User talk:FayssalF/Archive AA

Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2
Regarding this case, I know a lot of discussion is floating around, but I really feel strongly about this and wanted to get more attention to this comment I made:

If any of the arbs are reading these messages, I beg of you to accept a proposal that limits TTN's actions only when challenged. Like the others, I'm still not convinced TTN has even done something grossly wrong, but it's far better than the current proposal, allows TTN to preform non-controversial actions, and addresses the core issue of force rather than content judgements.

TTN might have had a liberal interpretation of ArbCom's instructions from the last case, but something like this would be a lot more clear cut, and I have no doubt he would follow it. Perhaps this could be given a trial time of a week or two, and if not effective then simply default to the 1.1 proposal that you are supporting now. I really believe this issue comes down to when situations where forced when challenged, and not the initial editorial actions. He would learn a lot from that kind of six month (or whatever) probation, and still be able to be constructive on Wikipedia. I also believe it's something that both "sides" would be able to live with. -- Ned Scott 04:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I do respect and understand your point Ned Scott. However, please do understand that we are talking about a restriction and not a ban. In fact it may not be for the best of everyone but it clearly represents a consunsus between arbitrators and i personally believe it will benefit the project while it is not necessarily harmful for TTN who can have more time now to think about the way of editing instead of the content itself because afterall good editorialship requires good behavior and responsability. TTN could not do both of that at once. Wikipedia receives routinely requests from restricted and/or banned users who seek another chance. In the case of TTN, he's clearly getting a chance now. I just consider it a fair deal. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  00:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I still don't think it's the best option, but thank you for considering it and taking the time to explain your thoughts on it. -- Ned Scott 03:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

expanding Muslim military history task force
I have been reelected coordinator and brought up the old discussion about expanding Muslim military history to the present day. This has been an issue raised by Muslim editors when the task force was founded. It would be great if you could help expanding the articles that present what makes Islams treatment of war effect especially the Muslim warfare. I have been reading a bit on the topic and can help you with advice, but feel myself not confident enough with my limited knowledge. Wandalstouring (talk) 12:36, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Congratulations on your reelection Wandalstouring. I remember it was your suggestion that i join the WPMILHIST and i am still grateful to you for what i have learned there. I definitely must again accept your above suggestion. Do you have any topic on mind?
 * P.S. I am not well-knowledgeable enough in this area but i can still provide my limited help. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  00:37, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Well?
As an overly frustrated user I'd like to know if arbitration committee is paying any attention at all to the evidence I presented. I'd prefer a rational explanation over senseless silence. I have had my fair share from arbcom inactivity. I am quite tired of it. -- Cat chi? 03:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is a lack of attention from the ArbCom White Cat. I personally had gone through all the evidence you submitted and i am still believing that i only could have accepted it if it were the basis of a separate case though i find it partially quite unconvincing (in most of its parts as it is presented now) as a proof of anything. However, i am still open to hear about any further or new solid evidence. There would probably be a few elements worth checking but my 'common sense' tells me it should be separated from this case. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  23:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Coptic flag
Please take a look at this page and add your opinion. I would really appreciate it.--George (talk) 06:02, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I see that you are agreeing. I agree as well. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  00:56, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Re Well?
I want to clarify the following 3 sections before focusing on others. -- Cat chi? 15:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

edit point a
As an overly frustrated user I'd like to know if arbitration committee is paying any attention at all to the evidence I presented. I'd prefer a rational explanation over senseless silence. I have had my fair share from arbcom inactivity. I am quite tired of it. -- Cat chi? 03:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is a lack of attention from the ArbCom White Cat. I personally had gone through all the evidence you submitted and i am still believing that i only could have accepted it if it were the basis of a separate case though i find it partially quite unconvincing (in most of its parts as it is presented now) as a proof of anything. However, i am still open to hear about any further or new solid evidence. There would probably be a few elements worth checking but my 'common sense' tells me it should be separated from this case. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  23:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay. I'll 'walk' you through what I meant with my evidence. Its 2:45AM 3:25AM and I have an intercontinental travel tomorrow so this will probably be unsatisfactory today. I will post something more detailed tomorrow.
 * The first issue I'd like you to consider is #Real identity of Jack Merridew: Could it be Davenbelle/Moby Dick
 * Some history. Firstly please familiarize yourself with these usernames
 * Coolcat -> Cool Cat -> White Cat
 * I have changed my username twice to date
 * Davenbelle - Moby Dick - Diyarbakir.
 * Davenbelle and Moby Dick had made identical/similar edits and have been treated like the same person.
 * Moby Dick and Diyarbakir are checkuser confirmed to be the same person. Both have been banned indefinitely.
 * Stereotek - Karl Meier
 * Stereotek has changed his username to Karl Meier. I have not been in dispute with this person for the most part. I hardly ever hear from him.
 * Fadix
 * User has been banned by arbcom on the 'Armenia-Azerbaijan' arbitration case.
 * I have spent a good part of my wikipedia's various dispute resolution processes such as collecting evidence for arbcom. To date I have been involved with four arbitration cases of which two were episode/character related. As it appears, on all four of them I have been dealing with one person that got banned several times.
 * First one was Requests for arbitration/Coolcat, Davenbelle and Stereotek lasting between 24 July 2005 and 5 October 2005. If you take a glance at passed remedies you'll see "Efforts by Davenbelle and Stereotek to monitor Coolcat" which diplomatically addressed the harassment issue. The issue did not settle with the closure of the case. It lasted till 7 December 2005 (two more months) as visible at /mentorship and /mentorship talk
 * The peace and quiet was only temporary. In Requests for arbitration/Moby Dick particularly take a look at "Prior behavior by Davenbelle" and "Moby Dick has harassed other editors" Arbcom has again held a more diplomatic tone. This again did not end there. Moby Dick went to inactivity.
 * I did not really have much peace and quiet. Requests for checkuser/Case/Diyarbakir shows examples of the kind of nonsense I wasted my time with. Diyarbakir focused on Turkey and Kurd related articles in a manner which is the exact extreme opposite of my edits. Finally Diyarbakir and Moby Dick was indefinately blocked by the community on Early May 2007 with the checkuser evidence. I genuinely thought my harassment days that started on spring 2005 have finaly reached an end.
 * Now I know a Jack Merridew has seriously started editing wikipedia just a few days after Moby Dick's ban. Unlike Diyarbakir, Jack Merridew focuses on fiction related articles again in a manner which is the exact extreme opposite of my edits. He has removed nearly all of my contribution to Oh My Goddess! related articles. He went out of his way to participate in any related discussion in a manner only to remove content including discussions on templates.
 * I am not sure how receptive the wikipedia community is on the matter of this notorious stalker in the light of this thread. Each year I file a new case and spend 3 months on thwarting Davenbelle's new account. Jack Merridew would be his 4th account.
 * Based on the evidence I provided, is there anything unconvincing on the identity of Jack Merridew? I am rather tired of filing case after another and request much much more severe remedies to get this guy (Davenbelle) off my tail. No one should be required to sacrifice 2-3 months per year on stalkers.
 * This is relevant to the case because it involves tv episode related articles and a disruptive party.
 * -- Cat chi? 01:30, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I get two things out of the above... You and your case and the E&C one. If you really believe in your evidence then you don't have to waste more than a few minutes of your time posting the above as a new RfA case unless you have to gather more evidence; which necessarily has to be really solid.  Also, there's no CU findings for arbitrators' guidance. Again, the evidence as it seems now is unconvincing to me and concentrates more on you and your alleged wiki-stalkers. You may argue that the two cases are related and I would not disagree but as I see it in a whole I strongly believe they are partially if not minimally related because if you ask the majority of the involved parties they would tell you that they got a problem with an edit pattern and not with a stalker sock/meatpuppeter, etc...
 * If you decide to file a case and if your present evidence has a chance to be treated as a proof of any violation then obviously and simply the decision enforcement on the subject would override the original one. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  02:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Consider these:
 * "For the purpose of dispute resolution when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sockpuppets or several users with similar behavior, they may be treated as one user with sockpuppets." (#Identity).
 * "CheckUser results show Moby Dick edits from IPs compatible with the Davenbelle's location. Edits show a common interest in Kurdish and Turkish issues." (#CheckUser and common interests Davenbelle, Moby Dick)
 * Now consider these:
 * CheckUser results show Jack Merridew edits from IPs compatible with the Davenbelle's location. An hence compatible with the location of Moby Dick.
 * Edits
 * Diyarbakir has edited until 10 April. He stopped editing on the 10th.
 * On 11 April Jack registered and started editing and has done so until 19 April. He stop editing on the 19th. Jack focused this entire contribution between 11 April and 19 April on various non-profit organizations operating in Bali.
 * Diyarbakir made edits on 23rd of April.
 * Diyarbakir was blocked in 26 April for being a sockpuppet.
 * On 2 May Moby Dick was also blocked indefinitely.
 * Jack Merridew resumed editing on 8 May, 6 days after Moby Dick's block. From 8 May to 25 June (nearly 2 months) he made 48 edits most focusing on Indonesia related articles.
 * On July 2007 Jack Merridew made 881 edits almost entirely focusing (attacking) on fiction related articles as if someone switched off his interest to non-profit organizations in Indonesia.
 * On 27 July 2007 Jack Merridew participated on Articles for deletion/Admiral (Star Trek)‎. I started the articles in question. Davenbelle and Moby Dick has a history in participating in votes I have participated in the opposing corner. This was the 6th AfD Jack has participated with my count. Requests for checkuser/Case/Diyarbakir has a few examples.
 * As you seem to agree the two cases are related to a degree. Jack Merridew of course did not ONLY stalk me but also edited other fiction related articles in a problematic way. I cannot however understand why arbitration committee is going to disregard users other related disruptive behavior. Arbcom is a dispute "resolution process" and the dispute concerns Episode and Character related articles. There exists an alleged sockpuppet harassing one of the editors editing episode and character related articles. By basic logic it is very related if you ask me. So long as the issue surrounding Jack Merridew is not addressed, the episode and character dispute will not be resolved. Arbcom isn't supposed to be a bureaucracy.
 * -- Cat chi? 15:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Point one - You already state that ArbCom is a dispute "resolution process". The thing is the ArbCom hasn't seen any dispute resolution process followed by you to sort out the alleged stalking and sock/meatpuppetry. With no RfC and no CU request, the ArbCom cannot rely on just a user's analysis. It doesn't require an arbitrator to agree that the two cases are related for your evidence to be addressed. That's why, at the absence of CU, at least solid evidence is required. That is for the weight of the evidence.
 * The other point... This is not bureaucracy but common practice. Also, as a common practice and sense, cases are referred to on a historical and eventual basis. In other words, your case dates back to years ago and has evolved under different circumstances than those of episodes and characters case. Your case involved 2 or 3 users while this case involve many more users. Your case involves stalking and sockpuppetry according to you. The community sees the whole as two different things and i haven't seen any change regarding that. They just happened to interfer somewhere and the only existing relationship between them is you. The community may then refer to two different ArbCom desicions for convenience using referentials. Your case appears to be more complicated than the E&C since you believe it has taken a long time to be fixed. It does not mean that we cannot sort it out through the ArbCom. We are here for that reason but cases cannot take longer times. Your case can be addressed separately. We cannot keep the status quo for a huge number of articles because of a problem that can be separately resolved. The community cannot accept that White Cat.
 * The degree of relationship between the two cases is relative of course. So add to that the lack of solid evidence and a CU finding. This gives you two broken eggs. I have suggested how you can keep them for later on instead of losing them all now. --  FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  20:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I have linked you to the checkuser material twice (once on /evidence and once here). For the the third time, please click here. That is a report by a checkuser. User:Moby Dick's IP is still indef blocked. So, Moby Dick by very nature of computer science and our blocking system has to change his IP to make edits. Under that assumption Moby and Jack will not have indentical IPs.
 * I will not engage in any forms of dispute resolution process - particularly something as dysfunctional and useless as an RfC. I kindly ask you to never again mention 'RfC' to me because I am to, put it mildy, sick and tired of engaging in the dispute resolution processes for the past THREE YEARS. I have used each step including RfC multiple times. I feel it is jawdroppingly obvious that this is him. What kind of evidence would you classify as "concrete" or "solid"? I may be able to provide it if I know what you are looking for. I do not know what exactly is you want me to provide. I do believe Moby Dick has a learning curve so he will not give me any obvious evidence like he accidentally did in the past. For example User:Diyarbakir pretended being a Kurd born in Diyarbakir. He added a category:Kurdistan to many articles strictly to bait me (per RFCU evidnece). One of his major mistakes was editing as Moby Dick in march which made checkuser a possibility.
 * -- Cat chi? 21:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think what i meant by the above is that a "complicated long-time case that needs more digging cannot impede, even unintentionally, the smooth running of Wikipedia. Your case can be better dealt with separately for referential and historical reasons plus convenience and Wikipedia standards and common practice while giving the main case a chance to go sorted out on time without delays. There are many editors out there waiting for things getting to normal." As you see, you can still disregard my 'Point one'. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  01:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I see what you are getting at, but see my comment on part c. While things should run smoothly, rushing an arbcom case is more problematic. If the passed remedies are not effective in resolving the dispute more community/arbcom will be spent on the continuation cases. This happened with the first RfAr case on episode articles for example. So rushing it may not be smoothing the process. -- Cat chi? 02:31, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You may be probably right but we are talking about 'part a' here which can be better dealt with separately for referential and historical reasons plus convenience and Wikipedia standards and common practice while... -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  04:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Right. I am inclined to do as you ask and file a separate case simply for the convenience alone. I just am skeptical what good will it do (per section c). I guess what I am asking is assuming my assessment is right - that Jack Merridew and Davenbelle are the same person - what remedies can arbitration committee enact so that I do not deal with Davenbelle any more? Blocking him indefinitely doesn't appear like an effective measure. -- Cat chi? 15:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not asking White Cat and it is not only for convenience. I am explaining to you what is appropriate and reasonable and why. So let me explain it to you again that the answer to your last question can only be answered through a separate case if needed otherwise everyone is under the radar of the ArbCom and the people who help at the ArbEnforc. FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  22:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess I did not express myself well enough. I was inquiring on what arbcom can do as in what are the limits of the committee. Can arbcom take any action beyond indef blocking this user? I do not want to spend another 3 weeks on an arbitration case if arbcom lacks the authority to do anything. -- Cat chi? 23:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Can arbcom take any action beyond indef blocking this user?. Well, yes. It can be a ban and i am referring to any user who would exhaust the community patience, not necessarily this user because we still don't know. ArbCom can only indef block user accounts and its socks or meatpuppets after verifications of facts, a thing that also the Community can do without involving the ArbCom. We are not the police White Cat. The maximum the ArbCom can do is to ban someone. Now, before even indef blocking or banning anyone, we must analyze the evidence and to do so we need to hear it. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  23:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * And he can pick a new identity in less than a week. In best case scenario arbcom can ban this what I believe is an indef blocked user that is somehow still editing. You do see where I am getting at I hope... In other words I will have to put up with harassment unless I leave wikipedia and hide in a bunker assuming a fetal position. :P
 * I am fully aware that arbcom is not the police, particularly not the Indonesian police. I just am not convinced what arbcom can do to actually prevent this person Davenbelle from further harassment.
 * -- Cat chi? 00:10, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You don't have to hide in a bunker. But just don't shoot. There is RfAr out there and its doors are open. We will verify your allegations and decide. If we find out that what you say is right then the harasser will be banned. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  03:01, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I patiently waited, collected evidence and got Moby Dick banned. That was the product of 2 years of patience until 2 May 2007. I was almost completely alone during the entire time.
 * We are in March 5th so it has been about 10 months this blocked user continued editing despite the ban - assuming if I am right of course. I am very skeptical that arbcom can offer a real solution. :/
 * -- Cat chi? 03:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

edit point b
I am somewhat saddened with your statement that my evidence concentrates more on me and my alleged wiki-stalkers. That is not true or at least was not the intention.

#Common editing behaviour of some users (Meatpuppetry) demonstrates that at least these four users act as a group to dominate a particular discussion. Not just issues concerning me but on other incidents as well. There are numerous examples of such participation. Also if someone files a complaint against either one of them or if one of them files a complaint against someone standing in their way, other three are quick to come to assist. Consider the case here for example or look at the workshop of this rfar. Granted not all four show up all the time as it is more of a combination of three people than four. This is more visible with the evidence. This was not addressed at all.

The statement that there are two groups of users fighting each other is not right. The diplomatic tone on arbcom remedies imply as if the inclusionists and deletionists united in fronts. There are multiple groups of people writing articles on unrelated fictional topics and a single group of users trying to purge it in a systematic manner. There are other unrelated deletionists groups who operate more reasonably.

For example, I focus on various anime (mostly Oh My Goddess!) and Star Trek. I have a dispute with a group of users (TTN - Ned Scott - Jack Merridew - Eusebeus - ?) on Oh My Goddess! and Star Trek related articles. If the same group purges or attempts to purge "Hannah Montana" (random pick) related articles, the same people will be in dispute with a separate group of people writing Hannah Montana related articles. Me and people writing "Hannah Montana" do not work together against the deletionist group while deletionist group works together against separate groups of editors who actually write articles.

They cannot yet meet the resistance they are faced by people editing more popular TV shows so they pick on the smaller ones: User talk:TTN/Archive 8. In other words they dominate the episode/character related discussion. This is an "imposed consensus" by them. This isn't what real consensus supposed to be.

-- Cat chi? 15:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I know it was not your intention White Cat. You are probably just disagreeing with Ned Scott and some others. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  20:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Is that all you have to say on this? The way you put it is very insensitive and infuriating. Is this the way we prefer our users to edit? Work in groups and dominate discussions? -- Cat chi? 21:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It was not my intention at all. We cannot stop anyone from having deletionist or inclusionist tendencies. Plus i don't agree with the assertion that they avoid popular TV shows because of resistance there. That's not a solid assumption. If there are no canvassing or any other poor behaviour habits, then all what I can understand is that you just disagree with each other. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  01:05, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You may disagree with it but in TTN's words: Now they only have any sort of "power" over the big series like Harry Potter due to numbers, but things like that will always go slowly due to numbers anyways. I'm just sticking with picking off smaller ones, and then trying to tackle larger ones every once and a while. Once the weaklings are fully gone, it'll probably get easier to deal with the larger ones.
 * When I talk about "they" I don't refer to any random deletionist but to this group of users.
 * Someone having over 750 common edits with another is clear indication of canvassing especially if the edit behavior is anything but coincidental and instead identical. Two RC patrollers editing the same article is one thing and two users backing each other on the blanking of hundereds of pages is another. On my evidence page on the issue (#Common editing behaviour of some users (Meatpuppetry)) I show examples of these users collectively revert waring on multiple occasions. On Won't Get Fooled Again (Farscape episode) or Out of Their Minds for example all four (TTN - Jack Merridew - Eusebeus - Ned Scott) users have edited the article in a similar/identical manner.
 * If you divide the total distinct pages edited by both user X and TTN then divide it by the total number of distinct pages edited by X and then multiply it by 100 (percentage of the edits matching) you get the below values:
 * %26.77 of edits by Jack Merridew are to pages that TTN also edited
 * %15.35 of edits by Eusebeus are to pages that TTN also edited
 * %4.42 of edits by Ned Scott are to pages that TTN also edited
 * This should be telling something?
 * -- Cat chi? 02:28, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I have already stated that this evidence is not solid. Even if we disregard that aspect, the numbers above appear to be normal since the same figures can be found within any group of users working on the same WikiProject or set of articles. That is an element that the mathematical model used above doesn't take into account.
 * Seriously White Cat, %4.42? By the way, Wandalstouring is inviting me to help him write a set of articles. If I had enough time I could have %4.42 of my edits similar to those of Wandalstouring. Is it a proof of anything?
 * I confirm to you officially that all the above mentioned users are unrelated to each other. They are not the same user. No evidence of canvassing trend. As for meatpuppetry, there's no evidence of an exhibit of recruitment or canvassing. And I am sure if there would be any in the future, you'll find many admins dealing with it on the spot.
 * Again, they share the same interests as you (editing these articles) but they only share their POV between themselves. This is not an exception to this area you edit, it is a common fact around Wikipedia. What the ArbCom can do is to judge inadequate behavior. This is what we do.
 * Your quote re TTN...Now they only have any sort of "power" over the big series like Harry Potter due to numbers, but things like that will always go slowly due to numbers anyways. I'm just sticking with picking off smaller ones, and then trying to tackle larger ones every once and a while. Once the weaklings are fully gone, it'll probably get easier to deal with the larger ones.
 * TTN said and did many inappropriate things and he is not going to be restricted for no reason. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  03:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Let me get this straight so because Wandalstouring is asking you to help write a set of articles that is enough for you to completely disregard the evidence I provided? You are right that the numbers merely imply canvassing/meatpuppetary and they need to be accompanied by diffs showing evidence of canvassing which has been provided. I seriously doubt there any four users that you have voted in an identical manner on xfds (on articles all four of you have no edits) on multiple occasions.
 * Have you checked the "Extended Evidence (TTN - Jack Merridew - Eusebeus - Ned Scott: 60)" expandable evidence? These are 60 pages all four of the users have edited. I listed all of them for fairness and transparency of my evidence. Not every case of the 60 pages is valid. It is possible for four people to coincidentally edit same pages. For example all four of them editing each others talk page isn't exactly surprising. However all four of them editing Out of Their Minds in an identical manner isn't normal. Or consider True Colors (That's So Raven). These are just two examples of the many.
 * You said: "they share the same interests as you (editing these articles) but they only share their POV between themselves". Is that not the definition of canvassing or even stealth canvassing? Is the notification of a biased (campaigning against fiction related articles in general) and/or partisan (votestacking on xfds concerning topics of fiction) group of people in a secret (via email for example) manner not problematic in any way? Are you claiming that these people do not in any way communicate on/off wiki and yet coincidentally show up on hundereds of pages just hours to days after each other? These people collectively revert war and vote on hundereds of pages. Of which on all cases they collectively remove/blank/redirectify articles. They are not collectively writing articles at all. You want me to provide hundereds of diffs? If you check the actual articles they edit and the way they edit you can see that they are not mere coincidences. Canvassing and particularly stealth canvassing is not easy to document.
 * -- Cat chi? 15:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "They share their POV between themselves" is an analogy with your case White Cat. From their POV they may think that "You share your POV with users who agree with you." We are talking here about deletionist and inclusionist tendencies and I've already explained to you that We cannot stop anyone from having such tendencies unless it is disruptive. It is common to find different camps at different topics and it is not necessarily a bad thing. We only deal with behaviour and the   Fait accompli refers to this point and one of the remedies deals with it;  ''all parties remain instructed and warned.  --  FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  22:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This isn't a matter of deletionist tendencies. This is four or more self-righteous people dominating/canvassing discussions and votes together. "Fait accompli" is common sense. It has been passed many times by arbcom. What is the sanction if a group of users violate it? Certainly the TTN group as violated that many times. -- Cat chi? 23:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * We have the general sactions and editing restrictions passed as motions as explained below. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  23:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

edit point c
The remedies on the case focus on Episode and Character articles on television. The original case was filed concerning all Episode and Character related articles weather they are related to television or not. There are many non-tv characters such as the ones on video games, comics and stories. As it stands the arbitration injunction has only served to shift the dispute from television episodes to video game related articles due to its focus on "television". So the intended resolution by the arbitration committee is already tested and is not working.

Wording should not restrict this case to television. That is the entire point of #Gaming the system such as the arbitration injuction.

It is very stressful and time consuming to file an arbitration case. So I want the current case to have few to no rough edges.

-- Cat chi? 15:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * This is probably a good point though i see no relationship whatsoever to Jack Merridew and you so that it would require another case to be filed. After all, any motion can change that to cover a wider, probably infected, scope whenever it is necessary. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  20:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course you can't. This section 'c' is related to the general issue and not a spesific user. Every 3rd level (===) section of my /evidence has an indeppendent logic and rationale. I do not want to file an arbitration case on video game related articles. Just how many cases do you want or expect me to file so that arbcom will look into it? An arbitrator restricted this to 'television' not the people filing it. The dispute had never been restricted to television articles. So I cannot understand why remedies are restricted to television. -- Cat chi? 21:29, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course you can't.
 * Of course it can be done if it would be deemed necessary.
 * Just how many cases do you want or expect me to file so that arbcom will look into it?
 * White Cat, you haven't filed any case related to E&C yet.
 * So I cannot understand why remedies are restricted to television.
 * This is the locus of the dispute... The dispute centers on the existence of articles regarding individual episodes and characters from television series, and is part of a broader disagreement regarding the interpretation of notability guidelines with reference to fictional and popular culture topics and one of the proposed remedies is that all parties instructed and warned. Please read this carefully: They are warned that the Committee will look very unfavorably on anyone attempting to further spread or inflame this dispute. Anyone can file a clarification request and if problems spread further and becomes an issue that the community could not solve then a motion to the present case can be easily passed. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  01:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * An arbitration case is a very stressful, complicated and time consuming process. Filing an arbitration case is like suicide regardless how merited your case may be. For example it can very easily ruin an on going RfA and any future ones. I sincerely hope you understand what filing an arbitration case leads to for some users. I do not want to file cases for the sake of filing them. For example filing the RfAr on Davenbelle and etc was the greatest mistake I have made on wikipedia. I have been through hell ever since. So I am not very enthusiastic about bringing something in front of arbcom. I do not know what else I could have done back then, but the arbitration case did not help me at all. Neither did the second one given I am prompted to file a third one. I seriously doubt a 3rd arbitration case will do me any good given the overall dismissive-looking attitude of some arbitrators. I am telling you this in an empathic manner. It isn't like I care about a reputation (nor have one - well a very negative one). If Jack were indefinitely blocked today he would be back editing in a few days. In a month or less he would be back to the harassment campaign only he'd be just more discrete so the fourth case would be much harder for me to file. What can arbcom do? For all practice purposes? because if I am right blocking Davenbelle serves no purpose.
 * Reasonable people like me can understand what you are saying here in words without a second thought on it. When arbitration committee said "halt all activity" a number of users have already tried very hard to trick the system. They have to a degree succeeded. I hence feel arbitration committee should be more explicit in the remedy. Arbcom looking at something "unfavorably" may not be enough for an administer to take action against a user engaging in behavior sanctioned him from on "television" related articles. We have seen examples of this before on other complex cases.
 * -- Cat chi? 02:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I am talking about E&C here. I am talking about a motion if deemed necessary in the future, be it tomorrow or after years depending on the situation and the state of the disputes. You are talking about another arbitration case and you are talking about your prior cases. Again, we are dealing with "two eggs." --  FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  02:41, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't quite understand the omelet-like egg metaphor - and you got me quite hungry actualy. Right E&C... So why can't we avoid explicitly restricting this to "television" related articles and define the scope as "fiction related articles" in general? This dispute at no point was restricted to "television" related articles. People have already edited non-television related yet fiction-related articles. I can list many examples even before this arbitration case started. -- Cat chi? 15:24, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * White Cat, you are experienced enough to understand why we have motions in Wikipedia arbitration process. Also, if you are an observer of the Arbitration process, at least recently, you will notice how smoothly we can amend prior decisions everythime it is deemed necessary (a recent infamous example). General sanctions can be added or lifted when necessary. However, the ArbCom role is not solely restricted to sanctionary measures and you are experienced enough to know that guidence is also part of its role. We have to maintain this balanced approach and manage it optimally. We still believe users' general attitudes and habits to be reformed. This is contrary to the rushing you referred to above. After all, you agree that rushing is not good. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  22:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Look, I just don't want a rehash of this dispute on say video game related articles. The first rfar on episodes and characters was quite disappointing. This one is somewhat reasonable and not entirely satisfactory to me as it stands. I am very concerned about the continuation of this disruptive behavior as I have been dealing with this issue for over a year now. It is quite tiring to deal with a dispute 24/7 for a year. -- Cat chi? 23:23, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Since you agree that the decision is "somewhat reasonable" then that's great.-- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  00:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I also feel they are more than inadequate in resolving the dispute in question. -- Cat chi? 00:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * For example, if TTN asks another user to nominate an article or series of article for deletion via email or even talk page he can effectively ride around the restrictions he got. Or if he gets a new account... Any user is free to continue edit pattern that TTN made. Arbcom only singled out and sanctioned TTN but his edit pattern is shared by many others. This issue as it stands is not addressed at all. People should not go out and mass xfd or redirectify entire topics. They can initiate a general discussion involving the general community and not a deletionist group and perhaps reach to a compromise/consensus. This is not done. -- Cat chi? 00:23, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Or consider a slight topic change . These are dated 25 February, 8 days after Kirill posted to /Proposed decisions. Or 22 days after the 3 February temporary injunction. -- Cat chi? 00:29, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You say that Arbcom only singled out and sanctioned TTN and then you ask me to consider two slight topic changes by TTN?!
 * if TTN asks another user to nominate an article or series of article for deletion via email or even talk page he can effectively ride around the restrictions he got. Well, TTN would even make phone calls if he wants to but that is still just an assumption White Cat. Indeed, it is irrelevant because what is important is keeping order inside the house. We can't stop anyone from canvassing via emails but we can stop disruption at AfDs. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  03:01, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * He could even go to the neighbor if he is desperate enough... Thats no the point. I would like to see a general sanction against the way TTN edited. You know... something in the line of "don't go mass afd/redirectifiy every fiction related articles without prior consensus to do so" or "seek community-wide consensus before taking any kind of mass action".
 * Also note the articles in question were exempt from the arbitration injunction as they are video-game related. TTN could have legally redirectified any one of those. I am merely showing the shift that has already happened... Arbcom remedies are out of sync with whats currently happening.
 * -- Cat chi? 03:29, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

edit point d
I see you have changed your vote. So what is the arbcom going to do to address issues like the one on the talk page of /proposed decisions? Is that (so many nominations in so little time) not disruptive? Mind you people think it is time to lift the injunction so that they can mass afd and such. If arbcom isn't ignoring it, why aren't they doing anything about it? If this is acceptable behavior arbcom can say so.

I feel arbcom managed to resolve nothing in both cases (EC 1 and EC2). As it stands arbcom will deal with this issue again for the next 15 days with 'clarification requests' and then a third arbcom case because things will get out of control the second this case is closed and the temporary injunction lifted.

Throughout this dispute since December 2006 (the community and arbcom only started paying attention to the problem on August 2007 once revert wars and etc started but mass blanking had been happening since December 2006), I have been among the most patient people. I avoided revert wars and etc. I made many attempts to discuss the mater. If even I am frustrated by the lack of an actual resolution of the dispute by the arbitration committee, I can't imagine how frustrated are others.

I suppose for arbcom and community to pay attention to you, you ought to revert war. People who try to resolve disputes by talking and seeking consensus are not given any real attention as it appears.

-- Cat chi? 16:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Happy Birthday
--  ThinkBlue  (Hit BLUE) 00:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * FROM YOUR FRIEND:

-- Nadir D Steinmetz 01:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


 * This editor is getting old 'today' ;) Thanks guys for the cakes and balloons. I appreciate it.


 * From your friend Fayssal. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  17:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

-- S M S  Talk 22:48, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Nouvelletribune.gif
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I know you like this image Image:Photo 135.jpg as you added to Cuisine of Morocco
[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Opiumjones_23#Disputed_fair_use_rationale_for_Image:Photo_135.jpg ] Approved for use on this site by photogrgher Opiumjones 23 (talk) 00:49, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Replaceable fair use Image:Hadji.jpg
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New! BCAD drive from Milhist
Can I invite you to particpate in our new assessment drive? It's strictly for experienced wiki-gnomes and has a degree of friendly competition built-in. It involves re-evaluating around 3500 Milhist B-Class articles to ensure they match our new criteria. As ever, we're offering a range of awards as our way of expressing our thanks. The drive doesn't start until 18:00 (UTC) on March 10 but you can sign up in advance here. It would be great if you can spare the time, -- R OGER D AVIES  talk 05:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)




 * }
 * }
 * }

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Jadida.gif)
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PHG Arbcom
Hi FayssalF. I would like to share with you some updates about Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance/Proposed decision. It has just been made clear that a large part of the accusations made against me were based on a false claim being made by Elonka and Aramgar about a name "Viam agnoscere veritatis" being used for a multiplicity of Papal bulls Talk:Viam agnoscere veritatis. Both were making a false claim, intentionally of not, and have been using this claim to motivate a multiplicity of editors to make depositions against me (here, here and the numerous "Viam agnoscere depositions of the Workshop page such as ). It's clear that the discussion heated up (on both sides) but it turns out I was right to dispute their misrepresentation of historical facts. I challenge judgements which are based on such false evidence and manipulation. Another recent case of Elonka obviously misrepresenting sources has been exposed here Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance. All my contributions are properly referenced from published sources, and if sometimes we can have differences in interpretation, nobody has been able to identify a single case of fabrication of sources or whatever (as demonstrated in User:Ealdgyth/Crusades quotes testbed, embedded responses ). I am asking you to think twice before believing the accusations of such editors. Elonka is well known for throwing endless accusation at someone and spinning the truth in order to get support. Please view Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance/Proposed decision for a update of these issues. Regards PHG (talk) 16:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I am discussing this case with some of my colleagues arbitrators. Thanks. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  15:43, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

News Maintainment...
well, i agree that it will be pretty hard to maintain news for a daily bases, but if we can assign several people, i believe that it is achiveable, and perhaps we should place one or two websites where the people who will be maintaining the news get their sources from, i for a start can do it...

or we can make it a weekly news update of the Arab States news, and if it reaches a higher majority we can extand it to become a daily news update..

شو رائيك؟؟

--Arab League User (talk) 12:04, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I like the idea. You can have a look at Portal:Military_history_of_Africa and check the 'African Military News' section. I was updating it on a monthly basis and it was still a hard task. I suggest we can start with updating on a monthly basis. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  15:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Would you please...
Salam Alaykum

Would you please substitute image:Ismaili flag.svg with Image:Panjetan.jpg in Template:WikiProject Islam which is fully protected. Thanks.-- Seyyed(t-c) 14:26, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course the copyright situation of the new image should be checked. I found this on the web but I couldn't find the main source or the copyright situation of it.-- Seyyed(t-c) 14:34, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Salam Seyyed,


 * The picture used at the template is Image:Shahada.svg and not Ismaili flag.svg. Is there any ongoing discussion regarding the pictures? -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  17:21, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't want to change the main image. There is an image for Shia task force. It's name is Ismaili flag.svg.-- Seyyed(t-c) 03:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  03:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Error on WT:MILHIST
When I took a look at your statistics, I noticed when checking the hard-link to the statistics, instead of World War I for 37th place overall, the article that is truly in that position is World War II. You may need to correct the table for accuracy. -MBK004 22:58, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, WWI is 67th, with WWII 37, so there is an additional article that needs to be added to the table. -MBK004 01:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks MBK004. That's correct. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  01:43, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem, and happy to help. -MBK004 01:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, could you provide me with the full list that you mentioned in your original post. I'd like to take a look, but don't want to scroll through 5000 article names. Preferably on a sub-page created by you if possible? -MBK004 04:06, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll be creating a subpage. Meanwhile, I've sent you the notepad file by email. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  04:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. -MBK004 04:41, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you will help
User:Redthoreau has virtually taken over the Che Guevara article. He templated me with a personal attack because I have said several times that I would not edit the article anymore and gave him some 3RR warnings. I have tried to report him to 3RR (after putting up with this for a long time -- all the other editors have been driven away. Thanks if you can help! Sincerely, Mattisse  (Talk) 00:58, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I see that you are accusing each other but still working in good faith. My suggestion is that you both smile (as you are edit warring about something a bit lame to me) or get a day or 2 as a break from the article or simply forget about accusations and discuss, because sincerely this is not something complicated. I trust you can do that. If that fails, let me know again. I also see Blnguyen helping out there. Please concentrate on collaboration and suggest you discuss your edits before hitting the 'save' button. --  FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  01:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * How do you template someone? The TW is all I know, and that barely. Before that I was not able to template at all. Also, I have never successfully filed a 3RR report as ther are olways rejected as "malformed". I do not understand the directions.  Regards,  Mattisse  (Talk) 06:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

MILHIST rating for Cold War
Just in case you happen to disagree with me: :-) Kirill 02:29, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Not at all. I haven't reviewed the article myself. I just found the 3 other WikiProjects rating it a B-Class. Thanks for letting me know. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  02:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Che Guevara
Are you aware that since User:Redthoreau began editing the article in December of 2006, he has edited the article more than all the editors togeher, including those that created it in 2004 and brought it to FA status? I am the only editor that has refused to be driven off. User:SandyGeorgia, the FAR editor, warned me this was a hopeless case. Hopeless like wikipedia is becoming. I have over 44,000 edits in all fields and I am treated like a single purpose account. A bureaucrat knows the situation and has been watching for awhile. I have to trust his judgment. Regards, Mattisse  (Talk) 06:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Mattisse. With all my due respects to your contributions and efforts, I must sincerely and explicitely say that the FAR and the content issues have no merit to me as an administrator. You came here to seek help re behaviour (3RR) and what I had to do is observe, note and wait. You went on templating each other without listening to the advice of many admins. So I had to warn. The bureaucrat thing is another story I believe which I am not obliged to know at this stage. I hope this is clear Mattisse. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  06:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict}


 * How do you template someone? The TW is all I know, and that barely. Before that I was not able to template at all. Also, I have never successfully filed a 3RR report as ther are olways rejected as "malformed". I do not understand the directions.  Regards,  Mattisse  (Talk) 06:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Tw. There's a large red warning at the top of the page of WikiProject User scripts/Scripts/Twinkle which states the following:


 * ''Be advised that you take full responsibility for any action performed using Twinkle. You must understand Wikipedia policies and use this tool within these policies, or risk being blocked.


 * Twinkle is mainly used to fight vandalism. It is simply not used to revert non-vandalism. As for templating you can only template vandals using the appropriate (refer to this)


 * 3RR. But Coppertwig, Jhonston and myslef found no 3RR violation and that's why we all suggested that you both calm it down. Anyway, your file was described as Poorly formed report and not malformed. I am not sure if Coppertwig referred to the form or the content of it. You have to ask him instead.


 * As a favor, if you should ever answer me, would you answer me on my talk page as I have dificulty posting on yours yours. Thanks! Mattisse  (Talk) 06:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * No worries. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  07:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Just as a follow up, I don't understand you reply, now that time has passed. I have received mostly support. I have received support from a bureaucrat all along plus several Admins. The only people who do not support are those who do not look into it? Is that the case with you? Or did you really look at facts? Did you even look at the article stats - takes one minute.Article stats - If you fill in Che Guevara in the slot on this link you will find that since 2004 User:Polaris999 the creater of the article and the one who really brought it to FA status has the most edits. But, lo and behold, the person who started editing the article in December 2006 has the next largest number, over three times more that I do who have been here editing Cuban-related article with User:Polaris999 and User:Zleitzen for two years. Does that make sense to you? And consider that Jimmy Wales put a POV tag on it last summer and it was lock down for a month or so. Therefore all the editors have left. Now the FAR review says the POV is worse than ever -- in fact unsalvable and will lose its star because of User:Redthoreau's edits. On what basis did you arrive at you conclusion to dismiss my concerns? This typical  response of Admins, often causing people to go over the edge, results in  stupid blocks, unnecessary ArbComs and ridiculous RFC's. Is this really right? Or am I crazy and have a mental illness as User:Redthoreau has been posting around wikipedia? Sign me really curious, Mattisse  (Talk) 05:31, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * All I am concerned about are behavioural problems. Do not template users with warning of vandalism when it is not the case. Do not report users who did not violate 3RR. You cannot make an article better by behaving that way. That is not the solution and of course that is not a justification for any administrator. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  05:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I remember you now. You are the one that ridiculed me and make a joke of me on AN/I when someone made a frivolous  complaint about me. It happen while you were running for ArbCom and User:SandyGeorgia was so disgusted by your remarks on AN/I that she retracted her vote for you. (And she did not even know me -- she was appalled by your behavior).  You apologized to her. I remember it clearly. If I am ever in an ArbCom and you are still a member, I will ask for your recusal on the basis of extreme prejudice against me and also your sloppy way of "helping." Better to be honest and say you have no time than do a botched job that just causes more ill will on wikipedia. Mattisse  (Talk) 06:21, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your words and for remembering 'who I am' now, Mattisse. Does is imply that you disagree with me that if you are templating users and reporting users on the 3RR board with wrong evidence would lead you to a block? You cannot work this way. Believe me. You are stressed and my suggestion to have a break has been made in good faith. This man is not the first admin who explained to you how to handle it. All admins on your talk page agreed about the same. So what is wrong with me? -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  06:31, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you FayssalF for your assistance with these matters. I appreciate your objectivity and would be very grateful if you could keep an eye on things with the article if you have time. Or maybe even join in to assist on the article if you wish. :o) Red thoreau (talk TR 07:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Likelihood of a pass

 * Requests for arbitration

Does the case has any chance of getting accepted? What do you think?

-- Cat chi? 15:31, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I can't predict White Cat. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  19:54, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Mathmaticaly speaking there are 15 arbitrators 1 inactive 4 voted oppose 2 votes support. So 15-1-4-2=8 arbitrators are left to vote. To have a net 4 support I need the support vote of 6 more (4 of them to negate the opposition) arbitrators and get no opposition. Feels like a lost cause. So I cannot go to arbcom. Processes like WP:SSP and WP:RFCU will not work on complex cases like this one if my past experience in them is any indication. Such cases are generally declined. I do not believe Sam Blacketer is aware of the realities of the ground with his statement on the RFAR case. If I had "divisive administrative actions" why the heck would I even waste time filing a case? What would be your recommendation from here on? -- Cat chi? 23:08, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If the case is rejected then it is not the end of the world for you as an editor. Administrators have been empowered, through most of the recently closed cases and I am sure if X harasses Y, Y edit warred tediously, X attacks personally Y, etc they would be there. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  00:46, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It had taken me 2 years of patience to get Davebelle banned the first time. Davenbelle knows exactly where the red line of harassment is. He stays at a comfortable margin to avoid detention. He games the system. He also adopts personalities. He was supposed to be a fanatical Kurd with his account User:Diyarbakir. -- Cat chi? 18:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The following is meant to be constructive criticism. I would like to see something gets done about it. Eventualism suggests this problem will eventually explode if nothing gets done about it. I had been able to identify such time bombs in a timely manner before so I think I have a rational logic below. I am just pointing out my observation based on my recent experience and hope some or all of these issues are fixed. I am not trying to insult anyone or anything. Merely pointing out things on how it looks on my end.
 * I think Arbcom is becoming less of a dispute resolution process and more of a bureaucratic and incompetent body that exists only to glance at content disputes. And even then, in such disputes arbcom's rulings typically fails to resolve anything, just mere requotations of our policies and common sense which people do not follow before, during and after the arbitraton case. We have seen this in Episodes and characters 1 RFAR. Arbcom will almost never touch user disputes. Arbcom is meant to look at those not content related issues.
 * The slow speed of how arbcom operates when matter concerns a user dispute is also an issue of interest. Requests for arbitration/September 11 conspiracy theories gets accepted just two days after it was filed on 17 March despite being a content related dispute. On the other hand my case has been dangling since 13 March or in other words 8 days ago and looks like it will not get accepted. About a week ago arbcom was almost out of cases all new ones were being declined and existing ones were promptly closed just hours apart from each other (alas 01:02, 14 Mar, - 21:12, 13 Mar - 22:46, 12 Mar). I have never seen Template:ArbComOpenTasks this empty. I am really skeptical on how much attention every individual arbitrator gave to each of the cases. If the real issue is that arbcom is unable to handle the workload the number of arbtrators can be doubled.
 * Some arbitrators go out of their way to ignore me or at least give such an impression. Arbitrators like Kirill Lokshin or FloNight or FT2 will not respond to my inquiries on their talk page. FloNight won't respond to me on IRC for the past 2 months (or more). FT2 will almost always ignore anything I post to him on IRC. On very rare occasions FT2 did respond to me pointing out he was busy and he would look into the case in "a few days" but that "few days" had never come to date. A new arbitration case or matter seems to always have priority over me. Yet he is quick to respond to comments by anyone else it seems.
 * Whats more, Arbcom is taking the advice of a person that regularly trolls me on IRC (Sceptre). This is not exactly building my confidence towards arbcom and instead is obliterating any traces of such confidence that is left.
 * I believe I am not the only person that has lost faith in processes like dispute resolution and specifically arbcom. In any community where there is a lack of confidence in peaceful ways to resolve problems, people resort to violence in small manageable groups. I can give many real world examples but that would be a mere distraction. On an encyclopedia that translates as disruptive activity. We have seen many examples of mob editing not just in the issue of character and episode RfAr. I see the same issue on many other disputes. The reason arbcom is dealing with more and more disputes is because fewer and fewer people have confidence on the unbearable speed and uselessness of the dispute resolution processes with every passing day. This is destroying the project called wikipedia.
 * -- Cat chi? 23:08, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * This is fair criticism. However:
 * The emptiness of ArbComOpenTasks is relative. It can be a positive sign of a hard working ArbCom. Take it at face value.
 * I am not familiar with administering via IRC. I've only been there twice if I am correct.
 * A couple of arbitrators have been willing to look further into the matter. There are certainly many administrators out there who can help better (confirm or not the results of CU, block disrupters, etc...). If I were you, I'd concentrate on my work and if I 'do' believe that I am being harassed deliberately (attacked, reverted most of the time, etc...) I'd report it. Just don't report every single misunderstanding as a Wikipedia policy violation. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  00:46, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Right. But the speed of their closure made it look like it was rushed.
 * They do not even bother responding to their own talk page...
 * No admin will touch something arbcom refused to touch. All my edits to articles I care about (Oh My Goddess! ones) on fiction related topics have been redirectified by the same user. He interferes with my commons related edits as well as interferes my edits related to ASALA. I have been stalked for three years. I have quit Armenia and Turkey related topics for anime. I do not want to show interest to a topic because whatever topic that might be, will be attacked and destroyed by Davenbelle's next account. Such was the faith of Oh My Goddess! Because of this user (aka Davenbelle) I am still indefinately banned from mediating...
 * This is not a new user, I have no idea why he is being treated like one.
 * -- Cat chi? 18:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you
Thank you for good advice in article Fairness of Russian presidential election, 2008! I will keep this in mind while editing any other articles on political subjects. With regard to Russian presidential elections, all my sourced and relevant edits were simply deleted by a group of three Russian users, User:Miyokan, User:Sbw01f, and User:Krawndawg. First of them even came to my talk page and requested that I stop editing "his" article Russia. First, he asked me: "do you want to start a war?" . Of course I do not. Then he said: "if you want to continue antagonizing me I can come back there and then some" meaning articles that I edited in the past . Under such circumstances, I would rather edit something else. Thanks again, Biophys (talk)

Quick question
Not that it matters too much, but would you please explain to me why you think that this edit is not trolling? Thanks, Ice Cold Beer (talk) 07:29, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It is the difference between someone disrupting deliberately, intentionally or not. And since he has made very good contributions on his way then he still can be misidentified as a troll. I am dealing with his behaviour. Thanks. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  07:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello
Please remove inapproriate language from your edit here before you want someone to discuss that with you. Thanks. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  07:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * OK! Great!  Which part exactly is "inappropriate" and by whose standards exactly?  Thanks.  Let me know, so that I can do whatever it is that you command / demand of me.  And the words that you want removed, please let me know what I can / should / am allowed to replace them with?  Thanks for your help!  And your concern!  Much appreciated!  Thanks!   (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 07:31, 21 March 2008 (UTC))


 * I believe "h****'s a**" is inappropriate. Even if it is appropriate to your standards, nobody would listen to you after that.  --  FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  07:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Funny premise that anyone was listening prior. Thanks for the laugh!  Really.  But, getting back to business ... you didn't answer my question.  What word will you allow me to use in its place?  Thanks!  Let me know!   (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 07:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC))


 * It's cool that you found that 'funny'. At least you could laugh ;) Anyway, there are no words allowed and others not. We don't have time to create a page listing all the **s words in the world in order for everybody to act civily. It's only common sense.
 * P.S. Everybody was listening prior and probably no one disagreed about closing the thread. Please follow Theresa's advice at the AN/I and happy editing. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  08:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

A question for you
Yesterday I !voted oppose at Requests for adminship/Bloodlila, then something that seems quite unorthodox to me occurred. Sarcasticidealist un-transcluded the RFA here without closing it. Bloodlila put the RFA back on the page here, where it was promptly removed again within one minute by you with this edit (again, not closed). You then proceed to indefinitely block for "edit warring" according to Bloodlila's talk page. Looking at Bloodlila's contribs, they reverted one edit. Now, I was suspicious that this account could be a sockpuppet, since it seemingly found RFA with its first edit, however, according to your message on Bloodlila's talk page, the checkuser came up clean. As far I know, every user can have an RFA, which may or may not be closed within minutes per WP:SNOW, but this RFA was never closed, just removed. This just doesn't seem like the proper procedure. Can you let me know your reasoning behind this? I don't think the block is justified and I also think that the RFA should be closed per snow, not just disregarded. Useight (talk) 16:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * For the record, please post your reply at Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship so we can centralize the discussion. Thanks. EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 18:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your concerns. I've just commented at the Rfa talk. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  01:32, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Systematic bias in Wikipedia - A solution
Hi Fayssal,

How are you doing? Hope everything is going well with you. I have written the following essay on the topic of "Systematic bias in Wikipedia - A solution".

Description of the systematic bias:

The economic basis for the academic's life is dependent on publishing papers. If they want to join a reputable institution, they have to become famous too. How can they do that, well all they need to do is to tell people: "so far you all thought that a matter was like this, now I tell you that you were all wrong" and then come up with a new theory. This is not so bad when it comes to empirical sciences because one can do new experiments BUT when it comes to history new data would be created everyday. The original sources are all there.

So, how do the academic live? Academics are very lucky that most of the history is not sufficiently well sourced (and it is the academics themselves who define "sufficient"). Here is what makes academics look innocent: if something happens today, witnesses after some time start saying different things; what can we then say about something that happened 1400 years ago. This sad truth has given the academics enough flexibility to create their own curious theories, to project their own cultural tendencies and secular views back into the history. Let's take the example of Islam: The academic don't have to openly express what they think of Muhammad; it goes implicitly into their writings and evaluations. Suppose the academic is living in a society that is obsessed with something, it imposes its understanding to its scholarship of the past. Most of the academic works used in Wikipedia are unfortunately published by universities located in US, or Europe.

Let's take the example of someone wanting to write a biography of Muhammad. For that matter, he has to first create a rough overall image of him. It is then under the light of this overall image that the scholar proceeds to evaluate which reports are sound, and how the sound ones should be interpreted. The formation of that rough overall image does not, and can not, be merely based on the early written reports of Muhammad. Much of it consciously or unconsciously comes from the underlying biases of the established intellectual tradition of the time, the scholar's own values and his cultural values, plus his own past experiences putting aside the politics. The same model of course applies to the Muslim biographies on Muhammad, including the earliest ones.

The relation of scholarship and politics is very obvious. Here is a quote from Journal of Semitic Studies, Oxford University Press: "The relationships between the Jews and the Arabs throughout history have been the subject of numerous studies over many centuries. However, as long as the continuous Arab-Israeli conflict has not found a solution, historians will search through the past in order to find new evidence to prove the antiquity of the tension between the two communities and to illuminate its causes. The vicissitudes which have marked the lives of the Jews who lived under Arab rule or side-by-side with Muslims add to the complexity of the issue, and a great many of the assertions about Arab-Jewish relations made by scholars and amateurs alike are sheer speculation. This is particularly true of writers who strongly identify with either camp and have become emotionally involved in the subject. Consequently, the views they usually hold are often unbalanced, if not biased."

Solution:

What Moulavi (Jalaluddin Rumi) said in relation to the philosophers of his time can be more accurately applied to current academia: "'The rationalists' legs are wooden Wooden legs are very fragile."

There are many academic theories, but how can one choose among them? One needs to purify his heart and have a healthy spiritual life. The Qur'an (and all other religous traditions) put emphasis on practical aspect of man: "None shall touch it except the purified" (Qur'an 56:79).

Wikipedia articles, as of now, are systematically biased because their representation of religous topics are so different from the way the religions traditions themselves represent themselves through an emphasis on practical advices, do-and-don'ts, rituals, or manuals. Not that there is nothing of that sort in the articles but they seem to be so under-represented in most of the Wikipedia articles. Maybe we should have a "wiki-practical-menus" just as we have "wiki-source" and other wikis? --Be happy!! (talk) 09:05, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * There is a bit of discussion between myself and Gren about the above proposal. Please find it on my and Gren's talk page. Thanks --Be happy!! (talk) 01:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Berbers
We're up and running! Please visit and contribute at WikiProject Berbers! Thanks! Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 18:25, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I was looking at Betacommand's case

 * Requests for arbitration/Betacommand 2

Do you think a similar switch in fellow arbitrators is possible? I am not suggesting you talk behalf of them, on the contrary I would never do such a thing.

Could you talk to them and perhaps relay what I am trying to say to them as I think you have a good understanding of the situation. I seem to be very poor at expressing myself to arbitrators.

-- Cat chi? 20:20, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi!
Hi! Remember me? You were the first one too write on my talk page, anyways:



Obaidz96 (talk • contribs • count ) Please reply on this talk page, AND on my User Talk Page. has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend and remember :"All men are created equal, but ambition, or lack of it, soon separates them."! Cheers, and happy editing! Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Blanc-de-Chine or Dehua porcelain
Hello, FayssalF, I come to bring a news regarding a merge proposal initiated by User:Marshall46. Among the three articles, you created the second one. Please give your input at Talk:Blanc-de-Chine. Thanks.

--Appletrees (talk) 01:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Blanc-de-Chine
 * 2) Dehua porcelain factories
 * 3) Dehua white porcelain in Japan

PHG
Whoops, looks like we cross-posted! I saw that you said you were waiting for my statement, but I'd posted just a few minutes before you. It's my thoughts on the matter, plus a suggestion for an amendment: Requests for arbitration. Let me know if you have any questions, Elonka 02:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I found out later. My mistake! -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  03:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Web 2.0
It's hardly vandalization, the quote added was accurate and succinct. Continued reversions only serve display the sort of attitude that wikipedians are legendary for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.248.122.54 (talk) 03:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

But hey, run with it. Good job at making new users feel unwelcome. 70.248.122.54 (talk) 03:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Not at all. We just don't put these kind of stuff into articles before reverting a couple of times... Web 2.0 is a simple concept - you make the content and they make the money. . -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  04:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Blue and white (porcelain)
Hi, FayssaIF, I come to ask you to move this article to Blue and white porcelain. I don't think the parenthesis is necessary but I could not move it due to double direct. The move seems uncontroversial and I don't know RM procedure. You're the creator of the article and fortunately an admin, so can you move the title? Thanks.--Appletrees (talk) 12:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Done... including fixing the double redirects. Thanks Appletrees. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  14:13, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your help! --Appletrees (talk)

User Page
Hi FayssalF. You seem to be arguing on Arbcom for my User Subpages to be included in my restrictions from editing Ancient History or Medieval History articles. Please note that I manage vast quantities of images from museums around the world (such as User:PHG/Metropolitan Museum of Art), which indeed could be interpretated as "related to ancient history". I have however been "encouraged" by the commity to keep contributing such images, as well as material for Talk page discussions and suggestions, and User Subpages are an essential means of achieving this. Could you kindly reconsider? Regards; PHG (talk) 17:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * There is something which happens most of the time here -every side of the debate interprets policies the way they see it fit for their arguments. This natural process can be both harmful and beneficial to the project. Well, while I personally don't see any problem in people interpreting policies, as that is part of consensus building and discussions to improve articles -depending in which context one puts it, I consider strict and stubborn interpretations of policies as disruptive and unproductive.


 * This is how I see it. You haven't violated anything when you created a 19th century's article while being restricted from editing ancient and medieval history articles. But there was no doubt that you used very weak and unknown references. Remember that the arbitration case concerned the use of references. You already know how I take the issue of reliability of references to heart.


 * I don't have to reconsider but probably to clarify instead. You've got excellent images on that particular subpage and I see no single reason to delete it at all under the provision that they should not be used to advance POVs based on questionable sources. If I am interpreting policy in a strict manner I'd ask you to delete the subpage. However, of course not assuming bad faith, I'd like to be assured of the verifiability of the description of the images. In the abscence of the contrary, I would like to see the subpage being kept as I consider it a place where you can organize and work on them. Any violations of the above terms would lead to the deletion of the subpage while keeping the images on Commons. I congratulate you and thank you for your images' work.


 * Which talk page material and suggestions you are referring to? Could you please provide me with some diffs of the community's support? --  FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  18:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi FaysalF. Thank you very much for your response.
 * The material I use for France-Japan relations (19th century) is actually probably some of the best there is on this subject. Naturally, there are not many English-language sources on such a subject, but mostly French and Japanese sources. Especially the French sources I am using are considered quite excellent in this area of knowledge: Christian Polak has been described as "The best historian of Franco-Japanese relations" by Philippe Pons, correspondant for Le Monde in Japan. Keiko Omoto is also an excellent source.
 * Despite some insistant misrepresentations by some users, I am actually highly meticulous with my sources: I quote material extensively (although anyone can say that my interpretation of the context is not exact, which I have been able to contest in each instance), and for photographs in museums I systematically take a photograph of the poster (notice/ label) to the artwork for future reference. If anyone disputes my labelling of a given photograph, I can easily provide proof.
 * To answer your question, I was encouraged to contribute through Commons and on Talk Page in the Arbcom resolution:
 * ""PHG is encouraged to continue contributing to Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects in other ways, including by suggesting topics for articles, making well-sourced suggestions on talkpages, and continuing to contribute free-content images to Wikimedia Commons.""


 * This is why I am gladly providing material in the areas I can. I consider that retricting my usage of User Subpage is actually in contradiction to the Arbcom ruling (which specifically states "articles"), and a motion to include my User subpages was even rejected by the Arbcom . Best regards. PHG (talk) 18:48, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I've received a request to comment on this thread. I haven't received much explanation of what I'm being asked to comment on, so I'll take a stab in the dark. The photos at User:PHG/Metropolitan Museum of Art are highly encyclopedic and well composed. As I've said before, PHG is a talented amateur photographer. Although I haven't done a complete survery of his photo uploads, in every case I've checked (several dozen overall) the metadata has been consistent with one person who upgrades his camera about every two years. There may be issues with his image scans and there have been very serious issues with his sketches, but as far as I know he's never claimed another photographer's work as his own.

That said, there may be a different issue here regarding museum photography policy. From the Metropolitan Museum of Art website:


 * Gallery Photography Policy


 * Still photography is permitted for private, noncommercial use only in the Museum's galleries devoted to the permanent collection. Photographs cannot be published, sold, reproduced, transferred, distributed, or otherwise commercially exploited in any manner whatsoever. Photography is not permitted in special exhibitions or areas designated as "No Photography"; works of art on loan from private collections or other institutions may not be photographed. The use of a flash is prohibited. Movie and video cameras are prohibited. Tripods are allowed on weekdays only, and only with a permit issued by the Information Desk in the Great Hall.


 * For press and other special photography, including filming and videotape projects, call the Communications Department (212-879-5500, ext. 3441) during business hours or fax 212-472-2764. See The Image Library for any requests regarding photographs of works of art owned by the Museum for any purpose other than private and noncommercial.


 * The Museum reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to withhold and/or withdraw permission to photograph on its premises or to reproduce photographs of objects in its collection.

So unless PHG produces evidence of permission from the museum's communications department, he has violated the agreement he made when he purchased an entrance ticket by publishing his photographs from that museum on Wikipedia. If he had uploaded them to his own private website then that would be an issue between him and the museum, but by uploading them to a WMF website he might have created a legal exposure for the Foundation. I'll have to refer you to Mike Godwin regarding that angle of things.

On the other hand, there's something I can comment upon. I'll use the example below to explain.



The key thing I'm curious about is whether PHG used flash photography and whether he used a tripod. Flash photography is not permitted under any conditions, and the use of a tripod requires a permit from the museum front desk.

The angle of the glare spot on the casket is consistent with the angle of photography, or it might be a museum light from above and behind the photographer's left shoulder. It is just about impossible to avoid creating glare when using a built-in flash on that type of polished and curved surface. But look at the exposure time on the image metadata: 1/6 sec. That's a very long exposure. The human hand can hold a camera steady at about 1/60 sec; sometimes I get away with 1/15 sec if I prop both elbows and hold my breath. A hand-held 1/6 second would simply be a blur. Furthermore, the f-stop shows the aperture is wide open; I'm certain he's not using a flash and I'm equally certain he's using some kind of artifical brace to hold the camera steady. The museum policy doesn't mention monopods, but they probably treat them the same as tripods and I doubt a monopod would be feasible for an exposure this long.

Those and a few other reasons lead me to the same conclusion about the other photographs from this group : ambient lighting with a tripod, which would have required a special permit. I lived in New York for ten years and know this museum well; its guards are quite diligent. It's inconceivable that a visitor would have taken four dozen photographs without a pass (the guards usually stop a visitor as soon as they see a tripod, and a new guard questions it afresh each time the visitor enters a new room). So PHG would have had to stop for a pass, at which point he would have been apprised of the museum's full terms of photography.

So in summary, I can tell you he isn't damaging the pigments on thousand-year-old artworks by using a flash, but I'm also darn near certain he knew he was violating museum policy when he uploaded these photos. If he wanted to challenge the legitimacy of that policy I think he ought to have done so on his own personal site, or at least informed Wikimedia Commons proactively and opened a discussion on the issue himself.

Please keep me informed about how this develops because I may have to open that discussion at Commons; I'm an administrator there. I anticipate it will be thorny. The museum hasn't lodged a complaint as far as I know, so I'd like to find out where the Foundation stands on this. In the meantime I'll contact one or two other Commons administrators and see whether they've dealt with something like this before. Durova Charge! 20:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * How interesting... Durova, I am delighted you like my images, and I am delighted to be able to contribute them to Wikipedia. So, to the technical points: I never use a flash in a museum, and I don't possess (and never used) a tripod. I do pride myself in having a rather steady hand though :). I often can go down to 1/6 and beyond by either standing very balanced (feets spread appart, elbows to body, I even once put the camera ontop of my head :), or, when I can, steadying the camera to a stiff surface (angle of a wall etc...). Then, if the photograph is blurry, I can increase definition and grain with a photo software. Please also note that my camera is a "steady shot" (it is a 300$ SONY Cyber Shot DSC-T10, and it does say "Super Steady Shot"). I am glad I can make such quality photographs with such standard camera.
 * Regarding photographs at the Met, I think there was already a full discussion on Commons, and it was deemed as appropriate and consistant with Commons rules. Best regards PHG (talk) 11:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, after checking this out quite thoroughly (Commons and Foundation level) it turns out that this is a matter between PHG and the museum. Any risk he assumes in violating his agreement with the museum by uploading the photographs is his risk alone and does not transfer to WMF.  That's the limit of my concerns here, so good photography!  Durova Charge! 02:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Quite significantly (and representatively), Elonka keeps "putting up new fires" as she starts losing traction on an argument. She had me blocked unduly by mis-representing my edits and mis-interpreting the Arbcom decision (my request for protection at Requests for arbitration), but she responds by making accusations about another article I created France-Japan relations (19th century). Then, as this article is salvaged and appears to be not so badly sourced after all (naturally French and Japanese sources can only be central to this subject...), she asks another user to throw in comments at my photographs, a case which had already been heard in my favour on Commons. I am again asking to be protected from this kind of behaviour, which is actual the object of my "Request to amend prior case". Best regards. PHG (talk) 12:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Methodology
 * I have never used my administrator tools in any way with PHG. As for "misinterpreting" things, I would be happy to provide a subpage of evidence which details PHG's actions since the ArbCom case, and then I think it would be very clear who is misrepresenting things. FayssalF, would this be useful for you? --Elonka 04:01, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I am with everything which can stop this mess. I believe you both know exactly what to do but fail to do it. We could have saved a huge amount of time if PHG started to understand the importance of reliable sources and if Elonka stopped digging further even after being asked to cool it down. My advice to both of you has been posted here. But anyway, if you both believe that bringing further evidence is worthy then do it. If not then please give a break to each other. --  FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  03:11, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * "[P]lease think hard about whether or not you feel that you are genuinely suited to keep on being an administrator" — that was the advise Elonka extended to yours truly. El_C 04:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Something that I know... Since accusations are mutual, users are advised to let others deal with that. It appears that we got two issues here (PHG issues with sources and Elonka's digging)... It just reminds me of the Matt57's case when Matt was doing just what Elonka is doing now. Who knows if PHG could do better and listen for once to what others say if Elonka gets back a bit? In simple words - why do we have to deal with two issues when we can easily deal with one? What a waste of time!
 * Something that everybody knows... There are many genuinely suited admins who can deal with that (i.e. El C) - both at the AE and other venues. Isn't that true? -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  14:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it's true, Fayssal, and I very much appreciate your confidence.


 * As the admin who probably handled more AE reports than anyone else (save, perhaps, Thatcher), and as someone with professional historical training, I think I could make an appreciable positive difference in helping to resolve this dispute — overall, not just the latest incident.


 * But the levels of toxicity that Elonka has injected to it, both the familiar "digging" and the disproportionate, bad faith hostility toward myself, means I'm likely to stay away; I just don't have the patience for that much negativity (I already promised to stay away from that report, since it appeared to have sent Elonka spiraling in multiple directions ).


 * I also reiterate that an indefinite block was just not the way to go at this time, so I fully stand behind my unblock. Shukran, El_C 06:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Requesting semi-protect lock
Hello Fayssal, could you be so kind as to add a semi-protected lock on the Yasser Arafat article. There's been ongoing vandalism of the article for ages now and its all coming from anon-IP users or unestablished users, mostly from the former. --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Since I'm already here, I took care of it. El_C 06:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

ja jou etc
re the mediation where is it? also you have protected BKL versions of all pages with all his non sense edits. Opiumjones 23 (talk) 21:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I've just left a note at User:Fayssal/JK. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  21:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

sukran Opiumjones 23 (talk) 13:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

YOU WOULD WANT TO SOORT THIS OUT AS BKL IS MOZ=W ATTACKING OTHER PAGES EG HAMRI AND OTHERS CHECK HIS CONTRIBS BOpiumjones 23 (talk) 17:24, 20 April 2008 (UTC) TWO DAYS HAS BECOME TWO WEEKS

Pope Gelasius I
First off, I am not trying to underhandedly remove the status of a pope that has been identified previously as Kabyle. That is why I am asking for input and good documentation for his background. I have looked, and not found anything outside of blogs that have substantiated that he was ethnically Kabyle. Any help is appreciated! Thanks, Stealthound (talk) 04:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Answer... Please use this useful tool (searching Google Scholar). Make sure to click on found at the bottom of each listing. --  FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  16:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Frumuşeni
I would like to discuss with you why I think the claim about the Frumuşeni mosaics in the zellige article improbable or a misunderstanding of the source:

- Huge physical distance: the zellige article claims that zellige appeared in Morocco in the 10th century. Frumuşeni is in present-day Romania, near the Hungarian border. Direct influence seems highly improbable between these two distant regions. Far more plausible to search the source of inspiration in the Middle East or Spain which had strong ties in trade with Morocco.

- Low importance: Frumuşeni doesnt't belong to the great mosaic works of art, it has some local and scientific importance because of its northern location and singularity but it's not on a par with the great mosaics of Constantinople, Venice, Sicily or Damascus. I can't imagine how this poor little northern monastery could be the source of this highly important Islamic art tradition.

- Dating and art school of the Frumuşeni mosaics are controversial. Although some sources claim that they are Byzantine and belong to the 9-10th century the majority opinion is that they were made only in the 12th century for the Catholic Bizere Monastery. Even the existence of the earlier Orthodox monastery remained unproven while Bizere certainly existed. In this case (ie. they are western works from the 12th century) zellige simply predates the Frumuşeni mosaics so they can't be the source of inspiration.

I think you should look up again the source. I can imagine that the author drew comparison between the artistic style of zellige and the Frumuşeni mosaics but in this case you should cite here the whole paragraph so we can establish its real meaning. Zello (talk) 20:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Zello. I am sorry for this late reply. I have to agree with you since your points are far more clearer than my weak source. I am removing the sentence from the article. Thanks for your concerns and, of course, your patience. Much appreciated. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  17:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Need Help
Dear Fayssal... assalam alaykom I need your support for the following Template deletion... following this link

the apparent situation is that some Assyrians have taken this as an insult to their non-Arab Identity, and wish to decrease the role of pan-Arabism in the everyday life of the average Arab in the Arab World...

please support this template that includes the 50 largest Arab cities, by supporting it to be kept.

ma3 esalamah

--Arab League User (talk) 23:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)