User talk:Flamarial

Hanpu
Hi Flamarial, and thanks for your careful edits on the Hanpu page. We just seem to have a different interpretation of that sentence from Manzhou yuanliu kao! The structure of 新羅王金姓則金之逺派 seems to be "A 則 B," which, in this case, means "A is B."


 * A is "The surname 'Kim' [金] of the Kings of Silla"


 * B is "a distant branch of the Jin (金)"

If my interpretation is right, the whole sentence reads: "The surname Kim (金) of the Kings of Silla is a distant branch of the Jin (金)." (Where "branch" does imply descent.) My guess (without having studied the entire original text) is that the Manchus, who claimed descent from the Jin Jurchens, wanted to get closer to Korea by showing that Jin and the Silla royal family were somehow related. The problem with that argument is that "Jin" in the Silla royal family was a surname, and the other "Jin" was a dynastic name (since the surname of the Jin royal family was Wanyan).

Anyway, I'm not sure what that sentence really shows, apart from the opinion of an 18th-century sovereign and the scholars who served him. I think we should just delete this sentence, because it comes from a primary source. In other words, it's not drawn from what Wikipedia would consider a reliable source. Using primary source directly constitutes original research. Manzhou yuanliu kao is not even reliable for studying the history of the Manchus (see Pamela Crossley, "Manzhou yuanliu kao and the Formalization of the Manchu Heritage," Journal of Asian Studies 46.4 [1987]: 761-790), let alone the pre-Jin Jurchen, so even well-translated claims from this source would not belong on this page.

On a side note (since you seem to be interested in this topic), I found another passage of interest in Manzhou yuanliu kao on the origin of the dynastic name Jin: 新羅王金姓相傳数十世則金之自新羅來無疑建國之名亦應取此. My translation: "The surname Jin [Kim] of the kings of Silla has been transmitted for dozens of generations; Jin's having come from Silla is therefore not to be doubted. The name Jin for the dynasty must have been taken from there too." The point of the compilers was to show that Hanpu came not from Goryeo, but from Silla, because the terms "Silla" and "Goryeo" were often used interchangeably in the Jinshi 金史. The problem is still the same as above: why would the surname Kim/Jin prove a relationship with Jin (a dynastic name)? Anyway, I thought it was just a fun note! Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 02:04, 2 March 2009 (UTC)