User talk:Farawayman/Archive 3

Links in SAAF Article
Thanks for all your hard work on the SAAF article. Unfortunately, 'Main' article references intext are not created until they actually exist, so somebody is likely to delete your redlinks, as I see another user has been doing. Great work on the article -- please keep it up!! Buckshot06 (talk) 05:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I was hoping that the red-links to "Main" would encourage editors to develop the pages rather than merely deleting the red-links! Farawayman (talk) 05:49, 7 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Unlike "legitimate" redlinks in running text, "main article" links are one of the exceptions. The article must already exist to be regarded as a "main" article. The main article must also be more substantial and detailed than the section that links to it (a 500 word section can't link to a 30 word stub as it's "main" article). One of the "easiest" ways to start such a main article would be to 1) develop the section until it is detailed enough to stand as a separate article. 2) split it to a separate article 3) replace the now split off section with a brief summary and a link to the newly created main article. I hope this makes sense. Roger (talk) 08:15, 7 March 2012 (UTC)


 * This rule does not make sense - there is a wealth of SAAF related WWI and WWII information out there which should be documented. Perhaps I should focus on those rather than SAAF general!  As such, I will remove the red-links; apologies for reverting your removal thereof.  Farawayman (talk) 08:41, 7 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Hold on a bit, I'm referring only to the main article link, not other redlinks in normal text - they are perfectly legitimate. I'm simply saying that something cannot be a "main article" if it contains less detail than the section from which it is linked as the "main article". That would be a case of the tail wagging the dog. You are doing really good work on many SA military articles, please don't stop. Roger (talk) 08:56, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to chime in Farawayman, the SAAF related WWI/II information should very definitely be in the encyclopedia. The thing is only which article it should be first added to. Maybe it could be added to the SAAF or Desert Air Force or other appropriate article initially, then, when it gets to a total of 20kB or so, gets split into South African Air Force in World War II or other new article. Have a look at WP:BODY - Section templates and summary style - for the rules on adding 'Main' article notes. Buckshot06 (talk) 23:22, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXXII, March 2012
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The Bugle: Issue LXXIII, April 2012
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SAAF
Hang five with the trigger finger please - you're reverting while I'm actively working on this...  Thank you. Socrates2008 ( Talk ) 11:06, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXXIV, May 2012
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GOCE July 2012 Copy Edit Drive
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SAAF Bush War
Hey Farawayman, suggest you check Operation Modular and its associated operations to see whether the SAAF was involved in those as well. Buckshot06 (talk) 21:36, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Checked - brief details and citations for Moduler added. Moduler was a long operation, officially from 22 Jun to 6 Nov 1987. There were numerous sub-operations executed concurrently, but too small to list on an overall arm of service history page. Moduler (Official spelling is "Moduler" which is incorrect!) "spilled over" into Hooper (27 Nov 87 - 13 Mar 88) which in turn "spilled over" into Packer (14 Mar - 12 May 88).  Again, each of these had sub-operations, but only the three main operations (Moduler, Hooper and Packer) are listed.  SAAF involvement in each was material.  You agree that we only list the three main operations on SAAF page level?  Farawayman (talk) 10:29, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, only the three main ops at the SAAF level. If there was a Air Component for SWA, that's be the place to list them in detail. Also, assume this - the removal of the three groups - was a mistake? I've readded.. Buckshot06 (talk) 17:44, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Also please place some sort of outline list at South African Defence Force. Buckshot06 (talk) 18:02, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This book - http://www.30degreessouth.co.za/striking_inside_angola.htm - would also be a good source for cross border ops; in SA you're probably able to get hold of it.. Buckshot06 (talk) 00:34, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I have a copy of - which covers Moduler, Packer, Hooper and events around those operations and the "wrapping up" afterwards, in considerable detail. Unfortunately the indexing is based almost exclusively on individual people's names so searching for info is not easy unless you know the names of key roleplayers or have an accurate date for the info you want. Roger (talk) 08:46, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The above two books appear to be essential for my collection. I am not in S Afr - but I will try to source them.  Thanks for the recommendation / offer for data.  Farawayman (talk) 10:49, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Buy it now don't delay, copies of this book are very hard to find and this one is seriously cheap. I've seen it advertised at up to ten times this price. Roger (talk) 11:06, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Roger - please check again. Says "not in stock" for me!  Farawayman (talk) 11:22, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

SAAF NCO ranks
Hi. Well done on the SAAF officer rank template. Do you have any NCO rank insignia we can use in the rank page? Gbawden (talk) 09:52, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Took a while though.... Done. Farawayman (talk) 19:24, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Great work. Did you crop/resize them yourself? The sizing is perfect Gbawden (talk) 22:10, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * One last question - I see you grouped WO1 and WO2 together as OR-6 - how did you work out this grouping? Thanks Gbawden (talk) 22:16, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The template does the sizing if one does it correctly - I will fix the insignia in the Army rank template. As for OR-6..... I searched for the NATO rank structure definitions but could not find a clear definition.  I suspect the codes represent pay-grades.  (See [ http://www.mpsotc.gr/dat/22DF794D/file.pdf ]) - So I took a guess.  However, there is a technical limitation with the template - in that certain categories can accept 2+ insignia while others can only accept 2.  I think SAAF should have nothing under OR-9 (i.e. reserved for Chief WO of the Forces), which means that the others need to "move right" - and here one runs into problems with the max 2 insignia for certain categories.  Let me know where they should be (i.e. which into which category) and I will try to tweak the template to get them into the right category.  Its better to do it in the form of a template - because these rank structure diagrams are used in many pages - so if we have one object which is re-used on multiple pages, we only need to edit / maintain the template in one place. Farawayman (talk) 08:15, 11 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your offer of help with the rank insignia - you seem to have a knack for it.
 * I like the way you put the ranks in to make it fit, I updated the ones I had done to do it the same way. I will move it into a template shortly. Gbawden (talk) 15:05, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I leave S A Navy officers and old SADF ranks up to you :) I have added comments into the SAAF Other Ranks template to make it more legible. Also, I moved all Other Ranks to the right, leaving OR-9 blank, as that would be occupied by the equivalent of the WO of the SANDF, which is not an arm of service rank. Same applies to General under officers.  Farawayman (talk) 20:01, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

OR9 rank
Hi. I have done some research. The US Airforce Chief master sgt of the Airforce or whatever they call it is an OR9 - our equivalent rank is SCWO. I understand your reasoning for making Sgt Major of the SANDF the OR9 but we don't we group SCWO and MCWO together as OR9? Gbawden (talk) 17:35, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I really am not sure about the grouping - the NATO codes are not really applicable in any case. So if you find some data with which we can reliably attribute (even on the basis of your above example) ranks to groups - I am happy to do so.  Alternatively, we need to build a template that does not have NATO rank codes!  Farawayman (talk) 18:08, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXXVI, July 2012
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SAN Officer ranks
Interested to hear why you've reverted the fix to the NATO officer codes. Take a look at Royal Navy officer rank insignia and Rank insignia of the South African Navy. Socrates2008 ( Talk ) 10:24, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That edit had no effect on the template, so I reverted it. The template is quite sensitive because it groups a number of columns, making it a real devil to edit!  Take a look at the history - as I recall, although you added text - the visible effect was zero.  I have no objection to changing the rank categories - I created the templates but have no clue as to what the S Afr equivalent of the NATO ranks / paygrade structure is - so I grouped them in the manner which was technically the easiest!  Hope this clarifies matters.  Farawayman (talk) 18:43, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * After a discussion with Socrates I found the NATO rank chart - to fix the template our 2nd Lt and Lt need to become OF1. I would try but you are way better with templates than I am. Gbawden (talk) 07:24, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Problems with upload of File:Gen Sir Francis Davies.jpg
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Solution
Thanks for the compliment. And thanks for jumping in to help with the images. Lets see if they review it - it took them 4 months to kick mine. And the reviewer didn't seem to give a hoot for my motivations which annoyed me anymore. Much appreciated. Gbawden (talk) 07:23, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Dont forget to link it to a Wiki page to get rid of the red-link! Farawayman (talk) 08:24, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Done! Gbawden (talk) 08:39, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Help needed
Hi. I have just got notice that the WO ranks i uploaded to commons are earmarked for deletion (and it looks like your SAAF ranks are next). Any thoughts on how to save them? Gbawden (talk) 08:58, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * hmmm... damn picture police! Will take a look later in the day.  Farawayman (talk) 09:25, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * From what I can gather they aren't buying the Non Free Symbol tag and Fair Use isn't allowed on Commons.I have uploaded the WO ranks to wikipedia. One particular admin seems to be having fun Gbawden (talk) 11:32, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know why these images were transferred to Commons in the first place! We should simply request them being transferred back to Wikipedia without any change to the fair use / license particulars!  Farawayman (talk) 11:35, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Possibly unfree File:SAAF Rank L Cpl.jpg
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Possibly unfree File:SAAF Rank Cpl.jpg
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Possibly unfree File:SAAF Rank Sgt.jpg
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Possibly unfree File:SAAF Rank F Sgt.jpg
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Images in Templates
Hi. I have had to remove Non Free images from the templates. Gbawden (talk) 07:18, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Created tables as a "work-around" - so we can retain the non-free images! Rather ludicrous rule - they cannot be used in a template, but can be in a table which displays identical to a template!  Guess its got to do with the ease of re-use.  Farawayman (talk) 21:43, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (File:102 squadron insignia.jpg)
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The Bugle: Issue LXXVII, August 2012
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I give up
The images I uploaded are being nominated for deletion by my wikihound stefan2. He doesn't seem to like that the images are in tables

This was the commment from MASEM at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content_review#File:SANDF_SCWO_Rank.gif:

This would be a case where the table approach would be a reasonable way to show the progression of insigna, barring that all other facets of NFCC are met. Strictly speaking, I would argue that some of those progressions only need two non-frees: in this case, showing the insigna for Senior Chief and Flight Sergent, and then describing how the lower ranks lack some of the elements. (Eg: "All Warrant Officer insigna use the eagle symbol, with various symbols above it to describe the rank: the Senior, Master, and Chief WO have one, two, and three stars above it, respectively, while the Senior Chief (shown) has a pair of crossed guns and a single star"). That's arguably better but possibly an issue to discuss across the board with national militia projects. --MASEM (t) 22:11, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


 * and this is the comment from Stefan2
 * All use of these files fails WP:NFG and sometimes also WP:NFCC#9 and/or WP:NFCC#10c. --Stefan2 (talk) 20:43, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks like there is no getting away from being able to use non free images in tables. I don't have the energy to re-load all the images anymore - Stefan2 is certainly taking the fun out of wikipedia Gbawden (talk) 06:39, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Military history coordinator election
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The Bugle: Issue LXXVIII, September 2012
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The Bugle: Issue LXXIX, October 2012
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The Bugle: Issue LXXX, November 2012
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The Bugle: Issue LXXXI, December 2012
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TfD: Officer Ranks and Insignia of the South African armed forces
I have restarted this discussion since it was not added to the log when you nominated the pages. Please add your thoughts to the curent discussion -- Patchy1 23:11, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXXXII, January 2013
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The Bugle: Issue LXXXIII, February 2013
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Orphaned non-free media (File:SAAF Rank Sgt.jpg)
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The Bugle: Issue LXXXIV, March 2013
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The Bugle: Issue LXXXV, April 2013
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The Bugle: Issue LXXXVI, May 2013
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The Bugle: Issue LXXXVII, June 2013
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The Bugle: Issue LXXXVIII, July 2013
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Delville wood
See talk page.Keith-264 (talk) 07:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Greetings Far, left a message on the DW talk page. RegardsKeith-264 (talk) 08:16, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * User:Keith-264/sandbox added more material to the edit.Keith-264 (talk) 12:14, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXXXIX, August 2013
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The Bugle: Issue LXXXXX, September 2013
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The Bugle: Issue XCI, October 2013
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Replaceable fair use File:Vice Admiral A. P. Putter SAN.jpg
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The Bugle: Issue XCII, November 2013
The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here. If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Nick-D (talk) 06:03, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue XCIII, December 2013
The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here. If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Nick-D (talk) 00:20, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue XCIV, January 2014
The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here. If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Nick-D (talk) 13:33, 16 January 2014 (UTC)