User talk:Flower f5a9b8

Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2014 August 31#Gender dysphoria
Following discussions on Talk:Gender identity disorder on September 2013 and July-August 2014, I have proposed creating a disambiguation page at Gender dysphoria to distinguish between the subjective experience of bodily incongruence and the DSM-5 medical diagnosis also known as "gender identity disorder" (c.f. the distinction between our articles on Depression (mood) and Major depressive disorder). You are invited to join the discussion here. --April Arcus (talk) 04:26, 31 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I hope some progress can be made. --Flower f5a9b8 (talk) 16:48, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Flower: thank you for your contributions to the GID page. I'm disappointed that your points have not been taken seriously. GID is an antiquated term, and "gender dysphoria" certainly should not redirect there. Most of the information in GID belongs under Gender Dysphoria, and some of it is simply outdated and pathologizing. I'm still very inexperienced at navigating Wikipedia, but I hope some progress can be made Baeddel (talk) 07:05, 19 February 2015 (UTC)


 * , Flower f5a9b8's points were taken seriously, which is why Flower f5a9b8 stated to me near the end of this discussion (the "22:53, 31 August 2014 (UTC)" post) the following: "...I don't think we're at an impasse though, reading the new thread clears things up on my end. On reflection I agree as suggested by April that it would be better to focus on gender dysphoria as the community understands it, because it seems there is division in the medical community over the definition of gender dysphoria. While some such as the APA, the UK NHS and WPATH apparently (from my examples) use it as it's understood in the community to refer to an experience of distress and impairment, others are sticking to the definition of GID and using gender dysphoria as a replacement in name only. Doc James linked a source in the new thread that is consistent with the Medline source provided earlier here; it uses a similar definition to GID. So, I do see where you were coming from and agree with you on the general point now: as medical diagnoses, gender dysphoria and GID cannot be distinguished reliably. Maybe, as Zad suggested, the term is in transition."


 * Wikipedia has rules that it is supposed to follow, and that is what has been done in this case; that is also why I reverted you here, with a followup note here and here. Flyer22 (talk) 16:50, 19 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi, I'm glad to see someone else is interested in reworking the article :)


 * Here is where I last left off. Since then I've been drafting (or at least planning a draft) for a reworked Gender Dysphoria page, and although I don't have much time to work on it I do have a lot of sources and references. I think the important thing is to distinguish between:


 * a) The personal experience of gender dysphoria


 * "It is now understood that the innate gender identity, although powerfully influenced by the sex of the genitalia and the gender of rearing, is not determined by these factors. There is evidence that sex differentiation of the brain may be inconsistent with other sex characteristics, resulting in individuals dressing and/or behaving in a way which is perceived by others as being outside cultural gender norms; these unusual gender expressions may be described as gender variant. Where conforming with these norms causes a persistent personal discomfort, this may be described as gender dysphoria. In many, this includes some level of disgust with the phenotype, since this contradicts the inner sense of gender identity. Gender dysphoria is not a popular term with those experiencing the condition since it has become associated with the DSM-IV ‘clinical diagnosis’ of gender identity disorder published by the American Psychiatric Association. Both these descriptions imply a diagnosis of ‘pathology’ and mental illness, whereas the more neutral term, gender variance, denotes that these departures from stereotypical gender experience and expression are part of a natural, albeit unusual, human development."


 * "A strong and persistent distress with physical sex characteristics, or ascribed social gender role that is incongruent with persistent gender identity;
 * The distress is clinically significant or causes impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning, and this distress or impairment is not solely due to external prejudice or discrimination."
 * - World Health Organisation (WHO) invited WPATH to make recommendations regarding ‘transsexualism’ in the International Classification of Diseases (ICD11) (not yet available). This text, under the new heading ‘gender dysphoria’ is suggested WPATH.


 * Quoted from my post near the end of this debate: Here is a link to WPATH, the World Professional Association for Transgender Health. I recommend reading their "Standards of Care (SOC) for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender Nonconforming People. The SOC are based on the best available science and expert professional consensus". Under "Gender Nonconformity Is Not the Same as Gender Dysphoria" on page 11 of the pdf, it discusses the definition of gender dysphoria and states that "Gender dysphoria refers to discomfort or distress that is caused by a discrepancy between a person’s gender identity and that person’s sex assigned at birth (and the associated gender role and/or primary and secondary sex characteristics) (Fisk, 1974; Knudson, De Cuypere, & Bockting, 2010b)". This is not in reference to any medical diagnosis; the next section is titled "Diagnoses Related to Gender Dysphoria" and starts "Some people experience gender dysphoria at such a level that the distress meets criteria for a formal diagnosis that might be classified as a mental disorder."


 * b) Gender dysphoria/GID/transsexuality, as a pathology/mental illness


 * The current focus of the gender dysphoria/GID article.


 * In this context it is currently not productive to try to distinguish between gender dysphoria (as a diagnosis) and gender identity dysphoria, as I conceded to Flyer in the post they quoted.


 * I believe that an article about the first topic can be written that would stand on its own, given that it is an issue of enormous significance to almost all transgender people. Where that leaves the current GID article could be decided later. I believe that parts of it would be more at home in the main transsexualism article, and what remains could potentially be merged into the new Gender Dysphoria article under a topic about associated and historical diagnoses. Alternatively if they remain separate a disambiguation page could be set up as is the case with depression.


 * Navigating wiki policy and such is pretty confusing at times, but it does all make sense in the end. Don't be put off, how daunting it seems is its biggest problem. — Flower f5a9b8 18:48, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

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