User talk:FayssalF/Archive L

Infobox
Trying to reach an infobox consensus here:. Please can you weigh-in with your opinion?129.127.28.3 11:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Szvest 21:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Request for semiprotection of Qur'an
Salam. I see too many vandalism by anonymous editors in Quran article. . So would you please semiprotect this article.--Sa.vakilian 12:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. Szvest 21:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

SETI
Howdy! I've reverted an action of yours and I'd like to discuss the reason why in SETI Talk. I've posted here and look forward to your feedback. - C HAIRBOY (☎) 21:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I've verified again the material and i agree w/ you. It fails to pass the NPOV test. Thanks for the note. -- Szvest 21:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Infobox Fields
Thank you for casting your vote on the Einstein infobox. Please now go to to give your opinion on how you want the individual fields modified. SuperGirl 08:16, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Help and ideas needed
Hi,

Hi remember me, sorry you've been spammed, but I hope you'll find for a good reason, I'm currently looking for help with a new project. I would like to harmonise all the warnings and templates we issue, with goal to creating a standard look, format and content to the messages. Even if you use VP, VS or any of the other vandal tools out there, I still feel this is worthwhile. Please visit here for further information, and leave me a message if you're interested or tell me to get lost ;) if you haven't the time. Khukri ( talk. contribs ) 13:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Turkish propaganda on the Assyrian cuisine page.
Khoikhoi once again is stepping in when he shouldn't. Him and Mackeral or whatever his handle is are placing pro-Turk propoganda claiming that Baklava is of Turkic origins when I clearly linked 5 different links all stating Assyrians invented it in the 8th century. Even after I stated that others make the claim as well. They used an insulting and condescending remark stating that they weren't "scholarly." This biased crap has no place on this encyclopedia.סרגון יוחנא
 * Howdy סרגון יוחנא, there may be a language barrier at work. I reviewed their request for reliable references and it doesn't seem to be obviously condescending.  If Baklava is of Assyrian origin, then keep digging until you can find references as solid as what they've provided.  Also, try and work this out with the editor in question on his own page before crying foul, usually an assumption of good faith can lead to wonderful things. - C HAIRBOY  (☎) 14:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

On this day
Salam. We can participate in adding some Islamic occasions in the Main page:On this day. Like Selected anniversaries/October 23. But there are two problems. First, the lunar month doesn't begin at the same time in all countries:Sighting Reports for Ramadan 1427 and Sighting Reports for Shawwal 1427. Second, these pages (Selected anniversaries/Recent changes) are protected and I think only admins can edit them. What's yur idea. Also I propose adding "On this day" in Portal:Islam--Sa.vakilian 03:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Allegations of anti-Semitism
You're pretty quick with the revert button, FayssalF. You also seem to think that there is something POV or otherwise controversial about stating that Hamas officials engage in anti-Semitic rhetoric. Do you intend to source some material for the Hamas article to back up your interesting thesis? Dasondas 22:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Help with Ahmadinejad article
I've been having problems editing the article on Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. The article is already biased. It's listed under the category, "anti-semitism," which was apparently a compromise after people complained because the article was listed under the category, "anti-semitic people."

In any case, all I was trying to add was the information regarding Ahmadinejad's alliance with Jews against Zionism. But those watching the article won't allow it. So, I thought I'd ask someone such as yourself for help. Take a look at my edits (now reverted) and the talk page, to see what I mean. Robocracy 00:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Un petit bonjour
Salut Faissal, juste pour dire un petit bonjour et aussi 3ouacher mabrouka :) pendant que j'y suis !. Rak khaddam !! je suis impressionné 14 000 edits, tu m'as laissé vraiment loin derrière :). Moi j'ai un peu disparu ces derniers temps de la circulation, j'étais un peu occupé ailleurs. je m'y remets lentement. Au fait, j'aime aussi bien la nouvelle organisation de ta page, elle est très claire est synthétique. A plus --Khalid hassani 15:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Islamic extremist terrorism
Hey. I keep reverting the addition of the quotes of guy who crashed his car into a group of students (latest revert). Do you mind making a fuller comment on whether you think it belongs? I think silly giving undue weight to this but Hypno is bound and determined. Marskell 07:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Svest. DAde has reverted this article five times in 24 hours. Can he be banned again? Thanks ... --Lee Hunter 20:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Need help in creating a new page
I've been trying to create a new page but in vein....

for eg...I want to add this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helwan_University

But I can't...please, just create it for me...I've the data but I can't create the page...I always get the download manager asking me if I want to download "index.php" --M.shady 16:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks A 1000000, for adding the page--M.shady 08:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

New to Wiki
I don't understand what caused your warning. Please explain.


 * Answered at your talk page. --

Please vote
Please take a look at Stub types for deletion/Log/2006/October/16. It seems that some people want to remove any reference to Palestine. --Palestine48 21:25, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure why you would say that the argument for renaming the "Palestine" stub to "Palestinian" or "Palestinian Authority" has no rationalism about it. As the vast majority of articles it organises have to do with the modern nonstate entity and not the historical region or mandate, which in any event include modern Israel, I would say that preserving the current name is politically motivated. Let me know what you think...  Tewfik Talk 05:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Tewfik! Long time no see! Hope you're doing well.


 * What i don't fathom is that everytime such an issue is being debated a huge fuss is being made out of it. Mostly, there are political arguments that are contrasted w/ reason. Let's have a look at Category:Palestine. What's in there? I am afraid that the category covers and goes beyond the Palestinian Authority. So what's the diff between the cat and its related stub? -- Szvest 09:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Fayssal, I agree that a huge fuss needn't be made, but it seems my rationale as to why differs from yours . The only parts of Category:Palestine that deal with the historical entity are parts of Category:Palestinian history (and a few articles in the mother cat which should be in the history sub like Anem). It seems that articles about culture, people, and economy all fall under the aegis of some sort of greater Palestinian Authority categorisation, or at least something that does not make use of the extremely controversial "Palestine" - which as of now implies that such a state exists. Describing what is (the Palestinian Authority) instead of what might one day be seems to me the most neutral and fair resolution to this, and I'm not sure how that can be taken to be a POV issue. If the Palestinian Authority were now an independent state, would we not include Palestinian culture, people, and economy? Cheers,  Tewfik Talk 15:39, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I see your point of course but that doesn't mean that stub biographies of non politicians Palestinian people should be included in Category:Palestinian Authority. Palestine as a state doesn't exist but Palestinians do exist and of course they are related to a land called Palestine as they don't live in Colorado or Venus! -- Szvest 16:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you
Thanks for your vote in my RfA last month. :) In a few months after I graduate I think I'll be able to come back and try again later, and hopefully win it. I'll be sure to be involved in MfD, AfD in the meantime. Perhaps I should make my responses more serious, instead of casual and conversational. Do you have any tips or suggestions for me based on what you remember? Thanks again, X [' Mac Davis '] ( SUPERDESK | Help me improve ) 06:48, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Mac. These are a few interesting tips:
 * User talk:Richardshusr/Adminship self-assessment - A self-assessment by User:Richardshusr, the user i am coaching.
 * User talk:Richardshusr/Admin coaching - A few notes from me to his account.
 * Esperanza/Programs - A place where to look for a trainee. -- Szvest 10:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I've put an extremely POV article on AFD
Policide, i.m.o. is so POV that it is beyond repair. Please come and let know your opinion! Count Iblis 12:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Voted. --

Hezbollah:Too big
Salam.

Unfortunately this article is 115kb and should be shorten. I'll make some sub-articles but I don't have enough time to shorten it.--Sa.vakilian 17:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No problem w/ that. --


 * I copy the content to these articles:


 * Hezbollah Ideology
 * Hezbollah political activities
 * Hezbollah military activities
 * Hezbollah foreign relations--Sa.vakilian 18:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Islamic architecture
Your really quick off the mark! nice one. --Mcginnly | Natter 18:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Mcginnly! I am sure it would've been you if it wasn't me! It's a wonderful article and it would be a pity to not control the sneaky vandalism. Happy editing! -- 18:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Esperanza Admin coaching - October 29
You are receiving this message because you are currently listed as a coach in the 'Active' section of the coaching box.


 * If the coaching has finished please add your trainee to the archived requests section of the archive, and remove the entry from the coaching box.
 * You can fill in information about your former students, at the main archive.
 * If the coaching is ongoing please continue :) This might serve as a useful reminder to check with your trainee if they have any new questions!
 * If you are ready to be assigned a new trainee, or have any other questions, please let me know on my talk page.

Thank you for helping with admin coaching! H ig hway Grammar Enforcer!  20:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I notice you don't have a coaching partner, would you like one, or would you prefer to continue working by yourself. Could you reply at my talk page? Cheers, H ig hway Grammar Enforcer!  21:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi HC! I am actually coaching User:Richardshusr at User talk:Richardshusr/Admin coaching.  Szvest 09:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Right, coaches are a bit thin on the ground, so are you okay without a partner? Cheers, H ig hway Grammar Enforcer!  23:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

-

Moroccan Culture
I would also like to add more info to the article, but my English wouldn't be positive. I noticed that you considered the Berbers as hosted eastern people. This is not true. The Berbers are indigenous people in Morocco. Maybe, you refer to the fact that the ancestors of the Berbers would be of eastern origin. OK; Even if this is true. That wouldn't mean that the berbers are eastern people. The capsians are in noway berbers. The Capsians can be easterns if you want, But nobody can assume that the berbers are eastern (Because the Berbers should be distinguished from the Capsians like as the Apple should be distinguished from the its tree :)). Like as we cannot consider the Germans as Africans only because the homo-sapien sapien spread from africa. As far as the Carthagians are concerned, it think it is wrong to consider the Carthagians as hosted people. Although, Carthagians shouldn't be a synoymous for Phoenicians, i think the referrence to the Phoenicians is enough.

Something others, i found this article: User:Thisisthepope/Arabic Cinema i think it is an article written on the wrong page, that page is supposed to belong to a user ans it is not an article's page. Best regards Read3r 18:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC) Yet one note [Only for personal information, not for wikipedia-editing]; I'm almost sure you found the info used in "Ethnics and languages" in the britannica. I don't really care anymore whether the moroccans are Berbers or arabs. But it is worth noticing that the britannica is not trustable like it make as believe with its percentages. A comparison with wikipedia showed that Britannica is not much better than wikipedia [and the contrary is also true, of corse]. [Sorry for my long text :D] Read3r 18:19, 30 October 2006 (UTC) Now, i just want to say that if you don't agree with me, you can revert it.Read3r 19:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Re Arabic Cinema. User:Thisisthepope left that article he had created in his namespace. The way it was written is a kind of an essay and for that reason it was deleted. Thanks for the note.


 * Back to our subject. It is widely known that the Berbers arrived to the western side of north Africa between 10,000 and 2,500 BC. The Nile connection is reiforced by the extinsive reach of the berber languages which are part of the Afro-asiatic linguistic family that includes old Egyptian. (Paula Hardy, Heidi Edsall, Mara Vorhees; Morocco - ISBN: 1740596781)


 * It should be noted that the Mechtoids, named after the type population of Mechta-Afalou, represent a grouping of distinctive Terminal Pleistocene population known from North Africa[.] They are distinguished by a suite of characteristics: gabled cranial vault, low rectangular orbits, wide inter-orbital region, massive mandibles with everted gonial angles, and considerable postcranial robusticity with marked transverse enlargement[.]


 * Mechtoids are known from the whole expanse of North Africa during the Terminal Pleistocene: from Egypt and the Sudan [Nubia] (Wadi Kubbaniya c. 20,000 BC, Jebel Sahaba 14,000-12,000 BC) (MacDonald, K C, 1998. Archaeology, Language, and the Peopling of West Africa: a consideration of the evidence, in R Blench & M Spriggs (eds), Archaeology and Language II: archaeological data and linguistic hypotheses, 45,56. London: Routledge)


 * The Mechtoid ("Mechta-Afalou") is a tall, robust modern type similar to Cro-Magnon, with a broad skull. It has been suggested that that this race contributes the depigmented element of Berbers in North Africa. They were orthognathous and also had strong zygomata and broad nasal openings (despite a jutting nose). They also had a slightly keeled skull.


 * It was the time when the contact was made between the "proto-berbers" and the mechtoides (cro-magnon) autochtone of the region. (Francisco García-Talavera C. LAS CANARIAS ORIENTALES Y VECINA COSTA AFRICANA EN EL HOLOCENO; 1997)


 * From this puzzle, most historians suggest that the Berbers came westward during the shift from the Paleo-lithic to Neo-lithic period. Ibn Khaldoun and many others argue that the Berbers came from nowadays Yemen.


 * Please let me know about your comments when possible. -- Szvest 10:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi, Fayssal. Thanks for the reply. I think it is difficult to present any opinion as a historical fact. I blieve all the opionions concerning the origin of the berbers are speculations. In fact, this would also be the case of the other people's origins. It is hard to give non-disputed data about the origin of the race. But it is useful to read the several theories: The origin of the Berbers, by G. Camps/ Translation of حمو بوشخار  +   In french
 * There are also some genetical essays, but i don't feel home with them. Every essay has its own conclusion, and i'm not able to decide which is true or not. This is an example of an essay claiming the berbers have a central saharan origin:
 * HLA genes in Arabic-speaking Moroccans: close relatedness to Berbers and Iberians. [I didn't click the link (because i've already read it). I hope it is still useable]. Best regards! Read3r 11:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Read3r. Actually my point reflects what is stated in mondeberbere.com. There were Mechtoides before the arrival of the Berbers. Consequently, my point is that it is not important if the Berbers came from east or north but that they found the mechtoides in the maghreb. -- Szvest 12:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®

RfC
Would you please comment on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Muhammad#Request_for_Comment Thanks --Aminz 10:34, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Commented. -- Wiki me up ®

Thanks Fayssal --Aminz 22:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

pleased allow new version
Wessam Reda 20:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Salam Fayssal,

I didn't know how to create a sandbox. So here is a totally new version of my article. Please allow it in the "Islam" discussion page.

Responding to the criticism against Prophet Muhammad (PBOH) from the Vatican Pope and earlier the Danish cartoons and recently the French professor Robert Rebeker, I would like to add a few points.

Islam really used swords to put away governments that did not accept their people to declare their Islam. Prophet Muhammad faught only kings, armies and governments like the one that tortured Jesus (PBOH) for his Christianity, as seen in "The Passion of the Christ". (Al Tawba 12) فَقَاتِلُواْ أَئِمَّةَ الْكُفْرِ إِنَّهُمْ لاَ أَيْمَانَ لَهُمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَنتَهُونَ shows clearly those concepts. Prophet Muhammad didn’t fight the people, instead he spread a peaceful Islamic environment that made it safe for everybody to worship whomever they wished as in (Al Tawba 6) وَإِنْ أَحَدٌ مِّنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ اسْتَجَارَكَ فَأَجِرْهُ حَتَّى يَسْمَعَ كَلاَمَ اللّهِ ثُمَّ أَبْلِغْهُ مَأْمَنَهُ. Non Muslims were only requested to pay taxes. Yet, in our region presently, we grow up in a violent environment where we beat our children to make them agree or obey. Prisons and police stations use violence sometimes, and people use violence to take a stand in most contentions. We grow up thinking that violence is a sort of negotiation. Islam tells us to negotiate in wise and good terms as in (Al Nahl 125) ادْعُ إِلَى سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ وَجَادِلْهُم بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ.

The present look for Islam is tanned with some extremism. Some Muslims, who experience certain traumatic events or feelings of guilt, suffer great pains at a certain time which they don’t perceive as a sort of test for their Faith, they perceive it a punishment from God for their being away from his path, so they think. They declare themselves clergymen and nuns and start to wear a veil or grow a dense beard as a sort of salvation and to refresh their Faith through sacrifice, some of them even sacrifice their faces and hide them. The sad thing is that when those people heal and wish to reform, they get rejected from the society that calls their hair and face sacrifices a final destination without a return back. Hair sacrifice is really a big thing to do that's why we do it during Haj, with a permission to substitute it with another tradition of choice (Al Baqara 196) وَلاَ تَحْلِقُواْ رُؤُوسَكُمْ حَتَّى يَبْلُغَ الْهَدْيُ مَحِلَّهُ فَمَن كَانَ مِنكُم مَّرِيضاً أَوْ بِهِ أَذًى مِّن رَّأْسِهِ فَفِدْيَةٌ مِّن صِيَامٍ أَوْ صَدَقَةٍ أَوْ نُسُكٍ, which shows it is not a sacrifice to do everyday. Islam does not approve monk-ship as a style of living (Al Hadeed 27) وَرَهْبَانِيَّةً ابْتَدَعُوهَا مَا كَتَبْنَاهَا عَلَيْهِمْ إِلَّا ابْتِغَاء رِضْوَانِ اللَّهِ فَمَا رَعَوْهَا حَقَّ رِعَايَتِهَا. God didn't create men to be exactly like one person in resemblance and appearance and taste for life, only in worshipping. Islam accepts everyone's outfit and we don't have a uniform to wear. The Indian Sari for example is accepted by Islam and a woman is requested to wear a veil only during prayers and Haj because you need it to add some holiness to the self during the occasion. Consider it a worshiping tradition but not a woman's regular outfit. Al Noor 31 is speaking about women's breastfeeding habits not their hair. The part وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَى جُيُوبِهِنَّ instructs women to cover their chest area completely and never show it while breast feeding excluding certain people وَلَا يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ. Al Ahzab 59 يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَابِيبِهِنَّ ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَن يُعْرَفْنَ shows that women wore dresses down till the knee. Cosmetics were allowed for all girls and women until they grow too old for it, as in Al Noor 60 فَلَيْسَ عَلَيْهِنَّ جُنَاحٌ أَن يَضَعْنَ ثِيَابَهُنَّ غَيْرَ مُتَبَرِّجَاتٍ بِزِينَةٍ. Islam was targeting a conservative civilized modern society with elegant men and appealing women. Some people say it's in the Quran. Well, the Hijab in Quran states that Prophet Muhammad's wives should not expose themselves to people while they are at home. Just imagine the daily crowd in front of a Prophet's door, so the Quran tells them it is OK and not offensive if you talk to people from behind doors if you're not ready to meet them and never feel guilty about it. Over ages, some Religion men used Hijab among other legends like female circumcision to inhibit adultery in the community, but that has nothing to do with Allah's religion.

Let's also have a closer look to multi-wives marriages (marrying up to 4 wives). Islam came in a time where people had several wives at the same time. It was hard to let a person declare his Islam and desert his many wives and keep "just" one وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تُقْسِطُواْ فِي الْيَتَامَى. It was easier to go through a transition from 10 or 8 to 4 and then to one only. Al-Nissaa 3فَانكِحُواْ مَا طَابَ لَكُم مِّنَ النِّسَاء مَثْنَى وَثُلاَثَ وَرُبَاع states you can keep any two, three or four out of those you liked from your existing women and if you fail to be fair to them 4, then you are allowed to keep only one فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ فَوَاحِدَةً. Later, Allah mentions that you will never be fair with women (Al Nissaa 129)وَلَن تَسْتَطِيعُواْ أَن تَعْدِلُواْ بَيْنَ النِّسَاء وَلَوْ حَرَصْتُمْ Islam here brings dignity to the woman and lets her be the one and only for her husband instead of sharing him with 9 others. I don't mean people who have second wives should divorce them for we can then fall into a social crisis. Islam should start to build itself again over the existing situation as it did before during our Prophet's time. Everybody would keep his wives, but we have to take a new Islamic approach that states clearly no more multiwives marriages among the new generations unless with an Islamic decree (Fatwa) for each case. Islam encouraged and accepted everybody to approach God as they were and then applied the rules gradually. Islam also used the multi-wives ancient community during the Prophet’s time to free women from slavery. So in Al Nissaa 3 فَوَاحِدَةً أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَعُولُواْ, God mentions that you can keep one wife or the women slaves. People of that era who married their slaves gave them liberty by tradition. Islam came to offer the woman monogamy, freedom and dignity; that's why marrying more than one wife is not a Sunna. Al Ahzab 50 قَدْ عَلِمْنَا مَا فَرَضْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ فِي أَزْوَاجِهِمْ وَمَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ لِكَيْلا يَكُونَ عَلَيْكَ حَرَجٌ shows that Prophet Muhammad was ordered to marry in a different way than anybody and then in 52 لا يَحِلُّ لَكَ النِّسَاء مِن بَعْدُ وَلا أَن تَبَدَّلَ بِهِنَّ مِنْ أَزْوَاجٍ وَلَوْ أَعْجَبَكَ حُسْنُهُنَّ proves he did not make marriage decisions freely as everybody else. His wives served as trustable narrators for a specific era like the Apostles of Christ; that's why he was not allowed to replace any of them as of a specific time. Some of the people who still fight against monogamy say that man was not created monogamous, yet they know that Adam (PBOH) had only one wife when he needed four wives most to build the world, and Noah as well.

A question remains, did God bestow a gift on Muslims to marry four wives and left the rest of humanity without such social privilege? If it was so, every man would have used that prevelige. Did God order only Muslims to cover their hair and left the rest of humanity enjoying the hair gift? Islam has a place for everybody with or without beards and veils. At this era, Islam needs people who can do more than just worshipping. We lack brilliant communicators, negotiators and drivers of civilization. We can at least attract them.

Still addressing our critics, Islam says let's all sit together and pray that whoever says something wrong about God be doomed as in (Aal Imran 61) فَمَنْ حَآجَّكَ فِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْاْ نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءنَا وَأَبْنَاءكُمْ وَنِسَاءنَا وَنِسَاءكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وأَنفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَل لَّعْنَةُ اللّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ. And still addressing our community, we have to revise the English version of the Quran, and try to find for ourselves what was misinterpreted over the last 1500 years that might have brought us down to mockery and criticism. We have a golden opportunity to add up 1 billion new Muslims, just if we know that none of them wants to be a clergyman or share her husband with another.

Finally,(Al Baqara 136) قُولُواْ آمَنَّا بِاللّهِ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَمَا أُوتِيَ النَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ that states we all worship one God, The One And Only.

Latest change at Sufism
Do you know whether or not this change is correct? Tom e rtalk 00:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Tomer. I believe it is correct.
 * According to naqshbandi.net, the Naqshbandi Sufi way can be traced back to Abu Bakr.
 * According to naqshbandi.org, Salman al-Farisi passed his Secret on to Abu Bakr's grandson Imam Abu `Abdur Rahman Qassim ibn Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr as-Siddiq.
 * Also have a look at Naqshbandi article. Cheers -- Szvest 10:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®

What's your idea
Salam. I upload and put it in Shi'a Islam article. I think it help to prevent editorial war in Demographics. What's your idea about it? --Sa.vakilian 03:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Sa.vakilian. I like the Image:Shiite-1.jpg map but it's a pity as i see that it was removed by a bot because it disputed status of fair use images. I believe it is more accurate than Image:Muslim distribution.jpg. I don't have Photoshop or an image software but if you have you can recreate it yourself. -- Szvest 10:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)  Wiki me up ®
 * I can't do too. Is there any justification to save it.--Sa.vakilian 10:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * You can contact the source of the map (from where you had downloaded it) and ask for a permission. You can have a look Example requests for permission and Successful requests for permission for more help. -- Szvest 10:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Shlonak Faysal
Hi Faysal, it's Sargonious. Dab is unilaterraly making changes to the Assyrian people article and making controversial remarks. As you've witnessed yourself it took us a while to come up with a comprimise between myself, Chaldean, Gareth Hughes, Khoi Khoi, and Benne. He is removing huge chunks of information and making outrageous claims. It is verging on vandalism. I would really appreciate your help.סרגון יוחנא
 * Hi Sargonious. It's a pity to have the page locked again. At least, i hope that it would serve to build a concensus between yourselves for once. Please be positive. Szvest 13:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®

Fayssal, please lock this page. See it's history for the reason why. Also, I kindly ask that you remove the nude pictures from your userpage. It deters many people, including myself, from contacting you. BhaiSaab talk 18:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Protected. Re images on my userpage. I change pics regularely and soon i'll be changing them soon if it bothers some people. -- Szvest 13:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®

The christianity and the Berbers
Hi, Faysal i was using google to find something about the berbers and i found this E-book of Daniel Robin: This Holly Seed I thought it would be helpful to know more about the north african christianity [as history]. I've already read another book [I think it is a part of a book], it is written by the same autor "Robin Daniel": The origin of the christian inheritance in North Africa. The first e-book is long, but i will try to read it. Best regards Read3r 19:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC) I noticed that the second content of the second link is a part of the first e-book. Read3r 20:02, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

The Caliph's House
Si, me pareció buenísimo. Se lo he prestado a un amigo para que lo disfrute también. Me harté de reir con algunos pasajes y no pude sino evitar fijarme en cuan similares somos los andaluces. Me encantó. Estoy deseando leer algo más de Tahir Shah. A ver si encuentro un artículo en el New Statesman que leí hace poco, con una pequeña continuación de la historia, y te mando un link. Saludos, Asterion talk 14:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Gracias. Heehehehe. Lo que me ha encantado mucho fueron los detalles y la psycologia de cada personaje que fue differente de los demas! Pienso en contactar a Shah y visitar Dar El Khlifa. Que tal fueron las vacaciones? -- Szvest 14:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Bien, gracias. Estuve una semana en Sevilla para la boda de mi hermano. Salió bastante bien pero no tuve mucho tiempo de hacer lo que se dice mucho más. Luego hace unos días estuve en Madrid, pues se casaba un amigo mío. Espero que no se case nadie más pronto porque estoy arruinado ;-) Bueno, ya me dirás como te fue, si al final visitas a Tahir Shah. La verdad es que a mí también me encantaría. Asterion talk 15:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Lo encontré: . Asterion talk 15:05, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Estoy tomando un café noir ahora mismo leendo el articulo del New Statesman! lool! El caballo arabe es una demas! Estoy seguro de que Shah tendria mas de 10 historias cada dia para contar!
 * Fue la temporada de bodas para ti, hehehe! Aunque no creo ni descreo en los jinns puedo dicir que es un buen señal/signo lo de las bodas, creo yo! lol! -- Szvest 15:18, 5 November 2006 (UTC)  Wiki me up ®


 * Hola Fayssal, hoy me ha llegado por correo la copia que encargué de otro libro de Tahir Shah titulado House of the Tiger King: The Quest for a Lost City. Todavía no lo he abierto siquiera pero tiene buena pinta. Voy a estar fuera este fin de semana pero ya te contaré si me da tiempo de leermelo para el lunes :o) Asterion talk 22:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

POV pushing
Salam akaykum

What should we do with User:Patchouli. Please look at his contribution and also look at Talk:Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists and User talk:LittleDan. I don't hane any editorial war with him but I think he should change his behavior. Apparantly he has some problems with Islamic Republic of Iran like many others, but he doesn't obey wikipedia regulations. He forces his idea in articles whithout building consensus and even without any discussion.--Sa.vakilian 15:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * If the behaviour of the user is tendious than i suggest that the best place to look at the matter would be Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. We have a similar case somehow here. You may have to present facts which signals tendious editing or non-respect of wikipedia rules and see what other admins would advice. -- Szvest 15:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®

Criticism of the Qur'an
Please look at this part in the article and talk page. I find it too weak.--Sa.vakilian 16:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Userpage category
Could you change Category:AWWDMBJAWGCAWAIFDSPBATDMTD to Category:Wikipedians in the AWWDMBJAWGCAWAIFDSPBATDMTD? TimBentley (talk) 20:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks for the note. -- Szvest 13:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®

African military history
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/African military history task force needs some attention. Thanks Wandalstouring 21:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Commented there. -- Szvest 13:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)  Wiki me up ®

Please help stop this vandalism
Salam Brother Fayssal. Please see this example. The guy ran out of reverts so he ask his friends to revert for him. That happend couple of times already (see their talk pages). --Islamic 05:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Answered at the article talk page Szvest 13:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®

Protection of Palestinian refugee
Hi... I note that the version of Palestinian refugee you protected includes the long block quote which is the subject of the edit war. Might it have been better to effect this pause at a point when this disputed addition was not included, pending a consensus on whether it merits inclusion? --Rrburke 12:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That's true but protection is not an endorsement of the current page version. Concensus would solve the issue through discussion at the talk page. If there would be no discussion w/in 48 hours i'll unprotect it. -- Szvest 15:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)  Wiki me up ®
 * FayssalF wrote "Consensus would solve the issue through discussion at the talk page." I'm trying to see if any basis for consensus exists, but it will take longer than 48 hrs :) .  Right now that commodity is in short supply.  --Rrburke 02:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You may want to put United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East and Palestinian exodus on your watchlist -- for much the same reason. Users are flirting with 3rr --Rrburke 21:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you!
...for semiprotecting Donald Rumsfeld. I was trying to figure out how to request a quick semiprotect on the article. -- Jim Douglas (talk) (contribs)  18:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem Jim. If it wasn't because of his resignation i'd have not semi-protected it. I hope that would help. -- Szvest 18:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®


 * User:Patstuart and others were going insane trying to keep up with the nonsense in that article; it definitely needs to be protected, at least for the next several hours. Thanks again! -- Jim Douglas (talk) (contribs)  18:59, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, as i read your message to Clown. Always refer to Requests for page protection as it is the easiest way for any protection request. -- Szvest 18:59, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup, see my followup there. I've used WP:RFPP, but I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that I would not get an immediate response there. -- Jim Douglas (talk)  (contribs)  19:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Will you help me be a good one?
Assalam-o-Alikum ((Peace Be Upon You)

First of fall, accept my thanks for inviting me to a lounge for delecious Coffee. Now, let me mention the reason that brought me here (on your stunning-designed Talk Page). Recently, I posted a request for full protection at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Current_requests_for_protection for article {{marwat]].

I don't want to go into history of that long edit war, that is based upon personalism by my opponent for whom I having sympathy and commiseration at once.

I have been under an attack by the above mentioned wiki-mate User:Marwatt. There is too much to say and too much to talk and too many blames.

Inshort, I have committed many many mistakes in past on wikipedia, but not a major mistake is committed so far. But I assure you that those mistakes weren't made deliberately but were really made by unintentionally. I am heartly, deeply sorry for myself.

Now, I would like to be good, infact excellent, someone who be known as vey brilliant for his contribution to Wikipedia, as I think I can help wikipedia by extreme of my knowledge and literacy. In this regard, I would like someone to guide me and be my guiide on wikipedia. As you seems too much kind and compensionate one, I would like to request you to teach me and give me tasks with procedure so I start working upon my aim, instead of going for edit wars for long long and waste my own time with reputation of Wikipedia.

Ana uhib anta kama anta mislu muallim o aalim kabeer fi wikipedia.

Regards, Your brother in Islam,

Begger of mercy and justice,

A M. Khan 19:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for approaching me asking for guidence. First of all, i am serious about the coffee. Whenever you feel stressed editing just have a breack and drop by the Esperanza/Coffee lounge. You may have to register yourselves at Esperanza/Members and enjoy.


 * Now, i'll have a look at Adopt-a-User program and contact you soon. -- Szvest 19:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC) {{sup|Wiki me up ®}}


 * Thankyou so much for your sincere offer. Your kind offer means alot for me, even.

Once again, I tell you, before adopting me youmust know that I made many mistakes earlier, as isaid eralier. But I promise, from onwards you can check, I won't go against WP policy. May mercy be upon you. Waiting to have your asnwer for adopttaion.

Regards, A M. Khan 19:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter if you had made mistakes in the past. The important thing is that you are willing to contribute to Wikipedia while abiding by Wikipedia policies and guidelines. -- Szvest 19:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Kindly help me, as I am not able to mek my page as said i.e. "User:[Your username here]/Esperanza", nor I am able to perform the following command "In the nickname box, replace one of the "e"s with

e ." as am unable to find Nickname Box. Sorry for bothering you, but you are the only one who helps too quick.

Your Blocking of Page Marwat
Assalamolekum,

I am not going to question your act of blocking the above page but before I go into any subsidiary details I wish you had seen the matter in its entirety. I will just make a few links over here so as to open your eyes about the above name user User:A M. Khan.

Firstly, of all I have already filed a case against him at WP:CFRU for his sock pupating. I would suggest that you look at my case that I have made against him.

Secondly, the whole edit war (so much to say) revolves around his POV entry of a petty Government Servant known as Akhtar Munir Marwat. He tried to create a separate page for this gentleman but the same was nominated for AFD and was eventually deleted with consensus. He tried to recreate the same page but the same was speedy deleted. (Check the deletion log over here ). Since this POV entry does not fulfill the criteria of WP:BIO therefore, I repeatedly requested the above user on the discussion page of Marwat to stop pushing this entry. But he was persistently bent upon on vandalizing the above page.

Thirdly, as far as the civility of the above user is concerned, you could see it for yourself on the discussion page of Marwat. And I quote "so I would like to see, that how you can make NAB nabbing Akhtar Munir of whom ""stick"" can hardly be held in your hands". I am sure that you do understand what is the meaning of holding a stick.

I can go on and on but what makes me particularly disappointed is that before you could lock the above page, he still managed to enter his POV entry and in the end Wikipedia lost. I would only request you to go through the whole string of his contributions and the other sock puppets that he has created and then decide for yourself. --Marwatt 20:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Marwatt. Thanks for the message. I am a bit aware of the edit conflict between you and A M. Khan. I know that his behaviour was questionable as per his confessions. Let's find out and look for solutions now.


 * I read at the article talk page a comment made by Addhoc here. I find it very reasonable. List your concerns about the article content first and then try to sort them out one by one. That would take some time, i know, but that's simpliest procedure to deal w/ edit warring. I'll be watching the discussion and would intervene when needed. -- Szvest 20:37, 8 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®


 * Thanks for the quick response and I don’t mind discussing the edits by User:A M. Khan, but he would always do an edit first and then discuss its inclusion in the article. And you know what he eventually succeeded in getting what he wanted, as he managed to enter his POV entry and then asked for Protecting this article. And furthermore, I just found out that he can not even become a member of Esperanza because he was not civil (used abusive language many times), consistently vandalized, and has multiple sock puppets. I hope you keep an eye on this as well. --Marwatt 20:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * First of all, my brother User:Marwatt, let me ensure you that I am not succeeded in anything. It is my faith "Emaan" that truth succeeds. I always has invited you for a discussion, debate and negotitations, evidence for this is talk page. Here, I also won't criticise you for calling an Additional Secretary a petty. About Stick issue,I have already replied you, by claering your misconception, at User:Addhoc's Talk Page. As far as becoming member of Esperanza" is concerned, I think if I am uneligble for it, I will surely be deleted by Adminitsration specially by User: FayssalF. But you must do me a favour by applogizing me for whatever I did wrong in the past, it is my kind request to you. I assure, Insha Allah, from onwards you won't find anything wrong in me. At the end, I warmly welcome User: FayssalF for becoming a third-party by watching, noticing and observing. This will surely maintain the artilce Marwat a credible one.

Regards, A M. Khan 21:13, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Stop This Drama

Please stop this Drama.

Unfortunately, you might have taken an undue advantage of a small loophole in the Wikipedia System for now but I am watching you and your sock puppets. I will keep track of your vandalization, rest assure, if no one else does.

And by the way, I accept your apology but that's not going to make me change my mind as far as the entry of Akhtar Munir Marwat is concerned. He simply does not fulfill the criteria of WP:BIO. --Marwatt 21:48, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * 'Please, stop it here'

This is the page of another User, we have nothing to do here. Anhow, I have replied you on your talk page as well as on my page, for your topic Stop this Drana.. You can go and check at both the places, to view your reply. Once again, kindly no more personalism on Wikipedia, specially on article's and on Talk Pages of other users. Regards, A M. Khan 22:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Mediation
This message is both for you Marwatt and A M. Khan...

Let's go step by step:
 * I'll read the article and leave notes on its talk page. I'll look for POV's and unsourced material and give you my judgement.
 * A M. Khan, if you have been using sockpuppets declare it, renounce it, delete them, apologize and promise it will never happen again.
 * I'll be blocking anyone who does not abide by WP:CIVIL.

I hope this will ease tensions and sort out other potential problems in the future. -- Szvest 08:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®


 * I totally agree with you, I will surely not be using any of the Sockpuppet, onwards. I already start logging form a different ID, since I knew it is against the policy of Wikipedia.

Anyhow, I wish if you could first discuss it on discussion page, before making any edition. You must block any one who dosen't abide by the rules. There should be nuterality, even if you ( an Administrator) dosen't obey he / she must be blocked too.

Anyhow, I warmly welcome your intrest in article Marwat. This will now make peace and allow us to enter and dlete the rights and wrongs.

Regards

A M. Khan 09:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * THEN HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN YOUR FOLLOWING SOCK PUPPETRY AT 

"Let me have the honour to interfare among you, addressing specially to User:HereToHelp. Please re-search with Akhtar Munir Marwat or replace Akhter with Akhtar. I gurantee you will find many of matches. I am politically an ally to User:Marwat but will support User:A M. Khan on the cause of Notable Marwats. Please re google and then reply. Ali Begu Khel"

Its just one of your glaring examples of sock puppetry which you just did after writing your above comment. --Marwatt 00:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I wish if you could be successful in ending personalism.
Yes, you are absolutely right, all the links (you posted on Marwat's Talk-Page) are of the same Akhtar Munir Marwat, whom I am editing. He is the Honourary Secretary of Peshawar Flying club, he is also the younger son of Khan Habibullah Khan. Not only these he held various other high important designations of Bureaucracy of Pakistan, such as Secretary Social Welfare, Balochistan, Commissioner of Malakand, Commissioner Quetta, Deputy Commissioner of various places and even Political Agent who is directly under President and Governor only and have many Law enforcement powers that can be challenged by President of Pakistan and few by Governor of the relevant Agency.

Additional Secretary is the 2nd highest rank in the bureaucracy of Pakistan. Also be aware that Federal Additional Secretary is the same rank as of any of the Chief Secretaries in Pakistan. Additional secretary is in the same grade (21), as any of the 6 Chief Secretaries those are working in Pakistan. Let me add very important and elevated valuable thing here that currently Akhtar Munir Marwat, is working as Additional Secretary for Ministry of Kashmir Affairs and Northern Areas. Kashmir and Northern Areas, both of the regions are represented by 2 different Chief Secretaries, those two are having more power than any other 4 Chief Secretaries of NWFP, Punjab, Balochistan and Sindh). These later mentioned Chief Secretaries are most power after the Governors of their provinces. As you must know Pakistan was a colonial state of British, so still the same system is running in Pakistan and India. But in Kashmir and Northern Areas, Chief Secretaries are directly powerful, as they are the major representatives of Federation of Pakistan (Federal), as in both areas there is no Governor nor any higher representative of Federation except these two CS. ‘’’Now come to the main point, that Akhtar Munir Khan Marwat is superior to both of the Chief Secretaries of Kashmir and to Northern Areas of Pakistan a.k.a. FANA (Federally Administrative Northern Areas). Both of the Chief Secretaries are under to him’’’. You can also send an e-mail to the mentioned Ministry and they will reply you with the answer that will support my above mentioned claim.

Now, as you can make an easy Justice yourself, just give me a reason that how come Akhtar Munir Marwat is not a distinguished personality? I don’t want to lengthy this topic by clearing you that User:Marwatt is political opponent to Akhtar Munir Khan Marwat, his brother Anwar Kamal Khan Marwat and all others relevant to this notable and famous personality of Marwat. For god sake, ask him not to bring personalism here.

It is my mistake that a separate page (Article) for Akhtar Munir Khan Marwat was deleted due to my absence and not filling the requirement. User:FayssalF, don’t you think that there should be a separate article for this person? Yes, there should be. User:Marwatt even tried to delete the article of Khan Habibullah Khan and Anwar Kamal Khan claiming that they don’t meet the Wiki criteria, infact he thought that I won’t be able to defend them so they will be deleted otherwise he know well that Khan Habibullah Khan was most high profiled Marwat in government ever. This clearly proves that he is against this outstanding and prominent family on personal basis.

Thanking you in anticipation,

Regards,

A M. Khan 13:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

My Counter Argument to the above Comments of User:A M. Khan
Well every one, I can only say that I am myself a Grade 20 Officer in the Federal Civil Bureaucracy of Pakistan and I believe I can provide certain facts and figures for removing this mystical aura of being a so-called “Additional Secretary” in the Federal Bureaucracy of Pakistan.

Unfortunately, we Pakistanis were a colony of Great Britain and they left us with this rotten structure of Bureaucracy that has crumbled in many developing countries under its own dead weight. Currently we are also in the process of restructuring and reforming our Civil Services under a joint pressure from World Bank and IMF, who have provided generous funds for accomplishing this Herculean task. In the process though much of the old system has been discarded in which a bureaucrat was considered as a demigod and earthen lord of the poor people of Pakistan.

As a matter of fact we still have a huge federal and provincial bureaucracy and for the records there are 45 Divisions at the Federal Secretariat level of Pakistan and each one of them is headed by a Federal Secretary of Basic Pay Scale or BPS 22 (though a few of them get promoted to BPS 23 as well and are called as Secretary Generals). Furthermore, every Division in the Federal Secretariat has on the average 2 Additional Secretaries of BPS 21 and which makes their number roughly at 90 (once again this number is just and I repeat just for the Federal Secretariat of Pakistan). Having said that, I should also point out that there are 4 Provinces, ICT (Islamabad Capital Territory), Azad Jammu and Kashmir, and countless other Federal and Provincial Autonomous and Semi-Autonomous Bodies and Organizations which have both BPS Officers of 22 and 21. As a rough estimate Total Federal Employees in BPS 19-22 are about 3200. Now that’s just the civil side of our enormous bureaucracy. What about Officers of Armed Forces of Pakistan in BPS 22 and 21? Since this information is classified but I can give a rough estimate from this report that there are more than 50 Officers in total (Army, Air Force, and Navy) who are at the level of Lieutenant General or BPS 22 and one can thus make their own fair assessment of Officers of Armed Forces in Basic Pay Scale 21.

The point that I want to make is that if we start to make separate pages for each of these bureaucrats who have done nothing else but to earn a monthly salary and go home and none of their actions conform with the policies of WP:BIO then Wikipedia will just have to make a thousand pages for Pakistani Bureaucrats alone. The point is that if you are a poor artist with no money in your pocket but have created a master piece which attracts national or international recognition then that is what we call fame. Being a “private pilot” is not at all a criterion for inclusion in Wikipedia. As a matter of fact there are a total of 244,000 Private Pilots in USA alone and alternatively you can estimate the number of private pilots in Pakistan.

Therefore, Akhtar Munir Marwat is just another middle level Bureaucrat who has done nothing of national or international fame and thus does not qualify to be included in this article. --Marwatt 00:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Attention: User:FayssalF, now you can decide yourself
(NOTE = I HAVE PROVIDED MY REPLY TO EVERY PARAGRAPH IN ITALICS. --Marwatt 15:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)) First of all, I would like you to pay attention on the followings:

If User:Marwatt starts hard-working on other issues like this minor issue, he might help Wikipedia. But once again, you can notice yourself that he is victim of personalism. Why he cannot find a link for Khan Habibullah Khan's article? As a Wikipedian it is his duty to find links for the articles and to expand him. He starts deleting the articles of Khan Habibullah Khan and Anwar Kamal Khan because of having personal enmity with this family, it is clear now.


 * I offered my genuine help very early on but you were bent upon to include POV entries and which are distorting the facts. For example there is no valid, concrete, and credible proof (though I know that he never assumed those responsibilities) that Khan Habibullah Khan remained an Acting President.

Now let me tell you, I agree that there are large number of BPS 21 and BPS 22 officers in Pakistan. But here let me add very very informatics thing for you that Ministries Section Officers (who basically are in grade 17 & 18) are even having a separate Section to take control of any organization of his relevant Ministry.


 * There are more than a thousend Section Officers in the Federal Secretariat alone. A section Officer is just like a dignified Clerk and nothing else. You are talking as if a section officer, (God Forbid) owns a Government Organization.

Suppose an I.G Inspector General who in Pakistan is basically in Grade-21 or Grade-22 is under the Joint Secretary of that Ministry even. A Joint Secretary is having 2-4 Deputy Secretaries under him/her. Same like each deputy secretary is having 3-6 Section Officers under him. One of the S.O would be responsible for Police Section, one for Passport Section, one for Immigration, One for Arms and so on. Now you can yourself guess the powers of Bureaucracy in Pakistan.


 * Please don't project a negetive image of Pakistani Bureaucracy. What powers are you talking about. I have been working for the last 20 years as a DMG officer and I never saw any powers. The actual power lies with the Pakistani population. A Bureaucrat is a Public Servant and is specifically recruited for serving people and not to boss them around which incidently happened in less educated areas of Pakistan in the past.

There is too much to say on this article, too much. But it will spoil and damage the "soul" of the actual point of debate we are discussing here.


 * I totally agree. Don't beat around the bush, come to the issue at the center.

My fellow User:Marwatt himself curses Bureaucracy that is a British System. This shows that a Bureaucracy is the actual power in Pakistan. Bureaucrats are official policy makes in the relevant Ministries under the constitution of Pakistan and ESTACOD a.k.a Establishment Codes. The Ministries Officers are not under the staffs that are deployed on field. Like Ministry of Defence is having Army, Navy, PIA, Air Force, Aviation Authority, Civil Aviation Authority, SCO, and many many more divisions. A Grade 22 Officer represents all of these divisions, but they are different parts of the ministries. So there are for sure under a Joint Secretary of Ministry.


 * What the heck are trying to say over here????

Now let me clear by one of your own link. hat is about Zardari's (Husband of Ex-Prime Minister of Pakistan Benazir Bhutto to Akhtar Munir Marwat. This clearly shows the power of a bureaucrat, that how much power he/she is having to interfere in Governmental Politics.


 * I would once agian say that what the hell are trying to prove - Looks like a completely irrelevant thing???

There are nearly 100 Secretaries and Additional Secretaries in Pakistan and 6 Chief Secretaries. Having pages for secretaries and Additional secretaries is worth for Wikipedia. In Pakistan there are more then 2000 Assembly Members now, Including Assemblies of Punjab Balochistan Sindh, NWFP Northern Areas Kashmir. So when we are having the pages for those who even are illiterate mostly, they why can't we have for an Additional Secretary who is having Pakistan's first Private Pilot Licence #001. You can check it by e-mailing it to Civil Aviation Authority of Pakistan. And here also let me inform you that very few of Bureaucrats become Commissioners Deputy CommissionersPolitical Agents, Director Generals, Managing Directors and some other high profile posts.


 * Don't redicule the elected public officials. Pakistan is after all a Democracy and any elected Member of Parliament qualifies the Wikipedia's policy on WP:BIO.

Now also let me rewrite that Akhtar Munir currently heading two Chief Secretaries out of 6 from Pakistan. And you must know the powers of Chief Secretaries yourself and then decide.


 * How on earth did you assume this rediculous claim. A Chief Secreatry is never even responsible to a Federal Secretary let alone a junior officer like Additional Secreatry.

I don't know why USer:Marwatt is cursing the British Bureaucracy System, being himself a Bureaucrat, as he claims. There are no reforms at the moment when there will be, surely we will follow those but won't talk against it as he is doing.


 * Well, there are massive reforms going on and as a first step a few years back the erstwhile notorious “Commissioner System” was discarded and which gave way to a new system of Local Government. You can check all such measures at the web site of National Reconstruction Bureau . Moreover, recently National Commission for Government Reforms (NCGR) was established under the chairmanship of Dr. Ishrat Hussain and which also took over the activities of Civil Services Reform Unit  (CSRU) . In addition to the above, individual departments have also undertaken their restructuring and Central Board of Revenue (CBR) is one of them . In a span of two years, the bureaucrats of Pakistan will become efficient Public Servants.

On one stage he wrote that there are 3200 Officers of BPS 19, this shows that how much Additional Secretaries are controlling.


 * I quoted a source which said that there are more than 3200 officers from BPS 19 to BPS 22 in the Federal Bureaucracy of Pakistan and not only BPS 19. So don't twist the facts.

May be he is the one who goes his home with doing nothing in office. But I know many many bureaucrats who are working to make this country a grown up one.


 * I think you should desist from personal attacks. I never mentioned anyone by name. And I better warn you once again for this.

Dear FayssalF, I never wanted to make this topic lengthy, but as you know, it is extremely necessary to reply the points of USer:Marwatt, as this is the chance to clear this issue. Now when he is fail to defend his claim, he started turning the task of this discussion, by warding and facing the topic to some where else.


 * And When exactly did I do that???

At the end, if you wish, you can check the system of Bureaucracy in British, we are having same system it would be easy for you to understand. Otherwise you can visit www.csspk.com here you will find a book ESTACODE (Online Version) there you will know the powers of a bureaucrat. Even though Minister cannot issue something directly, until unless Secretary doesn’t permits it. You can check this enormous claim too.


 * Any reader of the above comment, I leave it your wild imagination whether a Minister (who is the real head of a Department) can act on his own or have to seek an approval of his subordinates for taking a public policy decision (there is a difference between consultation and seeking permission). It would be like Condoleezza Rice asking a permission from an Assistant under Secretary to take an action or not.

Regards A M. Khan 07:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC) )


 * Can someone help me out here. What the heck is he saying. Man he sure is obsessed with this guy (Akhtar Munir Marwat). I don't know how to bridge the "perception gap" that exists between his thinking and the reality. Can someone please help me out over here.--Marwatt 14:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Marwatt. I am sorry that you feel unhappy w/ Khan's comments but i hope you take it easy because it is all around the edit conflict in the article. I just don't give attention to what one says or thinks about the other.
 * Now, as i get to know that Akhtar Munir Marwat handles many positions, i'd consider him worthy for inclusion in the article. However, i'd not support a creation of an article about him. He is then notable among Marwats but not notable for inclusion in wikipedia as per WP:Notability.
 * What i'd ask from you now is to accept this middle ground to sort this issue out for once. If you are not feeling satisfied w/ my opinion than i'd like to see another opinion of another admin. Is that okay w/ you? -- Szvest 14:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®


 * I don’t want to seek an opinion from any one else as I think you are a pretty balanced person, so I am fine with your mediation. Though it’s all about principles. If we let him have his way now then what good it is for me to guard [Wikipedia]. And I know that you are not an expert of the contents of the subject matter but I am. I am myself an officer with 20 years of work experience in the civil bureaucracy of Pakistan. If Akhtar Munir Marwat is in BPS 21 then I am in BPS 20. If he is going to retire in 2008 then I am going to retire in 2025. The problem is that being a bureaucrat of that caliber, I don’t see any merits of including my name or someone else's name until I have done something extra ordinary. Honestly there are a lot of Marwat Civil Servants (currently working in Federal and Provincial Bureaucracies) and if we let Akhtar Munir's name to be added to this list then it’s going to open a flood gate of other people whom I have so far successful warded. Please look at the consequences of such act. And I am not going into the details of his sock puppetry, uncivil language, and invitations to personally chat with him on “batagram786@ hotmail.com”. Even in his recent comment he attacked me personally. --Marwatt 15:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the prompt reply and your confidence. I appreciate that. True that i am not an expert on the issue on hand but after finding out that Akhtar Munir Khan has been/was handling several functions (i.e. Member of the Board of Governors of Overseas Pakistanis Foundation, MD Provincial Urban Development Board, Head of the taskforce to counter suicide bombing, etc...) i thought he is worthy to be mentioned among notable Marwats. Note that i am not even mentioning his function as secretary Additional Secretary, which for me is not notable as a function but i mention the other ones. On the other hand, having an article about him is questionable and i personally wouldn't support that as per WP:Notability.
 * Thanks again for your understanding and cooperation. I'll unprotect the article now and if there are any problems later please let me know. Feel free to contact me if you need any kind of help in the future. -- Szvest 17:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®

New article you may want to edit
Hello Szvest, I've started a new article about Saudi Arabia's first feature film: Keif al-hal?. I invite you to contribute to it if such an article might interest you. Thanks. :-) (→ Netscott ) 03:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Very nice to see you contributing to the article and making categories Szvest, thanks! (→ Netscott ) 13:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Nice to see Zora commenting after a long time of disappearence from the hot scenes (i.e. religion related articles)! Thanks Scott for the note. -- Szvest 13:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®
 * By the way, there's a lot to say about Saudi Cinema (new movies, new and young actors, banning of the theatres, etc...). I just find it weird when i see no Egyptian cinema article! -- Szvest 13:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes that is rather odd given how Egypt is essentially the home of the Middle East's Hollywood. That definitely needs work! I'm very keen to see articles about Saudi Cinema... it is a great day when this aspect of world culture (cinema) becomes better integrated into Saudi culture. (→ Netscott ) 13:26, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, definitely. I've just added this to Recent_additions. -- Szvest 14:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Szvest, I've adjusted your DYK entry by doing a copy edit and adding some details, hope you don't mind. :-) (→ Netscott ) 14:59, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It became more encyclopaedic indeed. Good edit. -- Szvest 15:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

User:FayssalF, I am guilty for past, but don't want to be sorry for tomorrow.
What should I call it, a dilemma or Catch-22 of our nation?

It is strange that User:Marwatt never wanted to discuss or talk about the relevant article(s) specifically Marwat. He always wanted to skip-off from dicsussing the disputes of the articles but he tried to impose and started trying banning, blocking, preventing the user whoever write against his macthings.

I never compromises on my conscience, that is always a supporter of truth, eventhough my mind and heart sometimes oppose and reflects basics of my coinscience but still conscience wins atlast.

I will leave the Wikipedia for whole of my life, if it satisfies my fellow User:Marwatt, so it would be easy for him to be a Dictator here as there will be no opposition left for him. But kindly don't force a lie to win.

Just make an appeal here, I will leave Wikipedia, but can't see the insult of "truth" and respect of "lies" here.

I admitt my mistakes and guilt in past, I am extremely sorry for it, kindly forgive me all.

Regards,

A M. Khan 07:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)