User talk:Filll/supernatural

After reading this and pondering it a bit, I realize that kenosis is right. There are several different ways in which science and scientists can interact with the supernatural:


 * 1) to investigate something with a supernatural cause with conventional scientific tools and then reach a conclusion
 * 2) to not find an answer to a scientific puzzle, and ascribe its explanation to supernatural means
 * 3) to assume a priori that a given supernatural cause is correct, and to refuse to accept any other explanation no matter what the evidence
 * 4) for scientists to have some respect and awe about nature and a feeling that there might be some driving natural principle or principles
 * 5) for scientists to subscribe to some subset of religious supernatural beliefs, but not in the area of their work
 * 6) for scientists to use their beliefs in the supernatural to influence their scientific work.

What is objectionable in science are interactions 2, 3 and 6. What is not objectionable is interaction 4. What can be objectionable if they use their position of authority to make pronouncements about other fields of science is interaction 5. Interaction 1 can be frowned upon by science as being a waste of resources, but if the work is conducted with proper scientific skepticism and honesty and the conclusions are drawn in a conventional scientific fashion, interaction 1 is still in the scientific realm.--Filll 15:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Consider the following scenario
Now how would lawyers feel if the following were pushed by the public and by members of some small eccentric religious sect:
 * All criminals that had not been seen committing a crime by the jury had to be released immediately. DNA evidence was ruled inadmissable, and confessions, and fingerprint evidence, and circumstantial evidence and eyewitness accounts were all thrown out. Unless the jury sees the crime for themselves, there is no proof it did not happen, so we have to just assume the opposite.
 * Any criminal defendent is allowed to use miracles as part of his defense. So if my neighbor saw me killing the postman and burying him in the backyard, I can claim that he did not see me, he saw a vision, or that I was miraculously in Cleveland on the day of the murder, even though I have no evidence to support me being in Cleveland and in fact there are 30 pieces of evidence that I was home in Rochester instead.
 * Questioning a "miracle" defense, or questioning the discarding of DNA evidence or fingerprint evidence will cause the judge, jury or lawyers to be condemned and cursed roundly, and told by the general public that they are damned and will burn in hell forever for questioning the word of God himself-They are in fact, defaming God almighty by questioning the miracle defense or introducing evidence from the past which no one saw.
 * There were rumblings about changing the laws to require the introduction of the miracle defense, and the discarding of all past evidence. Anyone who disagrees with these principles is automatically suspect. Politicians opposed to the miracle defense and discarding of past evidence will be voted out of office. Judges opposed will be impeached and removed from the bench.
 * Lawyers and judges who disagree will be viewed as nonbelievers and atheists and blasphemers for doubting the word of God himself
 * The expertise of lawyers and judges will be called into question since it is irrelevant-they are all atheists anyway, so who can trust them?--Filll 21:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I seem to recall having read several leading people from the DI advocating that science include the supernatural. I think I have heard it in radio interviews as well. Although there are occasional forays by scientists into study of the supernatural, like ESP, ouija boards, seances, ghosts, astrology, homeopathy, remote viewing, etc, mainly to try to establish proof that it exists and the result is that they have ALL failed. We are talking about 3 or 4 hundred years of failure here. Literally thousands of attempts or more by the best and the brightest (including Newton who tried very hard for decades to prove the truth of the bible and came up empty). It is on this basis that mainstream scientists veer away from the supernatural. Pseudoscientists, and occasional debunkers and skeptics address it, but it has long been looked down on, given its incredibly bad track record. Normally, if a theory fails repeated tests for 10 or 20 years, it is discarded. In the case of the supernatural, we are talking about several centuries of effort that has resulted in nothing but failure. Abject, embarassing, miserable, career-ending, money-wasting failure and disappointment. So the door has slowly closed on the supernatural. And who could blame science for closing it? It is not a useful investment of time or effort or money, and other scarce resources. If you are a professor and you claim you want to study witchcraft, your career is over. Even though you have tenure, fellow scientists will avoid you. Science cannot afford to encourage extremely radical views, and it does not. It might be unfair, but that is reality. And industrial science is much much much worse, let me tell you. The people that invented the computer mouse? Fired. The people who invented the flat panel display? Fired. The people who invented the cell phone? Fired. The people who invented the ethernet? Fired. The people who invented the laser printer? Fired. The people who invented the digital wrist watch? Fired. The people who invented VOIP? Fired. I could give hundreds of examples. So in the face of this, you expect science to entertain something that has been shown to be a crock of crap over and over for several hundred years? Good luck. You are not much of a realist and not much of a capitalist if you think that you can do that. Market forces alone will not allow it, nor should they. We do not have the money to pay for nonsense. And creation science and intelligent design, as near as we can tell, is nonsense.--Filll 01:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)