User talk:Flans44

License tagging for Image:Admiralflans44.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Admiralflans44.jpg. Wikipedia gets thousands of images uploaded every day, and in order to verify that the images can be legally used on Wikipedia, the source and copyright status must be indicated. Images need to have an image tag applied to the image description page indicating the copyright status of the image. This uniform and easy-to-understand method of indicating the license status allows potential re-users of the images to know what they are allowed to do with the images.

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This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. If you need help on selecting a tag to use, or in adding the tag to the image description, feel free to post a message at Media copyright questions. 05:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia!
Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia! Thank you for all your contributions to Starfleet ranks and insignia.

I want to help you with one of your images. You forgot to include a copywrite tag with Image:Admiralflans44.jpg. Unless you add a copywrite tag to it, it will be deleted in a week. To fix it, go to the image's page and click "edit." Next, you need to add a copywrite tag to it. If you own this work and wish to release it into the public domain, add  == Licensing ==  to the page and save it. If you do not own it or do not wish to released it into the public domain, pick the appropriate tag for this image from the list of all image copyright tags.

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Do you have a pin of this?
Hey, do you have a real photograph of this pin? Image:Star Trek Film OF3a.png If you don't, I was planning on putting in an edited photo of it so it will match the others. Jecowa 04:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and put up an edited photo of it, but feel free to replace it if you take a photo of the real thing. Thanks for all the awesome photos! Jecowa 03:57, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Image tagging for Image:MCPO 2nd Class.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:MCPO 2nd Class.jpg. The image has been identified as not specifying the source and creator of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the source and creator of the image on the image's description page, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided source information for them as well.

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This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. 04:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Image tagging for Image:MCPO 2nd Classb.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:MCPO 2nd Classb.jpg. The image has been identified as not specifying the source and creator of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the source and creator of the image on the image's description page, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided source information for them as well.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:
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This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. 05:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Coupla questions
Posed a couple of questions on the Starfleet ranks etc. talk page. Would appreciate your response. --EEMeltonIV 03:29, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You can edit an article's talk page the same way you can an article or my talk page. Please also sign your comments with ~ at the end. Most importantly, though, please on the article talk page articulate a rationale for a) the separate table that illustrates just a color change and b) keeping MCPO2 separate. These additions add unnecessary clutter to the article, especially at lower resolutions. --EEMeltonIV 04:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Non-free use disputed for Image:MCPO 2nd Class.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:MCPO 2nd Class.jpg. However, there is a concern that the rationale you have provided for using this image under "fair use" may be invalid. Please read the instructions at Non-free content carefully, then go to the image description page and clarify why you think the image qualifies for fair use. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted after seven days according to our Criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 19:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image (Image:MCPO 2nd Class.jpg)
Thanks for uploading Image:MCPO 2nd Class.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot 00:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:MCPO 2nd Classb.jpg
Thank you for uploading Image:MCPO 2nd Classb.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the image. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. Jusjih 14:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Starfleet ranks and insignia
Hello, can you discuss the changes you wish to make to the article on the article's talk page? Edit warring to keep the content you want in the article isn't the proper way to handle it. Check out Resolving disputes for more information. Dreadstar †  05:00, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The first thing to consider is that the content you want to add to the article would need to be adequately sourced for it to be included. I recommend suggesting a section be added to the article for such non-canon information. Here's an older discussion on the subject of non-canon content: Non-canon Star Trek.  Dreadstar  †  07:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * While I have your attention, can you explain the source of those images of Starfleet insignia that you uploaded? Is it jewelry that you own and/or made, and scanned / took pictures of, or...? DS 14:14, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I answered your concerns about that article here. Hope it helps. -OberRanks (talk) 14:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Possibly unfree Image:Starfleetflans44.jpg
An image that you uploaded or altered, Image:Starfleetflans44.jpg, has been listed at Possibly unfree images because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the image's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the image description page. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Powers T 12:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, Flans. I'm sorry you didn't see the notice I placed on your talk page in time to bring up your concerns at our discussion area.  The reason I nominated that image and not the others is because I was using it as a test case.  I was hoping to stimulate some discussion on whether those images are acceptable or not.
 * Of course, as Future Perfect points out, the Public Domain tag you placed on those images is not acceptable; you don't own the designs depicted in those photographs, and thus you cannot release them into the public domain. (Your images are derivative works.)  I would suggest that if you wish to keep the other images from that article, you should tag them with an appropriate Non-free use rationale.
 * -- Powers T 23:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I just got off the phone with my lawyer. I own the pins that I took the photos of. You cannot copyright a pin but any picture you take is in fact yours. This just simply is not a "derivitive work." Design has nothing to do with the issue. If I take a picture of a car, I own the picture, the designers of the car can't claim ownership of the picture that I took. --Flans44 23:37, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with you Flans, it's just that there are too many people out there with the kind of idea you are reading above. I really dont understand the logic about taking a picture of a rank pin means it falls under Paramount copyright.  If that were true, then every personal photo taken at a Star Trek convention, which has people wearing Star Trek uniforms, would belong to Paramount since the insignia on those uniforms, seen in these personal photos, are "copyrighted".  Or at least that is what this logic would have us believe.  Another issue came up on Wikipedia Commons about the rank pips from the newer series.  I know very little about the Commons but there were people saying that four gold circles in row were copyright violations and even "****" was a violation since it weas implying the "copyrighted" Captain insignia from the Next Generation.  My point is I gave up on this nonsense long ago and now devote myself to Memory Alpha.  It is a far easier bunch to work with when dealing with this kind of thing.  You would be welcome over there I think.  Perhaps we'll meet again. -OberRanks (talk) 03:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course the pin can be copyrighted. Your lawyer either misunderstood you, or you misunderstood your lawyer.  It is true that you own the pictures.  That is absolutely true.  However, the pictures, while owned by you, are still derivative works, and while you can license your photography however you like, you cannot license the pin design, and it is not free for use as Wikipedia requires.  Paramount/CBS owns that pin design.  Pictures, taken at conventions, that contain the copyrighted designs would usually be accepted under the principle of de minimis use -- the copyrighted designs are not the main focus of the image.  In your case, the copyrighted design is the sole focus of the image.
 * The intricacies of copyright law are complex and hard to understand. What seems like common sense -- "I took this picture, therefore I can do whatever I want with it" -- doesn't always apply.  On Wikipedia, we require one of two things: 1) images that are completely or effectively completely free from copyright, or licensed under a free-use license, or 2) a very strong rationale for using non-free images.  Unfortunately, your images of Starfleet insignia have neither.
 * Flans, we want your contributions, but they have to conform to our requirements. If you're having trouble understanding the details of copyright law, you're not alone.  I would suggest dropping by the Wikimedia Commons and reading up on their copyright pages.  They have extensive experience with this sort of thing and their articles explain things very well.
 * Thanks! -- Powers T 12:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Starfleet Insignia
I just got off the phone with my lawyer. I own the pins that I took the photos of. You cannot copyright a pin but any picture you take is in fact yours. This just simply is not a "derivitive work." Design has nothing to do with the issue. If I take a picture of a car, I own the picture, the designers of the car can't claim ownership of the picture that I took. --Flans44 23:36, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Lawyers and what not
Look. I don't know who you are and I highly doubt that you have council retained for matter like this, but when you post in multiple places about "having your lawyer on the phone", it brings us very close to violating wikipedia's policy about legal threats. Please be mindful of the concern this may cause other editors and use dispute resolution to solve your issues with content or other editors. If you feel the image that was deleted was done so incorrectly, you may appeal the deletion through deletion review. Other avenues, such as haranguing the deleting admin or asking a different admin to restore the image, will probably prove fruitless. Remember, deletion of an image doesn't mean that your contributions are not wanted, just that a particular image was misindentified. If I can help with anything, please let me know. Protonk (talk) 01:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Please also read WP:NFCC. Even in the unlikely event you to have an attorney working on this (and note again WP:NLT), contributions must be in the bounds of Wikipedia's policy/attitude toward copyright, not your attorney's. --EEMIV (talk) 02:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Starfleetinsig.jpg
Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:Starfleetinsig.jpg. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia constitutes fair use. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. --EEMIV (talk) 05:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Please provide a fair-use rationale to justify Wikipedia's use of your derivative image. --EEMIV (talk) 05:43, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey dude, we are obviously both trying to make this a good article. I am just not a pro at Wikipedia.  Can you please just help me instead of pointing out what I can't do.  I don't have the time for all of this.

Thanks, --Flans44 05:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You might want to ask for help at Media copyright questions. Powers T 13:00, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Powers I thought I did that. As far as I can tell I put in the thing about non-free use and put in a rationale.  Can you personally tell me if there is something wrong I did.  I just really want to be able to make this a good article.  Unfortunately people like EEMIV are hellbent on being a pain and not offering any real help.  With his name calling of this being a derivative image and such.  It just simply doesn't fit the definition.  Can you please just help me?  Any would be greatly appreciated.  --Flans44 15:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * So Powers, I have now added a rationale. Is there something else that I need to do now to keep my image from being automatically deleted?  --Flans44 16:40, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me, although it is a derivative image. You'll also need to do the same for each of the images in that article -- they all have the same problem and the same potential solution.  If you still have questions or concerns, the nice people at Media copyright questions would be happy to answer them with a little more definitiveness than I can.  Powers T 17:52, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for looking at it Powers. This article has been looked at and reviewed by Wikipedia so many times. Why is it that only now there is a problem? I don't have time to worry about all of the other photos. I'll worry about them on an "as needed" basis. If this becomes too much of a problem I may just have to leave the article behind and unfortunately the article will greatly suffer. --Flans44 18:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Your recent edits
Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 19:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Possibly unfree File:Starfleetinsig real.jpg
A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Starfleetinsig real.jpg, has been listed at Possibly unfree files because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the file's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the file description page. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Powers T 13:26, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That file has now been deleted; as such, I've listed the rest of the insignia images you uploaded as well. You can find the entry at Possibly unfree files/2009 October 13 if you have any interest.  Powers T 23:29, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry you didn't see this notice in time to correct any problems with the images. You'll note that they've all been deleted because they were not free images.  If you think they can still be of use in the article, you'll have to ask the deleting administrator to undelete them, and then you will have to provide valid non-free use rationales for each of them.  Powers T 12:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Again, I apologize that you didn't see the notice before the images were deleted. The reason I did not pursue deletion of these images a year ago is because at the time, you added a fair-use rationale to the one image under discussion. I had hoped that you would do the same for the other images. When I recently came upon this set of images again, I noticed that they still had no fair-use rationale. At that point, the infringing content had been here too long for me to ignore it any longer, so I nominated them for deletion. At any time, you or anyone else could have come in with reasons why they should be kept but no one did. No action on Wikipedia is irreversible, though; you can follow the advice I gave you above and have the files undeleted just as easily as they were deleted. Tossing around insults and invective, however, won't have the same productive results. Powers T 14:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * At any time you could have sent me a message before nominating them for deletion. There was never even a message on the discussion page of the article when the recent deletions were happening.  Which pic were we discussing that I added the rationale too?  I'll gladly add the same fair-use rationale to the others as well.  In the future just reach out to me to make the article better and in the future I'll hold off on the insults.  My apologies.  Can you help me make this work for the good of the article?  I'm no Wikipedia pro and don't even know who to go to for undeletion and what to do.  Thanks.  --Flans44 (talk) 15:45, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I posted a message right here letting you know that deletion was being considered. It's right up at the top of this section.  Again, I'm sorry you didn't see it, but there's only so much I can do to notify you.  As I said above, if you contact the admin who deleted the images, you can ask him or her to undelete them so that you can add fair-use rationales, although I'm honestly not 100% sure whether they really fit our guidelines for non-free use.  Powers T 15:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

So if you're not sure about whether or not that fits does that mean that down the road you may flag them for deletion again if I go through this process to have them restored? I just don't want to go to any more trouble on this article if it is a lost cause. For some people this may be easy stuff but I'm not great at wikipedia and this will take me a lot of time to do. Thanks. --Flans44 (talk) 16:30, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's definitely not easy at all! But there are lots of people who are willing to help, if you know where to ask.  =)  For myself, I don't think I have any interest in drawing this out, so I don't think I'll be trying to get the images deleted if they have fair-use rationales.  Powers T 17:32, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

So Powers, who is the deleting admin? How do I find that out so that I can contact he/she to undelete them? Thanks --Flans44 (talk) 04:41, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Just click on the redlink and you'll see the deletion log. Powers T 15:26, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Found it, thanks! --Flans44 (talk) 18:23, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey Powers, I just added rationales to the pins that were un-deleted and put them back in the article. Can you see any other potential problems with my images or the article? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks! --Flans44 (talk) 08:05, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Starfleetinsig real.jpg still has no rationale. For the others, I would personally have suggested using the Template:Non-free use rationale, because it ensures that the major points at WP:NFCC are all covered, but what you have written on the image pages is probably all right.  Powers T 13:39, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey Powers, as of yesterday File:Starfleetinsig real.jpg was still deleted. Good to see it back up now. I'll get the rationale added to the pic sometime today before adding it back to the article. I'll have a look at Template:Non-free use rationale as well. I actually just went off of what I saw from some of the other pics used in that article as they have been there for a while and they seem to have been safe. Thanks again for your help! --Flans44 (talk) 17:15, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Website Invite
You might enjoy my website. I actually have some very good rank and insignia pages, and unlike Wikipedia they can't be deleted! -OberRanks (talk) 11:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks Ober, I'll check it out this weekend! Feel free to use my images there if you'd like!  --Flans44 (talk) 15:46, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Talkback
–Drilnoth (T • C • L) 22:29, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Possibly unfree images (WP:PUI)
You may be interested in the uploads listed there today. Thanks, Black Kite 22:25, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the heads up. Yes these are my images of items that I own.  Is it a matter of me using the wrong licensing codes or what do I need to do to keep them up?  --Flans44 (talk) 22:17, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, they appear to be copied from a copyrighted site... even if they're not, merely making your own versions is copyright violation. Sorry to be problematic about this, but that's the case ... perhaps the article would be OK with a single example? Black Kite 01:54, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

No, they are my images. Not sure about a single example. It is a single example for each rank. Basically I took one image and edited it in photoshop to create a pic for each rank. I don't think Star Trek owns this braid anyway as it was also used in the original Ten Commandments movie. I think it would be hard to say it is copyright infringement because Star Trek isn't the originator of the braid anyway. What do you think? --Flans44 (talk) 08:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Re:Starfleet rank pictures
-  F ASTILY  (T ALK ) 04:23, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Starfleet Rank Pics
I can try to help. I've added another message to Fastily's talk page (I hadn't found your request at that time). Fastily is probably just busy at the moment and will handle the matter as soon as possible. However, if that doesn't work, the issue can be taken to Deletion review. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 13:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * This should be resolved now. There may still be future problems but the images are back and licenced. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 13:02, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:STTOS Starfleet Lieutenant rank.jpg
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Starfleet insignia
Please do not re-insert large amounts of non-free images that fail our non-free image policies. WP:NFCC clearly states that minimal amounts of non-free material must be used - 51 images is plainly not minimal. Also, every individual non-free image must pass each of the ten criteria of WP:NFCC. One example of each type of insignia - as currently - may just about pass all ten criteria of the policy, but any more is clearly a violation. Thank you. Black Kite (t) (c) 16:45, 13 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Can you tell me why you are bringing this up now, several months later when we addressed this back in February? This very issue was discussed between the two of us back then?  Do you have a personal grudge against me or this page for some reason?  --Flans44 (talk) 19:17, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Except it was never addressed. The previous issue was as to whether the images were non-free or not, and it transpired that they were indeed non-free.  Thus, having fifty-one of them in a single article is clearly unacceptable (indeed, if you look at Database reports/Pages containing an unusually high number of non-free files, it was the 5th most unfree page out of 3,000,000).  I tagged the page for improvement as regards WP:NFCC a long while ago, but nothing was done, so I trimmed it back to a number that might be acceptable (though to be honest seven non-free images is still pushing the boundaries).  There's no personal grudge against the page, except that it horribly violated one of our core policies. Black Kite (t) (c) 23:15, 13 May 2010 (UTC)


 * What I am saying is that the issue of the number of files was brought up by you back then to witch I responded but you never responded back. There has to be a way to do this.  I am really not a pro here but is there anything you can think of licensing wise that could make this work and look like the pages for the ranks of the US military?  How do they get away with all of the images they use to represent each and every rank?  Again these pins are mine and I can take a picture of all of them in one file if that would make it better.  What are your thoughts?  Any help would be appreciated.  --Flans44 (talk) 16:53, 14 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The thing is that a lot of the US military images are public domain, and hence free images. Anything that comes from a fictional setting is always non-free.  I agree that it's pretty unfair, but that's the non-free target of Wikipedia.  Probably the best thing is to look at examples of each type of insignia, and suggest ways they could be worked into the article. Black Kite (t) (c) 17:48, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

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Thank you. DASHBot (talk) 05:21, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

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Thank you. DASHBot (talk) 05:30, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

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Thank you. DASHBot (talk) 05:34, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

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Thank you. DASHBot (talk) 05:40, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

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Orphaned non-free image File:STTOS Starfleet Vice Admiral rank.jpg
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Why I reverted your edit to Crush (beverage)
Hi! Please see this edit by you. We don't sign our edits to articles on Wikipedia. Talk pages yes, articles no. Philip Trueman (talk) 15:46, 17 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I figured that was probably why. I didn't mean to sign it and even thought I had removed it but then saw that I hadn't.  Thanks for your help!  Any help you can give me to the "Starfleet Ranks and Insignia" page would be appreciated too.  There has to be a way for me to have my pics there.  Thanks again.  --Flans44 (talk) 16:19, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Starfleet Insignia
Your plan to use many insignia in one image is better than mine. I was working on making a template to create rank insignia from public domain images on Wikimedia Commons. The results were not great but not horrible. The Next Generation ranks were easy enough (such as captain's pins on red or lt commander with no background ) but the original series insignia only just work and the template does not currently work with admirals or maquis-provisionals. It would never have been able to handle the movie era. If you go ahead with your plan, I'll leave my template in my sandbox for now and come back to it at some point in the future as a side project. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 17:03, 19 May 2010 (UTC) PS: The TOS ranks do not work within text but an example of captain's stripes would be:-


 * Unfortunately, the plan is not a good one. User created montages of copyrighted works do not create a single fair use image. You've taken 24 images and turned it into 2 images, but the reality is it is still 24 images. You would need to add fair use rationales for each of the images that makes up the montage. Such montages need to come from the copyright holder, as Black Kite inferred here. Please see item #1 of WP:NFLISTS which covers this. I've removed the images File:Rank Grid.jpg and File:Admiral Braids.jpg and marked them as orphaned. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:58, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry Hammersoft, you are incorrect on this one. As I mentioned in the discussion that you referenced. These all came from a single picture. What was on here before (a month or 2 back) was edited out of the single picture. I have had djustments. Please, lets have more discussion in the future before you make an asssumption and delete my work and orphan my pics. --Flans44 (talk) 17:12, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I made no assumptions. You labeled the image (apparently incorrectly) as your own work. Would you please identify the source of this montage? I'd be surprised is Paramount made it, but I'd be happy to be corrected. TinEye didn't find anything for either image . So, what's the source? What single image did this come from? If Paramount isn't the source, and instead it is as you claim "pic of Starfleet rank pins that I own which were created by the same person that made them for the movies" then you are in the wrong. You are creating a montage of works. WP:NFLISTS #1 stands against this sort of work. If this is in fact a montage you created on your own, then we need a fair use rationale for every single pin in each image. I.e., we're still adding 24 images to the article, not reducing the count by 22. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:23, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

The likely reason that TinEye didn't find it is because yes, this is my own work, these are my items and I did take the photo. If you need proof, I just uploaded another photo of my whole pin collection and you can view it here: http://starfleet1701st.yuku.com/topic/1646/master/1/ This isn't a montage of images, it is a picture I took of items that I own. I have two or more pins for each rank, each carefully arranged on a display and framed. To whittle it down and get rid of the pins that are not up for discussion, and have only 1 rank pin per rank, I had to do some cropping, and adding titles etc. --Flans44 (talk) 20:29, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * And the problem still remains that you would need a rationale for each one of these pins. Taking them together doesn't suddenly clear them of copyright resulting in one fair use claim for the entire set. Each one of these carries a copyright on it. This is why user created montages are so often not a good idea. There are some exceptions. This isn't one of them. If Paramount created this, then fine because it's a single work they produced. But they didn't; you did. So even though this are two files, there are still 24 copyrighted works. No reduction in the amount of use has occurred. These files have to go. I'm sorry. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:54, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Again, I think you are assuming too much. Even my rationale states that these are assumed to be copyrighted but that assumption is not held by me. I have never once, seen anywhere that these are copyrighted works by Paramount Pictures. There is no evidence whatsoever that they are copyrighted. They have never put out any literature or official pictures of any of this stuff. There are way too many "copyright police" here that are taking things down that have no business being taken down. Another example is the insignia from the original series. That has been recently removed as people here are assuming they are owned by Paramount Pictures. The fact is that most of this stuff has been used in numerous productions over the years for many different movies and no one person or company owns any of it. This is stuff that wardrobe people find and use. The original Star Trek braid was also used in the black and white version of The 10 Commandments and many other productions. Star Trek doesn't own it, Paramount doesn't own it, NO ONE does. Star Trek didn't get permission from the producers of The 10 Commandments to use a simple braid. The same goes for the Admiral Braids. This stuff has been used a ton by just about any studio that does business with Western Costume (which is about all of them). These are pins and braids. Last I checked you cannot copyright a pin or braid, especially since they have been used numerous times by numerous companies over the years. I'm sorry, but these files don't need to go. --Flans44 (talk) 21:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe you have it backwards. You agree these materials were created by Paramount, or an authorized licensed producer, yes? If so, then we have to presume all of these are copyrighted by Paramount. If they weren't produced by Paramount, they have no business being in the ranks & insignia article. Simply because something has been used many times doesn't mean Paramount doesn't own it. If you believe the original ST braid was used in the Ten Commandments, then prove it and prove that whomever held rights to that image/rank has released rights or can no longer claim rights. I don't think we're going to achieve agreement here. I'm sorry you think I'm the copyright police, but it doesn't affect the copyright status of the image. I'll be placing these for deletion. Thanks, --Hammersoft (talk) 21:43, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

So if you and I disagree then why does this automatically go your way? Shouldn't we appeal this to someone? Otherwise I would just unmark them for deletion. You keep changing what this is about. At first your problem was that you thought this was a montage of images put together. Now the problem is that there is more than one pin in my picture. As you first mentioned, even Black Kite said that one picture or even 2 would be okay even if they have multiple pins in the picture. --Flans44 (talk) 21:56, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry that there was confusion in how you were approached about this. The reality is these pins are copyrighted to Paramount, and even you acknowledged that in your uploads by marking them as non-free. These images together do not attract a single copyright, but attract a copyright for every pin. That's the essence of a user created montage. If Paramount created the montage, then there would be one copyright. Here, that is not the case. No, this does not automatically go my way. I never said it did. I said I was placing the images for deletion, and I have. See below. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:00, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

The confusion comes when people like you come in every 6 months and say that they need to be marked a specific way for them to be okay by Wikipedia standards. Everyone of you have said something different and just when they are marked "how they have to be for Wikipedia standards" another one of you comes in with a completely different interpretation of the rules. They were marked "non-free" as that is what the last person said they had to be. You say that "the reality is these pins are copyrighted by Paramount," where do you have proof of that??? You don't because they aren't! --Flans44 (talk) 22:19, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The problem is the other way round, though - it's not that it needs to be proved that the images are copyright for them to be removed, it's the fact that it needs to be proved that they're not for inclusion. If you can get such proof from Paramount, that's great. Black Kite (t) (c) 23:03, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

File:Rank Grid.jpg listed for deletion
A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Rank Grid.jpg, has been listed at Files for deletion. Please see the to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:57, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

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