to many categories, but yet they have fewer than decorated toy horses. Not working. WilliamF1two (talk) 17:38, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Have a read of this then we'll talk some more. --Falcadore (talk) 20:37, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * OK. An awful lot of this is down to personal interpretation. I believe that these are useful to readers, and therefore meet the first criteria. If a reader wanted to find a McLaren driver from history, this would be a good place to look! I also believe that the fact the Lewis Hamilton has driven for McLaren is a defining factor of him, and therefore meets the third criteria. You can take a look at Overcategorization, and tell me if any of these criteria for non-creation are applicable to these categories. It is possible that navigation boxes would be a better way for showing this, but this is worth a discussion. I think a list would be tedious. I do not believe that it is controversial, it is very simple if someone has driven for a team or not. And finally - no other categories exist that would give you similar results. I really don't see where you're coming from. WilliamF1two (talk) 12:12, 22 December 2009 (UTC)