User talk:Folantin/Archive 1

Thanks for the French composer
I'm really glad you caught the typo/scribal error on the Thomas Hales (dramatist) article. The problem was probably my handwritten notes from the research I did. It's easy enough for me to miss my own /r/. Geogre 11:45, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Welcome!
Welcome from the Opera Project, the most dynamic arts project on Wikipedia (apparently)! Thanks for joining, and I hope that you enjoy editing the opera articles. If you need any help, leave a message on the project talk page, or mine. Best, Moreschi 17:09, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Ponchielli and Verdi
Hello Folatin, I absolutely respect your vote but like to answer to your question "Ponchielli more influential than Verdi?". I confirm this: Ponchielli's operas (especially the last: Marion Delorme) were the model for the composers of the "giovane scuola" (Puccini and Mascagni, who were his pupils at Milan Conservatory of music, Leoncavallo, Giordano and Cilea). The free structure of the melody, the orchestration (see, among the many examples, some great themes accompanied by the harp in La Gioconda, Cavalleria rusticana and Manon Lescaut), the form of the romanza, the renounce to the form of the Cabaletta (still present in Verdi's Aida and even Otello: "Sì pel ciel marmoreo giuro"), the strong veristic effects in Marion Delorme, the Intermezzi sinfonici (Il figliuol prodigo: act IV - Marion Delorme: act II (first version only) and act IV), the acts closed by the typical orchestral perorazioni, the many orchestral (instead of vocal) melodies, everything anticipates the language of those younger italian composers. I agree that Verdi's Falstaff was very influential on Puccini, Wolf-Ferrari and the "Generazione dell'Ottanta", but his former operas show are formally and stylistically far from the operas of Puccini and Co. I love Verdi's operas but think he was more influenced (Donizetti, Mercadante...) than influential. Bye --Al Pereira(talk) 15:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi. You clearly know your stuff! I feel a bit embarrassed now that I doubted your claim. I'm no great expert on this era in Italian opera. I suppose I meant Verdi's influence was wider in a much vaguer sense, with composers like Benjamin Britten claiming him as an inspiration. But I suppose that's more for Verdi's compassion towards his characters than for the actual sound his music makes.

I'm sorry I couldn't vote for Ponchielli on such a short list of composers because people would probably question the absence of Mascagni, Leoncavallo, Boito, Giordano, Cilea and so on, were he included. I've had to sacrifice plenty of favourites myself and the Talk Page is beginning to resemble a massacre of some of the world's finest composers. I would push for Cavalli very strongly once we have some articles on him. He was the most popular opera composer of the 17th century and I think his works are of high quality. As it stands, the list has no Italian-born composers between Monteverdi and Rossini, which is a ridiculous situation. Cheers --Folantin 17:01, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Peer review
Hello, do you have any desire to point your keen eye and keyboard to Concerto delle donne? It's undergoing peer review now, and I'd love to get as many eyes as possible. You can comment at Peer review/Concerto delle donne/archive1. Mak (talk)  22:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I'll have a look but I don't think I'm sufficiently qualified to make a judgement --Folantin 10:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

That list
Thanks for the note. It's no big deal. All I wanted to do was calm things down, and he wound up getting me wound up. I will do my best to reference the list, as I said - I'm not doing to much else on WP anyway, bar getting Opera to GA status. Oh, and I'd like to say bravo for all your brilliant work on annotating the list. I can't remember who did Puccini, but since when is he not verismo? But hey, I'm not a "serious musicologist"; maybe you could explain that to me. Cheers, Moreschi 10:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Sources on List of major opera composers
If you can't provide a complete source including page numbers, do not edit this article while the discussion concerning NPOV issues is going on. Thank you Musikfabrik 23:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

If you can't edit articles without making grammatical sense, then please try to refrain from doing so. Also, please try to avoid pursuing personal vendettas by leaving SHOUTY messages on talk pages. It's very silly. Cheers for your co-operation and have a good one --Folantin 11:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Fascinating info. Thanks. Moreschi 09:32, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

It's nice that you're adding sources, but can you please do it all at once, instead of one at a time? It's more polite to those who wish to view history, among other reasons. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your interest in Paul Wehage.
I do appreciate all of the attention. If you have any other questions, [you can certainly ask them directly. Paul Wehage is one of our most active composers, performers and his research has lead to any number of interesting discoveries in the field of French music. His orchestrations of works by Germaine Tailleferre and research on her life, the six works that Jean Françaix wrote for him--(including an opera...but of Françaix will never be good enough for your list, obviously), his recordings of Pierre Vellones, Antoine Tisné (actually I have to write that article, since he was a Grand Prix de Rome....you won't accuse me of having a POV agenda if I include him, will you?), Steve Reich, Gian Paolo Chiti and through the work of Patricia Adkins Chiti's (opps, another article I have to write....She's a noted Mezzo-soprano and musicologist who's on the European Music Council and on the International music council...of course, this is all entirely POV to add her too, isn't it?) Adkins Chiti Donne in Musica foundation in Rome concerning women in music, any number of premièred of works by notable women composers, including Gloria Coates, Joelle Wallach, Pascale Jakubowski (oops another article to write....oh, all of this is just flooding POV into this work, isn't it?), Irina Loudova and many others.

Of course, all of this is just self-grandizing hidden ads for publications and certainly has absolutely nothing to do with music history. After you finish with Musik Fabrik (strange, they don't have an article....Why do you suppose that is??), you can then go after Boosey and Hawks, Music Sales, Alphonse Leduc, Presser, and any number of publishers who DARE to put articles here simply because they happen to work with people who write music, make recordings, play concerts, do research....I'm supposing that you'll probably not want to bother Ricordi, the Centre de Musique Baroque de Versailles or Oxford University Press (although they're only doing high school level choir music these days, since it sells better) if you want to keep your favorite pets on the site....

Of course, you can just chuck all of this out with yesterday's trash, since it's just these nasty people trying to take advantage of the system here to produce ads for themselves. It couldn't possibly be important and if it is, nobody will notice anyway, will they? Other than the European music council, the International Music council, various performers, composers and scholars whose names you might recognize (or not), people like this -  whose case has been making the rounds in International New Music Circles. You might be surprised who sent me this....
 * If course, NOTHING is as important as being able to use the phrase "lavish splendor" whenever you wish and to be able to decide among the "happy few" what is important and what is not. And of course, it's worth it to do anything to be able to get back to doing this, even if it means that musical content does not get documented. I quite understand. Musikfabrik 13:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * To answer your specific question, this pseudo is not one person. This nickname is obviously connected to Musik Fabrik (this was never hidden, from the first edits made on this pseudo), but is used by a number of people to make edits of materials out of our office.  You will note that not every composer on our roster has an article on this site. However, Paul Wehage, as our artistic director and main researcher, is central to this work.  I am not Paul Wehage, although he does edit out of this pseudo from time to time--he wrote the articles for the category of works by Germaine Tailleferre, for example.  He did not write his own article, nor did he add the information in the article by David W. Solomons or any other phrase associated with him.  In any case, the sources for his article were Jean-Thierry Boisseau's "Histoires de la Musique" (L'Harmattan 2004), the liner notes for the recordings listed under discography, and the repertoire list which comes from the Second edition of "Saxophonists and Their Repertoire" (Londeix et al Indiana University Press 2005).  I believe that between the sources, the publications, the  recordings and the work on other composers with established reputations, he more than fulfills WP:NOT

The article on Germaine Tailleferre is a word-for-word quote from our website, although this is not a problem since we wanted to get the information out. Musikfabrik 13:17, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Please read the above
I am not surprised that you are jumping to conclusions, but if you read the above (perhaps slowly, to help comprehension), you will have your answers. Musikfabrik 14:25, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

You've had your answer. This is not a court of law and quite frankly, I don't think that this discussion would be beneficial to continue. Please consider the subject closed. Musikfabrik 15:17, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Musikfabrik
This user has been blocked for being a shared account and for being a role account, as admitted on this page. I encourage you to continue working on NPOV and sourcing on the opera project pages, but don't stress it too much, I think you guys are making a great start, and if I had more sources available right now I'd wade into the sourcing fray with you. Good luck, and if you have trouble, feel free to let me know on my talk page. Mak (talk)  18:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I also felt uncomfortable with how that "discussion" was going, and somewhat suspicious. No problem about the review, Peirigill was extraordinarily helpful, and with his substantial help it was promoted to Featured article! My first! Anyway, happy editing, Mak (talk)  19:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

List of major opera composers
I too am glad the MusikFabrik business is over. I might agree that NPOV in selection could be improved, but, damn, by the end of it he got to downright bullying, trying to insist that everything fit his list of unstated criteria right now and right this minute. The fact that he didn't really seem to understnad parts of the subject (for instance, his attempts to fix the (admittedly unclear and badly phrased) Monteverdi section) didn't help, and his propensity for all-out deletion of sections at the slightest provocation.... Weel...

...Anyway. I think the major problem with the list was firstly that selection criteria were never set very well, and secondly, there was too much POV waffling over what to include for the "representatives". The clear example I noticed was on its sister list, the List of important operas, where it was decided to add a Gilbert and Sullivan opera, followed promptly by wrangling over which of them people liked best. Whilst H.M.S. Pinafore might, in truth, be the most valid choice if you're only including one, the merits were never discussed: It was an emotional judgement.

As it stands, I'd be inclined to use the lists to get a provably NPOV judgement of what should be on there. I suspect it won't result in huge differences, but it may require some expansion. Once that hurdle's passed, it will then be significantly easier to then argue over what, if anything, should be changed, and about any borderline cases that appear on only one (or two, but in a well-covered time period?) of the lists, but which may still be sufficiently notable to demand inclusion. I'd be wary of adding too many composers not findable on a citable list, lest we end up back where we started.

If you think it useful, feel free to copy this to the talk page. Vanished user talk 10:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Which Halevy does Mary Ann Smart mention: Jacques or Fromental? Or are they the same? Vanished user talk 12:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

As for Sullivan, weel... I've had my share of dealing with people who, when I mention I enjoy him in a discussion on opera, think the best thing to do is to talk about how horrible he is, instead of, say, doing the sensible thing and just saying they don't like him, or keeping silent. What's really annoying is how often it comes out that they don't actually know his music. But, anyway, if this bias is prevelant, it's going to hold back Sullivan on lists. Might still squeak in,t hough - there's a couple mentions. Vanished user talk 12:53, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Knew about the Charpenier one, luckily enough, though the Halevy is slightly confusing. Take it it's something like Jacques Fromental Hálevy? In any case, this ups his rank a bit. Vanished user talk 13:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, yes. Tippett. Do you know that's probably the only theatrical experience that incited me to write a huge parody of it? It abuses Shakespear horribly, and the only good song in it is a quote from another composer - and this is so very obvious. And after we finally get a little nice music, what does he do? Promptly insults it and proposes some rubbish of his own about... something like "I live in a great big city / Where buildings stretch so high / They touch the sky." Precisely that banal. Vanished user talk 13:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * A small portion of Thespis was recently discovered, but, unfortunately, it's three scenes of a five-scene ballet that has nothing to do with the plot. The other two scenes were reconstructed from other Sullivan ballets, and evidence as to length and such from the numbering of the original. Accurate reconstruction? Who knows. But it's the best we'll get, I suppose.

Ironic thing? Have you ever read the libretto for Thespis? It's one of the weakest things Gilbert ever wrote. And yet it's still far esasier to get people to come to Thespis than, say, Rose of Persia or The Mountebanks (opera, which are far stronger pieces.

...Kenyon doesn't mention Puccini? Vanished user talk 14:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Judith Weir
Weir has three cites, but as a very modern composer, she is excluded from at least two, probably more of the lists because they were written before she began composing opera in 1987. Do you think it's worth proposing her inclusion, or is this artificially raising a recent composer before her merit is ascertained? Vanished user talk 21:43, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Mind you, TThe same can be said of John Adams, and he's very heavily cited. Ah, well. Probably not worth wrangling over: The Internatonal Union of Women Musicians will probably do that for us, if the frenzy our friend is trying to whip them into by misquoting our arguements (e.g. changing a comment about how we 'can't make redemption for women not having gotten the chance to write opera in the past: It's too late now' into 'There is no need to consider modern women composers'. Vanished user talk 21:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

List of major opera composers
I've added the section on the lists, but they really should be in standard form with ISBNs, where possible. Can you help? Vanished user talk 13:50, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Arbitration
I have asked for the Jean-Thierry Boisseau case to be put in arbitration here: Requests_for_arbitration Vanished user talk 00:37, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Apprpriate action? Easy enough, comment at the ArbCom case. Moreschi 14:44, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Seen we've hit 3 adnibistrators in favour of hearing? One more and this'll all start getting sorted. Vanished user talk 23:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Jean-Thierry Boisseau
Hello,

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened: Requests for arbitration/Jean-Thierry Boisseau. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Jean-Thierry Boisseau/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Jean-Thierry Boisseau/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Arbitration Clerk FloNight 22:05, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Evidence for Arbitration
...God, the more you dig, the more hypocrisy you find. Branding everyone sexist because they provided lists without men EXACTLY LIKE the one Musikfabrik provided. Vanished user talk 11:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Aye. *adds a mention of his French Encyclopedia things to the Workshop, and to his evidence* Vanished user talk 11:51, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Your comment today on the talk page of the List of Major opera composers article is so well expressed that I think you ought to add it to the Arbitration materials somewhere. I also wish you would go through the flagship "Opera" article and help Moreschi with his project to improve it.  You obviously have the historical perspective and knowledge (and reference sources) to improve what is, IMO, a rather inelegant article.  The flagship article of such an important topic should be a good one.  As Marc Shepherd wrote on his userpage, it is a shame that the best articles on Wikipedia are niche articles like Jabba the Hut.  -- Ssilvers 20:47, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

IAWM
I found their e-mail and invited them all to help, and set up the page to greet them. Let's face it, if the proof's there, they'll have it, and if it exists, then let's use it! Vanished user talk 20:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

G&S
Hello, Folantin. Any interest in joining WP:G&S? Take a look at the "To do" list, and see if anything interests you. There are lots of online resources here to get you started, if you wish to help out. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 23:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

November of last year
Have you seen this, from November 3, 2005? Best wishes, ForDorothy 21:38, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Mail
Just in case you hadn't noticed - you've got some. Moreschi 18:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * And yet more. Are you familiar with John Blow's Ode on the Death of Mr. Henry Purcell? Moreschi 09:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

W. S. Gilbert FA candidate
Dear Folantin: The W. S. Gilbert article has received a lot of work in the past month (and responded to two peer reviews), and it has been nominated as a Featured Article. If you can, please review it and then weigh in on the nomination at Featured article candidates/W. S. Gilbert, or else let us know if you have any further comments or suggestions about the article. Regards, -- Ssilvers 02:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking over the article. By preempted, I meant "cut short" or never even started.  He turned to playwriting instead.  What do you think would be a better word or phrase to express this?  -- Ssilvers 16:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Request for assistance
The moderately fascinating opera-related FA Concerto delle donne is going to be on the main page tomorrow as the featured FA. If you're around tomorrow, would you mind keeping an eye on it and try to repel the horde of vandals that inevitably hit these articles? No problem if this is inconvenient. Cheers, Moreschi 21:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Check out WP:VANDAL if you want to put "stop vandalising" templates on people's talk pages. If they keep going, then report the bastards at WP:AIV. Simple enough. Thanks in advance for the help: with an obscure article like Concerto you need all the help you can get. Cheers, Moreschi 22:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reverts...the vandals seem to have got tired for a bit. One odious bastard twice stuck in a promotional link to his business website, then tried to remove the warnings from his talk page, got cheesed off when I reverted that, and then vandalised my userpage, whereupon I told him via edit summary to fuck off. Anyway. Plagiarize away - I'm glad you think it's good enough to re-use. I don't know too much about Henze - though I remember seeing the Ashton ballet Ondine at Covent Garden that he wrote the music for and thinking how stunningly beautiful the music was. The wikibio might be vaguely helpful. Give me a bell later if you want me to check the article over. Cheers, Moreschi 19:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * He's just been blocked for 24 hours - and I didn't have to do a single thing. Great. Moreschi 20:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, and you have mail. As far as I can remember. BTW, if an article is patent nonsense, then you can tag it with - obviously without the nowiki tags. The good thing about that is then it actually appears in the CSD category, which doesn't happen if you use dbbecause. Then it only appears on the CAT:CSD page. Cheers, Moreschi 16:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Concerto delle donne
Thanks for lending a hand with Concerto delle donne! Mak (talk)  00:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

M
M Moreschi 19:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

M again. Moreschi 22:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Responded. Moreschi 22:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Replied. Moreschi 21:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Just in case you hadn't noticed. Moreschi 14:00, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

M Moreschi 17:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Replied. Moreschi 19:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Priceless!
This edit summary should be preserved for ever :-) Guy 10:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * LOL, that was funny. Nice thing to see on your first look at your watchlist in the morning. And maybe aquacruft? Ripariancruft? Anyway - Christ, the intellectual arrogance stinks, but to be fair it does look like Wehage more than it does Boisseau - good spelling and grammar, etc. Cheers, Moreschi 19:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Chicken and Rice article
Hey, I removed a bunch of POV including Dominance over other vendors, and cited many more sources for motability, tell me what you think.:) Valoem   talk  20:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Agrippina (opera)
It's kinda hacky (I added a superscript &amp;nbsp; on every line), but I THINK I've fixed the cast list woes. Vanished user talk 03:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Jean-Thierry Boisseau
This case is now closed and the results have been published at the link above.

Jean-Thierry Boisseau and other users affiliated with Musik Fabrik are banned from editing any article dealing with artists or projects listed in their sales catalog. Further, they may not add any such artist or project to any article. There is no restriction on making suggestions or participating in discussions on talk pages. Jean-Thierry Boisseau is placed on probation. He may be banned from any article or talk page which he disrupts. Any bans imposed under this decision may be enforced by blocking the offender for a period of up to a week. All blocks to be logged at Requests_for_arbitration/Jean-Thierry_Boisseau.

For the Arbitration Committee --Srikeit 06:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Smiley Award
Feel free to place this award on your user page, as a token of appreciation for your contributions. If you're willing to help spread the good cheer to others, please see the project page for the Random Smiley Award at: User:Pedia-I/SmileyAward

List of major opera composers
I must say, some good has come out of the Jean-Thierry business: We now have a strong article that does explain women in opera in a bonus section, and, as I tread the FLC guidelines, it ought to be a featured list in around 24 hours. Perhaps the women opera composers section is unnecessary, but it doesn't actually hurt anything. Vanished user talk 04:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Agrippina (opera)
Hi Folantin,

Please forgive the intrusion. May I ask you to explicitly vote with respect to the GA nom of Agrippina (opera), or to explicitly repeat your vote if you have already voted? It has been the subject of prolonged debate, and I believe it deserves closure.

Thanks, --Ling.Nut 15:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * On a related note, I've started the prose fixes at Swedish literature. The aim, IMO, is just adequacy, not brilliance. BTW I'm off to play tennis for a couple of hours and probably won't be back on-wiki until about 9 p.m wikitime. See you round. Cheers, Moreschi 15:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Featured_list_candidates/List_of_major_opera_composers
Could you have a look at this? Vanished user talk 22:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

knock knock
I shouldn't be yakking on Wikipedia. It's crunch time at school. I don't have time to help with Agrippina.

Because I am a college student (tho 40+ years old), I have access to many online journals. Would it be helpful if I got some journal articles and emailed them to you?

(cross-posting to Moreschi too) --Ling.Nut 18:35, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Claude Nicolas Ledoux
hello Folantin,

If you wanna help with GA, here you go. This person seems to share your opinions about the GA process. Perhaps your review would be more appropriate than mine: Claude Nicolas Ledoux.

--Ling.Nut 21:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Oops, obviously I was wrong to invite you to review that article. I had hoped you would make constructive comments, but your position seems to be that only a domain expert is qualified to review it.


 * Good luck in all you do! A response is not necessary; I am not adding your talk page to my watch list. Moreover, this will be my last comment here. As I said, I wish you all the best.--Ling.Nut 11:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

List of major opera composers
Weel, I'm not sure what to do, though: Should we ask the FLC moderator for advice? Vanished user talk 13:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm feeling a bit shy. It's User_talk:Rune.welsh. Could you ask? Also, it might help if you and Moreschi officially supported it. Vanished user talk 03:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

YEs, as far as I can tell, Rune.welsh is the moderator. No, I don't think the templates are obligatory. Vanished user talk 11:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Heh. Awfully odd you congratulating me, you who did almost all the biographies with Moreschi. Vanished user talk 22:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Congrats on all the hard work - it certainly has paid off! Remember all that gender bias nonsense, anyone? Cheers, Moreschi 11:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

List of important operas
I was thinking, what if we compiled list of all the operas mentioned in the Grove and Grove Opera articles on Opera? I was thinking it might help even out historical perspective, but it would probably be a huge task. Do you think it would be in any way helpful? Mak (talk)  17:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Agrippina
Thanks for the congrats...alleluia! What a palaver! I just backed you up on the relevant user talk. Say, shall I e-mail you some of the more directly relevant stuff Ling Nut sent me later on today? Thanks again for helping out so much with the GA mess. Cheers, Moreschi 13:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Mail sent. Best, Moreschi 21:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I saw one or two lists of 100-plus operas. Oh well..Cheers, Moreschi 15:39, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Mail. Moreschi 20:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Davies list
I don't want to go on about this on the Important Operas talk page, but did Davies really alter both the content and the title of his list between 1996 and 1997, when something called "New edition" seems to have appeared? Any mention of this in the preface or wherever? I can check in a bookshop or the public library if you don't have it to hand. --GuillaumeTell 18:16, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Maybe he got some sort of rocket from somewhere once the first edition had appeared? It still seems really peculiar.  BTW, I've collated Lists 1 and 2, and there are about 100 operas common to both, and about another 50 in each that don't appear in the other!  Best --GuillaumeTell 22:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Your input is requested
Your input would be appreciated at this Request for Comments. Kelly Martin (talk) 17:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

My RfA
Kudos for your comment. It's nice to see I am not alone in my POV-take on that issue.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The lists
Thanks. I am about to add The Rough Guide's contents (342 operas) as List 4 any minute now - barring accidents - so forget about that. Also, I have a spreadsheet Lists 1-4 covered - current state of play is: 564 operas in total, with 101 in all four lists, 67 in three, 135 in two, 261 in one only. I'll report this on the Talk page when I've got List 4 up. It's interesting to see that 68 operas aren't in Kobbé, and that, of the two lists that include Lully, each includes three of his operas, none of which are in the other list!

So far, no Peri and only the RG has Sullivan. I'll leave the Ox Illus (Peri but no Sullivan) to you, but I have my eye on the Naxos A-Z (includes both), and a couple of British-oriented Who's-Who-type sources which have indexes of operas. Not that I hold any brief for Sullivan, of course, especially as I don't know what I'm talking about in that neck of the woods. --GuillaumeTell 01:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Pastorale héroique or Pastorale héroïque?
I wonder which is correct - héroique or héroïque? The article has both versions at the moment. By the way I have added the article to the genre box. Best. - Kleinzach 18:38, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I have also added Opéra-ballet to the genre box. We will also need to look at the genre categries later. Opera ballet probably needs to be deleted (it only has le Villi now), and Opéra-ballets created. Also French lyric tragedy maybe needs to be renamed Tragédies en musique. - Kleinzach 18:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks again I have switched French lyric tragedy to Tragédie en musique. Hope that helps. - Kleinzach 20:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Message from Lini
I have just had a message from Lini:


 * Hi! Thanks for your note suggesting an article and sources related to the new Pastoral opera category.  I would be happy to create an article - but just to double-check - I see the previous message here on your talk page from Folantin, regarding the new article on Pastorale héroïque, which is almost the same thing as my "Pastoral opera"; however the operas that I categorized as pastoral are the very earliest Italian Baroque operas (as opposed to French).  My source for using this terminology is the New Oxford History of Music; the criteria for calling them pastoral is similar to that in the Pastoral héroïque article - "drawing on Classical subject matter associated with pastoral poetry".  The other sources that I have available to conveniently draw upon are Grout's History of Western Music and 15th edition Britannica - for Grove, however, I need to go to my public library and look at a print copy of it :) Anyway, let me know what you think regarding Pastoral opera vs. Pastorale héroïque - I will create the Pastoral opera article, with sources to back it up, if you don't think it is redundant to the Pastorale héroïque article, which was created after your message to me, as far as I can tell.  Cheers, Lini 19:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I responded:


 * Thanks for getting in touch. This has all moved on a bit since my message and I think it would be best if I showed your message to Folantin who has been working on early French opera. (I am in France at the moment - but without any reference books!) - Kleinzach 19:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it would avoid confusion if you discussed with him how you think the articles should be organized? I think that might be best. - Kleinzach 19:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Looking forward to hearing from you regarding the desirability of creating a Pastoral opera article or not. (Or just adding a description on the category page.) I have also come across and followed the related discussion on User talk:Makemi's Archive6 page.  If it will help, I will refer to my sources for as clear a definition of a pastoral opera as possible, and post it as part of one of these discussions (or on the talk page of the category).  Thanks in advance for your consideration and time in coming up with a reply!  And, for the record, I am a "her" :) Cheers, Lini 04:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Winton Dean
Is he dead yet? Grove doesn't say. If the date of birth is correct in Grove, he's getting on a bit, but I can't seem to find anything that would indicate mortality. If you could give me definite info one way or the other, that would be great. Cheers, Moreschi 21:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I wound up delinking the name "Winton Dean" from some list of Emmy Awards - someone had put in a fine performance as James Dean's dental technician father - as it went to my musicologist article. Here come the cries of snobbery...Cheers, Moreschi 22:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Huge congrats on French opera - it's very, very good stuff. I'll do a few more revisions - quite understandable if you don't want to see it for a while. BTW, have you seen WP:SCISSORS? Cheers, Moreschi 14:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * See you around at WP:SCISSORS - I've already joined up. I'll just add a few more cites to the lede and then give it rest and get back on with Orfeo. Cheers, Moreschi 14:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

French plurals
A non-urgent question: As you may know genre categories have to be plural. At the moment we have the following categories:


 * Category:Opéra bouffes
 * Category:Opéra comiques
 * Category:Opéra féeries

Are they in the correct form? Or should it be 'Opéras bouffes', 'Opéras comiques', 'Opéras féeries', and also 'Opéras-ballets'? Do you know, I wonder? (I imagine Category:Tragédies en musique is correct. No?)

Best. - Kleinzach 21:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. That also poses the question of when to use the hyphen, especially as the French themselves seem so inconsistent. On top of that it is difficult changing category names. No pages have to be created and the old ones have to go through the Cfd process. Anyway - when you have time - perhaps we can work out the most appropriate category names. - Kleinzach 12:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposed pastoral opera article
Thanks for the input you gave on whether I should go ahead with this. I will create the article; I am rather busy in the real world for the next few days, including an out of town trip over the weekend, but plan to get to it sometime next week. We will see what I can come up with from the sources that I have, and then decide its validity from there. I do think that both the category and the proposed article are reasonable, but I also respect the process of group consensus within a project, and I would have no hard feelings if the end result is that the group disagrees with the terminology, and my contributions would need to be renamed, merged, or deleted. But, that's getting ahead of things for now; I'll give it a go, and then you all can decide.

On another note, as a Wikipedia user and new member of the Opera project, I will also say - thank you for all your hard work on French opera! Cheers, Lini 19:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Your excellent work on French Opera
I've been reading Wikipedia now for about 4 years, and I've read a lot of articles. I found the one you did major revisions to possibly the most interesting thing I've read this year. You are a wonderful contributor and I hope you write a lot more in this manner. -- Elar  a  girl  Talk 22:48, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Fairy opera
Please check out the talk at WP:WPO - you're probably better qualified to discuss this sort of thing than me. Cheers, Moreschi 18:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Mail. Moreschi Deletion! 22:16, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

XMAS gift
Lots of good intentions flying around, but not much in the way of useful stuff. Here is a nice template I found to organize your ever-growing collections of awards :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Pastoral opera article – started in sandbox
I've been slow about it, but to show you that I was in good faith regarding intentions to create this article - please see the sandbox start I've made, (little more than an introductory sentence and an outline at this point) here. Real life is still busy; I hope to work on the article a little bit at a time; I will create a page for it in the main article space once it's substantial enough to be at least a stub. Cheers, Lini 14:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Quick note
Hands off Les surprises de l'Amour, please! I'm just finishing this one off. Bravo on all the work on Rameau, you're on a roll. It's great to see all those redlinks turn blue. Cheers, Moreschi Deletion! 17:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Quick question: would you mind giving User:Moreschi/Savage Bio a copy-edit when you have sometime either this evening or tomorrow morning? It's going into the mainspace tomorrow and I want it looking spick and span. I'm not sure all of my grammar is perfect:) And if you've got any content you can add, that would be great. If you could give this the once-over I'd be much obliged. Cheers, Moreschi Deletion! 21:59, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks greatly. Psst, nobody's meant to know, but I'm going to try for DYK with this one. Cheers, Moreschi Deletion! 22:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Heh heh. Have you seen Universal Century Mobile weapons? Just click the link. Keep us busy for years, that will. Cheers, Moreschi Deletion! 19:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm off on a mass PROD campaign. If that fails then mass AFDs. Cheers, Moreschi Deletion! 19:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Replied. Moreschi Deletion! 19:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and my AFD noms are over for the day. I've just realised how big the log for today is and any more it'll just explode. The AFds will get lost. I'll be back tomorrow with renewed vigour with yet more, quite possibly doing things three at a time for the more shocking examples, so as not to overly tax everyone's patience. Just writing my reply to the mail. Cheers, Moreschi Deletion!

Userspace Folantin2
You realise that this has been created in the article space, and not your userspace? If you want to create something in your userspace, call it User:Folantin/[something], for example User:Folantin/Sandbox. If this has been mistakenly created, as I suspect it has, you can delete it with the tag. J Milburn 15:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Rock Trial
This article has been proposed for deletion. You can vote at Articles for deletion/Rock Trial. I believe that this is not notable. -- Ssilvers 23:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Template:Catholic-link
A deletion discussion in which you voted, that of Template:Catholic-link, is up for deletion review, where the template may be deleted or retained depending upon the review discussion. You are welcome to comment and/or vote at Deletion review. The key point of this discussion is whether the "default keep by no consensus" result was correct; discussion of the template itself is secondary (but may still be important). — coe l acan t a lk  — 04:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

La donna del lago
Out of interest, why wouldn't you create the article as La Donna del Lago? --Steve (Slf67)talk 09:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for increasing my knowledge of operatic naming conventions! --Steve (Slf67)talk 10:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad's RfA
Thank you for your support on my RfA, which closed favorably this morning, as well as for your kind comments accompanying your !vote. I appreciate the confidence the community has placed in me and am looking forward to my new responsibilities. Please let me know if ever you have any comments or suggestions, especially as I am learning how to use the tools. And I am especially grateful if, as you suggest, I'm the first candidate who actually moved you to visit the RfA pages. Best regards, Newyorkbrad 20:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

AfDs
Please vote, if you have an opinion, at the AfDs for:
 * Sinfonicron
 * Wobbly Dog Productions
 * Penn Singers
 * Empire Lyric Players
 * Montreal West Operatic Society -- Regards, Ssilvers

The list
Hey ho. Two-thirds of the way through. Thanks for all the help. Know what they called us at Wikipedia Review? The "Evil Twins" - amidst some other, more unpleasant, stuff. Do we get angelicised when the list gets FL? I wonder. Cheers, Moreschi Deletion! 20:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course, most of them are ex wiki-editors - wikifailures - who got kicked out for, amongst other things, wheel warring with Jimbo and having - well, if it was opera, we'd say modernist - conversations with adolescent girls. Sort of Siegmund and Sieglinde crossed with Marie and Wozzeck with a few legal complications thrown in.


 * It is, of course, a sign of my irrevocable dedication to evil that I recently came up with a diabolical plot to give Pollyanna manic depression. And how? She has to play The Glad Game for 5 hours per day at Special:Newpages without admin buttons and with a horribly backlogged CAT:CSD. Cheers, Moreschi Deletion! 10:09, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, I had to laugh at that. You saw that, yes? Someone suggested to me it was a disgruntled Esperanzian, which would just be the peak of irony. I'd like to take 1876 forwards, if you don't mind. Cheers, Moreschi Deletion! 12:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Just finishing off my section...Moreschi Deletion! 14:24, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Yep, I'm done as well. That's the annotations finished. I also need to fix my cites: I'll need to add who actually wrote the individual articles in Grove, but seeing as one fellow tends to do one composer, that may not be too bad. Yes, the wikilinks were certainly erratic, but that's easy enough to fix. Probably best to link each term just once per section: so link opera buffa the first time it comes up in 1800-1832 and then the first time it comes up in 1876-1899, but only link once per section. But I would imagine we're both heartily sick of the darn thing, and anyway after 309 annotations and 314 citations I think we both deserve a short break. XfD, here I come for a bit! Cheers, Moreschi Deletion! 14:39, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Replied. Moreschi Deletion! 15:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Spammy mail...don't blame me, the cabal threatened me with block if I didn't comply and pass it on :) Moreschi Deletion! 21:59, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. Moreschi Deletion! 11:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Replied. Moreschi Deletion! 12:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I've sent it again, maybe just wait for a bit. Moreschi Deletion! 12:52, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Lol, this gave me something to chuckle over. What next, I wonder? List of British Prime Ministers by number of abandoned tennis rackets mouldering in the cupboard at 10 Downing Street? Anyway, perhaps you might care to take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion#Articles_for_Review? Cheers, Moreschi Deletion! 20:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Heh heh, that was quite some "revision". It got reverted by Riana but the article is still fairly useless anyway. And yes, adding those article authors and page numbers is deadly boring. I can't face any more right now, I'll finish the lot off tomorrow. Then all we need is maybe some copy-editing, a few pretty pictures and we're off to FLC: and when we get that little star it'll all seem worth it and won't our WR friends by oh so jealous. O.K, and I'm packing it in, I need rest for the continued assault tomorrow. Cheers, Moreschi Deletion! 22:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

P.S - and how much, exactly, of this presidentlistcruft is there? Philippines, America, Canada - how many other countries have these lists? I foresee wikidrama in the making...oh dear. Cheers, Moreschi Deletion! 22:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

My word, check this horror out. And the history. That violated more policies than I have fingers. Criminy. And this listcruft business is just awful, enough to send a fellow into wikidepression, really. Ah well, it could be worse. There used to be a List of virgins, if you can believe it. I think standards for inclusion are definitely going up, so even if the worst offenders don't go now, they will in the future. Hope remains. Cheers, Moreschi Deletion! 18:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Not sure if I already told you, but you missed out one Viking page number reference at the list: it's cite 78. Virtually ready for FLC, IMO. Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 15:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Alright baby. It's time to rock and roll. Our turn in the stars. We're on. Moreschi Request a recording? 15:27, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:HistSource
Template:HistSource has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you.. This is related to the recent Catholic-link TfD. --Stbalbach 23:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

STTWbot
The bot is currently tagging only relavent articles covered or should be covered by the WikiProject France. Your comment is right, I will see how I can make the bot add the project template after the already existing header/templates on the talk page. STTW (talk)  11:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Source Canvassing
I've started a discussion about the phenomenon of "Source Canvassing" at Wikipedia_talk:Canvassing with the idea of coming to a common consensus about the larger issue and documenting it on that page. Any input or ideas you want to contribute would be helpful, thanks. -- Stbalbach 19:44, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Not to be pedantic...
but no fair use images allowed in userspace. See, point 9. Sorry. Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 17:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, and you might like to see my userpage essay on grandiose claims of notability, something we both know a fair amount about from our experiences a while back with our fabricating-notability friends. It's at User:Moreschi/My left sock.


 * Well, it would be fun to do the number on Paul Wehage, but there's no point kicking a man when he's down. Seriously, have you seen that haute-contre redirects to countertenor? Now that really needs fixing. Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 17:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yep, the haute-contres seem to have been high tenors - maybe with some blur with falsetto at the top - rather than outright falsettists. Y'know, we really should have pointed out at the time that WP:N requires that sources be independent of the subject. Boisseau's singularly unbought book - is the sales rank still zero? - supporting notability is completely worthless for obvious reasons. As for the rest...dubious at best. Certainly worth another look. Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 19:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Fairly important and urgent mail. Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 22:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Nice, easy review after the palaver last time :)


 * Actually, I stuck some stuff into my monobook this afternoon for easier vandal-reverting/CSD tagging and it makes things a hell of a lot quicker and more efficient. If you want to check it out yourself see User:Voice of All/UsefulJS, or maybe WP:TWINKLE. And you'll have some mail in a bit. Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 20:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I meant to send a lengthy epistle yesterday but didn't have the time, and may not for today either. Apologies. Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 08:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Read and replied. Moreschi Request a recording? 20:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Great addition to Catullus 2
Thanks for your contribution there. You mentioned on the deletion page that someone else might help with that -- if there's some area I can help with, I'd be happy to. I don't have access to academic libraries, but if you think something's out there that can be found on the Web, just say so. I saw something about a Byron poem and perhaps some things (translations, I think) in the 20th century, although I'm not sure they're connected to this particular poem. Again, thanks. Noroton 13:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

A message I think is for you
Alakazam, who's new, left this message just beneath yours in my talk page. I'm not sure if he thought I had written your message or if he thought you'd see it there, anyway, here's your original message and his response (I'm leaving him a message telling him I've reposted this here):


 * My pleasure. I only have limited access to academic libraries too at the moment but I do have Quinn, who can be used to reference many things in the article. Quinn briefly mentions the poem as being inspired by a couple of Hellenistic epigrams by Meleager of Gadara (not one of Wikipedia's fuller articles that, by the way). I suspect Anyte might be relevant too. The trouble is, unless you have a reliable source saying so, this constitutes original research. There is a poem by George Gascoigne ("Of all the birds that I do know/Philip the Sparrow hath no peer") which is almost certainly influenced by Catullus 2 but I can't find a critic saying so. You might find a translation by a notable English poet though. I think Richard Lovelace translated quite a few poems by Catullus. Cheers. --Folantin 14:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I use Daniel Garrison and some online sites for my references. If you'd like to type up the Quinn's viewpoint then, that will lead to some neutrality and potential discussions about scholarly debates. if you are interested in working on the WikiBooks project of Catullus, then let me know and we could sort soemthing out - perhaps a division of the work load and some standard templates. Let me know what you think. Email me if you like? Alakazam138 14:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Best, Noroton 19:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Template:MEA-expand
I changed the instructions to read "Do not link to external sources" and left a note on the templates talk page. We'll see what happens. -- Stbalbach 14:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Catullus
I think that would be very helpful. I'm most interestd in the actual poems themselves, although I do know about Catullus' influences on other poets in a vague sense. If you only want to add tht sort of thing I think it would make a great edition to the Textbook. I'll see if Noroton is interested too. The late reply is due to the fact that I was on holiday in Berlin. Good to be back, and thanks for your interest. Alakazam138 14:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

RfA thanks
Hi, Folantin, I just wanted to thank you for your support on my RfA, which was successful with a final tally of 61/0/2. It's always great to get support from a fellow opera fan. I'm also honored that you like my work here, and I hope you will also like my conduct as an administrator. If you have any comments about my use of the tools I would be glad to hear from you on my talk page. Thanks again! Heimstern Läufer 06:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

More RfA Thanks
 It's been a week since my recent request for adminship passed, and since I haven't managed to delete the Main Page or indef-block Jimbo - yet - I figure it's safe to send these out. Thanks a lot, Folantin, for participating in my RfA; I hope to do a good job. If you see me doing something wrong, need help, or just want to have a chat, please don't hesitate to drop by :) – riana_dzasta 07:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Featured
Check it out. Who now will stop The Evil Twins? Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 18:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Heh heh
I like it. Lol! Great edit summaries :) Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 10:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Dear dear. Great early-morning laugh :) Actually, I sort of feel the cat should be renamed to distinguish between those who died in these vicious Goth-music turf wars and those who got bumped off a few centuries ago. Probably not, better to keep the potential for comedy :) Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 10:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Read and replied. Moreschi Request a recording? 12:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Orlando Furioso
Hello, no problem at all. Your revised plot summary is much more coherent than my short, off the top of my head one. I wouldn't want to describe every story within the book, because that could potentially rival the length of the work itself! Thanks for your hard work! -- Kyok o  16:53, 24 March 2007 (UTC)