User talk:Felix Wan/Draft/Penkyamp

''My logic is: Guangdong-Hong Kong is a strong economic/cultural zone. It needs a strong native language of its own. Of course, well, now the Javanese use Bahasa Indonesia, the Venetians use Tuscan and the Punjabis use Urdu. But Cantonese has potentials! Don't let it become another Javanese, Veneto or Punjabi! It should become another Catalan!''


 * 1) http://iris.lib.virginia.edu/tibet/tools/tibkbd_doc.htm This page has all the ALT instructions for ALL the diacritics in Cantonese
 * 2) http://iris.lib.virginia.edu/tibet/tools/diacritic_chart.html This page has all the Unicode "Entity Names" "Decimals" "Hex" for ALL the Cantonese diacritics
 * 3) http://www.towo.net/mined/mnemodoc.html Hex and Mnemic
 * 4) http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/madore/misc/unitest/ Simple Unicode Testpage
 * 5) http://utne.nvg.org/w/diakrit.html Nynorsk page with unicode(comprehensive)
 * 6) http://escholarship.cdlib.org/unicodetest.html I believe the tildes are in "Latin Extended-A" the rest are in Latin-l supplement
 * 7) http://vlado.fmf.uni-lj.si/seminar/fonts/times.htm Again, Latin Extended  29x 36x and 786x
 * 8) http://pub.ks-and-ks.ne.jp/prog/unicode-precomposed.html They are found in "Precomposed" and "Composed" characters, guess there are two ways of writing them
 * 9) http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%C5%A9+%C4%A9+%E1%BA%BD+%C3%A0+%C3%A1+%C3%A2+%C3%A3+%C3%A4+%C3%A8+%C3%A9+%C3%AA+%C3%AB+%C3%AC+%C3%AD+%C3%AE+%C3%AF+%C3%B2+%C3%B3+%C3%B4+%C3%B5+%C3%B6+%C3%B9+%C3%BA+%C3%BB+%C3%BC+&btnG=Google+Search&meta= The Google Search for all Cantonese diacritics
 * 10) http://www.google.ca/search?q=%C4%A9++++++%C3%B5+++++++++%C5%A9&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta=  Searched the web for &#297; õ &#361;.
 * 11) http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%E1%BA%BC+++++++%C4%A8+++++++++%C5%A8&btnG=Google+Search&meta=  Searched the web for &#7868; &#296; &#360;.

---

Fonts
Cantonese Font:

http://www.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/ressources/ti/guide_test_unicode_utf8_B.html

ÀÁAÂÃÄ, ÈÉEÊ(&#7868;)Ë, ÌÍIÎ(&#296;)Ï, ÒÓOÔÕÖ, ÙÚUÛ(&#360;)Ü;

àáaâãä, èéeê(&#7869;)ë, ìíiî(&#297;)ï, òóoôõö, ùúuû(&#361;)ü;

From Common Western Font missing: E-tilde I-tilde U-tilde

http://www.xuquang.com/trungdao/unicode.htm


 * E-tilde is obtainable from Vietnamese font &#7868; &#7869;
 * I-tilde is obtainable from Vietnamese font &#296; &#297;
 * U-tilde is obtainable from Vietnamese font &#360; &#361;

&#7868; &#296; &#360; &#361; &#297; &#7869;

http://www.xuquang.com/trungdao/unicode.htm

--

It is discovered that the three tildes are contained in Lithuanian and Latvian Which is available in 2002 XP Word

http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/unicode/alphabet/balttest.htm

1. Lithuanian:

A &#260; B C &#268; D E &#280; &#278; F G H I &#302; Y J K L M N O P R S &#352; T U &#370; &#362; V Z &#381;

a &#261; b c &#269; d e &#281; &#279; f g h i &#303; y j k l m n o p r s &#353; t u &#371; &#363; v z &#382;

ã &#261;&#771; &#7869; &#279;&#771; &#281;&#771; &#297; &#303;&#771; &#7929; õ &#361; &#363;&#771; &#371;&#771; l&#771; m&#771; ñ r&#771; á &#261;&#769; é &#279;&#769; &#281;&#769; í &#303;&#769; ý ó ú &#363;&#769; &#371;&#769; à è ì ù

2. Latvian:

A &#256; B C &#268; D E &#274; F G &#290; H I &#298; J K &#310; L &#315; M N &#325; O P R &#342; S &#352; T U &#362; V Z &#381;

a &#257; b c &#269; d e &#275; f g &#291; h i &#299; j k &#311; l &#316; m n &#326; o p r &#343; s &#353; t u &#363; v z &#382;

ã &#7869; &#297; õ &#361; l&#771; m&#771; ñ r&#771; â ê î ô û à è ì ò ù

Also, Guarani employs the three tildes

http://gn.wikipedia.com/

Discovered also in the African Twi Language

http://sivanataraja.free.fr/phone/non-ie/afrique/langues.htm

Also discovered in the South American Tupi Language


 * 1) http://at.komputilo.org/dok/tup.html
 * 2) http://at.komputilo.org/dok/gn.html

Cantonese Font:

http://www.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/ressources/ti/guide_test_unicode_utf8_B.html

À Á Â Ã Ä È É Ê Ë  Ì Í Î Ï  Ò Ó Ô Õ Ö  Ù Ú Û Ü

à á â ã ä è é ê ë ì í î ï  ò ó ô õ ö  ù ú û ü

From Common Western Font need: E-tilde I-tilde  U-tilde

http://www.xuquang.com/trungdao/unicode.htm


 * E-tilde is obtainable from Vietnamese font &#7868; &#7869;
 * I-tilde is obtainable from Vietnamese font &#296; &#297;
 * U-tilde is obtainable from Vietnamese font &#360; &#361;

&#7868; &#296; &#360;  &#361; &#297; &#7869;

http://www.xuquang.com/trungdao/unicode.htm

But Vietnamese Font doesn't have other Cantonese diacritics


 * a á à &#7843; ã &#7841;
 * &#259; &#7855; &#7857; &#7859; &#7861; &#7863;
 * â &#7845; &#7847; &#7849; &#7851; &#7853;
 * e é è &#7867; &#7869; &#7865;
 * ê &#7871; &#7873; &#7875; &#7877; &#7879;
 * i í ì &#7881; &#297; &#7883;
 * o ó ò &#7887; õ &#7885;
 * ô &#7889; &#7891; &#7893; &#7895; &#7897;
 * &#417; &#7899; &#7901; &#7903; &#7905; &#7907;
 * u ú ù &#7911; &#361; &#7909;
 * &#432; &#7913; &#7915; &#7917; &#7919; &#7921;
 * y ý &#7923; &#7927; &#7929; &#7925;
 * &#273;

-

(Consonants aided by International Phonetic Alphabets. In order to see proper display of IPA, you need to download Unicode font)

Special Attention


 * C is [ts'] as "tz" in Politzer.
 * Z [tz] is the unaspirated form of C.
 * q is a glottal stop, Arabic "hamsa", as it appears in Cantonese interjection lâq which is interchangeable with lâg.

Vowels:

* long: A E I O U Eo Eu   * short: Ah Eh Oh    * diphthongs1: Ai Oi Ui Au Iu Ay Ey Oy Aw Ow
 * diphthongs2: single vowels and diphthongs1 preceded by semi-vowel u, such as uay as in guây (expensive)

Yunmus aided by International Phonetic Symbols

long

* A [a] ("a" alone or followed by "g", "b", "d", "ng", "m", "n", "i", "u") * E [&#603;] open-mid front unrounded * I [i] * O [&#596;]open-mid back rounded * U [u] * Eo [&#630;] open-mid front rounded
 * Eu [y]

short

* Ah [&#608;]open-mid back unrounded ("a" followed by "h", "k", "p", "t", "nk", "mp", "nt", "y", "w") * Eh [e] close-mid front unrounded ("e" followed by above)
 * Oh [o] close-mid back rounded ("o" followed by above)

diphthongs

* Ai [ai] * Oi [&#596;y] * Ui [uy] * Au [au] * Iu [iw] * Ay [&#608;j] * Ey [ej] * Oy [øy] (ø is mid-close front rounded) * Aw [&#608;u]
 * Ow [ow]

Short vowels are those in short yunmus, and long vowels in long yunmus. All short vowels are pronounced with tighter, smaller enclosure of lips than are their long counterparts.

Orthography Long yunmus followed by consonants:

* Ru: o Ab Ad Ag   * Ping/shang/qu: o Am An Ang o Eg Eng o Ib Id Im In         o Od Og On Ong o Ud Un

Short yunmus followed by consonants:

* Ru: o Ap At Ak   * P/S/Q: o Amp Ant Ank o Ek Enk o Ot Ok Ont Onk

Tones

1. Yin1Ping2 or high Yin1Ru4 (Yamp1Penk4 cum high Yamp1Yap6): a1, ä (umlaut) 2. Yin1Shang3(Yamp1Seong5): a2, ã (tilde) 3. Yin1Qu4 or low Yin1Ru4 (Yamp1Hoy3 cum low Yamp1Yap6): a3, â (circumflex) 4. Yang2Ping2(Yeong4Penk4): a4, a (plain) 5. Yang2Shang3(Yeong4Seong5): a5, á (acute) 6. Yang2Qu4(Yeong4Hoy3): a6, à (grave)

'''6 tones represented by numerical scales of pitch, "1" being the lowest, "6" the highest"

* First: "Zäw" tone, scale= 66 * Second: "Hãw" tone, scale= 35 * Third: "Dîm" tone, scale= 44 * Fourth: "Ho" tone, scale= 11 * Fifth: "Mów", scale=24
 * Sixth: "Dòw", scale=22

Either the tone numbers 1-6 or the diacritic marks may be used


 * note: a shortcut for memorizing all 6 of them is a couplet:

Zaw1 Haw2 Dim3, Ho4 Mow2 Dow6 Zhou1 Kou3 Dian4, He2 Mu3 Du4 (Mandarin) (&#21608;&#21475;&#24215;, &#27827;&#22982;&#28193;)

Zhoukoudian is an archeological site near Beijing containing a 500,000 year old Homo Erectus habitat; Hemudu is a Zhejiang archeological site of Neolithic human activities

Sample Text sample in the Standard Cantonese Penk3yamp1 (simplified chinese text are place holders for now):

trad. simp. pinyin Penkyamp meaning &#21271;&#20140; &#21271;&#20140; Bei3 jing1 Bak1 genk1 Beijing &#33457; &#33457; Hua1 Fa1 flower &#23531; &#23531; Xie3 Se3 write &#23383; &#23383; Zi4 Zi6 chinese character &#25105; &#25105; Wo3 Ngo5 I, me &#28246; &#28246; Hu2 Wu4 lake &#38772; &#38772; Xue1 Heo1 boot &#26609; &#26609; Zhu4 Ceu5 pillar t s ba4 lah1 one of the interjections at the end of a sentence &#22750; &#22750; Huai4 Wai6 bad &#22806; &#22806; Wai4 Ngoi6 outside &#32972; &#32972; Bei4 Bui3 back &#25945; &#25945; Jiao1 Gau3 teach &#33136; &#33136; Yao1 Yiu1 waist &#32954; &#32954; Fei4 Fay3 lung &#22320; &#22320; Di4 Dey6 ground t s Zhui1 Zoy1 persue &#29399; &#29399; Gou3 Gaw2 dog &#36335; &#36335; Lu4 Low6 road &#40232; &#40232; Ya1 Ngab3 duck &#27578; &#27578; Sha1 Sad3 kill &#30334; &#30334; Bai3 Bag3 hundred &#19977; &#19977; San1 Sam1 three &#24930; &#24930; Man4 Man6 slow &#34892; &#34892; Xing2 Hang4 walk &#21127; &#21127; Ju4 Keg6 drama &#37857; &#37857; Jing4 Geng3 mirror &#38913; &#38913; Ye4 Yib6 page &#29105; &#29105; Re4 Yid6 hot &#21133; &#21133; Jian4 Gim3 sword &#32218; &#32218; Xian4 Sin3 thread &#28212; &#28212; Ke3 Hod3 thirst &#22283; &#22283; Guo2 Guog3 state,nation &#23736; &#23736; An4 Ngon6 shore &#24171; &#24171; Bang1 Bong1 help &#27963; &#27963; Huo2 Wud6 to live &#25563; &#25563; Huan4 Wun6 exchange, replace &#24613; &#24613; Ji2 Gap1 hasty &#22833; &#22833; Shi1 Sat1 lost &#24471; &#24471; De2 Dak1 gain &#24515; &#24515; Xin1 Samp1 heart &#26032; &#26032; Xin1 Sant1 new &#29983; &#29983; Sheng1 Sank1 student &#39135; &#39135; Shi2 Sek6 to eat &#31934; &#31934; Jing1 Zenk1 essence &#20986; &#20986; Chu1 Cot1 outside &#21741; &#21741; Ku1 Hok1 to cry, weep &#20449; &#20449; Xin4 Sont3 to trust &#20013; &#20013; Zhong1 Zonk1 middle

Location of this article
Why not move it to Penkyamp? --Jiang

If Penkyamp is just a type of Cantonese Romanization, then this article needs to be split. --Jiang 11:12, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * I agree, but note that there aren't any writeups on other Cantonese romanizations besides Penkyamp. --Xiaopo's Talk 20:35, Dec 24, 2003 (UTC)

Who invented the system?
Who invented Penkyamp? Where is its official home page? Or, is this an original research? I am familiar with the popular romanization schemes of Cantonese, and I am surprised to see an unfamiliar system widely used in Wikipedia. I checked the history and found that it was first posted by an anonymous user!

The article seems to say that the system is an improvement to the Jyutping system proposed by the Linguistic Society of Hong Kong. So which organization or group is behind this system? Can supporters of this system find it and add it to the article? -- Felix Wan 02:18, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Today I found a clue on how the article got into Wikipedia. I found an archive at an discussion forum:
 * Penkyamp, ideal Cantonese romanization for Hong Kong and Guangdong's mother tong
 * This link is the search that found the discussion
 * The old article in Wikipedia even claimed that it is a standard in Guangzhou, Hong Kong, Kuala Lumpur, Vancouver and San Francisco. That was very dishonest and was later changed. However, the current version is still misleading. Some people, like the editors of omniglot, are clearly misled. The comparison of Jyutping and Penkyamp to Hepburn and Kunrei, first proposed by anonymous user 129.100.152.206, is also misleading. Hepburn is the de facto system and Kunrei is proposed by the Japanese government. Neither Jyutping nor Penkyamp has gained such popularity or officiality.


 * Meanwhile, I do not propose a vote for removal. I believe it is not just an original research, but a viable movement to write Cantonese using Latin alphabets. I am only trying to rephrase the description to make it less misleading and more NPOV. Supporters of the system please correct me if what I am saying is not the fact.
 * -- Felix Wan 01:48, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

from VfD
For reference, the discussion about the deletion nomination can be found at Votes for deletion/Penkyamp. Rossami (talk)