User talk:Five Years/Archive 7

'''This is Archive #7 for User talk:Five Years

School fees
In hindsight, I retract that as a suggestion for a new article as it would be non-notable. Also, I never suggested articles, just one. If you really are keen on the idea though, I think that a better idea may be a table in the PSA article as a start. &mdash;Moondyne 07:35, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem is, school fees have nothing to do with PSA directly, so on second thoughts I'm a bit unsure what the best thing to do is. I suggest putting it into the PSA article in the interim. &mdash;Moondyne 07:58, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you'll find TC at one end and Hale at the other. Adjectives like Poor and Elite I find both misleading and a bit objectionable.  &mdash;Moondyne 08:04, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Actual School fees in general I've seen them referred to as violating WP:NOT and referred to as proof the article is advertising the school and getting tagged under WP:CSD blatant advertising. You'll need to establish both notability and context for the fees. Gnangarra 08:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No because you still only displaying the logo and as such its fair use Gnangarra 12:22, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Elite: "A special group or social class of people which have a superior intellectual, social or economic status as, the elite of society". I don't see what school fees have to do with this.  Perhaps a simple, "expensive" would be a more appropriate descriptor. &mdash;Moondyne 13:48, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Rhodes Scholarship
The section heading explicitly says "Notable Rhodes Scholarship recipients", and that's a reasonable criteria to have. Over 90 scholarships are awarded each year and to list every one would make the list both enormous and useless. &mdash;Moondyne 14:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Jack and Boor are only marginally notable based on their sporting accomplishments, but, just as importantly, are you able to create a meaningful article beyond two sentences using reliable sources? IMO, both would fail a AfD unless you were able to quote significant new references from what's quoted above. &mdash;Moondyne 14:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Fenbury is probably OK based on his ADB entry. But remember, the article must actually document his notability. It is not enough to make vague claims or to merely say he was an ex-student of Aquinas College.  &mdash;Moondyne

P-block
And I have replied there, in the negative. &mdash;Moondyne 15:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * TY I caution you that your involvement with suggested alterations to Auroranorth probation conditions after his acceptance of them is appearing as if your intention is be disruptive. I'm not sure whether you have a concern about your own probation conditions or whether your actions are a retaliation to Aurornorths admittance and apology for causing the extension to your block, either way I suggest you stop such actions. Gnangarra 16:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Trevor Jack

 * Rhodes Scholar and cricketer -
 * Notability to warrant an article only 2 first class games, inclusion in a List of Rhodes Scholars buut nothing beyond with the links you've provided. Gnangarra 08:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Alaric Pinder Boor

 * Lieutenant in the British Army, KIA 1917 & WAFL Player & Rhodes Scholar - click on WAFL players killed in the line of duty here too
 * 20 WAFL games 15 for East Perth 1911-1913, 5 for Subi 1910, the second link isnt WP:RS. You'll need a source for detail. Gnangarra 08:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

David Maxwell Fenbury

 * 

Sir Thomas William Meagher

 * 
 * I have written this here

Albert Edwin Lynch

 * 

Ignatius Boyle

 * 

Thomas Molloy

 * 

Kimberley Michael Durack

 * 
 * OK for Durack. Will need to do some reading re the others and will revert tomorrow. &mdash;Moondyne 15:40, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Philip Masel

 * 
 * Army work in (1943-44) - Temporary Major, seems pretty notable. OBE adds a little. Member of various boards adds a little. Basically hinges on whether being major is notable IMO. Notable
 * his honours and awards (military)
 * &mdash;Moondyne 15:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Gilbert Henderson

 * 
 * No, prob not.

Guido Saverio Carlo Mayrhofer

 * 
 * Not Notable.

Thomas Ronan

 * 
 * Maybe, not too sure bout Authors. Could be Notable
 * Seemed like he could be (out of the ones listed I would have picked this one) but I'm not big on authors either, I think you'd need to find out what he'd written and determine what it contributed to society at that time. e.g. did it become a set text or anything? (Note this is not approval, just some random ideas on how notability might be ascertained for an author) Orderinchaos 10:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 5 or so novels, head of the NT tourist bureau, MLA for Batchelor for less that 12 months. From the reference you've given, thats about all you'd be able to write plus a bit of padding. That's a   for me. &mdash;Moondyne 15:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Sir Lewis Burne

 * 
 * President Master Builders' Association of Victoria, Commonwealth Reconstruction Training Scheme, Master Builders' Federation of Australia, Building Industry Congress & ors. Got knighted. Notable
 * &mdash;Moondyne 15:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

John Kilfoyle

 * 
 * Not Notable

Sir John Lavan
Supreme Court of WA. Former Judge. Per previous discussions regarding judges, he is notable. Any objections? please lodge them below. Twenty Years 08:44, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

TfD

 * Old PSA userbox
 * Speedied. &mdash;Moondyne 07:37, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

AfD

 * Ardross Primary School
 * I am putting this up for AfD per OIC


 * Carmel School (Perth)
 * Cancelled proposal


 * Hampton Park Primary
 * I am putting this up for AfD per OIC


 * The first and third could even be WP:PROD'd as they'd be fairly uncontroversial, but the second may actually be notable as (as far as I know anyway) Perth's only Jewish school. Orderinchaos 09:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * COI for me here on Carmel(worked for them for 4 years 89-92) no comments beyond this discussion, its no different to Aquinas or Guildford Grammer just a different religion, though its not as old. Gnangarra 12:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree w/OIC. Carmel and its close association with Perth Hebrew School is important. &mdash;Moondyne 14:00, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Hale School
twenty years I caution your editing of the Hale School page. The information on this page was a lot larger in scale than it was previously before you deleted most of it. I do not believe you need to delete this much as it was all very valuable information about a very important school. I will add more information in the future and ask you no longer edit this page. It does not need to be the same as Wesley and Aquinas, especially since there history and school is no where near as big as Hale's.
 * Most of your edits were fine, and it is ridiculous to say that you deleted most of it. I suggest you are entitled to ignore the request that you not edit the article.
 * I agree with deleting the mission statement. The sporting facilities list is reasonably encyclopedic but needed to be made less biased. Publications usually aren't encyclopedic - certainly fortnightly newsletters aren't - but I think The Cygnet is notable enough, and possibly The Haleian.
 * Hesperian 12:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, don't know how I did that. I meant to leave the mission statement out, but reinclude a less biased version of the sporting facilities, and a shortened version of the publications. I'll try again. Hesperian 12:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

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Fenbury
Nice work. I still don't see how he earned an ADB article though ;) &mdash;Moondyne 14:16, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I saw it. . Another good job. Congrats.   Re yr 2nd comment, now worries.  There's so much that is notable to write about its not funny.  &mdash;Moondyne 14:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Lynch
Something missing? I'm not sure what you're asking. No references maybe. And there's nothing there that asserts any notability that I can see. It'd be a WP:SD candidate to be honest. &mdash;Moondyne 01:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Boyle
Looks OK. I gave it a minor copyedit. &mdash;Moondyne 12:23, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Need your comments
Hello! I hope you are feeling fine. I would like you to view my comments here. Your advise on this issue would be much appreciated. -- S iva1979 Talk to me 13:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Kim Durack
I previously said OK to this but regret that I have to retract that. For some reason I'd thought it was Michael Patrick Durack rather than Kimberley Michael Durack we were talking about (whom I'd coincidentally been discussing with User:Fred.e here on the same day). I've prodded Kim for a second opinion. My apologies. &mdash;Moondyne 16:18, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm OK with a Durack family article. And a separate Michael Patrick Durack.   Something like Harvey family would be great. &mdash;Moondyne 16:28, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Get Mary Durack's Kings in Grass Castles out of your library. Its good reading and an epic story that'll tell you everything you need to know. &mdash;Moondyne 16:35, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, it is but trust me it will be worth it. &mdash;Moondyne 16:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Deleted the article as non notable -- notability isnt inherited, failed candidates arent notable either, there was nothing else to establish notability. Gnangarra 07:19, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Presbyterian Ladies' College, Sydney
Hi Twenty Years, I was just wondering if you could explain why you deleted the facilities section from this article (the other removed parts I can kind of understand). I noticed that there is no explanation on the discussion page. Thanks Loopla 13:19, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that Twenty Years, you've done a good job at cleaning it up. I've been working on it so long that im a bit over it and not sure what else to do. Cheers. Loopla 01:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Aquinas
I have made some initial comments on Aquinas College, Perth. IvoShandor 14:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I am glad you like my assessment, (and I haven't even started looking at content yet) so often people get so mad, when I am only trying to help. I guess when you're blunt it comes off as condescending sometimes, which is never my intention but is inevitable when you're critiquing something. As for my suggestions, take them or leave them as you please. But I would submit that even an act as simple as converting the notable alumni section to prose can offer a chance to put forth much more information than just a listing of them. So even if you don't merge the section it would probably still be useful as prose. Just my opinion.IvoShandor 13:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Answer to Questions
Auroranorth has been unblocked conditional that he doesnt edit school related articles that includes, the school, its facilities, its staff and it students/alumni. I also have a concern about your focus on Aquinus Alumni as being a reason for writing articles, while some of these people barely meet the notability threshold most are falling well short. I'd like to see your talents focused on more worthy subjects there are many people from/associated with WA that didnt go to Aquinas that still dont have articles. Additionally the category of Aquinus Alumni is also a concern as most these people while they did attend aquinas it is only a high school as such in the scheme of their lives its a minor foot note. Gnangarra 15:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The Beast
Now this beast is back! Auroranorth 13:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Elonka RFA
Hello, a conversion is in progress here which concerns you. Your comments are welcome, and no, I don't think you've done anything wrong, but I think due diligence is a good idea. Jehochman Talk 15:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

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Mailbox
Yes, you have mail. Open! Auroranorth 13:43, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Requests for adminship/Elonka 2
Thank you for taking the time to participate at the discussion in my Request for Adminship. Unfortunately the nomination did not succeed, but please rest assured that I am still in full support of the Wikipedia project. I listened carefully to all concerns, and will do my best to incorporate all of the constructive advice that I received, into my future actions on Wikipedia. If you can think of any other ways that I can further improve, please let me know. Best wishes, Elonka 04:37, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Editor 'review'
Can I get your views on my contributions and how you think I could improve them? I would appreciate all input. Thank you very much! Auroranorth 10:41, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Category
I wish to create "Category:High schools in Western Australia" and "Category:Primary schools in Western Australia - the high schools cat is used in Queensland school cats. Im interested in fixing up these categories...

There is one Category:High schools in Western Australia. Have a close look at existing categories in  before creating any new ones (and then ask here 1st). &mdash;Moondyne 15:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Creation list:
 * Primary schools in Western Australia -- PS are generally not notable, any PS that are can reside in the main schools in WA cat. Gnangarra
 * Boarding schools in WA^ -- yeah this is ok
 * Boys schools in WA^ -- unnecessary
 * Girls schools in WA^ -- unnecessary


 * I agree with Gnangarra: no, yes, no, no. &mdash;Moondyne 09:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I can probarbly see why you said no to the first one (being too small). But 3 and 4 i think would be good as sub-branches of Boys schools in Aust, and Girls schools in Aust. Twenty Years 09:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Its a judgement we have to make I suppose. We don't need a forest of categories at the bottom of every article simply because we can.  I would suggest there's more important things to do that worry about creating these new categories (which then sets a precedent for the same in other states, and which don't currently exist).  For example, why do we have all of the schools organisations inside the schools categories (they aren't schools)?  &mdash;Moondyne 10:03, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Those two (3 & 4) wouldnt actually create any more categories at the bottom of articles, because the main cat (girls schools in Aust) would be removes, so the same number of categories will be used. I see what you are trying to say, and agree with it, but it is completely irrelevant in this case. My goal here is to make Western Australia school articles amongst the best on Wikipedia, and sorting out the categories of the articles is just the start. I have every school in WA watchlisted (and ors) and i think that with my experience in schools on wikipedia i can fix it.Twenty Years 14:44, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see how adding categories greatly improves an article. Most schools are not-notable and hence don't have articles, so perhaps List of schools in Western Australia and List of schools in Perth, Western Australia could both be improved (or possibly merged) to incorporate this information which would make them more useful.  See Categories, lists, and series boxes. &mdash;Moondyne 01:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Can I say though that its great to see you getting involved in work outside the PSA schools. &mdash;Moondyne 01:55, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The reason for no to the boys/girls cats is that it disipates the number of articles down significantly and categories with small numbers just end up being merged back to higher levels, critical mass is about 30 articles. I also agree with moondyne it is good to you expanding your horizons. Gnangarra 02:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Brassall State Primary School
''Can we prod this? Twenty Years 08:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)''
 * Not at the moment, if it warranted proding I would have done instead of notabiliy/primary soucrs tags since its +100 years I AGF in the first instance. You may notice that I have already deleted 3 or 4 and prod 1 today as well as adding those tags to a couple. Gnangarra 08:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Merger
''Hey, can we merge the lists (per talk). It is quite ridiculous. Ive actually noticed that some states have schools in (capital city) and schools in (state). I feel this is duplication, can we just merge the 2 lists into WA, and provide a redirect frm Perth to the WA one? Twenty Years 08:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)''
 * I suggest you post a merge proposal to both lists talk pages as well as a proposed layout on one so anyone who has previously worked on these gets a chance to comment. Suggest give it a week or so before doing anything drastic.  In the meantime, you could work on a sandbox version.  http://www2.eddept.wa.edu.au/dev60cgi/sdrrwcgi.exe?sdr0880 is a presumably complete reference source. &mdash;Moondyne 08:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * the number of schools on a combined list could be an issue Gnangarra 08:42, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * True. Above src for Govt schools only.  You'll need a another src for the privates. &mdash;Moondyne 08:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Is size such an issue? List of watercourses in Western Australia has about 3500 entries an we're talking less that half that here. Primary/secondary splits may be complicated and there are some schools that span both. &mdash;Moondyne 09:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

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Caution
While your intentions are good, that matter needs to stop I've reverted both yours and the other users edits, this matter has ended there is no need for comment, If the matter does proceed else where let it but you dont need to become part of the issue Gnangarra 11:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikimania 2008
Hey! I'm contacting all the members of wikiproject Perth because, I have put in an incomplete bid for Perth to hold Wikimania 2008. Please show your support by adding your name to the list and help contribute by improving our bid which is incomplete and located here - thanks Talk to symode09's or How's my driving? 18:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
Rather than asking why not?, how about you explain why you think these six are notable. And an ADB entry does not count in the criteria. &mdash;Moondyne 03:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You seem to have established that some of these arent notable, now for the others besides ADB.online what other sources have you got. An ADB article alone isnt sufficient to establish notability. Gnangarra 13:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This is useless, cant find anything on google, and i know nothing else. Personally, for my mind they pass the basic WP:N test, because this info comes from a published third party source (ADB). The only issues then is that: will it pass community standards - regardless of what the rules are, its the community that counts, and i think Burne, Ronan & Masel, by those community standards are clearly notable. Twenty Years 13:35, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * "Clearly notable", I think not. Marginal, at best.  If you disagree strongly, then there's nothing stopping you writting something up in your sandbox and then asking. &mdash;Moondyne 15:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * John Lavan http://www.lavanlegal.com.au/pages/mHistory.html as this isnt an independent source, he needs have been the subject of multiple independent reliable sources.  Gnangarra 01:19, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Commentary
Because a person attended Aquinas or any other PSA doesnt make them notable, to be notable the person needs to have the subject of multiple independent reliable sources. Your obsession with Aquinas students is starting to be disruptive, though I've ask before I'm asking again are you doing this as a requirement of anything associated with the school? because we are not a playground or a nursery for Aquinas students, any of the teachers or staff members monitoring your efforts are requested to contact us via email to discuss the matter. TY for the time being creation or request for creation of any articles that are related to Aquinas will be considered as disruption. Gnangarra 01:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Sourcing
Obituaries of Lavan were published in The West Australian, 12 December 2006, page 53; and in Brief, February 2007, pages 6–7. This is enough evidence of notability to satisfy me... but only just. However, what we don't need is yet another poorly sourced article on a semi-notable person ending up at AfD where a lot of people's time gets wasted. Therefore I will support creation of an article on him, if and only if Twenty Years is prepared to go to the trouble of obtaining and using both of these sources. Hesperian 02:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Based on what Hesperian has provided this person appears to be notable but I'll wait and see what information these sources hold. TY you need to be doing this research first not just throwing names of students who are/were in positions that would make them likely candidates for notability. Gnangarra 03:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I will have to put the release of this article on hold until a later date (when i can get to the State Library). Apolgies for any inconvenience. Twenty Years 08:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

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