User talk:Flyl03

FYI. I posted this on the talk cypress park page.

Yes. Whispertome, this tragic murder of a child occurred in Cypress Park, now about 24 years ago and resulted in a sensational national news story. And yes, I am quite certain the circumstances surrounding this event were NOT as depicted in newspaper articles or other news media. Living in this neighborhood I have heard multiple and conflicting accounts of what occurred, and if you know anything about gangs and the inner-city, getting people to come forward with the truth is usually next to impossible. But of course the media jumped on this. "Child killed in gang shootout!" It's this fixation with the cheap and sensational that I expect Wikipedia to be above.

What I find truly offensive and inappropriate in your persistent posting of this is:

1) While this 24-year-old shooting is tragic, it is HARDLY definitive of Cypress Park -- an economically struggling but wonderful neighborhood which you are harming by perpetuating a non-neutral and sensational association with gangs and violence which happens to fall into the "if it bleeds it leads" school of journalism.

This is a notable event with some cloudy details that did occur in this neighborhood, but it is NOT the defining event for the neighborhood that you present it to be, and I would argue it not appropriate for this page where people want an overview of the neighborhood, not a biased association implying that the neighborhood is bad or high crime or gang ridden, etc. At best, this should be a small footnote way at the bottom of the page.

2) You continually place your paragraph about the "sensational gang murder" at the top of the article right after the description of Cypress Park as a neighborhood in Los angeles and the table of contents.

This placement clearly implies this is of primary importance and is somehow highly definitive of Cypress Park. You think this should be the first thing someone reads if they want information on Cypress Park, and if so, how is that not biased? I do not believe writing about the most awful and sensational event that ever happened in an economically distressed, but gentrifying inner-city neighborhood serves the interests of neutrality, the residents of Cypress Park, or the Wikipedia community.

Cypress Park is a 100 year-old neighborhood of over 15,000 residents and should not be defined in Wikipedia by a small handful of violent incidents...And as you can see by other people repeatedly deleting your posts, I am not alone in my views. Hurleyvillain (talk) 17:34 8 May 2009 _______________________________________ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hurleyvillain (talk • contribs) 00:51, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Please do not make unexplained deletions. WhisperToMe (talk) 21:26, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

- I removed this as per BLP - We need information about living people to be sourced. We cannot talk about rumors unless, say, The Los Angeles Times talks about the rumors. WhisperToMe (talk) 07:01, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

- First, Flyl03, please don't put comments like this in the article. Please use the talk page Talk:Cypress_Park,_Los_Angeles,_California for this reason. Also, Do not violate BLP - Talking about unsourced rumors about living people without providing a Reliable source is violating BLP - This applies to the article space and talk pages. Also, the Stephanie Kuhen murder IS notable because it got national attention and lead to a moral panic in the 1990s. WhisperToMe (talk) 20:16, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

- First off, please use the talk pages to discuss the events. It is inappropriate to use article pages (as opposed to Talk:Cypress_Park,_Los_Angeles,_California) to discuss the event. Second, as per BLP "The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material." - Therefore if you want to say that people are skeptical about the mainstream account, it is your responsibility to find reliable sources to source this. Wikipedia is based on using Reliable sources, so, yes, as long as I use responsible sources, I, a Houstonian, can write about Cypress Park. Also a Tokyoite can contribute too, as can a Mumbaian. Also you say "Yeah, it only gained media attention because it was some white kid. Duh." - Look, if a moral panic happens, then it is notable. Whether you think the rationale is right or wrong doesn't change the fact that the moral panic happened. Our definition of notable indicates that coverage from reliable sources indicates notability. Therefore an event covered by various reliable sources that is continually referred to is considered to be notable. WhisperToMe (talk) 14:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Alright, let me look at your edits. You said: "There has never been an official reason for what prompted the shooting but speculation has always run rampant that the family was trying to buy drugs." - there is no Official Center for Officialdom - I could look at the sources but one could say "none of the parties in the case stated exactly why the gang members chose to shoot the car" I must also remove everything not sourced. Keep in mind that we have No original research as a rule. If a defense attorney says "XX street is not valid," I suppose you could say that the defense attorney said that. If I find it in one of the sources I'll include it and state who said that. As for the "this would not have become known if she was not White" bit, you have to find a source that states that "I.E. XXX Jameson said YYY" Also I must add NPOV - Please read this to show how to better write about controversial events. I found the speculation bit on the LA times bit, so I will rewrite it to attach who said that the Kuhen family may have been trying to get drugs. See how I said Fregoso said so, and that Robynn Kuhen denied it. If this section gets too cumbersome I could split it into its own article. WhisperToMe (talk) 03:52, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

In the NYT article I'll work in the race controversy. Watch how I attribute the statements. WhisperToMe (talk) 03:56, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Alright - I rewrote and attributed the bits about the defense and the grandmother saying that the Kuhen story was implausible and the bits about "She was White so the media paid attention to her" - Anyway, I haven't found the source that talks about the layout of the street. If the defense talked about that specifically, please indicate which source does so. I'm considering making a new article about the case and leaving a small blurb in the Cypress Park article. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

This article Murder of Stephanie Kuhen has the meat of the info about the case. I pared down the Cypress Park one to the basic facts. Keep in mind I didn't keep the specifics (defense testimony, race stuff) in the Cypress Park article as that would be Undue weight - But the meat is in the new article WhisperToMe (talk) 04:13, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

April 2017
Please do not add unreferenced or poorly referenced information, especially if controversial, to articles or any other page on Wikipedia about living (or recently deceased) persons, as you did to LaVar Ball. Thank you. —Bagumba (talk) 12:51, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

January 2018
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