User talk:Fizzycreative

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Great North Eastern Railway (Alliance Rail)
Hi there. I note that you removed the proposed deletion notice from this page but didn't explain your reasons for doing so. It would be very much appreciated if you could do so. Thanks. Adambro (talk) 15:02, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Great North Eastern Railway (Alliance Rail)
An article that you have been involved in editing, Great North Eastern Railway (Alliance Rail), has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Adambro (talk) 15:22, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Alliance Rail
Hi there,

Regarding the recent proposed deletion of the GNER (Alliance Rail) article, I am acting on behalf of the Cheif Exec of Alliance rail. Please see his comments below:

"Alliance Rail Holdings (Alliance) is a UK Company (Registered in England Number: 07026295) and has submitted plans to the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) to begin the operation of new rail services on a number of routes from 2013 through its subsidiaries Great North Eastern Railway Co. Ltd (GNER) and Great North Western Railway Co Ltd (GNWR).

The fact that information has not yet appeared on the ORR website is not something that Alliance can control, but the applications were submitted on 23 September 2009.

The person seeking to have the entry removed clearly has little understanding of the process and the timescales involved with these types of applications. For instance Grand Central (another rail open access operator) was established in 2000 but did not begin operations until late 2007. Similarly proposed services by Grand Union (now to be operated by Grand Central) for Bradford to Kings Cross were first listed in 2005, but services are not due to commence until May 2010.

Alliance has many supportive stakeholders, and the applications have also been favourably reviewed by Passenger Focus (see their news archive), and the fact that these applications take so long has also been clearly identified by Alliance’s own press release. Alliance also has an appointed point of contact within Network Rail.

Whether services actually become operational will ultimately be decided by the ORR, and Alliance has stated, the process for determining such applications is unlikely to be concluded until late in 2010 or early in 2011.

There is also a large reference to Alliance’s proposals in the latest Rail Magazine, dated 2 December 2009."

I am unsure of the processes involved here so your advice will be well received.Fizzycreative (talk) 15:39, 4 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your comments regarding this on my talk page. I've moved them here to keep this in one place. I am watching this page so will be aware of any response.


 * The general advice as set out in Conflict of interest is that editors should avoid editing articles which they are associated, due to problems for example in maintaining a neutral point of view.


 * I am the person who has proposed this article be deleted. I am fairly familiar with the process to apply to operate new rail services and the timescales that can be involved.


 * The proposed deletion of the article is not a suggestion that I, or Wikipedia in general, consider the services to be unlikely to commence. Personally, I will admit to having doubts but I support the proposals and would be delighted to see them succeed. However, the problem remains that the coverage of the proposals by reliable sources as is required by Wikipedia guidelines is limited to discussion of the Alliance Rail press release. Wikipedia considers the historical significance of subjects in deciding whether a topic is notable enough to merit an article. At the moment, particularly due to the lack of information from the ORR website, there isn't a great deal to demonstrate that this will get very far. A track access/operator licensing application on the ORR website would go a long way to demonstrate the seriousness of these proposals.


 * I am sure Mr Yeowart can appreciate, based upon his past experiences, that proposals often have limited success, Grand Central's plans services between Newcastle upon Tyne and Manchester across the Calder Valley for example. In similar situations it is questionable whether an entire article is merited. In the case of the failed GC Calder Valley plans, that is dealt with by way of a mention in the Grand Central Railway article history section. If Alliance Rail successfully launch some services then it might be appropriate to deal any earlier proposals in the same way.


 * I've opened a discussion about this article at Articles for deletion/Great North Eastern Railway (Alliance Rail) which will allow other members of the Wikipedia community to consider this issue and decide whether to keep the article or to delete it, for now at least.


 * A more appropriate way of dealing with this subject could be to merge the GNER and GNWR articles into an Alliance Rail covering both subjects and that will probably be considered in the deletion discussion. Adambro (talk) 16:25, 4 December 2009 (UTC)