User talk:Flavio Zanchi

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Panna cotta
I see that you added the claim that the traditional recipe for panna cotta was thickened with egg whites (not gelatin) and sweetened with honey. I have looked in several Italian cookbooks for such a recipe, but have not found one. Your source for this is a blog, which isn't considered a reliable source under our rules. Can you find a better source?

Also, it appears that panna cotta only really became popular in both Italy and the English-speaking world in the 1980's. I suspect it was popularized by some particular chef. Would you happen to have any information on that?

Thanks, --Macrakis (talk) 20:44, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

The recipe using egg-whites has been used by my family for many generations. That is how I prepare it. I have not seen this recipe in any cookbook yet, will keep looking. My own book is being written, but in English. Here is another webpage that contains the egg-white recipe: http://ricette.giallozafferano.it/Panna-cotta-senza-colla-di-pesce.html But the use of egg-whites to thicken puddings and sauces is quite widespread and precedes the use of other agents such as gelatine. It is not very popular with restaurants because it demands close attention by a good cook and does not lend itself to mass production. But some good restaurants in Italy do it this way. The best example I have is the Trattoria Ostricaro in Mirano, in the Venice metropolitan area. Flavio Zanchi (talk) 21:20, 17 May 2015 (UTC) Flavio Zanchi

Thanks for the answer. It's interesting that the giallozafferano page doesn't present it as more traditional, in fact they say "...per chi ama sperimentare nuove ricette!" I did find a few recipes for panna cotta with egg whites, but they were all on blogs etc. I also found one book, but it turned out to be self-published!

I'm (of course) aware of using whole eggs or egg yolks to thicken liquids, but I'm not familiar with the use of egg whites for this. I agree that purified gelatin is a relatively recent ingredient (1850s?), but then, fresh sweet cream was also a relatively rare ingredient until the invention of centrifugal separators and refrigeration. This essay (not a RS, of course!) argues that panna cotta was a product of the post-WWII period based on that argument. But maybe it's like whipped cream, which was made starting in the 17th century, but seems to have been rare and special until the turn of the 20th century. --Macrakis (talk) 23:31, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. There are two perspectives here: one is the development and use of the popular dessert one can get at restaurants or make at home with industrialised ingredients; the other is what farmers would discover, by accident or experiment, when trying to preserve or salvage excess produce and leftovers. From time immemorial, farmwives would churn milk to produce butter and additional fatty cream for cheesemaking. The drinking of raw milk and the rise of the dairy farm as we know it are definitely 20th century fads, totally dependent on refrigeration. Panna cotta, in structure and ingredients, is quite similar to custard, which is made traditionally with creamy milk, eggs and sugar. The Piedmontese farmers went one step further on using the yolks for pasta and the whites to thicken cream (using yolks and water, instead of whole eggs for pasta produces a harder dough, easier to extrude, dry and preserve - whole eggs are best suited for fresh pasta, to be cooked straight away.) I'll keep looking for better sources, but I think there are not many authorities on pre-industrial Piedmontese farm cooking around. That is an interesting topic of research and I would travel again to Italy, if I could, and root it out.

Flavio Zanchi (talk) 10:00, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Food history is always a challenge! Many cooks (especially non-professionals) don't write down their recipes. On the other hand, starting in the late 19th century, there has been a great deal of interest in "traditional" foods (but see my essay "Original, authentic, and traditional"), often with the same overlay of chauvinism/campanilismo as 19th-century folklore studies—and sometimes even with after-the-fact rusticity (cf. the history of fondue). By the way, I have seen some sources call panna cotta budino delle langhe or bunet, but haven't done much searching on that name yet. What name does your family use? For that matter, what would "panna cotta" be in Piemontese? Best, --Macrakis (talk) 17:30, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

They've always called it "panna cotta". Although originally from somewhere north of Milan, my branch of the family lived around Sant'Agata Feltra, close to San Marino, for most of the 19th century, then spread out and are all over the place now. None of us speak Piemontèis, sadly.Flavio Zanchi (talk) 22:07, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

... and of course the recipe is almost identical to that for crème bavaroise and some recipes for blancmange. --Macrakis (talk) 22:36, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

I've seen today that the article has been completely re-edited and the mention of egg whites totally removed. Granted, there may not be "official" sources for it, but the fact that the egg white version exists should not have been taken out. I give up on this, with my trust of Wikipedia somewhat diminished, but will continue to make panna cotta my way. Flavio Zanchi (talk) 16:39, 23 November 2015 (UTC)


 * It's not a question of "official" sources, but of "reliable" sources — have you read that content guideline? For food history, in particular, I realize it is hard to find reliable sources, but it is also not Wikipedia's goal to document every variant of every recipe. Even most cookbooks are in some sense primary sources, which may tell us what one particular author recommends, but don't tell us how important or prevalent a given variant is. Cookbooks are also notoriously bad sources for food history. --Macrakis (talk) 20:08, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

All sources mentioned in the new version are as unreliable as any. No blogs, but recipe books and passing mentions. Because they have ISBNs they are deemed reliable? They all reproduce hearsay and that goes for the Oxford Guide as well. Number 7, for example, is only a list that has the name "panna cotta" in it, but does not mention anything about ingredients or methods. It is just a space filler that pretends to be a reference. I've read the guidelines, but I thought they would be followed with some consistency. But no matter. I'm out. Flavio Zanchi (talk) 20:30, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

It would be great if you could bring better sources to the article! Re number 7, it is not just a list; there is a full page, whose text I reproduce below for your convenience:
 * 1) CATEGORIA: PASTE FRESCHE E PRODOTTI DELLA PANETTERIA, DELLA BISCOTTERIA, DELLA PASTICCERIA E DELLA CONFETTERIA
 * 2) NOME DEL PRODOTTO: PANNA COTTA
 * 3) CARATTERISTICHE DEL PRODOTTO E TECNICHE DI PRODUZIONE, CONSOLIDATE NEL TEMPO IN BASE AGLI USI LOCALI, UNIFORMI E COSTANTI
 * La “Panna Cotta”, dolce al cucchiaio, è un dolce della tradizione piemontese ed è una sorta di delicato budino bianco ricoperto di zucchero caramellato.
 * Per la sua preparazione occorrono mezzo litro di panna liquida, un terzo di litro di latte intero, 200 grammi di zucchero a velo vanigliato, 3 fogli di colla di pesce, un bicchierino di rhum e mezzo bicchiere di marsala.
 * Si scalda in una casseruola il latte e si scioglie la colla di pesce. Contemporaneamente, in un altro tegame, si porta, sempre mescolando, la panna e lo zucchero quasi a bollore. Si uniscono i miscugli contenuti nei due tegami e si aggiunge il rhum ed il marsala. Si versa, infine, il composto in uno stampo rettangolare da plumcake, precedentemente caramellato e si pone a rassodare, in frigorifero, per almeno tre ore.
 * 4) ZONA DI PRODUZIONE
 * La “Panna Cotta” è oggi prodotta sull’intero territorio del Piemonte.
 * 5) MATERIALI ED ATTREZZATURE SPECIFICHE UTILIZZATI PER LA PREPARAZIONE E L’IMBALLAGGIO DEL PRODOTTO INDICATO NELLA PRESENTE SCHEDA
 * I materiali utilizzati per la preparazione della “Panna Cotta” sono: tegami, frusta e stampo.
 * 6) DESCRIZIONE DEI LOCALI DI PRODUZIONE
 * Il “Panna Cotta” è prodotta nei locali dei laboratori artigianali di pasticceria e di gastronomia, in regola con le attuali disposizioni igienico-sanitarie.
 * 7) DOCUMENTAZIONE ATTESTANTE CHE LE TECNICHE DI PRODUZIONE SONO CONSOLIDATE NEL TEMPO PER UN PERIODO NON INFERIORE AI VENTICINQUE ANNI
 * Si narra che la “Panna Cotta” sia originaria delle Langhe ove sarebbe stata inventata da una signora di origine ungherese, agli inizi del Novecento.
 * E’, da sempre, considerata un dessert al cucchiaio della tradizione culinaria piemontese.
 * Bibliografia:
 * • Sandro Doglio, Dolci Biscotti & Golosità, Unione camere Commercio Industria Artigianato Agricoltura del Piemonte, Daumerie, Asti, 1999, p. 35.

Best, -s --Macrakis (talk) 21:51, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Draft:Vote for Europe concern
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