User talk:Fenlandman

Welcome!
Hello, Fenlandman, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful: Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place  before the question. Again, welcome! Fiddle  Faddle  20:04, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
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Please stop
You are making a huge mess with the Perse articles. Please look at the Perse School for Girls talk page, and stop. You are new, so you did this in good faith, but please stop and think. Fiddle  Faddle  20:04, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome and the tip - it's kind of tricky and you are right, I am getting to grips with it as a newbie. The schools are kind of tricky too and loads of people are confused here - reckon you are right that Perse School for Girls needs to be merged with the Stephen Perse Foundation page - it is one school. --Fenlandman (talk) 20:12, 3 August 2013 (UTC)


 * What I've done is to set 'procedures' in place to get some help in doing what you need to do. I would help if I were an expert in the schools.


 * Put simply, the following things need to happen:
 * Merge the information you have added into the original Perse article
 * Blank the new article (by you as its creator)
 * Get an admin to move the enhanced Perse article over the top of the blanked article.
 * This preserves the entire edit histories, something you have not yet any idea about.


 * There is a way of getting help. Type on this page (you need an admin, and I am not one, and explain the help you need. Point them to Talk:Perse School for Girls and do your best to explain. No-one minds a new editor who makes a mess by accident, so don;t even be embarrassed.  Fiddle   Faddle  20:19, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

That's really decent of you - there are two totally different schools - Perse and Stephen Perse Foundation (they are historically linked but not now). Perse Girls has become The Stephen Perse Foundation - does that make sense? So ... I guess the Perse Girls article needs to be overwritten as you say. I will follow your advice. It's important that The Perse article (that's a different school, remember!) doesn't get tangled up in this other than having a reciprocal link I would have thought? --Fenlandman (talk) 20:25, 3 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Get your thoughts clear, and list what needs to happen. Then ask for the help you need. All will work out just fine. We all need help at the start. If I could work out what to do and had the admin toolkit I'd help you myself. As it is I can just offer basic advice. Fiddle   Faddle  20:26, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

hello - I am a newbie on Wikipedia and am trying establish clear and uptodate Wikipedia entries for some schools in Cambridge, UK. At the moment there are inconsistencies and poor cross references. The Stephen Perse Foundation has been in the local and national media a lot in recent weeks / months and I noticed that there was no Wikipedia entry for it so I had a go. I am REALLY SORRY if this has made a bit of a mess - genuine, first time mistake.

I have written a new entry for the Stephen Perse Foundation with what I hope is a good range of references from independent sources (national papers etc). Perse Girls School has changed its name in recent years and is now part of the Stephen Perse Foundation. Do note, "Perse School" is a total different school although with the same historical foundation (hence the need to acknowledge this in their entry too and to cross reference between both schools. This is what I think needs to happen:


 * 1) The material that I have added in the new Stephen Perse Foundation article needs to be merged into the Perse Girls article.
 * 2) The new Stephen Perse article needs to be deleted (I am afraid I don't know how to do this)
 * 3) The improved Perse Girls article then needs to be renamed as Stephen Perse Foundation
 * 4) Wikipedia searches for Perse Girls and for Perse School for Girls need to be redirected to Stephen Perse Foundation.

Please can you let me know what I should do - I am very willing to help but don't want to cause more confusions. thank you --Fenlandman (talk) 21:14, 3 August 2013 (UTC)


 * My suggestion would be as follows:
 * Merge the articles' content yourself; that's done via regular editing and doesn't require any special tools.
 * When that's done, summon an admin to kill off the Stephen Perse Foundation article. That can be done in various ways; the easiest is probably for you as the author and lone significant contributor to add db-author to the very top (including the curly brackets). That will nominate it for speedy deletion.
 * When that article is gone, we can move the current Perse School for Girls article to its place. There's already a move discussion at Talk:Perse School for Girls; that will do. Alternatively you can ask for help again when we're at that point; that might speed things up.
 * When the article is moved, the old title will automatically be turned into a redirect to the new title, and either the user performing the move or a bot will update all the redirects that point to the current title, including Perse Girls.
 * So the merger is what you should work on; before that's done the rest can't really proceed. Huon (talk) 22:29, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

great. I will get onto this in the next two days. I suspect I might need another bit of help. I don't want to mess it up! As long as we end up with one article that is titled: Stephen Perse Foundation. Will this be easier if I merge the content into Stephen Perse Foundation OR into Perse Girls and then ask for it to be renamed?--Fenlandman (talk) 22:34, 3 August 2013 (UTC)


 * You should merge the content into the Perse School for Girls article because that one has a lengthy history we need to maintain for copyright reasons. Take your time, and don't hesitate to ask if there's anything we may help you with. Happy editing! Huon (talk) 23:42, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I have now merged the content of Stephen Perse Foundation article into Perse School for Girls (as suggested by Huon
 * I now need help again


 * 1. Is the edit / merge up to the required standard? - I have added a range of references - I see there was a note in 2012 to say there were not sufficient - are there enough now?
 * 2. I don't know what to do about the CATEGORIES - such as seen in the list of "notable former pupils". Please advise.
 * 3. Should I now request delete the Stephen Perse Foundation article? (I don't want to pull the plug on it too soon)
 * 4. If all is in order, the Perse School for Girls entry needs its title name changed to Stephen Perse Foundation and a redirect put on any search for Perse Girls or Perse School for Girls so that they go to the new page - please can an admin make this happen?


 * I was REALLY impressed and amazed at how fast my previous question / problem was answered. It would be great to know if I am doing things right before I offer to right another article. Thanks --Fenlandman (talk) 20:17, 5 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I have deleted the duplicate article and moved Perse School for Girls to Stephen Perse Foundation (the old title is now a redirect). I'll also update the other redirects so they point to the correct article.
 * Regarding the category, you want to change "Category:People educated at the Perse School for Girls" into Category:People educated by the Stephen Perse Foundation" or something like that? That is a little difficult; the place to launch such a discussion would be WP:Categories for discussion. However, I expect most of the members of that category were educated when it was still named the "Perse School for Girls", so it may be best to simply leave it alone for now.
 * The sources are still rather thin. Entire sections don't cite any sources; others only cite the school's own website. The Telegraph and the Sunday Times certainly are good sources, but if the school's own website is the only source for significant amounts of content, it's probably not all that important in the first place. Huon (talk) 22:56, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

thanks Huon this is great. I agree with you about the category issue - all those in that list we educated under the old name.

John Maynard Keynes
I have discovered one more alum - it is John Maynard Keynes as the school apparently did accept boys to its nursey around the turn of the century - that is an interesting story! There is an photo for it too which I have found. --Fenlandman (talk) 09:05, 6 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I am interested to learn that you have evidence that John Maynard Keynes attended the Perse School for Girls. Keynes' early education was a bone of contention on Wikipedia for a while.  I found http://www.maynardkeynes.org/keynes-career-timeline.html and edited Keynes' page to reflect his brief attendance at the Perse School Kindergarten (someone later changed it to nursery without checking the cited source - duh).  According to this source, which seems reasonably reliable, in "1890 Keynes attends the Perse School Kindergarten while receiving elementary educational instruction at home. 1892 Keynes becomes a pupil at St Faith's preparatory school. He attends as a day boy (a non-boarder)." In 1897, Keynes went to Eton.
 * At the time I considered the two years Keynes spent at the Perse insignificant in comparison to his subsequent education at St Faith's, Eton and King's, and I did not even add him to the Perse School alumni.
 * It is plausible that the Perse School for Girls, as it was then, in 1890, ran a Kindergarten that admitted boys. But what is the evidence for this?  And what evidence is there that Keynes attended this rather than a Kindergarten run at The Perse School which was a boy's school?  Do you have in mind the photo reproduced on page 8 of 130 years of Perse Girls - Stephen Perse Foundation.  The date given in the caption, '1907', is suspect, as by this year Keynes would have been 24 and graduated at King's.  However, the text below is confirmatory.
 * I am not convinced that Keynes' attendance for two years in Kindergarten warrants a line in the history of the Perse School for Girls, although the school obviously thought it sufficiently interesting to include in their celebratory brochure. However I will edit the Keynes page based on your evidence.
 * I am tagging the line 'citation needed' until a source is referenced. 85.210.165.244 (talk) 12:52, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, I have found numerous sources that confirm that the Kindergarten that Keynes attended was at the Perse School for Girls. I have added references to the more detailed of these sources at Stephen Perse Foundation, and there are more at John Maynard Keynes - all clearly confirm or are ambiguous with none to the contrary.  It seems Keynes actually only attended part-time (five mornings a week), was often absent due to illness, for about a year, when he was taken out and tutored at home.  He didn't seem to do particularly well at the Perse, but went on to flourish at St Faith's and Eton.
 * It is referred to as a Kindergarten (not a nursery) in all the sources. Keynes went there in 1889.  The Kindergarten closed in 1920.  The Junior department opened in Bateman Street in 1948, according to page 25 of 130 years of Perse Girls - Stephen Perse Foundation, so the Juniors would not have admitted boys at the turn of the century, if at all.  85.210.162.189 (talk) 16:11, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

File permission problem with File:Stephen Perse Foundation Junior School Library.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:Stephen Perse Foundation logo.jpg
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Thanks for this. Please can use advise me on how I can change the copyright on this image - there is no reason why it cannot be completely free access. - if you can let me know how I can make this change then I am happy to. I am sorry that I don't know the details of wikipedia as I am pretty new to it. with thanks --Fenlandman (talk) 09:25, 6 January 2015 (UTC)