User talk:Fergananim/ArchiveVII

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stubs
Clontuskeart:
 * 805 - Baedan, of Cluain Tuaisceirt, died. Anluan, son of Conchobhar, lord of Aidhne, died.

Articles for deletion nomination of Gillabhrenainn Ua hAnradhain
I have nominated Gillabhrenainn Ua hAnradhain, and several other articles that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/Gillabhrenainn Ua hAnradhain. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Lampman (talk) 16:13, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Bishops and Abbots of Clonfert
Hi. I'm sorry, but had to revert your edits on the Bishop of Clonfert article. There weren't any diocesan bishops of Clonfert until the 12th century. Prior to then, the abbots of Clonfert had jurisdiction over his community. (Terroritorial dioceses were only established at the synods of Rathbreasail and Kells along with the diocesan bishops). Some of the abbots were consecrated as bishops, but gives the misconception that they were the bishop of a place or diocese. They were simply abbots who had been consecrated. In fact a few at Clonfert weren't even abbots.

I noticed you are having problem with the various abbot of Clonfert articles. I've created the Abbot of Clonfert article, which lists the abbots from the 6th to the 12th century. It's a basic list at the moment, but could be altered to table of abbots; similar to the table of bishop articles. I hope the list will be of use. - Scrivener-uki (talk) 06:11, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Linking dates
Hello again. Just to let you know, it's not necessary to link to dates or years anymore. see MOS:SYL. - Scrivener-uki (talk) 06:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Ó and O
Hey Fergananim, i am not sure what you mean. Do you want the articles that include Ó in their name moved to new articles with the Ó changed to O? Omegastar (talk) 19:30, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Im sorry, Fergananim, but i do not know how to do that :( Have you tried asking the admins? Omegastar (talk) 13:57, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure if this solves what you asked Omegastar about, if it doesn't - please revert this change. (your talkpage is raterh confusing when you use it like a sandbox btw, but you probably knew that :) All the best, Finn Rindahl (talk) 23:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Kathleen Hughes (historian), category for an English scholar of Irish history
I'm a bit uncertain about how this article (created by you well over a year ago) should be categorized. Hughes was English, born in Middlesborough, and thus not member of category:Irish historians (as this is a category in Historians by nationality). Nonetheless, her field was the medieval Irish Church, so she was indeed a scholar working with Irish history. Category:Celticists covers some I guess, but what I'm looking for is a category for non-Irish citizens working mainly with Irish history. Any suggestions? Best regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 11:19, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Townlands and baronies?
Hope you're feeling OK and life is treating you tolerably well.

Before spending all my pennies on a house, maybe next week, I bought myself some nice Irish books as a (mumble-mumble)th birthday present: Bhreathnach's Kingship and Landscape of Tara and Medieval Ireland: Territorial, Political and Economic Divisions by one Paul MacCotter. The Bhreathnach book is excellent and when I get time I'll be able to polish up a whole heap of articles using it. Same with the MacCotter one, but I'm having a bit of trouble there with my ignorance of Irish geography. Not for the first time, but maybe now's the time to do something about it. Do you know of anything out there on the internet that lists all of the townlands and baronies in Ireland, or maybe there's even a map of them somewhere in an old book or even a new one? I hope this will be ní ansae :-) All the best, Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:43, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Your articles; MacCotter; Bhreathnach; Kelleher
Hi there. I've learned a great deal of value from your articles, and did not know of the existence of MacCotter's Medieval Ireland before your use of him. My copy just came today. It is a fascinating work if missing maps. Do you have other recommendations? I see you mentioned to Angus McClellan that you own Bhreathnach 2005, which I haven't looked at, although judging from the titles in it I suspect the Laigin and Ulaid still come across as irrelevant from Conn of the Hundred Battles onwards (an impossibility, but currently popular it seems). As far as I can tell it is currently considered un-Irish to contest the position or existence of the Uí Néill-Connachta before the 7th century, but who knows. Have you read Kelleher's famous paper Early Irish History and Pseudo-History? DinDraithou (talk) 23:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the recommedations. Byrne I already own and have used extensively, and Medieval Ireland: An Encyclopedia I also have. In the latter I have found some fine articles (Book of Lismore) but then also a few which are quite poor (Dál Cais, Déisi, Eóganachta, Érainn). But Munster is always poorly covered it seems, like another country essentially. Dan M. Wiley, a scholar, should be ashamed of himself for stating with confidence the Dál Cais and Déisi Muman were Érainn.


 * I'll look into your other suggestions. I have little experience with the scribes, genealogists and early scholars themselves, and need to familiarize myself. Thank again. DinDraithou (talk) 19:33, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Marie Breathnach (actress)


The article Marie Breathnach (actress) has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Article on nn actress

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing  will stop the Proposed Deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The Speedy Deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and Articles for Deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Oo7565 (talk) 19:18, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

People from County Galway
Hi there. As Category:People from Ballinasloe it is a subcategory of Category:People from County Galway, there is not need to add the latter to pages containing the former. Would you mind reverting your recent edits?--Damac (talk) 08:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Succession boxes
Hi Fergananim

Well done adding succession boxes to Fintan Coogan, Jnr. I just did a small tweak after your edit, and thought it might help to explain what I did.

First, succession boxes should be below all sections (see WP:FOOTERS), so I moved them down there. And the other thing was to join up the two boxes: the start box and end box only need to be used at the top and bottom of the group of boxes, not around each individual box.

Hope this helps! -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:00, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi, I did some more tweaks, I have used the newer s-bef, s-ttl and s-aft, and added the s-civ as a header and de-linked single years. Hope this helps more! Snappy (talk) 21:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Hey, sounds kinda cool, rather like The Bourne Ultimatium - "Coogan's back. And this time - its political". Anyway, thanks for that. I am going to add more info to each bio but I just wanted to get the dammed things up for once and for all. Hope all is well with you - what's Santa bringing ya? Fergananim (talk) 21:03, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Ferganim, I moved your comment back here to keep discussion in one place.
 * I have been doing a little more tidyup, but it would help if you did some of these things:
 * Don't wikilink single years
 * Pipe links when a successor a predecessor has a disambiguator. It's simple -- use the pipe trick. Instead of , use.
 * Add a few categories. Category:Mayors of Galway for a start, plus categories for years of birth and death if known, otherwise Category:Year of birth missing.
 * In general, though, it's better not to create an article unless there is a little more to say about someone than simply that they held a particuar office. So far these articles are adding nothing that isn't in the list at Mayor of Galway, and unless they are expanded they all all just be redirected to that list. It would be better to create fewer of them, and and at least make them well-formed stubs per WP:STUB. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Sure. I am expanding them at the moment. Thanks very much for the help. Fergananim (talk) 21:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Billy Cameron (Galway)
This is an automated message from CorenSearchBot. I have performed a web search with the contents of Billy Cameron (Galway), and it appears to include a substantial copy of http://www.labour.ie/billycameron. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. See our copyright policy for further details.

This message was placed automatically, and it is possible that the bot is confused and found similarity where none actually exists. If that is the case, you can remove the tag from the article and it would be appreciated if you could drop a note on the maintainer's talk page. CorenSearchBot (talk) 18:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi. Please be sure that material you put on Wikipedia is written entirely in your own words. Minimal alterations, such as when you altered "Born in Shantalla, I was educated at St Enda's and the 'Bish' and then studied Commerce at UCG followed by a Diploma in Computer Programming at Galway IT" to "He was born in Shantalla and educated at St Enda's and the 'Bish' and then studied Commerce at UCG followed by a Diploma in Computer Programming at Galway IT" does not constitute a rewrite in your own words. Text from external sources can only be reused on Wikipedia in accordance with WP:NFC unless it is public domain or otherwise compatibly licensed with Wikipedia, in accordance with copyright policy. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. Will do betterFergananim (talk) 09:39, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Toirdelbach Ua Conchobair
I think his article is fairly high priority for Connacht, now the least well covered of the provinces (Munster used to be until I showed up). It was looking like you were going to put something in his article and since you're the expert on Connacht I didn't want to get in the way and make errors. Maybe I confused you by adding to the refs, but I don't have enough background in the province to be very helpful. DinDraithou (talk) 05:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It's very high priority for me too, but I'm waiting till I have Medieval Ireland: An Encyclopedia at my disposal (christmas present). It has a good section on him, which I can further supplement with other studies. Any help would be appreciated. Fergananim (talk) 01:36, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * This is evil help, but it appears you can get the full pdf any number of ways online, for free. Just google for it. But it does look like a nice thing to own in printed form. Huge pdfs are maddening. DinDraithou (talk) 01:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I tried that, but it dosn't download right for me! Damm! Anyway, it would ruin my Christmas! Good work on the Desi et al; I'm very impressed, especially the map. Fergananim (talk) 01:55, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The map is actually by User:Notuncurious, who appears to be a Welshman. For the O'Connors you might find the following two genealogical memoirs insightful. I added them to O'Conor Don and Irish nobility a few months ago but haven't got around to reading through them.
 * O'Connor, Roderic, A Historical and Genealogical Memoir of the O'Connors, Kings of Connaught, and their Descendants. Dublin: McGlashan & Gill. 1861.
 * O'Donovan, John and the Rt. Hon. Charles Owen O'Conor Don, The O'Conors of Connaught: An Historical Memoir. Dublin: Hodges, Figgis, and Co. 1891.
 * DinDraithou (talk) 05:36, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Linking of dates
Hi, for your information dates and years in articles are only linked when necessray for the article's comprehension (see also MOS:UNLINKYEARS and Linking) Best wishes Phoe   talk   18:57, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Succession boxes - WP:Footers
Hi, a friendly reminder, succession boxes go after See also, References, Sources, External Links sections but before the categories. This edit has been corrected. Please read WP:Footers for further detail. Tx, Snappy (talk) 20:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Dammit, I forgot! Again. Thanks! Fergananim (talk) 02:40, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Charles O’Kelly
This is an automated message from CorenSearchBot. I have performed a web search with the contents of Charles O’Kelly, and it appears to include a substantial copy of http://www.pgil-eirdata.org/html/pgil_datasets/authors/o/OKelly,C/life.htm. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. See our copyright policy for further details.

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 * Its difficult getting information on Kelly, for all his importance as a writer. I hope to improve this before New Year. Fergananim (talk) 09:40, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Note to self

 * Medievel Gaels, 197. Burke, 42. O'Flaherty, 28. Kelly, 22. Bermingham, 18. Lynch, 17. Martyn, 14/15.

Fergananim (talk) 14:18, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Manual of style and other issues
Hi Ferganim

Please could you consider slowing down on your creation of new articles, and making a little more effort to try to follow the Manual of Style. Every time I look at your contributions list, I see a series of problem which editors have discussed with you before, such as:


 * linking dates and years. There are several requests on this page from other editors asking you not to do this, yet recent articles created by you still have linked dates, and in this edit you linked the dates in a pre-existing article, only 4 days after the second request on this talk page not to do so
 * per WP:LEAD, the lead section of an article should be written in sentences, which need a verb. There was no verb in the lead of James Lynch (fitz Ambrose) or of Ger Burke or of Kathleen Villiers-Tuthill, or indeed of any of the other articles I have seen you create
 * where the dates of birth and/or death of a person are known, WP:MOSBIO specifies that the articles should begin: "Sean Citizen (1823–1901) was a ..." or "Sean Citizen (born 1951) is a ...".  .  However, in the articles I have seen you create, you place the dates at the end of the line (if they are there at all)
 * Adding categories. Some basic categories help other editors and readers find people. One particularly important category is Category:Living people, for those who are currently alive (for BLP reasons), but  categories for dates of birth and death are basic biographical data which should be present in all biographical articles.  If you know that someone was born in 1789, add Category:1789 births ... and if you don't know when someone was born, then add Category:Year of birth missing; similarly for a death in 1923, add Category:1923 deaths; or the date of death is missing on someone who would be over 120 years old by now, add Category:Year of death missing
 * Please try to ensure that before you create a biographical article, the person meets the notability criteria set out in WP:BIO. Otherwise the article may be deleted, as I have just proposed doing to Yvonne King.

Best wishes, -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:06, 21 December 2009 (UTC)


 * PS A few further points:
 * Please use edit summaries. They are an essential part of collaborative editing, so that editors can easily track your contributions
 * Please use WP:FOOTNOTES to indicate which sources relate to which facts in the article. A list of sources at the bottom of an article makes it difficult to verify the article
 * please take very great care not to disrupt existing references in an article, as you did in this edit which made it appear that the point you added was referenced, whereas the ref actually applied to the previous sentence. I have reverted that edit, since no reference was supplied for your the sentence you added
 * Thanks! -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:52, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Fergananim, since I posted the above, you have done another 14 edits, with no edit summaries. Please please please do use edit summaries. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:50, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Proposed deletions
I have just proposed deleting the following articles created by you, which all appear to be about persons who do not meet the notability tests set out in WP:BIO



While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing  will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:05, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * A few more proposed deletions:

-- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:11, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "Within Wikipedia, notability is an inclusion criterion based on the encyclopedic suitability of an article topic. The topic of an article should be notable, or "worthy of notice"; that is, "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded."[1] Notable in the sense of being "famous", or "popular"—although not irrelevant—is secondary." In retrospect, I agree with you on many of the above, though not all. How do I go about deleteing an article (its been years!!!)? Fergananim (talk) 00:29, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If it's uncontroversial, use WP:PROD, unless it meets one of the criteria in WP:CSD. For contested deletions, use WP:AFD. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:39, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Thomas Murphy (Tuam)
I have redirected Thomas Murphy (Tuam) to the existing Tom Murphy (playwright).

Please check whether an article already exists before creating a new one. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

M. E. Mitchell
You wrote that M. E. Mitchell was born in 1834, and got his degree in 1956. Those cannot both be true. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:00, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Date linking
Hi, just to make you aware, that dates are no longer linked on Wikipedia (though previously they were). Current policy is stated at WP:UNLINKDATES. Tx, Snappy (talk) 18:36, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Snappy, Ferganim ought to be aware of this. Your notification is the fourth one on this page. :( -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:13, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Billy Cameron (Galway)
An article that you have been involved in editing, Billy Cameron (Galway), has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message.

Michael P. O'Connor (writer)
Hi Fergananim, I was so pleased to find your page on Michael P. O'Connor as I had been meaning to do one on him for a while but never quite got round to it. I've added some information and citations. My interest in him stems from the camp in which he was interned in Borneo, and I have enjoyed reading those of his books that I have been able to get hold of. He is an intriguing character and I only wish I could find out more about him. Cheers, Jasper33 (talk) 12:10, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Jasper, delighted to be of help. I do have a great many Galway authors created, but as with O'Connor have a great deal of difficulty gleaning more information without straying into personal research. Or shall I do a bit and pass it on to yourself for your own purposes? Happy new year, Fergananim (talk) 17:55, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Fergananim, I know what you mean about OR - I think some of my additions might stray dangerously close. The information about him broadcasting to children on Radio Éireann comes from the dust jacket of The More Fool I, for example ... I'm sure there must be information about that out there somewhere, maybe in a history of Radio Éireann?  I found a source about him here  but am unsure how reliable SEARCS webguide is, so haven't added it.  I love the poem - do you know where Rowheen Wood is, by the way?  Also, I know the category "British colonial administrators in Sarawak" might seem a little odd for an Irishman, but the category is rather ambiguously named - it refers to the Britisih administration, rather than the nationality of the individual administrators.  And am I right in calling Irish Irish rather than Gaelic?  Happy New Year to you too. Cheers, Rebecca (must get round to changing my stupid username) Jasper33 (talk) 18:09, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Having just googled Rowheen Wood it links to the SEARCS webpage and that alone - would that be a googlewhack, I wonder? It kind of suggests he might have made the name up ...  Happy New Year again - I really am off this time.  Cheers Rebecca Jasper33 (talk) 18:23, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Rebecca, agus shona an bliana nua (happy 2010!)!. I know someone who might have some additional information, on Irish POW's, of Batu Lintang; let me get back to you on that. Rowheen Wood? Only place I know that sounds like it is the Raheen Woods, just n.w. of Athenry. Rowheen sounds like a bad anglicised form of a Gaeilge term. And I think the category is fine - when in doubt, blame the British! Fergananim (talk) 03:22, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Just read the poem. Certainly sounds like he is refering to a place along the shore of Lough Rea (from which the town Loughrea is named). Corheen springs to mind, though perhaps there is an actual Rowheen somewhere around. 'Row' is an English expressionn of 'roo', propertly ruadh (or rua) which denotes the colour red. The suffix een (properly ín) is a dimunitive, expressing something small topographically, and in familiar and/or affectionate terms for a person. Maybe he just made it up? How did you get interested in the POW's?Fergananim (talk) 03:30, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Agus shona an bliana nua to you too! The poem is in the frontipsiece of Dreamer Awake, his first novel, which goes on to mention the cathedral town of Kilnadore by a lake with a Stony Island, and the Slievemeen Mountains and Rowheen Woods nearby - I wonder if Kilnadore is a fictionalised version of Loughrea? The novel is biographical to some extent I'm sure as the protagonist grows up in a cathedral town in Ireland, goes to university in Dublin and then goes on to work in Malaya. Taking of which - I'm excited to hear you might have info on Irish POWs in the camp. Ooh! As for me, my maternal grandparents were in the camp and wanting to find out more about what they went through has become something of an obsession. I started with the Wikipedia page but it has grown like Topsy - I have been interviewing surviving POWs and internees (sadly, understandably thin on the ground) and their families and gathering as much information as I can. At the end of it all (finances willing) - a book or a PhD, who knows? It's certainly an itch I've got to scratch! Cheers Rebecca Jasper33 (talk) 11:58, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds like Loughrea, alright - St. Brendan's cathedral, McCooge's Island, the Sliabh Aughty (mountions), and possibly woods at Corheen. Fergananim (talk) 12:25, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi again Fergananim. Thanks for the lead - I have bunged an email off to Bernard so fingers crossed.  Hope your O'Connor search is fruitful.  I wonder if there might be something about him in the Radio Éireann archives? Jasper33 (talk) 09:52, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Can I have your e-mail? I've found a little on his family which may interest you. Fergananim (talk) 20:11, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course - I have an 'Email this user' button on the left hand side of my user page and my user talk page screens. Look forward to hearing what you've got!  Cheers Rebecca Jasper33 (talk) 12:09, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Please use edit summaries
Hi there. When editing an article on Wikipedia there is a small field labeled "Edit summary" under the main edit-box. It looks like this: The text written here will appear on the Recent changes page, in the page revision history, on the diff page, and in the watchlists of users who are watching that article. See m:Help:Edit summary for full information on this feature.

Filling in the edit summary field greatly helps your fellow contributors in understanding what you changed, so please always fill in the edit summary field. If you are adding a section, please do not just keep the previous section's header in the Edit summary field – please fill in your new section's name instead. Thank you. . -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:57, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

O'Connor again
Thank-you for that, Fergananim, and how interesting - that's definitely our man. I hadn't realised he was reading stories into the sixties. I shall do a bit more googling with the info you've kindly provided and see what comes up, if anything. I'm not keen on giving out my email address because of spamming: the 'email this user' link is in the 'toolbox' on the left hand side of the page, under the 'search' and 'interaction' boxes. I would have emailed you but you don't seem to have your email enabled as there is no link in your toolbox. I don't suppose - here's a big ask - you could email me a scan of the page of the book? Don't worry about saying no if it's too much hassle. I'm just curious to see what he looks like! Rebecca Jasper33 (talk) 10:36, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm stumped - I'm starting to wonder if what I see on my page is different from what everyone else sees ... Thanks for offering to send the stuff, and via Bernard - hope he doesn't mind! Cheers Rebecca Jasper33 (talk) 22:13, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * And I checked with and without glasses! Fergananim (talk) 00:36, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Email
I asked on the help page and you can't see my email as you have to have your email enabled too to be able to see mine. If you want to enable it, go to 'my preferences' in the list of actions at the top right of your page, and at the bottom of the 'my preferences' page is a section for your email options. Rebecca Jasper33 (talk) 10:53, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Thomas Woods (Galway)


The article Thomas Woods (Galway) has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Minor author, does not appear to meet any of the criteria of WP:AUTHOR, such as being widely cited, originating an important new concept, or having a particularly notable body of work.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing  will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.  Glenfarclas  ( talk ) 04:43, 13 January 2010 (UTC)